Tim Graham:Whaley wasted everyone's time.

[JohnC]

Again,

 

Why did he need to dump TT in order to draft a first round QB?

Whaley simply lost confidence in him. He wanted him off the roster. He probably felt that he could get a cheaper bridge qb for the short-term.

[BuffaloHokie13]

Whaley simply lost confidence in him. He wanted him off the roster. He probably felt that he could get a cheaper bridge qb for the short-term.

Can you lose something you never had?

[jeffismagic]

Do you really believe that the reactive owner is thinking he is involved in a quick fix with a completely remade football operation? Everything was replaced from the previous regime. The scouting department was summarily dismissed; the front office was wiped clean and the HC completely took over the operation before the GM was even officially fired.

 

Pegula is not a fool. He wanted a new slate and he got it. Some might consider him incompetent as an owner but he isn't a fool. From an organizational standpoint this is a start-over. It's not a complete start-over for the roster but it will steadily be culled. He knows it's going to take time because that is the stark reality that he placed himself in when he went full buy in with the wrestling coach.

 

I think in a few months I will start a Pegula thread because this is pretty interesting to talk about. For now, I will exit as this thread is about the Buffalo News and Whaley. If you want to hit me up in the Shoutbox I can provide multiple examples that show the Pegulas not making decisions based on patience.

[Jauronimo]

I love the hyper literal brain trust at TBD. Take an excerpt from a presser out of context and then run with "OMG! Whaley JUST figured out that QB play is important!!!! WTF?!?!?!?"

[oldmanfan]

 

2 data points is greater than zero.

And equally meaningless statistically

[thewildrabbit]

By far my biggest problem with him.

Whaley made so many mistakes in his time as GM. The man was clueless on how to build a proper offense to support a rookie QB.

 

I think his biggest flaw was he wanted to support EJ as starter and yet didn't think to build a better offensive line to protect the kid. The whole allowing Levitre to walk away and then filling his spot with complete scrubs in Colin Brown, Sam Young and ultimately Doug Legursky was my biggest problem with him. Any rookie QB needs a solid chance to develop properly.

 

In a nutshell, Whaley, like Buddy Nix thought that any big bodied 300 pounder at 6 ft plus could play OG. What were his sayings? Any tackle can be moved to OG and OG's are a dime a dozen. Erik Pears proved that idea was complete nonsense. It took Rex Ryan to bring in an all pro OG who instantly made Glenn, Woods and the entire line better. (Old Rex even chased after La'el Collins only to lose him to Dallas.) Kyle Orton ran for the door after the 2014 season playing behind the worst line in the league.

 

TG is right in saying that Whaley was a waste of time as GM. Just like Nix was. Just like Brandon, Levy were. Hopefully now things have changed for the better.

[Rico]

Whaley made so many mistakes in his time as GM. The man was clueless on how to build a proper offense to support a rookie QB.

 

I think his biggest flaw was he wanted to support EJ as starter and yet didn't think to build a better offensive line to protect the kid. The whole allowing Levitre to walk away and then filling his spot with complete scrubs in Colin Brown, Sam Young and ultimately Doug Legursky was my biggest problem with him. Any rookie QB needs a solid chance to develop properly.

 

In a nutshell, Whaley, like Buddy Nix thought that any big bodied 300 pounder at 6 ft plus could play OG. What were his sayings? Any tackle can be moved to OG and OG's are a dime a dozen. Erik Pears proved that idea was complete nonsense. It took Rex Ryan to bring in an all pro OG who instantly made Glenn, Woods and the entire line better. (Old Rex even chased after La'el Collins only to lose him to Dallas.) Kyle Orton ran for the door after the 2014 season playing behind the worst line in the league.

 

TG is right in saying that Whaley was a waste of time as GM. Just like Nix was. Just like Brandon, Levy were. Hopefully now things have changed for the better.

Indeed.

 

Outside of the pure Pollyannas, I think some of his biggest fans were the mock draft geeks because a lot of his picks matched up well with their boards.

[row_33]

Indeed.

 

Outside of the pure Pollyannas, I think some of his biggest fans were the mock draft geeks because a lot of his picks matched up well with their boards.

 

I never understood those on here and the BBMB who gave him 100% benefit of the doubt on any possible issue.

[thebandit27]

Indeed.

 

Outside of the pure Pollyannas, I think some of his biggest fans were the mock draft geeks because a lot of his picks matched up well with their boards.

