Grade the OL

[TakeYouToTasker]

On ‎06‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 6:38 PM, GreggTX said:

Grade our OL as a whole. This is for run blocking and pass protection combines ability.

 

Grade them based on what?

[KingRex]

From my several decades of observing what works and what doesn't it is crystal clear to me that OL performance is way more about is much more about the whole of the unit rather than a mere sum of the talents of the individual parts.

 

Meaning, that one can take a group of player who clearly demonstrated poor  or average at best performance previously (an example would be the 2000 NY Giants who I think had a great OL coach named Mouse Davis and was anchored by former Bills Glenn Parker - routinely berated and run out of town here and Dusty Ziegler- good player but left here when the Bills could not guarantee him a starting job at C- but Davis coached this group to an SB berth with the OL playing a key role protecting limited talent Kerry Collins at QB and road grading holes for the Tiki Barber led run game).

 

An excellent OL coach working in a solid but far from great OL scheme can even make the SB.

 

On the other hand, the 2008 Bills invested heavily in the OL (we took cap hits of over 5 million a piece on FAs like Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker and about 3 million on Melvin Fowler and also had the developing into a Pro Bowler Jason Peters on the OL.

 

Despite these individuals showing great real world market demand as individuals, this OL unit simply did not perform and ended up with a losing record because even if you look good on paper, the game is played on grass or turf and not paper.

 

How good is this OL?

 

We'll see whether there is good chemistry 6 games or so into the season until then I give em an F.!

[thebandit27]

Regarding the 2017 OL, I found this information from Football Outsiders interesting:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2018/which-defenses-depended-non-pressure-sacks-2017

 

"Tyrod Taylor sure likes to run around a lot and try to make something happen, and sometimes he just runs out of time."

 

43% of the sacks allowed by Buffalo were deemed to be:

- Coverage Sacks

- Failed Scramble, which refers to sacks where the quarterback just takes off to run and doesn't make it past the line of scrimmage

- QB Fault, which refers to sacks where the quarterback just drops the ball or trips over his own feet without being touched by the defense

Edited June 26, 2018 by thebandit27

[RocCityRoller]

On 6/24/2018 at 5:41 PM, 3rdand12 said:

can they afford to wait that long? 

 

Afford? No, reasonable expectation, probably. Given all the changed I'd think even adding a stud to OL, that the unit would need a while to meld.

 

Time will tell.

 

This is another reason why I see AJM starting the first half of the season.

[T master]

I think & hope that the worry over the O line is just worrisome fan reaction to the losses that have happened this off season .

 

The over all experience of those that have either been here like Groy & Miller or those that have been picked up like Bodine from other teams as possible replacements for the likes of Ritchie & E. Woods seem to me to be ample replacements for those 2 !!

 

Especially with Groy filling in admirably for Woods when he was hurt & being bigger than Woods .

 

I think the weakest link in the O line is the O line coach Castillo !! Sure he may be a good guy but was given a late spot on a SB winning team (i believe the Ravens)  & really hasn't done much to prove his greatness as a O line coach .

 

I believe that our previous O line coach that went to the Rams A. Kromer is 10 times the coach & think his blocking schemes to be much more to the strengths of the players on the roster then & now ...

 

As far as players though i think the talent for this line to be really good is there as long as the coaching & scheme can match with the talent available !! 

 

Oh & the fact that they need to find a knew RT to replace Mills !!

Edited June 27, 2018 by T master

[LABILLBACKER]

....always give an employee his evaluation before he begins work...

[C.Biscuit97]

Incomplete right now.  But I think we are going to play some boring, run 2 downs, super safe, take no chances offense.  This should limit how bad the oline can be.

[Not at the table Karlos]

Asst. O-line coach Vlachos said a couple times today that Dawkins is the best o- lineman he's seen. I'd take it with a grain of salt tho.

[auburnbillsbacker]

The Bills have one of the least talented and least proven lines in the league.  You will see draft picks and cap space used to fix it during the next off-season. 

[BigDingus]

Well we were a C+ last year, lost our 2 best players (3 if you count Glenn), so logically we've at least dropped a letter grade.

[billsredneck1]

On 6/24/2018 at 5:41 PM, 3rdand12 said:

can they afford to wait that long? 

no they can't. they have to establish a starting 5 early in camp. those first 2 games are critical and could play a huge role at the end of the season. we need to at least win one of them. thank god the chargers game is at home. if somehow we start 2-0, we definitely will make the postseason.

