SWATeam Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 I apologize if this has already been discussed, I haven't been that plugged in due to the holidays. My understanding of the rule is that "breaking the plane" is only applicable at the goal line, correct? In the field of play- if a runner crosses the line to gain, and then retreats, the ball is spotted where the runner ends up. Unless of course his forward progress was stopped by an opposing player. On the play in question, the runner reaches out beyond the line to gain and then pulls the ball back. Shouldn't the ball have been spotted at the point where he pulled the ball back to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, SWATeam said: I apologize if this has already been discussed, I haven't been that plugged in due to the holidays. My understanding of the rule is that "breaking the plane" is only applicable at the goal line, correct? In the field of play- if a runner crosses the line to gain, and then retreats, the ball is spotted where the runner ends up. Unless of course his forward progress was stopped by an opposing player. On the play in question, the runner reaches out beyond the line to gain and then pulls the ball back. Shouldn't the ball have been spotted at the point where he pulled the ball back to? Everywhere but in NE, that is how it works yes. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, SWATeam said: I apologize if this has already been discussed, I haven't been that plugged in due to the holidays. My understanding of the rule is that "breaking the plane" is only applicable at the goal line, correct? In the field of play- if a runner crosses the line to gain, and then retreats, the ball is spotted where the runner ends up. Unless of course his forward progress was stopped by an opposing player. On the play in question, the runner reaches out beyond the line to gain and then pulls the ball back. Shouldn't the ball have been spotted at the point where he pulled the ball back to? Forward progress applies to anywhere on the field. Officials were correct to give the Pats a first down. Edit: you guys have convinced me otherwise. Edited December 27, 2017 by Wayne Arnold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWATeam Posted December 27, 2017 Author Share Posted December 27, 2017 1 minute ago, Wayne Arnold said: Forward progress applies to anywhere on the field. Officials were correct to give the Pats a first down. Was his forward progress stopped, or did he pull the ball back himself? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racecitybills Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 I believe forward progress applies when a runner is contacted. NE player went past the line and came back over it on his own- not touched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerJ Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 3 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said: Forward progress applies to anywhere on the field. Officials were correct to give the Pats a first down. The forward progress rule applies. However, there is still a question in my mind that there was conclusive video evidence that the runner wasn't already down by contact before he reached the ball across the imaginary first down line. I remember seeing replays from a couple angles that really should nothing about where the runner's knees might have been when he reached the ball out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLTbills Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 The bigger issue to me was this. In no replay that CBS showed did any camera angle show the first down sticks. They didn't even place the ball and freaking measure. Just automatically awarded them the first down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 7 minutes ago, TigerJ said: The forward progress rule applies. However, there is still a question in my mind that there was conclusive video evidence that the runner wasn't already down by contact before he reached the ball across the imaginary first down line. I remember seeing replays from a couple angles that really should nothing about where the runner's knees might have been when he reached the ball out. I don't think it should if you reached the ball out and pulled it back yourself. If it was knocked back by our team it would apply. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 18 minutes ago, SWATeam said: Was his forward progress stopped, or did he pull the ball back himself? 3 minutes ago, dneveu said: I don't think it should if you reached the ball out and pulled it back yourself. If it was knocked back by our team it would apply. Great question / points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 5 minutes ago, CLTbills said: The bigger issue to me was this. In no replay that CBS showed did any camera angle show the first down sticks. They didn't even place the ball and freaking measure. Just automatically awarded them the first down. One angle showed the marker on the ground at the far sideline but other than that nothing. And to the point about measuring, 100% agree. The video I saw looked like the tip of the ball might be close to where the marker was but they just gave it to them and didn't bother to measure was a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjt328 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said: Forward progress applies to anywhere on the field. Officials were correct to give the Pats a first down. Forward progress only applies if runner reaches a certain point, and then the Defense knocks him backwards. If the ball is