dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 It was definitely right to reverse that call; he had gotten the first down. Not even really debatable, actually. 11 minutes ago, PolishDave said: The NFL screws up forward progress all the time. It is very common for them to reward forward progress to a player when they shouldn't. Most common example is when a receiver is coming back towards the quarterback in his route to create separation. He catches the ball while running back towards the line of scrimmage. He gets tackled several yards back from where he caught the ball. The refs spot the ball where he caught it - not where the ball is when he gets tackled - which is wrong. The receiver should not get those extra yards when he voluntarily retreated his field position by running towards the line of scrimmage in order to become open. Happens very often. Watch for it and you will see it. Not really: they spot it where he caught because he's getting pushed back by a defender immediately after he catches the ball. What the officials do on those plays is the right thing. His forward progress stops at the moment that the tackle process begins. It doesn't stop at the end of the tackle process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: It was definitely right to reverse that call; he had gotten the first down. Not even really debatable, actually. Not really: they spot it where he caught because he's getting pushed back by a defender immediately after he catches the ball. What the officials do on those plays is the right thing. His forward progress stops at the moment that the tackle process begins. It doesn't stop at the end of the tackle process. You call that 'indisputable'? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 2 hours ago, Mat68 said: Watching live i thought the play was blown dead before he reached out the ball. That is why the refs were running from the outside to the spot while Lewis was still stretching out. Regardless those 2 calls at the end of half and the would be 4th down stop Buffalo seemed to lose focus and soon there after the game. With all the noise and talk coming form Buffalo still I am worried that they will be too emotional or ill prepared for the Dolphins. Playoffs on the line...they'll be ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: It was definitely right to reverse that call; he had gotten the first down. Not even really debatable, actually. Not really: they spot it where he caught because he's getting pushed back by a defender immediately after he catches the ball. What the officials do on those plays is the right thing. His forward progress stops at the moment that the tackle process begins. It doesn't stop at the end of the tackle process. The player is running back towards the line of scrimmage. He isn't getting pushed back by anybody. Half the time, defensive player contact doesn't even occur until the receiver has regressed two yards back. He is still given credit for those extra yards he willingly gave up to create separation. Almost never, does the ref spot the ball where the player is contacted first in those situations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, PolishDave said: The player is running back towards the line of scrimmage. He isn't getting pushed back by anybody. Half the time, defensive player contact doesn't even occur until the receiver has regressed two yards back. He is still given credit for those extra yards he willingly gave up to create separation. Almost never, does the ref spot the ball where the player is contacted first in those situations. I have honestly never seen what you're describing. They always seem to place it where the hit begins. If it were to happen as you describe here, then yes, it's the wrong call. But I don't see it. 5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: You call that 'indisputable'? From the other side it seemed pretty clear that the knee wasn't touching. This isn't the best angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, dave mcbride said: I have honestly never seen what you're describing. They always seem to place it where the hit begins. If it were to happen as you describe here, then yes, it's the wrong call. But I don't see it. Watch for it. You will see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, PolishDave said: Watch for it. You will see it. I will. I know what you're talking about, but I haven't seen it. Maybe we're watching different games and it happens all the time in the ones you watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: You call that 'indisputable'? That is right. It is inconclusive. Also he had his finger on the tip of the ball. The ball is always spotted where the ball is when the knees touch down with contact of opposition player. Except in break the plane goal line situations because when you break the goal line plane the ball is dead and play is over except if you need to survive the ground on a pass play catch. Edited December 27, 2017 by cba fan error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: From the other side it seemed pretty clear that the knee wasn't touching. This isn't the best angle. Knee wasn't touching..? He was ruled short of the sticks. You need indisputable proof that says he got there and the call on the field was short. There's nothing on video to show anything REMOTELY resembling indisputable evidence. That's supposedly the standard for reversing a call...not followed on this play or the Benjamin TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: I have honestly never seen what you're describing. They always seem to place it where the hit begins. If it were to happen as you describe here, then yes, it's the wrong call. But I don't see it. From the other side it seemed pretty clear that the knee wasn't