Peterman Arm Strength

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

It is true about Manning. In theory, the timing throws should increase YAC by the WRs. If he can hit them in stride or once they have a step on the DB. TT was often late and they would have to stop to make the catch or the DB right there for the tackle if they did make the catch 

 Exactly and that's what killed TT. He waited till his man was wide open so while the ball was in flight the db could drive on the ball. Giving the wr little or no opportunity at YAC. Sammy was touted out of Clemson as being an amazing YAC player. We never saw that with Tyrod. NP will throw and with anticipation. The ball will be there so our wr's & TE 's better be ready.

[SoCal Deek]

Arm strength will have zero to do with Peterman's success.  It will all come down to anticipation and making quick decision making.  Both of which have hurt Tyrod's career.  Unfortunately he'll have to sharpen both of those skills under live fire. I'm assuming he's waited his entire life for this moment!

[Kmart128]

59 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

Petermans fatal flaw is not his arm strength.   It's panicking under pressure.  

You do realize that Peterman was the best QB under pressure out of his draft class?

[BillsfanAZ]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Peterman has a lot going for him.  I think his number 1 attribute may be his intelligence and decision making.   The Wonderlic test presumably measures quick and accurate thinking.   Peterman had a 32 on the Wonderlic, not lights out, but among the best of the QBs coming out of the last draft, and pretty good overall.   Taylor had an apparently had a 15, and the biggest complaint about Taylor is decision making and a slow trigger.   We'll see about that.

 

The biggest complaint about Peterman, and something certainly worth worrying about, is arm strength.   I didn't know it, but at the combine they use a radar gun to determine the release velocity of thrown footballs.   Peterman was 49 mph, among the worst at the combine.   The best is in the high 50s, and just about all the name guys coming out of the draft are at or above 55.   So Peterman is 10-15% below where the best prospects are.   Over the years, very few guys are clocked below 50.    In fact, the only familiar name at the bottom of the velocity test is - Tyrod Taylor, clocked at 50.  

 

Now,  Taylor's interesting to me, because arm strength has not been a problem since he came to the Bills.   Did he improve his delivery and increase his delivery velocity in his four seasons at Baltimore?   I don't know, but if he did, that means that Peterman's major weakness could be addressed.   Brady also had a pretty poor deep ball early in his career, and he's improved that a lot.  Maybe there's hope. 

 

You can see all the numbers here.

If you watch Sports Science on Drew Brees, his velocity was 52 MPH every time on 20 yard passes. 

[Foxx]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Arm strength will have zero to do with Peterman's success.  It will all come down to anticipation and making quick decision making.  Both of which have hurt Tyrod's career.  Unfortunately he'll have to sharpen both of those skills under live fire. I'm assuming he's waited his entire life for this moment!

and he might not have that gaudy passer rating numbers that the OP so dearly loves but it will be all about that six inch space between the ears.

[dubs]

44 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm wondering, though, how much ball velocity at release matters in a practical sense.

 

The difference between a velocity of 45, 50, and 55 mph is 22,24.4, or 26.9 yds/s.  This means on a 20 yard throw, a differene between 0.74,0.81, and 0.91 seconds from the QB's hand to the WR.  I'm going to bet that difference of less than 2/10 of a second is going to be dwarfed by differences in how long it takes a WR to run the route in different field conditions or against different defenders, how long it takes the QB to make a decision, and how long his windup takes.

 

Maybe it matters.  Or maybe it doesn't

 

 

 

I am not sure if this pertains to NP or not, but I think generally it does matter.  Think of all the times that a defender barely misses an INT or a tip because the ball just beats the defender.  Also, I would think that the longer it takes, the more the QB is going to need to anticipate and throw early.  Just a guess though.

[Juice_32]

16 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I had Peterman as a late 2nd/early 3rd round prospect. I was pleasantly surprised when I checked my phone and saw the Bills had nabbed him at the end of the 5th round. Reading this scouting report I don’t understand how a QB with these traits gets taken so late, while a “big arm, big body” QB like Kizer gets taken in the 2nd. Then again NFL scouts are consistently awful at their jobs so I guess it’s not a surprise but you’d think they would learn from past mistakes.

I was shouting for him after the second. It's funny how the project guys almost always have huge arms and teams think they can turn them into an actual QB. How many of them ever work out though? NP has almost every trait other than the big arm. I like that we took a flyer on a kid who actually understands how to play the position at this level.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

If you watch Sports Science on Drew Brees, his velocity was 52 MPH every time on 20 yard passes. 