 

I think the analysis of Whaley is quite simple:

 

- He didn't get it right at QB

- He didn't get it right at head coach

- He did, however, raise the level of talent on the team substantially from what Nix left him

- He made acquisitions that vastly improved the OL and run game

 

There's no doubt that the top 2 points far outweigh the bottom 2 in importance, which is why he's no longer the GM here.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

I think the analysis of Whaley is quite simple:

 

- He didn't get it right at QB

- He didn't get it right at head coach

- He did, however, raise the level of talent on the team substantially from what Nix left him

- He made acquisitions that vastly improved the OL and run game

 

There's no doubt that the top 2 points far outweigh the bottom 2 in importance, which is why he's no longer the GM here.

 

HC wasn't up to him, but he certainly had chances to get the right QB.

[BringBackOrton]

 

I think the analysis of Whaley is quite simple:

 

- He didn't get it right at QB

- He didn't get it right at head coach

- He did, however, raise the level of talent on the team substantially from what Nix left him

- He made acquisitions that vastly improved the OL and run game

 

There's no doubt that the top 2 points far outweigh the bottom 2 in importance, which is why he's no longer the GM here.

What blue chip players did Whaley acquire that were better than Nix's blue chip players?

 

Dareus, Mario and Gilmore are 3 players that are better than any trio that Doug ever acquired. We would've been better off keeping Buddy.

Edited May 24, 2017 by jmc12290

[CanadianFan]

Losers always focus on losses.

[thebandit27]

What blue chip players did Whaley acquire that were better than Nix's blue chip players?

 

Dareus, Mario and Gilmore are 3 players that are better than any trio that Doug ever acquired. We would've been better off keeping Buddy.

 

You could certainly make arguments for McCoy, Watkins, Hughes, and Richie, but that's not really my point.

 

Take the level of talent that was on the team when Nix retired and compare it to the level of talent on the team 2 years later; there's no question the latter was greater.

[BringBackOrton]

 

You could certainly make arguments for McCoy, Watkins, Hughes, and Richie, but that's not really my point.

 

Take the level of talent that was on the team when Nix retired and compare it to the level of talent on the team 2 years later; there's no question the latter was greater.

You could make that argument if you wanted to be wrong. Dareus and Mario are/were top 5 at their positions, and Gilmore was top 10. Hughes and Richie are closer to good than great.

[thebandit27]

You could make that argument if you wanted to be wrong. Dareus and Mario are/were top 5 at their positions, and Gilmore was top 10. Hughes and Richie are closer to good than great.

 

McCoy was easily a top 5 at his position last year, and Richie has made 2 consecutive pro bowls, so perhaps slow your roll a bit on making those proclamations.

 

And you're still missing the point.

[BringBackOrton]

 

McCoy was easily a top 5 at his position last year, and Richie has made 2 consecutive pro bowls, so perhaps slow your roll a bit on making those proclamations.

 

And you're still missing the point.

Richie is a top five OG in the NFL?

[SoCal Deek]

As I previously posted...if you pretty much get everything right except QB and Head Coach you end up at 8-8. And you get yourself canned!

[thebandit27]

Richie is a top five OG in the NFL?

 

Well, 6 guards get selected to the pro bowl every year, and he's been selected the past 2 seasons.

 

You can take issue with that metric (and belabor a tangential argument) if you want, but again, you're missing the point.

[BringBackOrton]

 

Well, 6 guards get selected to the pro bowl every year, and he's been selected the past 2 seasons.

 

You can take issue with that metric (and belabor a tangential argument) if you want, but again, you're missing the point.

My argument was that Nix added more talented players than Whaley. You said "you could argue" without arguing that, because....

[row_33]

Richie is a top five OG in the NFL?

 

There's a Worship Richie movement among the fanbase.

 

Haven't yet seen anything to convince me he is that much way better than competent.

Edited May 24, 2017 by row_33

[thebandit27]

My argument was that Nix added more talented players than Whaley. You said "you could argue" without arguing that, because....

 

Your argument was that Nix had added a few players that were the team's most talented. I said that was debatable and cited names (which you have failed to discredit).

 

Moreover, you still cannot seem to identify the point that I made, which was that Whaley had a greater overall level of talent on the team in his tenure than Nix did. Why you're choosing not to acknowledge this is because...

 

There's a Worship Richie movement among the fanbase.

 

Haven't yet seen anything to convince me he is that much way better than competent.

