Buffalo Barbarian Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Which traitor?? You forget who set a possible move to Toronto in motion...why it was Mr. Wilson himself. If not for the 78 million money grab (straight into his vault) that allowed these Canadians in the door, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I was referring to Bon Jovi who being an American moving us to Toronto. True... Ralph has not helped either by not putting a transition plan in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Hey AJ, when and where was this reading done? It was done right around 1992, if memory serves. My buddy went into the service in '93, so it had to be the year before. I was asking her if the Bills would win it all in my lifetime, and she said no...and that's when she mentioned the Toronto thing. So this was long before there was any actual talk of moving, and she was clueless about football in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corp000085 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I was referring to Bon Jovi who being an American moving us to Toronto. True... Ralph has not helped either by not putting a transition plan in place. Unless you are his attorney, you have no reason to know if this is true or not. Of course, if you were his attorney, you just broke attorney-client privileges. Shame on you for being a bad lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I 'am hoping T Pegula , Bob Rich or both would keep the Bills here. If making a lot of money is the motive, the Bills are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 How sad is it that 3 teams are "NYS based" and not even a whole season of football is played in the state? Now we find out that there is a chance that we may even lose that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 The Jags, Rams and Browns all sold for a market price recently. None were being moved nor was moving them an issue in their sale. In fact, none of them could move when they were purchased. I do seem to remember something about the lease with the city being guaranteed for a few more years, and then another heavy penalty if they wanted to relocate. I suppose they could just wait it out, but that's building a stadium maybe a decade in advance for something very uncertain. Reeeallllly hoping for the Jim Kelly group now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 But what would happen if the owners meetings conflict with his tour dates?? CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 according to Forbes, Bon Jovi has a net worth of $290 million. that's a little short of $1 Billion. http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/forbes-400/ones-to-watch/profiles/0917_ones-to-watch_jon-bon-jovi.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I will throw up (literally) if the Bills move to Toronto. I honestly cant see it happening. The CFL would sugger a huge hit and not to mention the Argos would do everything they can to fight it CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Ah, the bye week... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) Which traitor?? You forget who set a possible move to Toronto in motion...why it was Mr. Wilson himself. If not for the 78 million money grab (straight into his vault) that allowed these Canadians in the door, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Really? This company is going to drop a billion in a new stadium which would generate NFL-level income ("lease") 10 days a year? This has never been done before--for a reason. It would be impossible to finance with such a business model. And spare us the talk of "conventions and concerts" as another way to recoup the mortgage on such a stadium. Jerry Jones has no problem with the $1B stadium business model (Cowboys the primary tenant). Nor does the Santa Clara county with $1.3b Levi's stadium where the 49ers are primary tenant. Or Gillette Stadium, or Soldier Field (all $1b+ facilities - football only) Been to Toronto lately? It is rockin' economically. 4th largest city population on the contingent (larger than Chicago or Boston or Dallas). Get your head out of the sand, my friend, you don't like it and I don't like it, but the business model is proven by the fact it has been executed multiple times in metro areas smaller and less economically powerful than Toronto. It is coming. I 'am hoping T Pegula , Bob Rich or both would keep the Bills here. If making a lot of money is the motive, the Bills are gone. When something costs you $1B to purchase, making a lot of money becomes the motive very quickly. Can we just go back to talking about the team again? This topic is a sad one. Edited November 25, 2013 by 8and8Forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Jerry Jones has no problem with the $1B stadium business model (Cowboys the primary tenant). Nor does the Santa Clara county with $1.3b Levi's stadium where the 49ers are primary tenant. Or Gillette Stadium, or Soldier Field (all $1b+ facilities - football only) Been to Toronto lately? It is rockin' economically. 