pulled back by the runner on his own (before he is called down), that would be the same as him reaching the first down marker, and then running backwards. It was a crap call. Edited December 27, 2017 by mjt328 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDhill2 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 not sure how forward progress applies when you reach the first down and by choice go back behind it. If you interpret rules correctly it really is no different than a running back running past the first down marker and the retreating behind it to try and gain more yards. If tackled behind the line they did not gain the first down. Just another obvious instance that there may be too many rules or interpretations of said rules. (See homerun throwback or tuck rule) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 32 minutes ago, mjt328 said: Forward progress only applies if runner reaches a certain point, and then the Defense knocks him backwards. If the ball is pulled back by the runner on his own (before he is called down), that would be the same as him reaching the first down marker, and then running backwards. It was a crap call. Correct 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocbillsfan1 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Anybody have a video replay of this play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF Bills Fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 I'd bet if we knocked the ball loose when he extended it and turned it into something the refs would rule he was down and it would have been our ball on downs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joshin' Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 59 minutes ago, mjt328 said: Forward progress only applies if runner reaches a certain point, and then the Defense knocks him backwards. If the ball is pulled back by the runner on his own (before he is called down), that would be the same as him reaching the first down marker, and then running backwards. It was a crap call. This is one of the issues I had with the call. The other is the fact that there was no clear review to reverse the call based on where his knees were. At best, this was a poor call. At worse, clear favoritism for one team over another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) I'm amazed no one in the media picked up on this - haven't seen or heard one thing mentioned about it in the media that correctly points out the forward progress rule (making the whole did the point of the ball cross the line argument meaningless) and what a totally incompetent screw-up the call was The other play that isn't talked about is the first down gifted to the cheaters when amendola caught the ball a full yard short of the first down and the ref who was standing right there comes running up and incomprehensibly spots the ball a full yard from where amendola caught it (laying right in front of him) Edited December 27, 2017 by stevewin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 1 hour ago, SWATeam said: Was his forward progress stopped, or did he pull the ball back himself? He had a player on his waist. Forward progress rules apply. 1 hour ago, racecitybills said: I believe forward progress applies when a runner is contacted. NE player went past the line and came back over it on his own- not touched. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Watching live i thought the play was blown dead before he reached out the ball. That is why the refs were running from the outside to the spot while Lewis was still stretching out. Regardless those 2 calls at the end of half and the would be 4th down stop Buffalo seemed to lose focus and soon there after the game. With all the noise and talk coming form Buffalo still I am worried that they will be too emotional or ill prepared for the Dolphins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, SWATeam said: I apologize if this has already been discussed, I haven't been that plugged in due to the holidays. My understanding of the rule is that "breaking the plane" is only applicable at the goal line, correct? In the field of play- if a runner crosses the line to gain, and then retreats, the ball is spotted where the runner ends up. Unless of course his forward progress was stopped by an opposing player. On the play in question, the runner reaches out beyond the line to gain and then pulls the ball back. Shouldn't the ball have been spotted at the point where he pulled the ball back to? 3 hours ago, The Wiz said: Everywhere but in NE, that is how it works yes. The NFL screws up forward progress all the time. It is very common for them to reward forward progress to a player when they shouldn't. Most common example is when a receiver is coming back towards the quarterback in his route to create separation. He catches the ball while running back towards the line of scrimmage. He gets tackled several yards back from where he caught the ball. The refs spot the ball where he caught it - not where the ball is when he gets tackled - which is wrong. The receiver should not get those extra yards when he voluntarily retreated his field position by running towards the line of scrimmage in order to become open. Happens very often. Watch for it and you will see it. Edited December 27, 2017 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 It was definitely right to reverse that call; he had gotten the first down. Not even really debatable, actually. 