GM Doug Whaley has been fired

[Scott7975]

I think the Bills should draft a QB more often but people saying they missed out on Carr, Prescott, Wilson never bring up the non misses on the other 50 QBs they could have drafted in that span.

[dave mcbride]

@ringer

Former NFL GM @mlombardinfl’s view on the surprise removal of the Buffalo Bills front office

https://t.co/TpxcKKkzIM

 

Awesome piece. Thanks for posting. Best thing I've read in a while.

[Wayne Arnold]

Awesome piece. Thanks for posting. Best thing I've read in a while.

 

Yes it is. This piece should have its own thread, imo.

[26CornerBlitz]

 

Yes it is. This piece should have its own thread, imo.

 

It does.

[C.Biscuit97]

Whaley got screwed. What GM would succeed if they never got to pick their head coach? He died being a good solider.

[BillsVet]

Whaley got screwed. What GM would succeed if they never got to pick their head coach? He died being a good solider.

 

Welcome to corporate America. If you're complaining about resources, you likely won't be complaining long.

 

Whaley didn't have the perfect situation. He also had it far better, at least in resources, than preceding GM's who worked within RW's antiquated system.

[Wayne Arnold]

 

It does.

 

Haha just saw that.

[Juice_32]

@ringer

 

This is exactly how I have felt about the situation. I'm just not smart enough to summarize my thoughts this effectively.

 

Thanks for posting. I have hope.

 

 

 

Former NFL GM @mlombardinfls view on the surprise removal of the Buffalo Bills front office

https://t.co/TpxcKKkzIM

 

[Guest NeckBeard]

 

I agree with that. I think he's been the best talent evaluator this franchise has had in a long time. But when you look at the collection of the players, there doesn't seem to be an overarching strategy. A big part of course is the coaching turnover, but that's also contributed to his demise. Other than Cleveland few franchises go through the lather rinse repeat players cycles like the Bills. Very good players should prosper in any scheme.

 

I am still surprised that the org rebooted the FO... IMMEDIATELY AFTER A DRAFT. To me, this is an ownership issue above all else, and I say that as somebody who did not have a gigantic, um, fascination over DW's track record. So let me get this straight: the GM is completely blind to the fact that you are going to fire them, the GM and friends pick players and set the board, and nobody is concerned on any level that things could possibly go wrong? Wow.

[3rdand12]

Whaley got screwed. What GM would succeed if they never got to pick their head coach? He died being a good solider.

Or was he?

 

Welcome to corporate America. If you're complaining about resources, you likely won't be complaining long.

 

Whaley didn't have the perfect situation. He also had it far better, at least in resources, than preceding GM's who worked within RW's antiquated system.

he had a lot of money he had to spend. Then Pegula

Bills had always played tight with the cap and the FO budget too.

Then Pegula .

money everywhere. Whaley blew his nut to quickly. Sorry Ladies and sensitive types..

But Watkins Clay and Shady for EJM ???

hindsight perhaps. But that is where Whaley invested.

 

I am sure he is very disappointed in the results of his tenure here. He also needs a clean slate. reboot.

No anger here. Just part of the learning curve for the Pegula's et al.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

I agree with that. I think he's been the best talent evaluator this franchise has had in a long time. But when you look at the collection of the players, there doesn't seem to be an overarching strategy. A big part of course is the coaching turnover, but that's also contributed to his demise. Other than Cleveland few franchises go through the lather rinse repeat players cycles like the Bills. Very good players should prosper in any scheme.

 

I don't think that's quite right. I would rephrase it as "good schemes allow very good players to prosper". NFL history is full of players who moved for FA money from a system that suited them to one not so much, and slipped. Very very few players play at the same level in every system.

 

I also feel that there's a lot of revisionist history going on now. You say there doesn't seem to be an overarching strategy, I disagree - it's just that last year's strategy differed from this year - as you note, coaching turnover.

For example this article http://buffalonews.com/2017/05/04/vic-caruccis-bills-analysis-star-system-extinguished-new-approach/ or the comments below:

 

Or was he?

he had a lot of money he had to spend. Then Pegula

Bills had always played tight with the cap and the FO budget too.