4th largest city population on the contingent (larger than Chicago or Boston or Dallas). Get your head out of the sand, my friend, you don't like it and I don't like it, but the business model is proven by the fact it has been executed multiple times in metro areas smaller and less economically powerful than Toronto. It is coming. When something costs you $1B to purchase, making a lot of money becomes the motive very quickly. Can we just go back to talking about the team again? This topic is a sad one. So you do that by: 1. Paying $1B for the franchise 2. Paying $1B for a Stadium 3. Paying $400 M to Erie County 4. Paying a relocation fee to the NFL Good luck turning a profit after spending that much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 The Bills are as good as gone. When I am out of town and talk to people about the Bills, I usually say that. It was tough to get myself mentally to accept the reality, but it'll make it easier when it happens. The NFL is licking their chops to get into Toronto. It is a monster city with inflated prices and so much business. It checks the box internationally, and Toronto's demographics includes large chunks of everyone on Earth. It makes me sick how the NFL "promotes" and romanticizes relocation in the Madden videogame. Buffalo can work, but it would require patience from the NFL and some maneuvering. Ultimately it would come down to NFL's desire, and I dont see it there. It wont be like the Sabres situation where they hold the team in efforts to find local interests with the desire and $. The "bidding" here will be swift and likely rigged to provide the team to Toronto in a shiny package with a bow. These things have been in the works with Lieweke (sp) brought on board. The NFL will sell off the other NFL fans and hope to keep WNY fans by justifying the move by saying "its not that far, itll be both cities' teams, but they will just play in Toronto and change the name and uniforms. Maybe someday they can play a game in Buffalo". The actions of the Bills do not make me feel better. I believe Mary Owen is the teams' head of the Toronto operation, likely paving her way once the team moves. I also do not like how dismissive and uncomfortable Russ Brandon gets when people talk about anything to do with a new Buffalo stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 It was done right around 1992, if memory serves. My buddy went into the service in '93, so it had to be the year before. I was asking her if the Bills would win it all in my lifetime, and she said no...and that's when she mentioned the Toronto thing. So this was long before there was any actual talk of moving, and she was clueless about football in general. Interesting. Was the reading in Western New York? If not, that would make it even more bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 The Bills are as good as gone. When I am out of town and talk to people about the Bills, I usually say that. It was tough to get myself mentally to accept the reality, but it'll make it easier when it happens. The NFL is licking their chops to get into Toronto. It is a monster city with inflated prices and so much business. It checks the box internationally, and Toronto's demographics includes large chunks of everyone on Earth. It makes me sick how the NFL "promotes" and romanticizes relocation in the Madden videogame. Buffalo can work, but it would require patience from the NFL and some maneuvering. Ultimately it would come down to NFL's desire, and I dont see it there. It wont be like the Sabres situation where they hold the team in efforts to find local interests with the desire and $. The "bidding" here will be swift and likely rigged to provide the team to Toronto in a shiny package with a bow. These things have been in the works with Lieweke (sp) brought on board. The NFL will sell off the other NFL fans and hope to keep WNY fans by justifying the move by saying "its not that far, itll be both cities' teams, but they will just play in Toronto and change the name and uniforms. Maybe someday they can play a game in Buffalo". The actions of the Bills do not make me feel better. I believe Mary Owen is the teams' head of the Toronto operation, likely paving her way once the team moves. I also do not like how dismissive and uncomfortable Russ Brandon gets when people talk about anything to do with a new Buffalo stadium. Or, you know, Jeremy Jacobs, Terry Pegula, or Golisano could buy the team. All of them have deeper pockets than any Toronto buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 So you do that by: 1. Paying $1B for the franchise 2. Paying $1B for a Stadium 3. Paying $400 M to Erie County 4. Paying a relocation fee to the NFL Good luck turning a profit after spending that much money. Fair points. This is the hope for those hoping the team stays at the Ralph forever. Overwhelming costs. But remember NFL franchises for sale by auction (not inside sale) only come around every 25 years (Redskins were the last team to move this way -- 20 years ago)… My sense is that the relocation fee will be negotiated away between the buyer and the league by "splitting" the team between Rogers Centre and the Ralph for several years, with the games slowly being migrated to Toronto as the new stadium is built and the fan base is build in Toronto. The lease payments to Erie County continue, supported by the revenue from 5 or 6 games at the Ralph. This could go on for 2-4 years (remember the real money in the NFL is the TV contract revenue, so where the games are played is not the largest consideration for an owner). At the end of this period, the Toronto stadium is built , the Toronto fan base is built, the Ralph lease termination payment is manageable and probably negotiated away by that point, the Bills fans have accepted the inevitable and if they haven't, the Toronto fans have seen what we think is a pretty good team (by that point) playing playoff games in Toronto and building a background with the fans, as happened in Baltimore as the Browns became the Ravens. Again, I don't like it, no one who watched games in the rock pile likes it, but lets be real. This is a rare type of asset and one is coming to the market at auction for the first time in 20 years. A lot of money will be chasing this thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) So you do that by: 1. Paying $1B for the franchise 2. Paying $1B for a Stadium 3. Paying $400 M to Erie County 4. Paying a relocation fee to the NFL Good luck turning a profit after spending that much money. well said. Some people play with Billionaire money in their heads. Others actually add up all