11 minutes ago, PolishDave said: The NFL screws up forward progress all the time. It is very common for them to reward forward progress to a player when they shouldn't. Most common example is when a receiver is coming back towards the quarterback in his route to create separation. He catches the ball while running back towards the line of scrimmage. He gets tackled several yards back from where he caught the ball. The refs spot the ball where he caught it - not where the ball is when he gets tackled - which is wrong. The receiver should not get those extra yards when he voluntarily retreated his field position by running towards the line of scrimmage in order to become open. Happens very often. Watch for it and you will see it. Not really: they spot it where he caught because he's getting pushed back by a defender immediately after he catches the ball. What the officials do on those plays is the right thing. His forward progress stops at the moment that the tackle process begins. It doesn't stop at the end of the tackle process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: It was definitely right to reverse that call; he had gotten the first down. Not even really debatable, actually. Not really: they spot it where he caught because he's getting pushed back by a defender immediately after he catches the ball. What the officials do on those plays is the right thing. His forward progress stops at the moment that the tackle process begins. It doesn't stop at the end of the tackle process. You call that 'indisputable'? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 2 hours ago, Mat68 said: Watching live i thought the play was blown dead before he reached out the ball. That is why the refs were running from the outside to the spot while Lewis was still stretching out. Regardless those 2 calls at the end of half and the would be 4th down stop Buffalo seemed to lose focus and soon there after the game. With all the noise and talk coming form Buffalo still I am worried that they will be too emotional or ill prepared for the Dolphins. Playoffs on the line...they'll be ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: It was definitely right to reverse that call; he had gotten the first down. Not even really debatable, actually. Not really: they spot it where he caught because he's getting pushed back by a defender immediately after he catches the ball. What the officials do on those plays is the right thing. His forward progress stops at the moment that the tackle process begins. It doesn't stop at the end of the tackle process. The player is running back towards the line of scrimmage. He isn't getting pushed back by anybody. Half the time, defensive player contact doesn't even occur until the receiver has regressed two yards back. He is still given credit for those extra yards he willingly gave up to create separation. Almost never, does the ref spot the ball where the player is contacted first in those situations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, PolishDave said: The player is running back towards the line of scrimmage. He isn't getting pushed back by anybody. Half the time, defensive player contact doesn't even occur until the receiver has regressed two yards back. He is still given credit for those extra yards he willingly gave up to create separation. Almost never, does the ref spot the ball where the player is contacted first in those situations. I have honestly never seen what you're describing. They always seem to place it where the hit begins. If it were to happen as you describe here, then yes, it's the wrong call. But I don't see it. 5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: You call that 'indisputable'? From the other side it seemed pretty clear that the knee wasn't touching. This isn't the best angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, dave mcbride said: I have honestly never seen what you're describing. They always seem to place it where the hit begins. If it were to happen as you describe here, then yes, it's the wrong call. But I don't see it. Watch for it. You will see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, PolishDave said: Watch for it. You will see it. I will. I know what you're talking about, but I haven't seen it. Maybe we're watching different games and it happens all the time in the ones you watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: You call that 'indisputable'? That is right. It is inconclusive. Also he had his finger on the tip of the ball. The ball is always spotted where the ball is when the knees touch down with contact of opposition player. Except in break the plane goal line situations because when you break the goal line plane the ball is dead and play is over except if you need to survive the ground on a pass play catch. Edited December 27, 2017 by cba fan error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: From the other side it seemed pretty clear that the knee wasn't touching. This isn't the best angle. Knee wasn't touching..? He was ruled short of the sticks. You need indisputable proof that says he got there and the call on the field was short. There's nothing on video to show anything REMOTELY resembling indisputable evidence. That's supposedly the standard for reversing a call...not followed on this play or the Benjamin TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: I have honestly never seen what you're describing. They always seem to place it where the hit begins. If it were to happen as you describe here, then yes, it's the wrong call. But I don't see it. From the other side it seemed pretty clear that the knee wasn't touching. This isn't the best angle. Your last statement supports no first down. When he stretched he was being