Was that the maximum speed that he was capable of or was that the speed at which he throws 20 yard passes?    If that's his maximum speed, then I'll agree that arm speed isn't a problem for Peterman.  But I'd guess that Brees dials himself back on 20 yard passes, so he isn't using his full motion.   Peterman has to use his full motion to get to 52.   

 

Who knows?   All we can do is watch the guy play and see how he does.   He's not going to fail because of arm strength.    But he may be limited by it. 

[Foxx]

1 minute ago, dubs said:

 

I am not sure if this pertains to NP or not, but I think generally it does matter.  Think of all the times that a defender barely misses an INT or a tip because the ball just beats the defender.  Also, I would think that the longer it takes, the more the QB is going to need to anticipate and throw early.  Just a guess though.

there are many intangibles that come into play here, arm strength is only one part of the equation. there is also the window that he is throwing into. how far away are the defenders on the window? are the defenders even looking into the backfield when the throw is being made. is it a back shoulder throw. is he throwing to a spot. 

 

many many factors in the equation at hand. arm strength is one. the six inch space between the ears being the most important.

[SoCal Deek]

I think people are confusing arm strength with a compact throwing motion and a quick release.  They are not the same thing.  The latter two are far more important than 'arm strength'.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, Juice_32 said:

I was shouting for him after the second. It's funny how the project guys almost always have huge arms and teams think they can turn them into an actual QB. How many of them ever work out though? NP has almost every trait other than the big arm. I like that we took a flyer on a kid who actually understands how to play the position at this level.

I agree.   They'll draft a guy who's dumb as a rock if he has a big arm, but they hem and haw about a guy who shows brains, decision making and leadership because he's too small.  

[dubs]

Just now, Foxx said:

there are many intangibles that come into play here, arm strength is only one part of the equation. there is also the window that he is throwing into. how far away are the defenders on the window? are the defenders even looking into the backfield when the throw is being made. is it a back shoulder throw. is he throwing to a spot. 

 

many many factors in the equation at hand. arm strength is one. the six inch space between the ears being the most important.

I agree!!

 

 

[BobbyC81]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

Interesting comments.  Thanks.  Particularly interesting that Peterman's number was corrected to 53.   No one gave a link, but I'll take it. 

 

To say arm strength doesn't matter is just nonsense.   It absolutely matters.   It matters on deep balls, because the guys with weaker arms have to use their bodies more to get the ball there on time, and more body motion generally affects accuracy negatively.   It also matters on the shorter line drive throws for the same reason.  

 

Pennington would have been an NFL star if he had arm strength.  He was dealy accurate, and he was smart, but defenses knew he wasn't going to hurt them deep, and limited his effectiveness.  

 

Interesting comments from several of you about guys improving their arm strengthj with, I suppose, coaching, training and practice. 

 

Finally, ball velocity IS what it's all about.   The higher the initial velocity, the faster the ball gets there and the longer it will go.   It's basic physics.    If I throw it 10% faster than you, the ball is going to go 10% farther; if we're throwing the same distance, mine will get there 10% faster.  

 

I remember Pennington playing in windy late season games in Buffalo and the wind severely affecting his throws. 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, LittleJoeCartwright said:

 

I remember Pennington playing in windy late season games in Buffalo and the wind severely affecting his throws. 

Well we should be OK then!  It's supposed to be a beautiful day in Los Angeles on Sunday.

Next!

[Bangarang]

Arm strength is a bit overrated I think. Give me a guy with an average arm that is smart, accurate and knows where to go with the football over a guy with a cannon and athleticism but not much else.

 

i don’t know think Peterman’s arm will be a major issue especially in this offense but that could obviously change.

[Big Turk]

other places have him at 53/53

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

I am not sure if this pertains to NP or not, but I think generally it does matter.  Think of all the times that a defender barely misses an INT or a tip because the ball just beats the defender.  Also, I would think that the longer it takes, the more the QB is going to need to anticipate and throw early.  Just a guess though.

 

But we agree that has to do with throw placement and adjusting the timing for the WR, not just with the velocity of the throw, right?

[Eastcoastlegacy]

Not to mention this for anything other than his physical attributes, but when you look at a player like Colin Kaepernick.  Someone with seemingly unlimited arm strength (59mph according the the OP's site), every throw under 20 yards was a laser.  Sure, maybe he can throw the ball through cement at 50 yards, but how often do you see a play that is ruined by an excessively thrown pass?  Or a ball fired through the receivers hands and into the defender's? I think many have made the point that arm strength among pros is much less important as an absolute factor than a QB's ability to properly time his throws, based on his ability.  We will see on Sunday.

