Something that isnt recognized about Head Coaches...

[Big Turk]

And why so many coordinators make poor ones.

 

You go from basically being in charge of your group of guys to being in charge of EVERYTHING. Totally different skill sets. Head Coach is busy putting out fires a lot of the time and has to see the big picture of what needs to be accomplished while a coordinator is kind of self-contained in their own world...

 

It's not any wonder so many good coordinators make poor head coaches, it's a totally different skill set and one I think teams need to be looking for instead of how good did this guy rank on offense or defense.

 

What they accomplished as coordinators is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture of how they will handle the much more in depth responsibility of being a head coach.

[GunnerBill]

Excellent post.

[BringBackFergy]

And why so many coordinators make poor ones.

 

You go from basically being in charge of your group of guys to being in charge of EVERYTHING. Totally different skill sets. Head Coach is busy putting out fires a lot of the time and has to see the big picture of what needs to be accomplished while a coordinator is kind of self-contained in their own world...

 

It's not any wonder so many good coordinators make poor head coaches, it's a totally different skill set and one I think teams need to be looking for instead of how good did this guy rank on offense or defense.

 

What they accomplished as coordinators is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture of how they will handle the much more in depth responsibility of being a head coach.

Add respect of players and experience in time/game management, and you hit the nail on the head. (Enter: Frank Reich, Coughlin, Matt Patricia for example).

[Captain_Quint]

Matt Rhule from Temple (just took the Baylor job). A leader of men.

[swnybillsfan]

the be a coordinator, you have a set unit and set strategy and personnel to plan for. as a head coach you have to be an overseer, a diplomat, a referee, a go between, a philosopher, the bad guy, the face of the franchise, the scapegoat, a clock manager. and you will be micromanaged for every decision you make. you will be thrown under the bus by players, and the media will be looking to feast off your carcass. and let us not forget the wrath of the fans...

[Samwell Tarly]

You're definitely right. However, in this world we promote people beyond their skill level for any number of reasons, then tear them down when they fail.I believe they call it the Peter principle, but for the sake of this argument we can call it Wade Phillips syndrome.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

And why so many coordinators make poor ones.

 

You go from basically being in charge of your group of guys to being in charge of EVERYTHING. Totally different skill sets. Head Coach is busy putting out fires a lot of the time and has to see the big picture of what needs to be accomplished while a coordinator is kind of self-contained in their own world...

 

It's not any wonder so many good coordinators make poor head coaches, it's a totally different skill set and one I think teams need to be looking for instead of how good did this guy rank on offense or defense.

 

What they accomplished as coordinators is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture of how they will handle the much more in depth responsibility of being a head coach.

 

Excellent point. And that's where the risk/reward of hiring a HC comes in. A team can take a risk on a HC candidate - a OC, DC or ST coordinator who has never held a HC position - with no guarantee he will have that skill set, maybe not totally different skill set but certainly enough different aspects that it isn't a sure bet.

 

Or, they can hire a retread coach who has already bombed and been fired from one or more HC positions, and hope for a different result this time around.

the be a coordinator, you have a set unit and set strategy and personnel to plan for. as a head coach you have to be an overseer, a diplomat, a referee, a go between, a philosopher, the bad guy, the face of the franchise, the scapegoat, a clock manager. and you will be micromanaged for every decision you make. you will be thrown under the bus by players, and the media will be looking to feast off your carcass. and let us not forget the wrath of the fans...

 

You make the gig sound just irresistably attractive

[filthymcnasty08]

I cannot stand when a great coordinator becomes a HC and keeps his play calling duties. That is a conflict of interests if you ask me. Something else will suffer from the lack of attention or the disproportionate amount of preparation.

[Kelly the Dog]

It's like being President. There is no apprenticeship whatsoever for it. Nothing you could possibly have done before would thoroughly prepare you for the job. You know and may even understand all of the responsibilities, but until you are in charge of all 30 of them at once, and have to make split second in game decisions while you are thinking of 12 other things at the same time, no one knows whether you will be good at it or not. Or learn to be good at it over time.

[Punching Bag]

A good head coach should not bring in his "guys" but coaches whose opinions he respects and willing to disagree when he believes decision is wrong. Now the head coach makes the decisions but needs to leave each coach make his own decisions except when he believes very strongly in different direction.

 

Same philosophy should apply to owners - not overriding coaches (Wilson and Browns on QB decision are good examples).