[Cripple Creek]

On 6/22/2018 at 6:38 PM, GreggTX said:

Grade our OL as a whole. This is for run blocking and pass protection combined ability.

Today? Before they’ve taken a snap together? When a position or three are still in flux?

[3rdand12]

40 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Well we were a C+ last year, lost our 2 best players (3 if you count Glenn), so logically we've at least dropped a letter grade.

But we lost Dennison, that negates the lost grade.

 

[Bill from NYC]

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 1:13 PM, billsfan89 said:

My grade is a D factoring in likely injuries, at best I can see the unit realistically being a C if everything lines up perfectly this unit could be a B but that's a lot of luck with injuries and a lot of squinting your eyes to see every player on the O-line having their best season. 

 

LT - Dawkins - I feel very confident here, probably the only position that I can have confidence in on the O-line as a whole. Situation grade (B+).

LG- Vlad/Wyatt - A huge mess, a subpar vet or an unproven low round rookie. That's not to say that a 5th round guard can't be good and start but its hard to project confidence. Situation Grade (F)

C- Probably the second position along the O-line that I can feel most confident in. Groy in my mind played well in 2016 when he stepped in for Wood and with Bodine as a starting option (although not a very good one but an experienced player) there should be a competent center in this bunch. Situation Grade (C+)

RG- Miller was an above average Guard his first two seasons. Last year he regressed big time under the zone blocking scheme. This year we ditched the scheme and Miller is playing for his contract. This is a toss-up as you can project in realistic scenarios that Miller has both a good and bad season. Situation Grade (C-)

RT - Mills is a piss poor pass protector but an above average run defender, Newhouse is a nice backup but not a starter. I suspect another year of Mills at this position which while not tragic (at least you get solid run blocking) is leaving a lot to be desired. Sittuation Grade (D-)

 

That's two spots LG and RT where you have major issues and another spot in RG where you are taking a big risk on player improvement. Even Center is an unsure set of options. That's not inspiring a lot of confidence. 

NFL defenses smell blood. It's hard to cover up even one weak spot in this game of matchups. Our OL is once again littered with holes and question marks. I am trying to stay hopeful but I have been down this road many, many times. I can sadly recall some of the worst NFL players I ever saw "blocking" for the Bills.

 

I am hopeful about the team now because of this draft but it seems like no matter who is running the show, we neglect the OL or at the very least dedicate resources to blockers who can't play.

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 5:41 PM, 3rdand12 said:

can they afford to wait that long? 

Of course not.

20 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Incomplete right now.  But I think we are going to play some boring, run 2 downs, super safe, take no chances offense.  This should limit how bad the oline can be.

And some Jauron ball on defense?    

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

38 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

NFL defenses smell blood. It's hard to cover up even one weak spot in this game of matchups. Our OL is once again littered with holes and question marks. I am trying to stay hopeful but I have been down this road many, many times. I can sadly recall some of the worst NFL players I ever saw "blocking" for the Bills.

 

I am hopeful about the team now because of this draft but it seems like no matter who is running the show, we neglect the OL or at the very least dedicate resources to blockers who can't play.

Of course not.

And some Jauron ball on defense?    

 

Theyve taken an ol in the past two drafts, bill.

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, joesixpack said:

 

Theyve taken an ol in the past two drafts, bill.

 

In 3 of the last 5 drafts (and 5 of the last 7)--including 2018--the team has spent their 2nd pick on an OLmen

 

The issue hasn't been a lack of willingness to invest, but rather that they haven't been able to stick with a single offensive philosophy long enough for a unit of 5 to gain any type of consistency together.  Of course, I'd be remiss in saying that their relative lack of attention to the RT position has been an issue, but then again, they drafted Kouandjio/Henderson/Dawkins.

 

I'm most worried about the RT spot this year than any other area

[billsfan89]

8 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

Theyve taken an ol in the past two drafts, bill.

 

They took a rookie in round 5 this year, that's not a major investment of draft capital in the position. But the Bills did invest a late 2nd in Dawkins last year which was a significant investment. Doing two trade ups in the first round (one for a QB which is always going to cost you more and eating a lot of dead cap was always going to compromise the roster in some areas. Our O-line and WR corps, in particular, were not able to be addressed due to having cleared out 3 of our 2nd and 3rd round picks to trade up for Allen and Edumonds. The D-line was where most of the team's limited free agency dollars went as well. 

