Brian Daboll hired as new OC

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 hours ago, Bills Pimpin' said:

He did install his own offense, I don't think he ever intended not to and I don't think he ever told the head coach that he was not going to. I believe McD interviewed him and believed him when he said Tyrod could work in his system. Obviously Tyrod couldn't work in his system but at that point there was nothing that could be done. The bed was made. I do think Dennison tried to change some of the offense to suit Tyrod but I think you are right, he's wasn't a good enough teacher to make it work. And on top of that Tyrod wasn't talented enough to be even serviceable in Dennison's offense.

 

But all of that being said, they scored enough points to win enough games to make the playoffs and that is what I meant by managing the talent of the QB. Maybe that is not the right way to say it, maybe I should say he did an admiral job managing the offense. 

 

For McD to realize his mistake and make the change to Daboll so quickly gives me even more hope that he may be a very good coach for the long term. Assuming of course eventually he makes a good decision on the leader of that side of the ball. Let's hope Daboll is that guy.

 

Again: don't confuse the system with the plays that are called.

 

Tyrod worked within a WCO system under Roman.  Technically, Dennison runs the same system and almost certainly contains close variants of the same plays. 

The question is which plays stay in the 3 (made up number of) bulging 3 ring binders, and which plays get pulled out of the binder and put in the gameplan each week.

 

The earliest identified system mismatch was called out by several here in pre-season games:  the transition to a zone blocking scheme that did not suit the size and skillset of our OL.    It was also clear Tyrod was struggling to play under center, but this was excused by Denison as asking Tyrod to improve himself and not representing what would be called during games - except it did.

 

Dennison changed the plays he put in as the season wore on, with the two most significant changes (AFAIK, keep in mind I did not buy all-22 this year) after the bye week and after the Chargers game.  But he changed them, too little and too late and also failed to make quick enough in-game adjustments.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

7 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

not defending him , but when you have 2 RB's playing QB.....  how much more can one expect from a passing attack. 

 

Yeah - it was the same with alex smith, and with CK.  Im not sure what it would have looked like with someone like Brady... but I imagine if he had goff, wentz, bortles, whomever - he'd still run a ton of pistol, read-option/triple-option stuff and have his QB taking off.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

26 minutes ago, vincec said:

Most of his success or failure is going to depend on what the Bills do at QB. In a way I feel bad for these OCs that favor the running game. People bring them in when they have crappy QBs and then blame them when the passing game flounders. Heck, Roman had the #1 running game in the NFL and still got canned.

 

Do you really think Roman got canned because the passing game floundered?

 

I think he got canned because in his second season, he went overboard on his game planning, put in too much stuff that was too cute, and refused to take input from above, below, or sideways (OQC, scouts).  That is why, with the same playbook, the offense improved magically when he got canned and a guy willing to take those inputs took over.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Hapless Bills Fan

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you really think Roman got canned because the passing game floundered?

 

To be fair - he never really had a good passing game.  He got canned because his game management skills were crap.  If we got the ball down 3 with 2 minutes and no timeouts... there was a 0 percent chance of even tying it.

[YoloinOhio]

12 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Ha, well there you go. So, what? They scored 2 less times basically?

They actually scored 6 more red zone TDs this year, but had a few more red zone trips and fewer FGs. One site i looked at showed 3% difference and another poster shared something that looked like 4%... either way it’s irrelevant imo.

Edited January 17, 2018 by YoloinOhio

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you really think Roman got canned because the passing game floundered?

 

I think he got canned because in his second season, he went overboard on his game planning, put in too much stuff that was too cute, and refused to take input from above, below, or sideways (OQC, scouts).  That is why, with the same playbook, the offense improved magically when he got canned and a guy willing to take those inputs took over.

 

He was having the team prep somewhere like 50-60 plays for each game.  I'm all for game-planning and putting new stuff in for an opponent, but how many trap and power runs do you have?  Can't you just change the formations?

[BuffaloHokie13]

7 minutes ago, dneveu said:

He was having the team prep somewhere like 50-60 plays for each game.  I'm all for game-planning and putting new stuff in for an opponent, but how many trap and power runs do you have?  Can't you just change the formations?