Then Pegula .

money everywhere. Whaley blew his nut to quickly. Sorry Ladies and sensitive types..

But Watkins Clay and Shady for EJM ???

hindsight perhaps. But that is where Whaley invested.

 

I am sure he is very disappointed in the results of his tenure here. He also needs a clean slate. reboot.

No anger here. Just part of the learning curve for the Pegula's et al.

 

totally fails to consider the context of some of the player acquisitions.

 

In 2015, the Bills had just come off a season with a top-5 D. There appeared to be a strategy: we have a strong D, improve the offense and we're a winning team. And it had the statistics from D the previous year to back it up. So Whaley went all-in to bring Roman the horses that Roman said he needed: the TE, the fullback, the star RB. And the offense did improve markedly, probably as much as it needed to IF the D had been able to maintain.

It wasn't Clay and Shady for EJM at that point. The Bills brought in the best vet QB they could obtain (Cassel) and the best 2nd tier FA QB hedging their bets.

 

I don't think it's a case of Whaley 'blew his nut' too early - the assessment was that the Bills had a window of strong D, and they needed to spend to bring in the O to match it. The flaw in that assessment wasn't with player evaluation, it was with bringing in a coach in Rex who blew the whole D up and couldn't deliver. Who is responsible for that, don't know, doesn't matter now.

 

I hope we wind up with a great, solid team now. It's possible. It's also possible that overall, the level of talent on the team will fall now that the whole host of folks ID'ing it left the building.

 

I'm in "wait and see" mode.

[3rdand12]

 

I don't think that's quite right. I would rephrase it as "good schemes allow very good players to prosper". NFL history is full of players who moved for FA money from a system that suited them to one not so much, and slipped. Very very few players play at the same level in every system.

 

I also feel that there's a lot of revisionist history going on now. You say there doesn't seem to be an overarching strategy, I disagree - it's just that last year's strategy differed from this year - as you note, coaching turnover.

For example this article http://buffalonews.com/2017/05/04/vic-caruccis-bills-analysis-star-system-extinguished-new-approach/ or the comments below:

 

 

totally fails to consider the context of some of the player acquisitions.

 

In 2015, the Bills had just come off a season with a top-5 D. There appeared to be a strategy: we have a strong D, improve the offense and we're a winning team. And it had the statistics from D the previous year to back it up. So Whaley went all-in to bring Roman the horses that Roman said he needed: the TE, the fullback, the star RB. And the offense did improve markedly, probably as much as it needed to IF the D had been able to maintain.

It wasn't Clay and Shady for EJM at that point. The Bills brought in the best vet QB they could obtain (Cassel) and the best 2nd tier FA QB hedging their bets.

 

I don't think it's a case of Whaley 'blew his nut' too early - the assessment was that the Bills had a window of strong D, and they needed to spend to bring in the O to match it. The flaw in that assessment wasn't with player evaluation, it was with bringing in a coach in Rex who blew the whole D up and couldn't deliver. Who is responsible for that, don't know, doesn't matter now.

 

I hope we wind up with a great, solid team now. It's possible. It's also possible that overall, the level of talent on the team will fall now that the whole host of folks ID'ing it left the building.

 

I'm in "wait and see" mode.

I appreciate your PoV Hapless.

 

But Bills went "Win Now " mental. At that point I agreed with it !!

Now i feel it was likely shortsighted

[GG]

 

I don't think that's quite right. I would rephrase it as "good schemes allow very good players to prosper". NFL history is full of players who moved for FA money from a system that suited them to one not so much, and slipped. Very very few players play at the same level in every system.

 

I also feel that there's a lot of revisionist history going on now. You say there doesn't seem to be an overarching strategy, I disagree - it's just that last year's strategy differed from this year - as you note, coaching turnover.

For example this article http://buffalonews.com/2017/05/04/vic-caruccis-bills-analysis-star-system-extinguished-new-approach/ or the comments below:

 

 

totally fails to consider the context of some of the player acquisitions.

 

In 2015, the Bills had just come off a season with a top-5 D. There appeared to be a strategy: we have a strong D, improve the offense and we're a winning team. And it had the statistics from D the previous year to back it up. So Whaley went all-in to bring Roman the horses that Roman said he needed: the TE, the fullback, the star RB. And the offense did improve markedly, probably as much as it needed to IF the D had been able to maintain.