[HappyDays]

34 minutes ago, Juice_32 said:

I was shouting for him after the second. It's funny how the project guys almost always have huge arms and teams think they can turn them into an actual QB. How many of them ever work out though? NP has almost every trait other than the big arm. I like that we took a flyer on a kid who actually understands how to play the position at this level.

 

People say drafting QBs is a crap shoot but that isn’t exactly right. Look at Deshone Kizer’s scouting report:

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/deshone-kizer?id=2557983

 

Strengths:

 

Quote

Big quarterback with a big arm. Can make all of the throws. Has step and crank power to drive throws into the seams. Has the arm talent and willingness to challenge safeties on both intermediate and deep throws. Looks the part with thick frame to withstand NFL punishment.

 

Weaknesses:

 

Quote

Gets stuck on primary read missing out on early openers around field. May not have eyes or compact release to spot and hit flashing targets. Can be too reliant upon arm strength over mechanics. Wants open throwing window rather than operating with early anticipation. Can improve in leading receivers and throwing stationary targets open. Too hesitant.

Showed dreadful lapses in judgement that lead to interceptions.

 

 

That reads like a mix of the worst traits of EJ Manuel and Tyrod Taylor. I don’t need to watch a second of film to know that is not a good QB prospect. But teams see that report next to Peterman’s and think “oh we can fix this guy’s inaccuracy and poor decision making no problem! But fix this other guy’s arm strength? Not possible.” It’s nuts.

Edited November 16, 2017 by HappyDays

[Figster]

29 minutes ago, dubs said:

 

I am not sure if this pertains to NP or not, but I think generally it does matter.  Think of all the times that a defender barely misses an INT or a tip because the ball just beats the defender.  Also, I would think that the longer it takes, the more the QB is going to need to anticipate and throw early.  Just a guess though.

The ability to drop footballs into a WR with touch and pin point accuracy is more important then gunning footballs in on a rope in my humble opinion.

 

 

[kota]

Go to BB.com and look at the practice video after Peterman was announced as starter.  Tyrod and him are doing drills.  They were throwing outs to WR's.  The ball basically got there at the same time.  So if you were happy with Tyrod's Arm Strength you should be happy with Peterman's.  

Besides he looks bigger than he did earlier this year.  I am sure he throws it much faster now.  

 

Nothing to worry about.

[GoBills808]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

People say drafting QBs is a crap shoot but that isn’t exactly right. Look at Deshone Kizer’s scouting report:

 

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/deshone-kizer?id=2557983

 

Strengths:

 

 

 

 

Weaknesses:

 

 

 

 

That reads like a mix of the worst traits of EJ Manuel and Tyrod Taylor. I don’t need to watch a second of film to know that is not a good QB prospect. But teams see that report next to Peterman’s and think “oh we can fix this guy’s inaccuracy and poor decision making no problem! But fix this other guy’s arm strength? Not possible.” It’s nuts.

I actually think Kizer is going to be a good QB eventually. 

[Figster]

13 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But we agree that has to do with throw placement and adjusting the timing for the WR, not just with the velocity of the throw, right?

I'll agree with you

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Eastcoastlegacy said:

 I think many have made the point that arm strength among pros is much less important as an absolute factor than a QB's ability to properly time his throws, based on his ability.  

This is nonsense.   There are no star QBs who don't have strong arms.   

 

Why do you think people describe good QBs as guys who "can make all the throws"?   What do you think it means?   It means he can throw short, throw deep, throw on a line, throw with touch, complete the 15-yard sideline pattern without hanging the ball in the air for the corner to pluck it.   You can't "make all the throws" if you don't have a strong arm.  

[BadLandsMeanie]

56 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You may be right about short balls over the middle, but I don't think you're right about 10 yard out patterns.   They throw those with as much velocity as possible. 

 

As for the arc of the ball, you're actually wrong about that.   Wind resistance slows down all ball proportionately, so, the ball that is 10% faster coming out is slower, but still 10% faster than the ball that was slow coming out.   In fact, it's worse that.  The guy with the best velocity can throw with the lowest arc, so the ball is in the air for a shorter period of time, which means it's LESS affected by wind resistance than the ball that has a lot of arc.   

I can't be wrong about that because I think I said I didn't know! But I'm glad you did the analysis now I know!