We were prepping 80+ for each game. We only ran ~50 through the entire game, including duplicates.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, BuffaloHokie13 said:

We were prepping 80+ for each game. We only ran ~50 through the entire game, including duplicates.

 

That's an absurd waste of time preparation.  The receivers only ran like 3 routes - what were all the plays?!

[Wayne Arnold]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

What does that mean though? What is the difference between 25th in 2016 and 46th in 2017? Truly asking as merely listing the rankings dont tell any of the story. Did other teams also get better in the red zone while Bama stayed the same, which effectively pushed them down?

 

 

If everyone else is getting better and you're staying the same, then you're getting worse. This is competitive sports.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

8 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

If everyone else is getting better and you're staying the same, then you're getting worse. This is competitive sports.

 

True - they did lose a few talented players from 2016-2017, and Hurts is just... not a particularly good QB.

[Coach Tuesday]

55 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you really think Roman got canned because the passing game floundered?

 

I think he got canned because in his second season, he went overboard on his game planning, put in too much stuff that was too cute, and refused to take input from above, below, or sideways (OQC, scouts).  That is why, with the same playbook, the offense improved magically when he got canned and a guy willing to take those inputs took over.

 

So here is my theory about that, but it's just that - a guess: I was at the Thursday night Jets home loss after which  Roman was fired.  From the stands, you could see the dysfunction.  Playcalls were coming in extremely late, players weren't lining up in the right spot, and Tyrod seemed frustrated and flustered.  There were a handful of big pass plays that looked like they resulted from some kind of "playground ball" discussion in the huddle (or during a Tyrod scramble), i.e., they were made up on the fly.  I think Terry and Kim were embarrassed that the product looked that poor that on the national stage.  I think that led to a "come to Jesus" discussion with Rex, which led to Roman's ouster.  (Rex should've been on notice that he'd be next if the ship wasn't righted, but he didn't get the message or didn't care or know how to adapt.

 

I'm not saying the playbook wasn't a factor, it may have been.  But it seemed to me that the preparation and organization were lacking and that was the bigger issue.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

7 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

So here is my theory about that, but it's just that - a guess: I was at the Thursday night Jets home loss after which  Roman was fired.  From the stands, you could see the dysfunction.  Playcalls were coming in extremely late, players weren't lining up in the right spot, and Tyrod seemed frustrated and flustered.  There were a handful of big pass plays that looked like they resulted from some kind of "playground ball" discussion in the huddle (or during a Tyrod scramble), i.e., they were made up on the fly.  I think Terry and Kim were embarrassed that the product looked that poor that on the national stage.  I think that led to a "come to Jesus" discussion with Rex, which led to Roman's ouster.  (Rex should've been on notice that he'd be next if the ship wasn't righted, but he didn't get the message or didn't care or know how to adapt.

 

I'm not saying the playbook wasn't a factor, it may have been.  But it seemed to me that the preparation and organization were lacking and that was the bigger issue.

 

It wasn't much better on the other side of the ball

[PolishDave]

8 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

So here is my theory about that, but it's just that - a guess: I was at the Thursday night Jets home loss after which  Roman was fired.  From the stands, you could see the dysfunction.  Playcalls were coming in extremely late, players weren't lining up in the right spot, and Tyrod seemed frustrated and flustered.  There were a handful of big pass plays that looked like they resulted from some kind of "playground ball" discussion in the huddle (or during a Tyrod scramble), i.e., they were made up on the fly.  I think Terry and Kim were embarrassed that the product looked that poor that on the national stage.  I think that led to a "come to Jesus" discussion with Rex, which led to Roman's ouster.  (Rex should've been on notice that he'd be next if the ship wasn't righted, but he didn't get the message or didn't care or know how to adapt.

 

I'm not saying the playbook wasn't a factor, it may have been.  But it seemed to me that the preparation and organization were lacking and that was the bigger issue.

 

As I recall it went something like this:

 

Bills offense sucking.

Rex started fielding questions about playcalls getting into the huddle late

Rex publicly acknowledged it was a problem

Roman failed at getting plays called into the huddle timely in the very next game even after it was called out publicly

Rex - publicly humiliated that the problem still existed the very next game - fired Roman

 

I am sure it also entered Rex's mind that, by firing Roman, he was firing the one guy on the staff who could serve as a realistic interim head coach if the season kept going downhill and Rex ended up getting fired.