 

No, there's no "worship Richie" movement. He's been selected to the pro bowl in 2 consecutive seasons, and so some folks (like myself) choose to identify him as a pro bowl guard. I know, I know, that's crazy talk.

[BringBackOrton]

 

Your argument was that Nix had added a few players that were the team's most talented. I said that was debatable and cited names (which you have failed to discredit).

 

Moreover, you still cannot seem to identify the point that I made, which was that Whaley had a greater overall level of talent on the team in his tenure than Nix did. Why you're choosing not to acknowledge this is because...

 

 

No, there's no "worship Richie" movement. He's been selected to the pro bowl in 2 consecutive seasons, and so some folks (like myself) choose to identify him as a pro bowl guard. I know, I know, that's crazy talk.

Fact, Nix was the only GM who added an All-Pro player for the Bills.

 

Sure, he added a few good pieces. I said that he did in Hughes etc. But we added better players under Nix and would've been better off with him.

[Kirby Jackson]

My argument was that Nix added more talented players than Whaley. You said "you could argue" without arguing that, because....

Nix was also the GM of worse teams which makes adding top talent easier. Dareus was the 3rd overall pick & Mario was the highest paid defensive player of all-time. I don't know how much credit you get for drafting a guy that many considered was the best player in the draft (same goes for Sammy)? I don't know how much credit you get for making a FA the top paid defensive player ever? The Shady trade also fits in this group. I wouldn't say that any of those moves indicated a "shrewd GM." Those were obvious. Tim Murray shouldn't get a ton of credit for taking Eichel either, a 4 year-old could have made that decision.

 

A good job by a GM, in any sport, is recognizing players that others aren't seeing. Sometimes that is because they are a better scheme fit and other times it because they haven't had the opportunity. The Hughes trade, Lorax, Incognito, Tyrod and Zach Brown signings are home runs for a GM. The additions of Darby, Gillislee, Karlos Williams and maybe Kevin Seymour are also big successes. The CK move, EJ pick, Rex hiring and extending Carpenter fall into the big fail category. It's like with anything there is good and there is bad.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[JohnC]

 

 

 

No, there's no "worship Richie" movement. He's been selected to the pro bowl in 2 consecutive seasons, and so some folks (like myself) choose to identify him as a pro bowl guard. I know, I know, that's crazy talk.

The first year he played for the Bills I thought he was one of the best guards in the league. Last year, he had a good to solid season but there was a noticeable drop off from his exceptional first year.

[thebandit27]

Fact, Nix was the only GM who added an All-Pro player for the Bills.

 

Sure, he added a few good pieces. I said that he did in Hughes etc. But we added better players under Nix and would've been better off with him.

 

Whaley had a greater overall level of talent on the team in his tenure than Nix did. That was my statement.

[Big Curt]

The Talent level the Bills have on this team is the highest it's been since 2002. I believe the Bills had like 5 Pro Bowl players. Sammy Watkins is one of the most talented players in the NFL at receiver. He's just been injury stricken, but the potential is limitless. Whaley missed on a QB but for the life of me why so much hate. The Buffalo News and certain fans are kicking DW while he's down. DW took for responsibility for his shortcomings and went out with class. Turn the page....Next chapter

Edited May 24, 2017 by Big Curt

[BringBackOrton]

 

Whaley had a greater overall level of talent on the team in his tenure than Nix did. That was my statement.

Yeah, he did. But Nix added better players. That was mine.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Mike Holmgrem thought in 2009/2010 that he could leisurely build a football team, putting first time Head Coach Pat Shurmer in charge, playing Colt McCoy, before taking Brandon Weeden.

 

Building through the Draft, releasing veterans, and doing a lot of losing.

 

What happened? Things changed, A new owner came in, new management came in, and Holgrem was out, the QB he drafted was out.

 

Whaley's plan at QB was to have career backups and journeyman compete against EJ Manuel. Famously said they were ok with Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis backing up Manuel, talked Orton out of retirement, got outbid for Josh McCown, traded for Matt Cassel and brought in Tyrod Taylor.

 

Whaley acted like he had time to just build and develop, to keep pushing for EJ Manuel, but things change. It will happen to Beane too, if he does not doing something better than Tyrod Taylor.

 

3rd year now with Baltimore's backup. You don't get 3 years anymore, let alone 5.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Straight Hucklebuck

[JM2009]

Yeah, he did. But Nix added better players. That was mine.

Nix was a terrible GM.