 

One thing I thought of but make no specific claims about so you can't pin a mistake on me, is how fast those defensive backs move. I worked it out one time and they can move a surprising distance in 2 tenths of a second if they have  head of steam up. 

 

 

[Figster]

1 minute ago, kota said:

Go to BB.com and look at the practice video after Peterman was announced as starter.  Tyrod and him are doing drills.  They were throwing outs to WR's.  The ball basically got there at the same time.  So if you were happy with Tyrod's Arm Strength you should be happy with Peterman's.  

Besides he looks bigger than he did earlier this year.  I am sure he throws it much faster now.  

 

Nothing to worry about.

post deserved some love

[rant_and_go_returns]

2 hours ago, Steptide said:

This is just my opinion, but to me arm strength is the absolute dumbest argument to be made against a qb. 

 

For one, even the strongest qbs in the NFL over throw or under throw recievers at times. Does t matter who the qb is, they've done it. 

 

Two, unless a qb is trying to throw it 75 yards, this argument is void. Fitzpatrick was known to have a weak arm, but could still throw it 50 yards if necessary (I seem to remember Stevie Johnson making a crucial drop on a 50 yard bomb) 

 

Lastly, I don't know if I ever seen a qb in the NFL that couldn't throw the ball 20 yards or less. Which is the average pass by a qb. Not every throw made by a qb is a deep shot, home run throw. 

 

Just my opinion, but the whole arm strength argument is so over blown

It's not just range, but velocity. Ball needs to get out of the air quick to beat the defender.

 

A lot of routes are horizontal,  so add at least 10 yards to every throw.

They'll be figured out eventually. Make up for it by running or getting big in the offseason.

[Shaw66]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But we agree that has to do with throw placement and adjusting the timing for the WR, not just with the velocity of the throw, right?

But don't you see that "adjusting the timing" means you have to throw earlier than the guy who throws with greater velocity?   If you hae to throw earlier you have to decide earlier, and deciding earlier means you're going to make the wrong decision sometimes, because you couldn't wait the extra split second.   

[co_springs_billsfan]

40 minutes ago, Foxx said:

there are many intangibles that come into play here, arm strength is only one part of the equation. there is also the window that he is throwing into. how far away are the defenders on the window? are the defenders even looking into the backfield when the throw is being made. is it a back shoulder throw. is he throwing to a spot. 

 

many many factors in the equation at hand. arm strength is one. the six inch space between the ears being the most important.

I agree 100%. Take a cannon arm without the cerebral traits and you get a bust in Jamarcus Russell.  On the other hand Fitzpatrick had made a decent journeyman career out of his brain talent but not much arm talent.  Then you have guys like Rodgers who are the complete package. 

 

Arm strength isn't everything, but it's a complementing factor to make an elite quarterback.  Arm strength is useless without the brain stuff (if you consider making millions of dollars and being a crappy quarterback "useless"). Odds are more against Peterman becoming elite due to his arm strength (which is why he fell in the draft), but his ceiling is much higher than many give him credit for (long term backup?).  I guess we'll just have to wait and see.  Get your popcorn ready for this Sunday!!

Edited November 16, 2017 by co_springs_billsfan

[Figster]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is nonsense.   There are no star QBs who don't have strong arms.   

 

Why do you think people describe good QBs as guys who "can make all the throws"?   What do you think it means?   It means he can throw short, throw deep, throw on a line, throw with touch, complete the 15-yard sideline pattern without hanging the ball in the air for the corner to pluck it.   You can't "make all the throws" if you don't have a strong arm.  

Peyton won his last Championship with what many would call a noodle arm,

 

I'm just saying...

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, rant_and_go_returns said:

They'll be figured out eventually. Make up for it by running or getting big in the offseason.

This is the interesting point, I think.  As some others have said, you get to the pros and you're getting some really sophisticated training.   If his arm strength is a problem, his diet, weight lifting and off-season work on his mechanics will all be designed to reduce his deficit.   (Unless he throws 17 interceptions in the next 7 games, in which case they'll tell him to go sit in the corner while they work on the rookie they drafted!)

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I actually think Kizer is going to be a good QB eventually. 

 

You were a big EJ guy, right? So this isn’t surprising. I’m not gonna turn this into the Deshone Kizer thread so I’ll just say I strongly disagree and move on.

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, Figster said:

Peyton won his last Championship with what many would call a noodle arm,

 

I'm just saying...

Denver would have won that Super Bowl with YOU at quarterback.    Peyton had nothing to do with winning that Super Bowl.   