 

To get your QB and add a premier young piece to the defense along with getting out of the cap sins of the past came at a cost of possibly handicapping the 2018 season. That might prove to be a worthy sacrifice as the team should have enough cap space come next season (69+ million with the ability to easily get that number up to 96 million. Or 91 million if you don't cut shady which is a more realistic number) without likely losing anything of value, a lot of the bigger contracts on the roster like Hughes, Clay, and even Shady if he dramatically falls off become a lot easier to cut with limited dead cap. Toss in another draft class and you could see the Bills really take that step up and fill some gaps and make the roster more complete. 

[3rdand12]

9 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

 

In 3 of the last 5 drafts (and 5 of the last 7)--including 2018--the team has spent their 2nd pick on an OLmen

 

The issue hasn't been a lack of willingness to invest, but rather that they haven't been able to stick with a single offensive philosophy long enough for a unit of 5 to gain any type of consistency together.  Of course, I'd be remiss in saying that their relative lack of attention to the RT position has been an issue, but then again, they drafted Kouandjio/Henderson/Dawkins.

 

I'm most worried about the RT spot this year than any other area

Good point in your comment about Bills and O line. When Bills brought in Mills and Ducasse i thought they were kidding, I really did. When it came to starting the season and Bills announced these two fellows i was jaw dropping astounded. and then pissed, and then confused ( were they that much smarter than the rest of Us ).
I still hold onto this confused anger.
 
Because i much like Bill have suffered more than enough under record breaking piss poor O Lineman the Bills have trotted out over the decades (!) i have little faith.

to Bill from NYC point.
It the product they keep putting out there>

Gee we had Kromer and Roman. and had a serious run game and decent PP.
Then we got McD and and a very rough go from the Right Side of that line.

 

all you folks who said Ducasse grade higher as last year went on ?
Don't care. reaching . straws etc.
Maybe as a back up. maybe.

and Mills PP ? frightening some games. i felt pretty bad for Tyrod and Nate Peterman

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by 3rdand12

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

They took a rookie in round 5 this year, that's not a major investment of draft capital in the position. But the Bills did invest a late 2nd in Dawkins last year which was a significant investment. Doing two trade ups in the first round (one for a QB which is always going to cost you more and eating a lot of dead cap was always going to compromise the roster in some areas. Our O-line and WR corps, in particular, were not able to be addressed due to having cleared out 3 of our 2nd and 3rd round picks to trade up for Allen and Edumonds. The D-line was where most of the team's limited free agency dollars went as well. 

 

To get your QB and add a premier young piece to the defense along with getting out of the cap sins of the past came at a cost of possibly handicapping the 2018 season. That might prove to be a worthy sacrifice as the team should have enough cap space come next season (69+ million with the ability to easily get that number up to 96 million. Or 91 million if you don't cut shady which is a more realistic number) without likely losing anything of value, a lot of the bigger contracts on the roster like Hughes, Clay, and even Shady if he dramatically falls off become a lot easier to cut with limited dead cap. Toss in another draft class and you could see the Bills really take that step up and fill some gaps and make the roster more complete. 

your post is quite reasonable as usual. Good points and likely how Bills are rolling it.
the bolded

 I know it is just how you phrased it : )

 

But McBeanes CHOSE to not address the Offense early in the draft. 
That is not a comment to criticise the choices !
 

 Bills decided to invest into the Franchise QB, ( and i am delighted they did !!!  )
But they clearly focused on Defense beyond that.

Next year .
embrace the process : )

 

the theme for the Bills should be honest
 

Next year we are going to kick ass. not this year though. beer prices reduced 

[BigDingus]

13 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

But we lost Dennison, that negates the lost grade.

 

 

Lol we'll see. The grass isn't always greener... We thought losing Rex our offense would improve too (since he was a "defensive-minded" coach) but it didn't. Losing Kromer was what really hurt.

[3rdand12]

14 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

 

Lol we'll see. The grass isn't always greener... We thought losing Rex our offense would improve too (since he was a "defensive-minded" coach) but it didn't. Losing Kromer was what really hurt.

no question about we do not know what the future brings and change is a calculated risk.