[Original Byrd Man]

True, but thats not to say a coordinator can't make the transition. That is the reason they look for candidates with a strong emphasis on organizational skills.

[jeffismagic]

Bills should hire Ernie Adams...

[dave mcbride]

You're definitely right. However, in this world we promote people beyond their skill level for any number of reasons, then tear them down when they fail.I believe they call it the Peter principle, but for the sake of this argument we can call it Wade Phillips syndrome.

Wade was 30-18 after taking over a 6-10 Bills team. He also had a playoff victory, at least in my book.

[The Wiz]

And why so many coordinators make poor ones.

 

You go from basically being in charge of your group of guys to being in charge of EVERYTHING. Totally different skill sets. Head Coach is busy putting out fires a lot of the time and has to see the big picture of what needs to be accomplished while a coordinator is kind of self-contained in their own world...

 

It's not any wonder so many good coordinators make poor head coaches, it's a totally different skill set and one I think teams need to be looking for instead of how good did this guy rank on offense or defense.

 

What they accomplished as coordinators is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture of how they will handle the much more in depth responsibility of being a head coach.

I don't argue any point that you made at all but the question is how do you quantify it?

 

You can look at OC's and DC's that made their respective units great and think "maybe they can be a HC" and fall on their face (Pettine/Schwartz as HC's).

 

Then you can look at guys like Marrone,Kelly that are already HC's at a different level but are unable to perform the task at a higher level.

 

There have been OC's and DC's that have been able to make the transition to HC sucessfully. It just seems like they are a diamond in the rough.

 

The one thing I never understood is why a HC is also the OC or DC of a team when the position is there for someone else but you decided to do the work yourself(that someone else is already doing and you agree with or ignore) and ignore other aspects of the game.

[MAJBobby]

Its really no different than being a Commander.

 

You lead.

Set your philosophy to accomplish mission (Commander's Intent)

Pick and Instruct staff of philosophy (Platoon Leaders)

Ensure postion coaches train and develop Skills (NCOs)

 

Then you empower those subordinates to do thier jobs within the left and right limits of your Philosophy (Commanders intent again)

 

 

It really isnt that big of a stretch the best ever coach BB studies the crap out of the military and always is going to the Academies for key role players.

Edited December 29, 2016 by MAJBobby

[Punching Bag]

Wade needed better coaches on his staff. I think if he was offered job and told that to get job he needed OC/DC/ST coaches the GM approved of and had authority to fire on his own (no Ronnie Jones) he could do a good job now.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I cannot stand when a great coordinator becomes a HC and keeps his play calling duties. That is a conflict of interests if you ask me. Something else will suffer from the lack of attention or the disproportionate amount of preparation.

 

I have actually been mocked and criticized here for expressing just this view (expressed it about Chan Gailey and about Rex Ryan), but I still believe it to be true.

I think it's just common sense, if Team A has a full-time guy drawing up the D plan, a 2nd full-time guy drawing up the O plan, and a third full-time guy looking at the opponent's tendencies and scrutinizing both plans....

But Team B has a full time guy drawing up the D but only 1 guy drawing up both the O plan and overseeing both...there are only so many hours in the day, something has got to give.

[Punching Bag]

 

I have actually been mocked and criticized here for expressing just this view (expressed it about Chan Gailey and about Rex Ryan), but I still believe it to be true.

I think it's just common sense, if Team A has a full-time guy drawing up the D plan, a 2nd full-time guy drawing up the O plan, and a third full-time guy looking at the opponent's tendencies and scrutinizing both plans....

But Team B has a full time guy drawing up the D but only 1 guy drawing up both the O plan and overseeing both...there are only so many hours in the day, something has got to give.

 

Yes and Rex tried to fix it by adding bigger coaching staff but unfortunately it failed.

[The Wiz]

 

I have actually been mocked and criticized here for expressing just this view (expressed it about Chan Gailey and about Rex Ryan), but I still believe it to be true.

I think it's just common sense, if Team A has a full-time guy drawing up the D plan, a 2nd full-time guy drawing up the O plan, and a third full-time guy looking at the opponent's tendencies and scrutinizing both plans....

But Team B has a full time guy drawing up the D but only 1 guy drawing up both the O plan and overseeing both...there are only so many hours in the day, something has got to give.

Hurt my head but I think I agree.

 

EDIT: I read it again and yea, I do agree. Basically the logic is "I made a plan and I am the only one who could say this plan is wrong" (for team B anyways).