touching. This isn't the best angle. Your last statement supports no first down. When he stretched he was being contacted by a Bill. Knee was not down yet and he was not being pushed backward. He then voluntarily brings the ball back to body short of the line to gain and then his knees touch down. No forward progress should have been given to the white line. He was not down yet and his knees had not touched yet until he had ball back into his body. Romo got it wrong also. he showed a still of knees off ground and ball extended to the white line. He failed to mention player was not down so he does not get that stretch unless break goal line situation. Edited December 27, 2017 by cba fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, GoBills808 said: Knee wasn't touching..? He was ruled short of the sticks. You need indisputable proof that says he got there and the call on the field was short. There's nothing on video to show anything REMOTELY resembling indisputable evidence. That's supposedly the standard for reversing a call...not followed on this play or the Benjamin TD. We'll have to agree to disagree. I had no problem with that reversal. The other one was ridiculous, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlonce Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 2 hours ago, jmc12290 said: He had a player on his waist. Forward progress rules apply. Correct. It is not correct in this situation. The NE player would have had to keep the ball extended and a Bills player would have to push the player back. This is not the case here. The New England back pushed the ball forward,like you would at the goal line and then pulled the ball back. There was absolutely no views that showed knees down,etc.Thats not forward progress. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: I will. I know what you're talking about, but I haven't seen it. Maybe we're watching different games and it happens all the time in the ones you watch! Those situations don't happen all the time. The bad spot in those situations does happen all the time when that situation arises. Get me? The Patriots 4th down was not an example of this. The spot was correct unless the whistle had blown before stretching the ball out or unless his knee was down first. My only beef was that they reversed the call based on non -existent indisputable evidence. They probably made the right call though. Edited December 27, 2017 by PolishDave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, cba fan said: Your last statement that supports no first down. When he stretched he was being contacted by a Bill. Knee was not down yet and he was not being pushed backward. He then voluntarily brings the ball back to body short of the line to gain and then his knees touch down. No forward progress should have been given to the white line. If he's being touched (and he was in the grasp of a defender throughout the process), then the forward progress is where the ball got to at its forward most point before he comes down. Which makes it a first down. Let's do a thought experiment: how would you have reacted if the Bills were on the offense there and Shady wasn't given the first down? I personally would have been apoplectic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderingsquid Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 If the *pats want it, you "just give it to 'em" is the rule. No exceptions. This applies to plays on the field AND now replay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: If he's being touched (and he was in the grasp of a defender throughout the process), then the forward progress is where the ball got to at its forward most point before he comes down. Which makes it a first down. Let's do a thought experiment: how would you have reacted if the Bills were on the offense there and Shady wasn't given the first down? I personally would have been apoplectic. Shady should have been spotted where the ball was when his knees touched down with contact from a defender. Let me give ex: WR catches ball runs forward with a DB defender contacting him all the way to the 40 is contacted by pile of defenders and falls forward but not down and bounces backward staying on his feet. He then runs backwards 20 yards and is tackled. Where do you spot the ball? On the 40 or back at the 20? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Just now, cba fan said: Shady should have been spotted where the ball was when his knees touched down with contact from a defender. Let me give ex: WR catches ball runs forward with a DB defender contacting him all the way to the 40 is contacted by pile of defenders and falls forward but not down and bounces backward staying on his feet. He then runs backwards 20 yards and is tackled. Where do you spot the ball? On the 40 or back at the 20? It depends ENTIRELY on whether the whistle was blown. If it wasn't, then forward progress hadn't stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cba fan Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: It depends ENTIRELY on whether the whistle was blown. If it wasn't, then forward progress hadn't stopped. ok then the 4th and 1 should have been spotted short of the line to gain. Thanks for agreeing. Edited December 27, 2017 by cba fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 Funny thing is Gronkowski is holding during that play too. Go look at it. Fistful of Jersey manhandling the much smaller Poyer. Of course - no refs saw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 1 minute ago, cba fan said: ok then the 4th and 1 should have been short of the line to gain. How so? The issue wasn't the whistle; it was the ball placement. They're separate issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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