Mike Holmgrem thought in 2009/2010 that he could leisurely build a football team, putting first time Head Coach Pat Shurmer in charge, playing Colt McCoy, before taking Brandon Weeden.

 

Building through the Draft, releasing veterans, and doing a lot of losing.

 

What happened? Things changed, A new owner came in, new management came in, and Holgrem was out, the QB he drafted was out.

 

Whaley's plan at QB was to have career backups and journeyman compete against EJ Manuel. Famously said they were ok with Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis backing up Manuel, talked Orton out of retirement, got outbid for Josh McCown, traded for Matt Cassel and brought in Tyrod Taylor.

 

Whaley acted like he had time to just build and develop, to keep pushing for EJ Manuel, but things change. It will happen to Beane too, if he does not doing something better than Tyrod Taylor.

 

3rd year now with Baltimore's backup. You don't get 3 years anymore, let alone 5.

Taylor was not the reason the bills missed the playoffs in 2016.

[Dr. K]

Whaley never had the degree of control over the team that a lot of GMs have. In particular, he had to go with other people's first choices of coaches. I would have liked to see how the team would have done under Hue Jackson & Jim Schwartz instead of the Pegulas' disastrous choice Rex.

 

It's fashionable to beat on Whaley here right now the way people beat up John Butler and Wade Phillips, seventeen years ago, and jumped on the Gregg Williams bandwagon. We saw how that worked out.

 

I hope the new regime does better this time.

[JM2009]

Whaley never had the degree of control over the team that a lot of GMs have. In particular, he had to go with other people's first choices of coaches. I would have liked to see how the team would have done under Hue Jackson & Jim Schwartz instead of the Pegulas' disastrous choice Rex.

 

It's fashionable to beat on Whaley here right now the way people beat up John Butler and Wade Phillips, seventeen years ago, and jumped on the Gregg Williams bandwagon. We saw how that worked out.

 

I hope the new regime does better this time.

Who beat up on Butler and Phillips? Winning teams and playoff appearances.

[teef]

technically, hasn't everyone involved with this team over the last 17 years wasted our time?

[JM2009]

technically, hasn't everyone involved with this team over the last 17 years wasted our time?

Good point.

[Dr. K]

Who beat up on Butler and Phillips? Winning teams and playoff appearances.

You obviously were not around here back then. Wade was treated like a punching bag over a lot of trivial BS (and a few serious issues). They used to scream at him (I'm not kidding) for not wearing headphones on the sidelines. Losing to Miami and Tennessee in the playoffs was inexcusable to a lot of fans then. Butler was run out of town for standing up to Ralph (and for his terrible 2000 draft). Bills fans did not realize how good they had it.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Dr. K

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...Whaley is gone and Graham is a waste of time......slow news day with his "I told you so" crap......Jerry should be along shortly....oh joy.....

[JM2009]

You obviously were not around here back then. Wade was treated like a punching bag over a lot of trivial BS (and a few serious issues). They used to scream at him (I'm not kidding) for not wearing headphones on the sidelines. Losing to Miami and Tennessee in the playoffs was inexcusable to a lot of fans then. Butler was run out of town for standing up to Ralph (and for his terrible 2000 draft). Bills fans did not realize how good they had it.

I was around. I liked both Butler and Phillips. I guess not having social media back then, I don't remember that much hate on both. Some on the radio shows, but nothing how people react these days to such things with social media and message boards.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

EJ was just a horrible QB, Mooch said he could tell if a QB was worth a **** in TC and pre season.

 

Steve Mariucci? That'd be why he stuck with Jeff Garcia and Joey Harrington, and left coaching after 9 years of meh punctuated by a couple early exits from playoffs - 'cuz he could TELL.

[JM2009]

...Whaley is gone and Graham is a waste of time......slow news day with his "I told you so" crap......Jerry should be along shortly....oh joy.....

I checked his twitter-Sulivan has been pretty quiet today.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

Steve Mariucci? That'd be why he stuck with Jeff Garcia and Joey Harrington, and left coaching after 9 years of meh punctuated by a couple early exits from playoffs - 'cuz he could TELL.

...wasn't his bread buttered with the Niners and not so when he went to Detroit in a tougher setting?....didn't he get $10+ mil on the remaining two years after going 15-28?....and you wonder why the "booth" is comfy.........

Edited May 24, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[26TrapDraw]

 

Need to be careful. I was sent a warning for pointing this out.

Not a chance 26CB is a made man on this board.