 

Yes and Rex tried to fix it by adding bigger coaching staff but unfortunately it failed.

The problem wasn't the size of the staff but the fact that the defense was his and his brothers. They schemed and then let everyone else know the plan they had to implement. Doesn't work well unless you are the pulse of the team.

 

Even some of the players stated after he was fired that the D staff had "too many cooks in the kitchen".

Edited December 29, 2016 by The Wiz

[BigBuff423]

Have to agree in principle with OP's general statement and begs the question: what do all of the great HCs have in common? Is there some way with careful consideration to history, that one can reasonably predict future success?

 

I don't have the answer but what does strike me is, many of the successful HCs "came out of nowhere" until they started to win and got noticed. That alone tells me, while a GM / Owner need to identify a man who can do the job, they also need to be willing to take the risk of a relatively unknown commodity. An unpopular path to take in these times.

[Wayne Arnold]

And why so many coordinators make poor ones.

 

You go from basically being in charge of your group of guys to being in charge of EVERYTHING. Totally different skill sets. Head Coach is busy putting out fires a lot of the time and has to see the big picture of what needs to be accomplished while a coordinator is kind of self-contained in their own world...

 

It's not any wonder so many good coordinators make poor head coaches, it's a totally different skill set and one I think teams need to be looking for instead of how good did this guy rank on offense or defense.

 

What they accomplished as coordinators is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture of how they will handle the much more in depth responsibility of being a head coach.

 

So if they're to ignore coordinator accomplishments, what kind of qualities should a GM be looking for in a head coach?

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

this is where Rex failed. He should have respected the job that Schwartz did on Defense and let him run with it, instead of demanding the players to adapt to his style. Had Rex given up his ego and let the coordinators do their job, we'd be talking two straight years of playoffs and Rex as King of Buffalo instead of another jackass clown that needs to be chased out with a pitchfork.

[Wayne Arnold]

Add respect of players and experience in time/game management, and you hit the nail on the head. (Enter: Frank Reich, Coughlin, Matt Patricia for example).

 

How do you know Reich and Patricia are good at time/game management?

this is where Rex failed. He should have respected the job that Schwartz did on Defense and let him run with it, instead of demanding the players to adapt to his style. Had Rex given up his ego and let the coordinators do their job, we'd be talking two straight years of playoffs and Rex as King of Buffalo instead of another jackass clown that needs to be chased out with a pitchfork.

 

Absolutely.

[3rdand12]

And why so many coordinators make poor ones.

 

You go from basically being in charge of your group of guys to being in charge of EVERYTHING. Totally different skill sets. Head Coach is busy putting out fires a lot of the time and has to see the big picture of what needs to be accomplished while a coordinator is kind of self-contained in their own world...

 

It's not any wonder so many good coordinators make poor head coaches, it's a totally different skill set and one I think teams need to be looking for instead of how good did this guy rank on offense or defense.

 

What they accomplished as coordinators is largely irrelevant to the bigger picture of how they will handle the much more in depth responsibility of being a head coach.

it is relatively easy to go hard on a newish HC.

 

The curve must be astounding to take that step. It goes so far beyond gameday.

 

and who the hell wants to take poop from the people that are representing the "media". That enough for me to say "no way" i love my coordinating job!

[Kelly the Dog]

this is where Rex failed. He should have respected the job that Schwartz did on Defense and let him run with it, instead of demanding the players to adapt to his style. Had Rex given up his ego and let the coordinators do their job, we'd be talking two straight years of playoffs and Rex as King of Buffalo instead of another jackass clown that needs to be chased out with a pitchfork.

There would have been zero reason to hire Rex Ryan if he was going to do that. You would have been 100x better off hiring Hue Jackson or Frank Reich and let Schwartz do his thing.

[Wayne Arnold]

There would have been zero reason to hire Rex Ryan if he was going to do that. You would have been 100x better off hiring Hue Jackson or Frank Reich and let Schwartz do his thing.

 

But they didn't hire Rex because the defensive system needed to change.

[Kelly the Dog]

But they didn't hire Rex because the defensive system needed to change.

But they hired him to run the defense. It certainly wasn't because of his prowess at running an offense, or in game decisions.

[John from Riverside]

This is why I want to see who the OC and DC are gonna be with whoever we hire.....

 

You know....I was a little dense in Rex Ryan's first year.....thought a defensive genious could make any defense work.....Pettine was an understudy of Rex and we put up awesome sack numbers......the word on RR with his exotic blitz schemes was he produced the sack numbers but also didnt have running game holes

 

Well....guess what.......