It wasn't Clay and Shady for EJM at that point. The Bills brought in the best vet QB they could obtain (Cassel) and the best 2nd tier FA QB hedging their bets.

 

I don't think it's a case of Whaley 'blew his nut' too early - the assessment was that the Bills had a window of strong D, and they needed to spend to bring in the O to match it. The flaw in that assessment wasn't with player evaluation, it was with bringing in a coach in Rex who blew the whole D up and couldn't deliver. Who is responsible for that, don't know, doesn't matter now.

 

I hope we wind up with a great, solid team now. It's possible. It's also possible that overall, the level of talent on the team will fall now that the whole host of folks ID'ing it left the building.

 

I'm in "wait and see" mode.

 

Note that you've highlighted Whaley's visible personnel decisions, which most people agree is his strong suit. But the loud knock on him that's coming out now is his deficiency on the other parts of being the GM, which is more than just fielding the 53 man squad for the upcoming season. That role encompasses the full component of the football operation from players, admin & support staff and interactions with the coaches. When you hear talk of friction across two coaching staffs, it's no wonder that McD requested a clean slate.

[jeffismagic]

 

Note that you've highlighted Whaley's visible personnel decisions, which most people agree is his strong suit. But the loud knock on him that's coming out now is his deficiency on the other parts of being the GM, which is more than just fielding the 53 man squad for the upcoming season. That role encompasses the full component of the football operation from players, admin & support staff and interactions with the coaches. When you hear talk of friction across two coaching staffs, it's no wonder that McD requested a clean slate.

The Bills insiders on this board have repeatedly dismissed the idea that Whaley couldn't get along with people. Marrone didn't get along with anyone, that is true. But Rex and Whaley never had issues.

Edited May 5, 2017 by jeffismagic

[BringBackOrton]

The Bills insiders on this board have repeatedly dismissed the idea that Whaley couldn't get along with people. Marrone didn't get along with anyone, that is true. But Rex and Whaley never had issues.

The personal friends of Whaley dismissed that Whaley shared any blame?

[jeffismagic]

The personal friends of Whaley dismissed that Whaley shared any blame?

 

You are welcome to believe the Russ Brandon types more, if you like.

[iinii]

Still fired, the role of GM has changed. Today's winners are coach driven. The game is so specialized that teams need to be built to specifically fit the nuances of each coach's scheme. Whaley fell in love with talent and it wound up being his undoing.

Edited May 5, 2017 by iinii

[GG]

The Bills insiders on this board have repeatedly dismissed the idea that Whaley couldn't get along with people. Marrone didn't get along with anyone, that is true. But Rex and Whaley never had issues.

 

Say what? There wasn't a single rumor out there over the last two years that Rex & Whaley differed in their strategy?

[BringBackOrton]

 

You are welcome to believe the Russ Brandon types more, if you like.

I always consider the source before accepting a "dismissal."

[Rico]

The Bills insiders on this board have repeatedly dismissed the idea that Whaley couldn't get along with people. Marrone didn't get along with anyone, that is true. But Rex and Whaley never had issues.

That only works if you believe the Bills "insiders" on this board are credible.

[jeffismagic]

That only works if you believe the Bills "insiders" on this board are credible.

That's how it works. It's a take it or leave it proposition. But the idea that Whaley couldn't work with Rex then forces one to wonder why Whaley wasn't fired with Rex.

[Scott7975]

I wonder if the Pegula structure of GM reporting to the Pegula and coach reporting to Pegula actually creates animosity between coach and GM.

[ndirish1978]

I wonder if the Pegula structure of GM reporting to the Pegula and coach reporting to Pegula actually creates animosity between coach and GM.

 

That's a good question. My guess would be that it depends on the personalities of the people you have in place. It's entirely plausible that Whaley resented the fact that he was put in a horizontal position to the HC on the organization flow chart and tried to find ways to set himself over our HCs or vice versa. It's also entirely possible that ALL organizations have certain friction internally, but they actually keep it internal rather than fighting for control of the franchise like it's the Iron Throne.

[Bill_with_it]

The personal friends of Whaley dismissed that Whaley shared any blame?