 

So by firing Roman, Rex made it much less likely for Pegula to fire Rex mid-season.      

 

And then Roman could be used as a scapegoat for why the offense was a failure that year.

 

And if the defense hadn't been absolutely horrible, that plan probably would have worked out for Rex.

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, PolishDave said:

 

As I recall it went something like this:

 

Bills offense sucking.

Rex started fielding questions about playcalls getting into the huddle late

Rex publicly acknowledged it was a problem

Roman failed at getting plays called into the huddle timely in the very next game even after it was called out publicly

Rex - publicly humiliated that the problem still existed the very next game - fired Roman

 

I am sure it also entered Rex's mind that, by firing Roman, he was firing the one guy on the staff who could serve as a realistic interim head coach if the season kept going downhill and Rex ended up getting fired.

 

So by firing Roman, Rex made it much less likely for Pegula to fire Rex mid-season.      

 

And then Roman could be used as a scapegoat for why the offense was a failure that year.

 

And if the defense hadn't been absolutely horrible, that plan probably would have worked out for Rex.

 

Yes, this too.  But I distinctly recall Tyrod running around for his life in that game and heaving it downfield on a prayer several times.  That was literally the entire offense.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Yes, this too.  But I distinctly recall Tyrod running around for his life in that game and heaving it downfield on a prayer several times.  That was literally the entire offense.

 

Bomb to goodwin kept us in the game and we couldnt stop fitz

[DrDawkinstein]

56 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

If everyone else is getting better and you're staying the same, then you're getting worse. This is competitive sports.

 

But you're giving me stat RANKINGS, and for a team that won the National Championship. Give us the real numbers and what they mean to you.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong. I cant say either way actually, because we have no real data to go by. Stats barely say anything to begin with, Stat rankings dont say anything at all. Too many variables, and lack of context.

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

They actually scored 6 more red zone TDs this year, but had a few more red zone trips and fewer FGs. One site i looked at showed 3% difference and another poster shared something that looked like 4%... either way it’s irrelevant imo.

 

Word. If that's the case then I'm not that worried about the ranking change.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

32 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

So here is my theory about that, but it's just that - a guess: I was at the Thursday night Jets home loss after which  Roman was fired.  From the stands, you could see the dysfunction.  Playcalls were coming in extremely late, players weren't lining up in the right spot, and Tyrod seemed frustrated and flustered.  There were a handful of big pass plays that looked like they resulted from some kind of "playground ball" discussion in the huddle (or during a Tyrod scramble), i.e., they were made up on the fly.  I think Terry and Kim were embarrassed that the product looked that poor that on the national stage.  I think that led to a "come to Jesus" discussion with Rex, which led to Roman's ouster.  (Rex should've been on notice that he'd be next if the ship wasn't righted, but he didn't get the message or didn't care or know how to adapt.

 

I'm not saying the playbook wasn't a factor, it may have been.  But it seemed to me that the preparation and organization were lacking and that was the bigger issue.

 

Fair enough. 

 

It's not necessarily either/or as well - perhaps the performance on the national stage was a "tipping point" that catalyzed something already "on notice" from the playbook issues.  "Making the boss look a fool on a big stage" is a major "awshit" in football as well as other endeavors (one of my theories about why Dennison got the ax).

 

Where Rex was concerned though, that is certainly pot calling kettle to fire Roman for late calls and disorganization.

[BillsFan4]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Ha, well there you go. So, what? They scored 2 less times basically?

 

13 hours ago, Lurker said:

Alabama's red zone scoring percentage:

 

2016:  89.2%    (58 of 65)        TDs:  40        FGs:    18                 http://www.cfbstats.com/2016/team/8/redzone/offense/split.html

2017:  85.3%    (58 of 68)        TDs:  46        FGs:    12                 http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/team/8/redzone/offense/split.htm

 

I'll take 2017, thanks...

 

[Coach Tuesday]

37 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

Bomb to goodwin kept us in the game and we couldnt stop fitz

 

Not exactly right.  That score "kept us in the game" because the offense was totally out of sync and couldn't sustain drives that would have kept the defense off the field.  There were hardly any first downs in that game by the Bills, IIRC.  Three-and-outs and long touchdown passes.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Coach Tuesday

[HoserE]

I like this hire...Solid.