 

I need to see a DC that

 

- Runs out of a 4-3 base because that is still the strength of our team

- puts a value on stopping the run

[Wayne Arnold]

But they hired him to run the defense. It certainly wasn't because of his prowess at running an offense, or in game decisions.

 

Giving the Pegula's the benefit of the doubt, they knew they had a good thing on defense and wanted someone who could sustain success on that side of the ball for the long-term. Schwartz was only the DC and was getting HC interest. Why they didn't just promote Schwartz we'll never know, and I'm sure Kim and Terry have been kicking themselves for falling for Rex's schtick ever since. I guess Schwartz didn't tell good jokes like Rex did in his interview.

[Kelly the Dog]

Giving the Pegula's the benefit of the doubt, they knew they had a good thing on defense and wanted someone who could sustain success on that side of the ball for the long-term. Schwartz was only the DC and was getting HC interest. Why they didn't just promote Schwartz we'll never know, and I'm sure Kim and Terry have been kicking themselves for falling for Rex's schtick ever since. I guess Schwartz didn't tell good jokes like Rex did in his interview.

I agree with that. But the point was, if you're going to let Schwartz run his defense, which was the premise of the post I responded to, and you have a suspect offense, the last guy in the NFL you are going to hire is Rex Ryan.

[John from Riverside]

 

Giving the Pegula's the benefit of the doubt, they knew they had a good thing on defense and wanted someone who could sustain success on that side of the ball for the long-term. Schwartz was only the DC and was getting HC interest. Why they didn't just promote Schwartz we'll never know, and I'm sure Kim and Terry have been kicking themselves for falling for Rex's schtick ever since. I guess Schwartz didn't tell good jokes like Rex did in his interview.

I think the Hue and Schwartz thing that WHaley was advocating would have worked a lot better

 

It is important to note that was the rumor of WHaley's first choice......had the pegs listened to him? Who knows where wew ould be right now

[LI_Bills]

Maybe I missed the OP's point, but what exactly is the path to being a head coach if it's not being an Offensive/Defensive Coordinator first?

 

Some guys are able to step up, loosen the reins on their attachment to offense/defense and become real leaders, some can't.

 

Personally, I love the OC/DC that didn't work out as a HC and is willing to take a step back. I don't think Rex fits that mold, but look at guys like Schwartz and Wade.

[The Jokeman]

I think the Hue and Schwartz thing that WHaley was advocating would have worked a lot better

 

It is important to note that was the rumor of WHaley's first choice......had the pegs listened to him? Who knows where wew ould be right now

I think the Pegula's got dazzled by Rex's personality. As let's face it he can be very charming when he wants to be. Toss in "his love of Buffalo" also be brought in an OC who seemed to fit in with what he wanted in Roman etc.

[BringBackFergy]

Its really no different than being a Commander.

 

You lead.

Set your philosophy to accomplish mission (Commander's Intent)

Pick and Instruct staff of philosophy (Platoon Leaders)

Ensure postion coaches train and develop Skills (NCOs)

 

Then you empower those subordinates to do thier jobs within the left and right limits of your Philosophy (Commanders intent again)

 

 

It really isnt that big of a stretch the best ever coach BB studies the crap out of the military and always is going to the Academies for key role players.

Marv was a big history buff too.

[Kelly the Dog]

I think the Hue and Schwartz thing that WHaley was advocating would have worked a lot better

 

It is important to note that was the rumor of WHaley's first choice......had the pegs listened to him? Who knows where wew ould be right now

I think the Hue and Schwartz thing that WHaley was advocating would have worked a lot better

 

It is important to note that was the rumor of WHaley's first choice......had the pegs listened to him? Who knows where wew ould be right now

What's funny is I had heard from someone in the know right when the Bills hired Rex that Jackson was their top choice and I didn't really believe it.

[YoloinOhio]

 

So if they're to ignore coordinator accomplishments, what kind of qualities should a GM be looking for in a head coach?

Relentless expectations

Willingness to outwork and outsmart the competition

Ability to create a culture of competition everyday and in everything

Ability to form a staff of smart, hungry Xs and Os coaches who can develop drafted talent

Edited December 29, 2016 by YoloinOhio

[Wayne Arnold]

I agree with that. But the point was, if you're going to let Schwartz run his defense, which was the premise of the post I responded to, and you have a suspect offense, the last guy in the NFL you are going to hire is Rex Ryan.