The same ones that attempted to discredit any notion of Whaley's job being in jeopardy.

[BringBackOrton]

That's how it works. It's a take it or leave it proposition. But the idea that Whaley couldn't work with Rex then forces one to wonder why Whaley wasn't fired with Rex.

He was. It just took longer to be made official.

[Rico]

The same ones that attempted to discredit any notion of Whaley's job being in jeopardy.

Just about.

 

Me, I'm old school. Despite all the many efforts to trash his name and drag him in the mud, I still trust Vic Carucci over any poster in here not named John Warrow.

[26CornerBlitz]

He was. It just took longer to be made official.

 

The Pegulas changed course after becoming smitten with McDermott. Let's all hope he's the man to finally get the team past the point of mediocrity.

[Big Curt]

I will say the one thing that Doug Whaley did for the Bills was make them relevant again in some ways. Some how the Bills were able to convince big time free agents to come to Buffalo. The Bills have a horrible reputation around the league as Siberia. We have made the playoffs in this century, yet we were on the news consistently. Was it for winning no, however compared to the previous regimes, Whaley had a 30-34 record. The best record we've had in years. Where Whaley failed was he was trying to "just make the playoffs" for the new season or two. He didn't have a vision for 5 or 10 years down the road. The pressure of missing the playoffs got to Whaley. He wanted to make the playoffs so bad that he sold his soul to the devil for a quick fix. It's very easy to say blow it up and start over when you feel you're a player or two away. If Whaley made the playoffs, once during his time here he'd be a God. But unfortunately for him, he's just gone.

[DrDawkinstein]

I wonder if the Pegula structure of GM reporting to the Pegula and coach reporting to Pegula actually creates animosity between coach and GM.

 

Of course it does, and it's been discussed in detail on practically every page of this thread.

 

The Pegula Flat structure requires that Pegula be the "decider". But he doesnt want to make decisions, and shouldnt be making decisions since he isnt a football guy. He wants to lead from his mansion in Florida.

 

He either needs to appoint McD as the boss, or hire a football boss for both to answer to.

 

It is this structure that leads to bickering and long term animosity. Especially when you are dealing with the big egos and stubborn personalities typically found in the NFL.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

I think the truth, probably differing from a lot of fan speculation, that Whaley is a quite good talent evaluator, a middle-of-the-road people manager (which is a lot of a GM's role), and still developing at the skill of valuing a player or a contract. I think he left a lot of that to Monos and Overdorf, and mistakes were made.

 

I don't think he was fired for messing up the EJ pick or the Sammy pick or any other pick or trade. I think he was fired for lacking consistency and oversight into decisions affecting the cap and into contract provisions.

Sounds right.... if he was as incompetent as the pitch fork crowd painted, he'd have never even made it past his first season in Pittsburgh

[eball]

Just about.

 

Me, I'm old school. Despite all the many efforts to trash his name and drag him in the mud, I still trust Vic Carucci over any poster in here not named John Warrow.

 

Vic has been his own worst enemy, and he has been wrong many times since coming back to Buffalo. Perhaps the "new" Bills organization will mend fences with TBN so guys like Vic can be relevant again.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

 

That's a good question. My guess would be that it depends on the personalities of the people you have in place. It's entirely plausible that Whaley resented the fact that he was put in a horizontal position to the HC on the organization flow chart and tried to find ways to set himself over our HCs or vice versa. It's also entirely possible that ALL organizations have certain friction internally, but they actually keep it internal rather than fighting for control of the franchise like it's the Iron Throne.

 

.......Whaley & staff had built the defense personnel wise into a top five unit (Schwartz adapted his scheme to fit the personnel as well).....with the arrival of Wrecks, a significant portion of the work put into getting it to a top five was undone.......often wondered if Whaley soured on the organization watching those efforts result in going from a top 5 to #19 at the blowhard's undoing....sure as hell would piss me off..........

Edited May 5, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[Rico]

 

Vic has been his own worst enemy, and he has been wrong many times since coming back to Buffalo. Perhaps the "new" Bills organization will mend fences with TBN so guys like Vic can be relevant again.

I'll take his track record any day and any time over any of the "insiders" that post in here not named John Warrow.