contacted by a Bill. Knee was not down yet and he was not being pushed backward. He then voluntarily brings the ball back to body short of the line to gain and then his knees touch down. No forward progress should have been given to the white line. He was not down yet and his knees had not touched yet until he had ball back into his body. Romo got it wrong also. he showed a still of knees off ground and ball extended to the white line. He failed to mention player was not down so he does not get that stretch unless break goal line situation. Edited December 27, 2017 by cba fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, GoBills808 said: Knee wasn't touching..? He was ruled short of the sticks. You need indisputable proof that says he got there and the call on the field was short. There's nothing on video to show anything REMOTELY resembling indisputable evidence. That's supposedly the standard for reversing a call...not followed on this play or the Benjamin TD. We'll have to agree to disagree. I had no problem with that reversal. The other one was ridiculous, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlonce Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 2 hours ago, jmc12290 said: He had a player on his waist. Forward progress rules apply. Correct. It is not correct in this situation. The NE player would have had to keep the ball extended and a Bills player would have to push the player back. This is not the case here. The New England back pushed the ball forward,like you would at the goal line and then pulled the ball back. There was absolutely no views that showed knees down,etc.Thats not forward progress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: I will. I know what you're talking about, but I haven't seen it. Maybe we're watching different games and it happens all the time in the ones you watch! Those situations don't happen all the time. The bad spot in those situations does happen all the time when that situation arises. Get me? The Patriots 4th down was not an example of this. The spot was correct unless the whistle had blown before stretching the ball out or unless his knee was down first. My only beef was that they reversed the call based on non -existent indisputable evidence. They probably made the right call though. Edited December 27, 2017 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, cba fan said: Your last statement that supports no first down. When he stretched he was being contacted by a Bill. Knee was not down yet and he was not being pushed backward. He then voluntarily brings the ball back to body short of the line to gain and then his knees touch down. No forward progress should have been given to the white line. If he's being touched (and he was in the grasp of a defender throughout the process), then the forward progress is where the ball got to at its forward most point before he comes down. Which makes it a first down. Let's do a thought experiment: how would you have reacted if the Bills were on the offense there and Shady wasn't given the first down? I personally would have been apoplectic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderingsquid Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 If the *pats want it, you "just give it to 'em" is the rule. No exceptions. This applies to plays on the field AND now replay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: If he's being touched (and he was in the grasp of a defender throughout the process), then the forward progress is where the ball got to at its forward most point before he comes down. Which makes it a first down. Let's do a thought experiment: how would you have reacted if the Bills were on the offense there and Shady wasn't given the first down? I personally would have been apoplectic. Shady should have been spotted where the ball was when his knees touched down with contact from a defender. Let me give ex: WR catches ball runs forward with a DB defender contacting him all the way to the 40 is contacted by pile of defenders and falls forward but not down and bounces backward staying on his feet. He then runs backwards 20 yards and is tackled. Where do you spot the ball? On the 40 or back at the 20? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, cba fan said: Shady should have been spotted where the ball was when his knees touched down with contact from a defender. Let me give ex: WR catches ball runs forward with a DB defender contacting him all the way to the 40 is contacted by pile of defenders and falls forward but not down and bounces backward staying on his feet. He then runs backwards 20 yards and is tackled. Where do you spot the ball? On the 40 or back at the 20? It depends ENTIRELY on whether the whistle was blown. If it wasn't, then forward progress hadn't stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: It depends ENTIRELY on whether the whistle was blown. If it wasn't, then forward progress hadn't stopped. ok then the 4th and 1 should have been spotted short of the line to gain. Thanks for agreeing. Edited December 27, 2017 by cba fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Funny thing is Gronkowski is holding during that play too. Go look at it. Fistful of Jersey manhandling the much smaller Poyer. Of course - no refs saw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 1 minute ago, cba fan said: ok then the 4th and 1 should have been short of the line to gain. How so? The issue wasn't the whistle; it was the ball placement. They're separate issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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