 I don't even have deck chairs on my beachfront. But i sure wish we had Kromer and Roman some games last year

[Rocky Landing]

I'm not going to vote in this, but my take?

Dawkins, LT- solid.

Mills, RT- might be much improved with a QB who doesn't stretch the pocket, and move around as much as Tyrod did.

Bodine, C- If McD thinks he's better than Groy, I hope he's right.

Miller, RG- I am cautiously optimistic that he will turn into a solid RG. He's smart, and I thought had a decent rookie season before being derailed by personal issues.

Ducasse, LG- Could there be a worse drop in talent than going from Gog to Duc?

[Bill from NYC]

22 hours ago, joesixpack said:

 

Theyve taken an ol in the past two drafts, bill.

In 2002 they used a first round pick on a lineman (Mike Williams). In 2009 (the year they traded their all pro left tackle) they used a first rounder on Wood, pick #28. Those were the first round picks that they used on blockers in this century. They focused mainly on rbs and defensive backs.

 

If you wish to defend this you should. I cannot and I find it disgraceful. Jmo.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

21 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

In 2002 they used a first round pick on a lineman (Mike Williams). In 2009 (the year they traded their all pro left tackle) they used a first rounder on Wood, pick #28. Those were the first round picks that they used on blockers in this century. They focused mainly on rbs and defensive backs.

 

If you wish to defend this you should. I cannot and I find it disgraceful. Jmo.

 

Contrary to your opinion, you CAN find good blockers outside of round one.

 

See: Dawkins, D and peters, J. First rounders should be used on skill players, not linemen (with the exception of DE)
 

 

Edited June 29, 2018 by joesixpack

[Bill from NYC]

5 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

Contrary to your opinion, you CAN find good blockers outside of round one.

 

See: Dawkins, D and peters, J. First rounders should be used on skill players, not linemen (with the exception of DE)
 

 

Well sure Joe, look at the heights it has taken us to!!!

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Bill from NYC said:

Well sure Joe, look at the heights it has taken us to!!!

 

You're acting as though taking blockers in round one is a guaranteed path to the super bowl.

Mike Williams was a sterling example of that particular bit of folly.

 

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, Bill from NYC said:

In 2002 they used a first round pick on a lineman (Mike Williams). In 2009 (the year they traded their all pro left tackle) they used a first rounder on Wood, pick #28. Those were the first round picks that they used on blockers in this century. They focused mainly on rbs and defensive backs.

 

If you wish to defend this you should. I cannot and I find it disgraceful. Jmo.

 

Greetings my friend...I hope you're doing well.

 

It's worth noting that the team spent 2nd round picks in 2012, 2014, and 2017 on the OT position, and also spent a 3rd rounder in 2015 (which happened to be their 2nd pick in that draft).  Again, it's not the lack of early investment that bothers me as much as it is that they allocated some of those resources poorly.

 

You and I both felt that the Kouandjio pick was destined to fail.  Meanwhile, Morgan Moses--who was selected 21 picks later--is heading into his 4th year as a starting RT.

 

I remember in 2015 thinking that Daryl Williams was the right pick in round 3, but they ended up with John Miller.  I said at the time he'd be a decent starter with limited upside, and that's just what he's been.

 

Extending Eric Wood during TC last year was a nice gesture, but ultimately a bad decision money-wise.  Had they simply let his contract play out, they'd be in the same situation personnel-wise, but would have an additional $8M in cap space that they could've used to bolster their front-5.

 

In short: you're right that the OL is a concern for the upcoming year.  I think that a creative OC would be able to scheme around it somewhat, but there's no question that a good portion of their $80M in cap space and 9 draft picks next offseason should (and likely will) be dedicated to bolstering the line.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, joesixpack said:

 

You're acting as though taking blockers in round one is a guaranteed path to the super bowl.

Mike Williams was a sterling example of that particular bit of folly.

 

The folly was drafting Williams, an overweight RT with a chronic ankle injury over McKinney, an excellent left tackle.

 

[Cripple Creek]

9 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

The folly was drafting Williams, an overweight RT with a chronic ankle injury over McKinney, an excellent left tackle.

 

Williams’ issues were related to desire. He didn’t appear to want to compete.

[John from Riverside]

5 hours ago, Bill from NYC said:

The folly was drafting Williams, an overweight RT with a chronic ankle injury over McKinney, an excellent left tackle.