[Figster]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

Denver would have won that Super Bowl with YOU at quarterback.    Peyton had nothing to do with winning that Super Bowl.   

lol, touche

[GoBills808]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

You were a big EJ guy, right? So this isn’t surprising. I’m not gonna turn this into the Deshone Kizer thread so I’ll just say I strongly disagree and move on.

I had high hopes for Manuel, yes. I was also high on Wentz, who IIRC you once said you wouldn't trade Taylor for and called a bust last season. I think you said the same about Goff. So safe to say I'm pretty comfortable disagreeing on QBs with you. 

 

 

[dubs]

33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But we agree that has to do with throw placement and adjusting the timing for the WR, not just with the velocity of the throw, right?

 

Oh, I agree with you that it's a multitude of factors.  I was simply pointing out that I think the topic of velocity is more important for the time the ball gets from A to B, not how far someone can throw it.  An earlier poster brought up arm strength as it relates to distance, I don't think that's really what most people mean when they say arm strength.  That's all I was saying.

Edited November 16, 2017 by dubs

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, kota said:

Go to BB.com and look at the practice video after Peterman was announced as starter.  Tyrod and him are doing drills.  They were throwing outs to WR's.  The ball basically got there at the same time.  So if you were happy with Tyrod's Arm Strength you should be happy with Peterman's.  

Besides he looks bigger than he did earlier this year.  I am sure he throws it much faster now.  

 

Nothing to worry about.

Post deserves some love, indeed.   It made me laugh.  Scratch my head first, then laugh.  

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Peterman has a lot going for him.  I think his number 1 attribute may be his intelligence and decision making.   The Wonderlic test presumably measures quick and accurate thinking.   Peterman had a 32 on the Wonderlic, not lights out, but among the best of the QBs coming out of the last draft, and pretty good overall.   Taylor had an apparently had a 15, and the biggest complaint about Taylor is decision making and a slow trigger.   We'll see about that.

 

The biggest complaint about Peterman, and something certainly worth worrying about, is arm strength.   I didn't know it, but at the combine they use a radar gun to determine the release velocity of thrown footballs.   Peterman was 49 mph, among the worst at the combine.   The best is in the high 50s, and just about all the name guys coming out of the draft are at or above 55.   So Peterman is 10-15% below where the best prospects are.   Over the years, very few guys are clocked below 50.    In fact, the only familiar name at the bottom of the velocity test is - Tyrod Taylor, clocked at 50.  

 

Now,  Taylor's interesting to me, because arm strength has not been a problem since he came to the Bills.   Did he improve his delivery and increase his delivery velocity in his four seasons at Baltimore?   I don't know, but if he did, that means that Peterman's major weakness could be addressed.   Brady also had a pretty poor deep ball early in his career, and he's improved that a lot.  Maybe there's hope. 

 

You can see all the numbers here.

Some guy name DeShaun was 4mph less than Nate and seemed to have a decent year before getting urt as was on record rookie pace so maybe velocity is not all it is cracked up to be

 

[HappyDays]

11 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I had high hopes for Manuel, yes. I was also high on Wentz, who IIRC you once said you wouldn't trade Taylor for and called a bust last season. I think you said the same about Goff. So safe to say I'm pretty comfortable disagreeing on QBs with you. 

 

 

 

My opinion on Goff hasn’t changed at all. He’s the beneficiary of a great offensive system and great offensive talent. He still makes poor decisions and if he came to Buffalo he wouldn’t be any good. Wentz has been better this year, no question. My opinion on him has gone up a little and it’s my own fault for not recognizing he had bad talent around him last year. It’s laughable that he is in the MVP conversation. He’s as likely to become the next Blake Bortles as he is to become the next Ben Roethlisberger. 

 

Would you feel good with either of those QBs down 7 points with 3 minutes on the clock? I wouldn’t. They haven’t shown they can win games where everything else isn’t going right. Any starting-level QB in a scheme designed for them can win games where their defense and run game are clicking. I wanted Tyrod benched for Peterman because he doesn’t fit this system at all. Next year he’ll go somewhere willing to design an offense around him and a lot of people here will be surprised with how successful he will be. That’s my prediction. Wentz will take a step back next year. That’s my other prediction.

[TheFunPolice]

I would assume that ANY NFL QB could "make all the throws" in terms of physically getting the ball there. It's just a matter of how effective/accurate they are.

 

A lot of guys with beer guys who set themselves on fire and chokeslam their girlfriends through tables at tailgate parties can throw a ball 40-50 yards. Doesn't mean it will be accurate or timely though.