 

Really good pedigree.  At Alabama he ran Saban's offense that was notoriously conservative.

 

At the end of the day we need to upgrade the OL and QB...Add a solid WR to compliment KB.  That will make all the difference on where this O goes.

 

He will surely be a much better play caller than the disaster that was Dennison, and that is where we will see the most improvement form the OC.  Run first or not, as long as there is some creativity and focus to the play calling I will be happy.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

32 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Not exactly right.  That score "kept us in the game" because the offense was totally out of sync and couldn't sustain drives that would have kept the defense off the field.  There were hardly any first downs in that game by the Bills, IIRC.  Three-and-outs and long touchdown passes.

 

I mean - score was closer.. We had nothing going on offense, and the defense was getting routinely beat - both darby and gilmore.

[Maine-iac]

Ryan's quote after the game:

 

"Obviously, we never expected this," Ryan said. "The Jets were a much better team than we were today, especially their offense against our defense looked like a mismatch today. You look for a difference in the game and that was the difference in the game."

 

When you score 31 you should win.  People complain about no TD's and when they are getting TD's they complain about something else.  The Roman offense was built to run the ball and hit deep passes.  It scored points.  It was ball control running and if the crowd the line and put men in the box you go deep.  It worked.  It's all water under the bridge but make no mistake about it, the entire time under Rex the defense was the problem.

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Ryan's quote after the game:

 

"Obviously, we never expected this," Ryan said. "The Jets were a much better team than we were today, especially their offense against our defense looked like a mismatch today. You look for a difference in the game and that was the difference in the game."

 

When you score 31 you should win.  People complain about no TD's and when they are getting TD's they complain about something else.  The Roman offense was built to run the ball and hit deep passes.  It scored points.  It was ball control running and if the crowd the line and put men in the box you go deep.  It worked.  It's all water under the bridge but make no mistake about it, the entire time under Rex the defense was the problem.

At the end of the day it is the NFL and teams lose games to other team that you wonder why they lost.

 

The key is

 

- Win your home games

- Win your division games

- Have a team identity.....understand where the big moments are in games that are needed to win games against good teams.

[Lurker]

2 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

If everyone else is getting better and you're staying the same, then you're getting worse. This is competitive sports.

Did you look at the stats I posted??   here they are again:

 

Alabama's red zone scoring percentage:

 

2016:  89.2%    (58 of 65)        TDs:  40        FGs:    18                 http://www.cfbstats.com/2016/team/8/redzone/offense/split.html

2017:  85.3%    (58 of 68)        TDs:  46        FGs:    12                 http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/team/8/redzone/offense/split.htm

 

So, six more TDs but a 4% decrease in efficiency is a big worry?     Perhaps you should Google 'obtuse'...  

[Wayne Arnold]

14 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Did you look at the stats I posted??   here they are again:

 

Alabama's red zone scoring percentage:

 

2016:  89.2%    (58 of 65)        TDs:  40        FGs:    18                 http://www.cfbstats.com/2016/team/8/redzone/offense/split.html

2017:  85.3%    (58 of 68)        TDs:  46        FGs:    12                 http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/team/8/redzone/offense/split.htm

 

So, six more TDs but a 4% decrease in efficiency is a big worry?     Perhaps you should Google 'obtuse'...  

 

It's not a "big worry". But in light of some of the red zone issues he had as NFL OC it's worth noting.

[Magox]

32 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Did you look at the stats I posted??   here they are again:

 

Alabama's red zone scoring percentage:

 

2016:  89.2%    (58 of 65)        TDs:  40        FGs:    18                 http://www.cfbstats.com/2016/team/8/redzone/offense/split.html

2017:  85.3%    (58 of 68)        TDs:  46        FGs:    12                 http://www.cfbstats.com/2017/team/8/redzone/offense/split.htm

 

So, six more TDs but a 4% decrease in efficiency is a big worry?     Perhaps you should Google 'obtuse'...  

 

So they scored Touchdowns 67% of the time with Daboll and 61.5% of the time with Lane?

 

Looks to me that they got better in the Red zone.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

31 minutes ago, Magox said:

 

So they scored Touchdowns 67% of the time with Daboll and 61.5% of the time with Lane?