 

Yeah that was a mistake....McKenney all day

[Freddie's Dead]

C, 'cause LeShady.  Way too many question marks to go any higher.  Incomplete or withdrawal would also be appropriate.

[JohnC]

On 6/28/2018 at 9:54 AM, thebandit27 said:

 

In 3 of the last 5 drafts (and 5 of the last 7)--including 2018--the team has spent their 2nd pick on an OLmen

 

The issue hasn't been a lack of willingness to invest, but rather that they haven't been able to stick with a single offensive philosophy long enough for a unit of 5 to gain any type of consistency together.  Of course, I'd be remiss in saying that their relative lack of attention to the RT position has been an issue, but then again, they drafted Kouandjio/Henderson/Dawkins.

 

I'm most worried about the RT spot this year than any other area

You are right that the line lacks the overall talent to be a good OL. Players brought in on the cheap such as Bodine, Newhouse, and Ducasse are essentially patchwork players who fill in. And as you astutely noted the constant churning of staff and systems make it even more difficult to get players to fit the systems that are a constant state of flux. 

 

When McDermott was hired his intention wasn't to simply the elevate the play of the players he inherited. It was to significantly tear the roster down and rebuild it to reflect his vision of how a roster should be constructed. In my view this is a four year rebuild job. In one year he has dramatically altered the roster and is continuing with his cleanse and redo process. So it is not surprising that a defensively oriented coach initially focuses more on the defense than the offense. 

 

Tyrod Taylor had unique traits that severely impacted the OL's ability to pass block. Thus a qb that can make reads and more quickly release the ball will in of itself help the linemen when they pass block. On the flip side because Taylor was such a running threat he forced the defense to account for him. That lack of running threat is probably going to hurt in the running game. My point is obvious that how the qb plays will impact how the line performs. 

 

My general point is that it is difficult to address the needs of all your units at the same time. It's nearly impossible to do. The best that can be hoped for with this line is for it to play competently. With some coaching and system stability that is all you can ask for right now.  

[Bing Bong]

On 6/28/2018 at 5:46 AM, Cripple Creek said:

Today? Before they’ve taken a snap together? When a position or three are still in flux?

yes today while 1 are 3 are in flux lol, response alone sounds like a D.

[GunnerBill]

On 6/26/2018 at 8:03 PM, thebandit27 said:

Regarding the 2017 OL, I found this information from Football Outsiders interesting:

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2018/which-defenses-depended-non-pressure-sacks-2017

 

"Tyrod Taylor sure likes to run around a lot and try to make something happen, and sometimes he just runs out of time."

 

43% of the sacks allowed by Buffalo were deemed to be:

- Coverage Sacks

- Failed Scramble, which refers to sacks where the quarterback just takes off to run and doesn't make it past the line of scrimmage

- QB Fault, which refers to sacks where the quarterback just drops the ball or trips over his own feet without being touched by the defense

 

I haven't gone through the tape play by play and counted but this feels in the right ballpark from what I saw over the season. 

On 6/28/2018 at 3:54 PM, thebandit27 said:

 

In 3 of the last 5 drafts (and 5 of the last 7)--including 2018--the team has spent their 2nd pick on an OLmen

 

The issue hasn't been a lack of willingness to invest, but rather that they haven't been able to stick with a single offensive philosophy long enough for a unit of 5 to gain any type of consistency together. 

 

This. All this. Just as Miller emerged as a upper half of the league RG two years into his career.... scheme change, struggles, benched. 

 

Dawkins came on really nicely back end of his rookier year last year..  so what do we do? Switch blocking scheme on him.

[ALF]

The hope is for Daboll to keep OL as basic as possible till they find the best combination of players to be in sync.

 

Final cut down from other teams , free agency and draft in 2019 . I like Teller at LG once he is ready and Groy back at C.

 

Miller back at RG in his type of scheme. RT is still the ? mark . Just keep Allen on the bench till the OL  can pass protect.

[T master]

I'd say a B everyone is freaking out with Ritchie & Wood leaving but i think the moves made in the draft & FA along with who they had on the team they will be fine given a bunch of reps .

 

Also finding a replacement for Mills would be a step in the right direction !! I don't know what they see in this guy but its something that most all of the folks out side of the Bills that are writers of different articles that i have read don't see that's for sure !!