Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) http://buffalonews.com/2017/05/22/tim-grahams-power-take-doug-whaley-wasted-time/ "What rookie GM doesn't know this from the jump? How did Whaley not understand EJ Manuel wasn't the answer when Doug Marrone preferred Kyle Orton off his sofa eight days before the 2014 opener, or when Rex Ryan preferred Matt Cassel to Manuel as the backup?" Graham is being disingenuous and using 20/20 hindsight. 1) When EJ was drafted, everyone knew he was a project who would take several years to develop and determine "was he one of the 50-60% of 1st round draftees who bust, or one of the 40-50% who make it"? Compounding the situation was a lack of QB coach and being "thrown in the fire" his first season after Fitz got the ax and Kolb got his bell rung. 2) It's also pretty widely known in the league, that if a young player is put up against a vet player picking up a new system in training camp, the veteran will usually win out because he has more experience learning diff. systems The problem with the EJM draft pick is not that the Bills drafted him or gave him a chance, it's that they didn't draft a QB the previous year (Wilson, Foles, Cousins) or ANOTHER QB (besides another "raw, high potential but needs time" guy in Cardale) in the first 4 rounds in the next 3 years. There's really nothing to see here. Lacking clickbait from McWrestler and Mr Beane, Graham is excavating a dead horse to flagellate. Edited May 23, 2017 by Hapless Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 We'll have to wait a few years to see if either Watson or Mahomes turns out to be anything. Just being aggressive ensures nothing. Just ask the Redskins with their aggressive moves to get RGIII. In the same year that the Skins drafted Griffin they also drafted Cousins in the fourth round. He is their starter now. The person who didn't want to invest a lot of picks and future picks on Griffin was their coach, Shanahan. It was the owner who insisted on mortgaging the future on Griffin. Cousins was available for us in the third or fourth round. We did what we usually do and passed. Our saga continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Yet, he getting paid by a SB contender. But you obviously know more about football than them.CB, if EJ takes the field for any length of time, their "contender" days are over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 CB, if EJ takes the field for any length of time, their "contender" days are over.I don't see him making the team. He's there to push Connor Cook. If Cook is competent in TC and the preseason they only keep 2 QBs imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I don't see him making the team. He's there to push Connor Cook. If Cook is competent in TC and the preseason they only keep 2 QBs imo. Perhaps. But if he gets cut there, I think there's a good chance another team picks him up. In this QB-desperate league, it's pretty common that first round draft picks who bust out with the drafting team get 2nd and 3rd chances, especially at a budget price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Perhaps. But if he gets cut there, I think there's a good chance another team picks him up. In this QB-desperate league, it's pretty common that first round draft picks who bust out with the drafting team get 2nd and 3rd chances, especially at a budget price. Where? There's a reason that there aren't guarantees in his contract. Teams have changed the way that they fill out the QB depth chart. They have their starter, a developmental prospect (or 2) and in some cases a solid vet. He doesn't fit any of those roles. I said last year that he's more likely to be out of the league than a number 2. I think that's the likely scenario. Beating out Cook is his best chance at being a 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill_with_it Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Graham is being disingenuous and using 20/20 hindsight. 1) When EJ was drafted, everyone knew he was a project who would take several years to develop and determine "was he one of the 50-60% of 1st round draftees who bust, or one of the 40-50% who make it"? Compounding the situation was a lack of QB coach and being "thrown in the fire" his first season after Fitz got the ax and Kolb got his bell rung. 2) It's also pretty widely known in the league, that if a young player is put up against a vet player picking up a new system in training camp, the veteran will usually win out because he has more experience learning diff. systems The problem with the EJM draft pick is not that the Bills drafted him or gave him a chance, it's that they didn't draft a QB the previous year (Wilson, Foles, Cousins) or ANOTHER QB (besides another "raw, high potential but needs time" guy in Cardale) in the first 4 rounds in the next 3 years. There's really nothing to see here. Lacking clickbait from McWrestler and Mr Beane, Graham is excavating a dead horse to flagellate. Kolb and Manuel Jackson had a qb competition day one. You are misremembering. Marrone and Whaley both dtated at the time it was a qb competition. Here is a link http://www.sportsmedia101.com/buffalobills/2013/06/13/buffalo-bills-quarterback-competition-down-to-kevin-kolb-ej-manuel/ Everybody keep saying what you said and its simply untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Keep kicking the guy when he's down. No need to be so sensitive, the report from Graham is new and for many of us it is interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Lesson learned: never take a project QB that you plan on keeping on the bench for a year. They never work out. The good news is we made for up for it by getting an additional 1st round pick for a similar prospect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 EJ is making less and has less job security than TJ Yates. Give it up. If TJ Yates, who has worst numbers across the board than EJ, makes this team, we're dumb and wasting money. CB, if EJ takes the field for any length of time, their "contender" days are over. You're right. He's no Ryan Mallett! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 If TJ Yates, who has worst numbers across the board than EJ, makes this team, we're dumb and wasting money. You're right. He's no Ryan Mallett! I agree on Yates. I see ZERO reason to keep him. Either keep both developmental guys or just keep 2 QBs (probably Peterman). If you want Yates in the QB room through TC fine but there is no benefit to wasting a roster spot on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I agree on Yates. I see ZERO reason to keep him. Either keep both developmental guys or just keep 2 QBs (probably Peterman). If you want Yates in the QB room through TC fine but there is no benefit to wasting a roster spot on him. 100% agree. Keep him to help learn the playbook with the others Qbs and give him a little money. Then cut him (and I'm sure he's a nice guy). Peterman and Jones can't be worse than what I've seen from Yates and they are much cheaper & have some upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billz4life820 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Funny that I was a piraiah on the BBMB for saying that before it was cool. I fought tooth and nail with people about EJ. He was literally the worst QB in the league, but you couldn't tell that to half of that board. He was the most over protected player I can ever remember in a bills uniform. It was sad. The guy was out played by every QB on the roster, each and every year he was in buffalo. Thank god he is gone. This is very true but bills fans do this with every below average qb and when they are off the team they move on to the next.... we saw the same with losman, edwards, fitzpatrick, manuel, and now it will be tyrod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 100% agree. Keep him to help learn the playbook with the others Qbs and give him a little money. Then cut him (and I'm sure he's a nice guy). Peterman and Jones can't be worse than what I've seen from Yates and they are much cheaper & have some upside. It was discussed a few weeks back in another thread and believe it or not there are A LOT of people on this board that think Yates makes the roster. To me, I see no benefit. If TT went down and you were worried about the young guys you can almost certainly sign Yates back off the street. If not Yates, Whitehurst, Ponder, Shaun Hill, maybe even RG3 are all potential short-term options. Those guys are no worse than Yates. Edited May 23, 2017 by Kirby Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Tim Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I am not surprised he failed out based on the situation. When drafted he was suppose to sit a year behind a competent qb(Kolb) and develop how to be a pro-not a college qb. he was thrown into the wolves and told do not lose the game which is an awful way to learn. Marrone then benched him for Orton who is not a good teammate by all accounts I read. He then tries to relearn how to be a qb in year three. He is not good right now but I wish him the best and hope that Oakland can make him good since he seems like a decent man. All that being said DW knows the NFL is QB driven and he never hit there. he improved about every other position but not the most important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 It was discussed a few weeks back in another thread and believe it or not there are A LOT of people on this board that think Yates makes the roster. To me, I see no benefit. If TT went down and you were worried about the young guys you can almost certainly sign Yates back off the street. If not Yates, Whitehurst, Ponder, Shaun Hill, maybe even RG3 are all potential short-term options. Those guys are no worse than Yates. All of those guys you named are upgrades over Yates. And I just want to hang out with Clipboard Jesus. He gets paid for nothing and lives an awesome life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I am not surprised he failed out based on the situation. When drafted he was suppose to sit a year behind a competent qb(Kolb) and develop how to be a pro-not a college qb. he was thrown into the wolves and told do not lose the game which is an awful way to learn. Marrone then benched him for Orton who is not a good teammate by all accounts I read. He then tries to relearn how to be a qb in year three. He is not good right now but I wish him the best and hope that Oakland can make him good since he seems like a decent man. All that being said DW knows the NFL is QB driven and he never hit there. he improved about every other position but not the most important. I don't think EJ would have succeeded under any team but to have Nate Hackett as his OC and QB coach was so Billsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I don't think EJ would have succeeded under any team but to have Nate Hackett as his OC and QB coach was so Billsy. Andrew Luck, a generational qb prospect, had Bruce Arians as his rookie year OC. Your boy has Andy Reid. EJ had Nate Freakin' Hackett. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Andrew Luck, a generational qb prospect, had Bruce Arians as his rookie year OC. Your boy has Andy Reid. EJ had Nate Freakin' Hackett. And EJ looked his best as a rookie! He got worse after 4 years of Bills "coaching". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Rex wasted our time far more . Whaley gave HCs the players they wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskingridgebillsfan Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 And EJ looked his best as a rookie! He got worse after 4 years of Bills "coaching". Marrone ruined any chance E.j has to be a solid qb. Rex wasted our time far more . Whaley gave HCs the players they wanted. yes No need to be so sensitive, the report from Graham is new and for many of us it is interesting. what is new about it ? same garbage from Tim over and over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PO16FFS Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Whaley is human. He didn't waste anyones time. He did his best. Good luck DW. Onto Mcdermott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Who Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Doug Whaley is a good fella and he did a reasonably good job with lots of coaching turmoil and turnover. Best of luck to him in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 The Pegulas wasted everyone's time by learning on the job and hiring two glorified scouts as GMs to learn on the job at the same time. Hard to blame Whaley. New owners should bring in experienced football/hockey folks. In which universe did Pegulas hire Whaley? You can make an argument that they should have fired Whaley when they took over the team, but that would fit into the 100% hindsight rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskingridgebillsfan Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Whaley was 24-24 the last three years. He had a coach that he didn't pick let him down big time in the last two years. His crime was not getting a qb. Guess what when you hire a Gm it is more likely that you won't get one then you will. Doug was hung for how he communicated with both the fans and especially the local media. All in all he wasn't a disaster he was ok. Maybe being the head of an organization doesn't match his skill set, we will see. The man can evaluate talent and will find work , lets see how it the future plays out. The future is unwritten after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I don't think that there's ANY doubt that Whaley was better at his job than Rex was at his. He wasn't perfect by any means but wasn't incompetent either. I wish him the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 so Pegs saves the team from leaving and you are not willing to give him a few years learning curve? Remember Marrone left and that put them in a tough spot from Jump Street. You know the alternatives were Trump, and he would have moved that team the first chance he got and Bon Jovi who was taking them to Canada . Lighten up on the Pegs Who are you replying to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real McClappy Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 There is an irony here. When he finally came to the realization that he needed to use a high draft pick on a qb he lost his authority to select one in this year's draft. I believe that he wanted to draft either Mahomes or Watson in the first round. It was too late because he was no longer making those decisions for the organization. I never understood his passivity on the qb issue. In the end he sabotaged himself by not being aggressive enough in addressing the qb issue. Because of the fixation on Tyrod Taylor amounting to something he most likely never will become. Whaley knew/Knows this and would have drafted a QB round1 this year if in control. It will be interesting to see what Mahomes will become in the league and if this franchise made a huge cluster F at the position like so many years in the past by ignoring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Because of the fixation on Tyrod Taylor amounting to something he most likely never will become. Whaley knew/Knows this and would have drafted a QB round1 this year if in control. It will be interesting to see what Mahomes will become in the league and if this franchise made a huge cluster F at the position like so many years in the past by ignoring it. So if that is the case who gets blamed? Whaley or McEverything? Maybe that's why McDermott kept Whaley around for the draft? To be his whipping boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskingridgebillsfan Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 The Pegulas wasted everyone's time by learning on the job and hiring two glorified scouts as GMs to learn on the job at the same time. Hard to blame Whaley. New owners should bring in experienced football/hockey folks. so Pegs saves the team from leaving and you are not willing to give him a few years learning curve? Remember Marrone left and that put them in a tough spot from Jump Street. You know the alternatives were Trump, and he would have moved that team the first chance he got and Bon Jovi who was taking them to Canada . Lighten up on the Pegs Who are you replying to? my bad apologies So if that is the case who gets blamed? Whaley or McEverything? Maybe that's why McDermott kept Whaley around for the draft? To be his whipping boy. I agree that Whaley was going to take a qb. He watched Taylor for two years and understood he was extremely limited. Mceverything is like a lot of non Bills fans who like to tell me how good Taylor is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Every one on the team for the past 17 years has wasted out time. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskingridgebillsfan Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Every one on the team for the past 17 years has wasted out time. /thread F Russ lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 My goodness, all I can say is that jm2009 is loving all the EJ hate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Rex wasted our time far more . Whaley gave HCs the players they wanted. 100% agree. Rex Ryan was a huge mistake, by the owners. People can blast Whaley all they want, but he never allowed to pick his own coach. I think it is easy to blast him for EJ Manuel, but at the same time (and it has been said a million times) EJ was drafted, with the knowledge that he wasn't a polished NFL starter level talent. He was going to take time. Head coaches and GMs can have different priorities. Manuel started out respectably, got injured, and never really had any sort of real sustained chance to play again. He never had much of a leash...lets' not forget, Manual missed most of his rookie season, but when he was in there, he didn't look as terrible as is being made out. So, the next season (and it seems logical to me) they went out and added what was viewed as one of the best players in that draft, in Sammy Watkins. Would anyone question that they needed an upgrade at the WR position at that point? Not saying every move Whaley made was fantastic, but I don't think he is near the failure that some here make him out to be. I would argue that the coaching was as big a problem for this team during his tenure, than personnel was. Ryan was an epic failure on all football matters, and Marrone had a pretty wretched and inexperienced offensive staff. Lets just hope they got everything right this time... Edited May 23, 2017 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2009 Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 And EJ looked his best as a rookie! He got worse after 4 years of Bills "coaching". Oh my goodness. This is ridiculous. EJ is not a good NFL QB. he does not have the gifts for it. He is what he was in College. He was a project pick. Whaley was not a good GM. TT is a decent alternative till there is better. Maybe McDermott found a gem in Peterman. The defense was the main problem. This roster is still average at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I don't think that there's ANY doubt that Whaley was better at his job than Rex was at his. He wasn't perfect by any means but wasn't incompetent either. I wish him the best. Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2009 Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 My goodness, all I can say is that jm2009 is loving all the EJ hate Sigh. EJ proved to be a bad NFL QB. Whaley pushed him on two staffs. I do not went bad at any position on the Bills. Any bad player needs to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baskingridgebillsfan Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Sigh. EJ proved to be a bad NFL QB. Whaley pushed him on two staffs. I do not went bad at any position on the Bills. Any bad player needs to go. Sigh. EJ proved to be a bad NFL QB. Whaley pushed him on two staffs. I do not went bad at any position on the Bills. Any bad player needs to go. Pushed him on two staffs, we have no evidence of that. He drafted him to develop him. He was forced to play as a rookie and faired ok for a rookie. Whaley Brought in Orton year 2 , cassal and Tayor the following Year. If he was forcing him on the staff he would have done the Billy beane thing in Moneyball and lef the coach with no option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM2009 Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 100% agree. Rex Ryan was a huge mistake, by the owners. People can blast Whaley all they want, but he never allowed to pick his own coach. I think it is easy to blast him for EJ Manuel, but at the same time (and it has been said a million times) EJ was drafted, with the knowledge that he wasn't a polished NFL starter level talent. He was going to take time. Head coaches and GMs can have different priorities. Manuel started out respectably, got injured, and never really had any sort of real sustained chance to play again. He never had much of a leash...lets' not forget, Manual missed most of his rookie season, but when he was in there, he didn't look as terrible as is being made out. So, the next season (and it seems logical to me) they went out and added what was viewed as one of the best players in that draft, in Sammy Watkins. Would anyone question that they needed an upgrade at the WR position at that point? Not saying every move Whaley made was fantastic, but I don't think he is near the failure that some here make him out to be. I would argue that the coaching was as big a problem for this team during his tenure, than personnel was. Ryan was an epic failure on all football matters, and Marrone had a pretty wretched and inexperienced offensive staff. Lets just hope they got everything right this time... There is so much wrong with this post, I don't know where to begin. EJ was a project pick that never should have been picked in the first round. He had plenty of chances-he failed. Two coaching staffs realized he was not starter material. He had to be benched. He's a draft bust because he was taken in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 In which universe did Pegulas hire Whaley? You can make an argument that they should have fired Whaley when they took over the team, but that would fit into the 100% hindsight rule. They should've at least found a way to surround him with experienced football personnel, such as a "czar" or whatever you want to call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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