 

Looks to me that they got better in the Red zone.

 

Shhh. Stop making sense. 

[YoloinOhio]

1 hour ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

It's not a "big worry". But in light of some of the red zone issues he had as NFL OC it's worth noting.

Bama’s kicker George Poppadoppolos or whatever his name is sucks

[JohnBonhamRocks]

2 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Bama’s kicker George Poppadoppolos or whatever his name is sucks

 

His name is Nick Papagiorgio.

[YoloinOhio]

3 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

 

His name is Nick Papagiorgio.

Apparently his nickname is “Papa-Nasty”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.montgomeryadvertiser.com/amp/712739001

[HoserE]

2 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

It's not a "big worry". But in light of some of the red zone issues he had as NFL OC it's worth noting.

They missed more FG's this season I believe.

[Wayne Arnold]

So when is the press conference? They waiting for Daboll to evaluate the offensive staff and determine who to keep first?

[reddogblitz]

5 hours ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

We were prepping 80+ for each game. We only ran ~50 through the entire game, including duplicates.

 

Marv's game plans contained 6 plays.

[vincec]

6 hours ago, dneveu said:

 

Roman was not without his issues.  Even in San Francisco he wore out his welcome.  The passing attack is just too basic - it results in a lot of sacks and is designed for scramblers.  A lot of verticals, hitches, out routes.  Safe stuff that doesn't result in picks.  If the reads aren't there you are supposed to just take off running and avoid turnovers.  

 

My big problem with him was the lack of a 2 minute offense.  That and it taking like 30 seconds to get a play call in so there was never any pre-snap motion, hard counts, and we'd get penalties.

I suspect Roman's passing attack would look a lot better if he didn't have Kaepernick and Taylor at QB.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

2 minutes ago, vincec said:

I suspect Roman's passing attack would look a lot better if he didn't have Kaepernick and Taylor at QB.

 

He had alex smith who's pretty accurate and it was still a bottom of the barrel passing offense.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

Is it me or just been way too quiet with Baboll hiring. Like heard nothing else on him or staff changes if any.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[vincec]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

He had alex smith who's pretty accurate and it was still a bottom of the barrel passing offense.

I think you're overrating Alex Smith. Even with the great Andy Reid, passing game guru, as coach this is the only season that the Chiefs have ranked higher than 20th in the league in passing under Smith. They love him so much that they just moved up to draft his replacement and will probably be looking to trade him this off season.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, vincec said:

I think you're overrating Alex Smith. Even with the great Andy Reid, passing game guru, as coach this is the only season that the Chiefs have ranked higher than 20th in the league in passing under Smith. They love him so much that they just moved up to draft his replacement and will probably be looking to trade him this off season.

 

Either way - smith/kaep/taylor all have different strengths and weaknesses... and yet they all operated basically the same offense.  Tight formations, out routes, hitch routes, nothing over the middle, read and run.  Nothing over the middle, limit turnovers, sacks are better.  Shotgun/pistol mostly, lot of read option and speed options.  

The 2 minute offense/playcalling issues were prevalent in San Fran too, so I think that's just who he is.

Edited January 17, 2018 by dneveu

[reddogblitz]

Chan

Hackett Jr.

Roman

Lynn

Rico

Daboll

 

This will be our 6th OC in the last 7 years. I hope we got a good one this time .

Edited January 17, 2018 by reddogblitz

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

Chan

Hackett Jr.

Roman

Lynn

Rico

Daboll

 

This will be our 6th OC in the last 7 years. I hope we got a good one this time .

 

Yeah - didn't totally hate Chan but feel he's overrated by a lot of people here.  I feel like as the season wore on people kinda caught onto his gameplans.  He also had a considerable number of stinker games for me to ever consider him a really great offensive coach.  Good guy for getting a lot out of... not a lot.  

 

Hackett - run run pass punt.  Next.

 

Roman - great run concepts, but like a total lack of anything resembling a coherent structured offense.  Too many penalties, late play calls, no motion, limiting.

 

Lynn - worked with romans playbook, and in general did an alright job trying to clean up the 2 minute offense and the penalties.

 

Rico - too many negative plays, and too cute.  

 

Daboll - ???????????