 

I think the original poster was speaking from Rex's perspective after he was already hired. The smart thing for him to do was to just let Schwartz run his defense. But obviously that was never going to happen because football coaches.

I think the Hue and Schwartz thing that WHaley was advocating would have worked a lot better

 

It is important to note that was the rumor of WHaley's first choice......had the pegs listened to him? Who knows where wew ould be right now

 

I really think this is why Whaley has the driver's keys to the head coach this time.

[DCbillsfan]

Some qualities that stick out to me for successful coaches are 1) they are good teachers. They pay attention to detail and they make time to correct mistakes right away. Bill Walsh and Bill Belichick come to mind. 2) they are true leaders and motivate their players. Marv Levy, Mike Tomlin, John Harbaugh and Pete Carroll. 3) they are proactive in their approach. They bring changes to the game - shotgun, flex d, no huddle offense to name a few. They are also proactive when it comes to personnel. Their teams are disciplined and well coached. Problem players are benched, cut or traded.

[Big Turk]

I don't argue any point that you made at all but the question is how do you quantify it?

 

You can look at OC's and DC's that made their respective units great and think "maybe they can be a HC" and fall on their face (Pettine/Schwartz as HC's).

 

Then you can look at guys like Marrone,Kelly that are already HC's at a different level but are unable to perform the task at a higher level.

 

There have been OC's and DC's that have been able to make the transition to HC sucessfully. It just seems like they are a diamond in the rough.

 

The one thing I never understood is why a HC is also the OC or DC of a team when the position is there for someone else but you decided to do the work yourself(that someone else is already doing and you agree with or ignore) and ignore other aspects of the game.

 

I'm not sure...its hard. And a lot of candidates might interview well but not actually be like that in their day to day machinations of running the team..like Gregg Williams who apparently brought a notebook he had been keepnig for 20+ years into the interview with him and one of the big reasons he got hired...didn't turn out to well for him. They may not stay cool under pressure and get frazzled when things get hectic and start running around like a chicken with their head cut off trying to fix everything themselves instead of taking a step back and instructing others what to do and having everyone work together to get through it.

 

Having been in management for a while and working with both good and bad managers, that was the one big thing I noticed...good managers used their people to get through rough parts and were in charge, cool under pressure and directed people as to what to do...poor managers simply put their heads down, and tried to work harder and do everything themselves, which usually led to lack of direction for their staff, employees that had a poor understanding of what was being asked of them and a lot of frustration because nobody seemed to know what was going on, least of all the person in charge as they were too busy trying to solve all the problems themselves...

 

I think with the magnitude of what is being asked as a head coach it is not even like going from an assistant manager to a store manager, but more like going from an assistant manager to a regional dierctor and skipping store manager and district manager on the way there...the number of new responsibilities and the amount of non-football things that take up your time are staggering in comparison to what they are used to as an assistant...there really isn't any preparation for it and I think its why so many do poorly...they get a lot dumped on their plate and they have to get all of it figured out very quickly with litle margin for error...

 

So if they're to ignore coordinator accomplishments, what kind of qualities should a GM be looking for in a head coach?

 

I don't think they should ignore them, I simply think they should base their decision much more on other areas...for instance is a good coach with terrible players not a good coach because his team finished 25th? Not necessarily...

 

Just like a good coordinator necessarily isn't that good if they have a lot of good players...

 

Everything should be relative...what results did they get with the talent they had at their disposal? Did they overachieve based on their talent or underachieve? If you have great offensive weapons and finish 10th in the NFL, but had 3rd in the NFL talent did he really do a better job than a coach who got his team to 17th in offense but had 28th in the NFL talent? I'd argue the first coordinator underperformed while the other overperformed but you rarely see these things taken into consideration which is a shame and leads to a lot of poor decisions...

 

Did the star QB get hurt early in the year and hamstring the offense? Is that really the OC's fault because they are playing a backup QB who everyone knows are mostly terrible in the NFL for anything more than a few games of spot duty? There are a lot of things that should be taken into consideration other than raw numbers, but not many do...

Edited December 29, 2016 by matter2003

[ganesh]

I cannot stand when a great coordinator becomes a HC and keeps his play calling duties. That is a conflict of interests if you ask me. Something else will suffer from the lack of attention or the disproportionate amount of preparation.

and second guessing the work done by the DC