the numbers and realize it's just not feasible. Even $2B for the Franchise and a New Stadium isn't feasible. You would never make your money back in your lifetime with that. At just over $120M a year in return (average per team from the TV contract) it wouldn't he until your children's children started to make money off that deal. People can live in this fantasy world that the Bills are leaving but they aren't. It's just not reasonable. Edited November 25, 2013 by mrags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Or, you know, Jeremy Jacobs, Terry Pegula, or Golisano could buy the team. All of them have deeper pockets than any Toronto buyer. That is all good and my only hope (add Bob Rich to that as well). Jacobs would need to sell the Bruins, and with that many parts, they would likely need to be organized (which is what Toronto interests have been doing for years). They would need to do research into how likely a new stadium is, public funding, lease w/county, etc. Methinks the NFL will streamline the Bills to Toronto sale long before the "players" here decide and are ready for a formal bid package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I was asking her if the Bills would win it all in my lifetime, and she said no... Just curious to know just how old you are? Are you in good health? Do you live in Watts? Just wondering how long we've got to wait before the Bills can be considered for the Super Bowl again. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Or, you know, Jeremy Jacobs, Terry Pegula, or Golisano could buy the team. All of them have deeper pockets than any Toronto buyer. I'm going to bet with their 18 billion in assets that Rogers has deeper pockets. Now, they are a company with a lot of divisions and sports is a very small part of that, but they have the deepest pockets. MLSE is not so diverse and is worth considerably less... a couple billion. I am not sure about the people behind them, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) That is all good and my only hope (add Bob Rich to that as well). Jacobs would need to sell the Bruins, and with that many parts, they would likely need to be organized (which is what Toronto interests have been doing for years). They would need to do research into how likely a new stadium is, public funding, lease w/county, etc. Methinks the NFL will streamline the Bills to Toronto sale long before the "players" here decide and are ready for a formal bid package. well, Jim Kelly has been saying for eyes that he has a group that has upwards of $2B available for the purchase of the team. So the fact is that "players" here have been making a formal bid package. As far as Jacobs, the NFL says to be the majority over of a franchise you can't have another team in another market. Not sure if that would even be an issue if he was a minority share holder. Like say 29% of the team. Which is what the Pegula, Galisano, Kelly, Rich, and Jacobs group could be. Just saying. Edited November 25, 2013 by mrags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 It was done right around 1992, if memory serves. My buddy went into the service in '93, so it had to be the year before. I was asking her if the Bills would win it all in my lifetime, and she said no... AJ, have you ever thought about starting smoking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 well, Jim Kelly has been saying for eyes that he has a group that has upwards of $2B available for the purchase of the team. So the fact is that "players" here have been making a formal bid package. As far as Jacobs, the NFL says to be the majority over of a franchise you can't have another team in another market. Not sure if that would even be an issue if he was a minority share holder. Like say 29% of the team. Which is what the Pegula, Galisano, Kelly, Rich, and Jacobs group could be. Just saying. I hope you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Anderson's Lunch Pail Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 That is all good and my only hope (add Bob Rich to that as well). Jacobs would need to sell the Bruins, and with that many parts, they would likely need to be organized (which is what Toronto interests have been doing for years). They would need to do research into how likely a new stadium is, public funding, lease w/county, etc. Methinks the NFL will streamline the Bills to Toronto sale long before the "players" here decide and are ready for a formal bid package. It is a little naive to think that if there was interest from the Buffalo "players," they haven't already figured out their game plan. These guys are billionaires. They know how this works. The know how old Wilson is. When the time comes, they aren't going to be shocked by the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braedenstearns Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) So we will be the Toronto bills? That would wreak everything! Edited November 25, 2013 by Braedenstearns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l< j Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I was asking her if the Bills would win it all in my lifetime, and she said no Just curious to know just how old you are? Are you in good health? Do you live in Watts? Just wondering how long we've got to wait before the Bills can be considered for the Super Bowl again. AJ, have you ever thought about starting smoking? I'm thinking ajzepp is going to be a wanted man here soon. Wait, wasn't that a Bon Jovi song? kj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloRebound Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Didn't read the whole thread. Is there someone in the Rogers family who has the individual wealth to buy the Bills? NFL doesn't allow corporate ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Wilson's deal did nothing but fleece Toronto of tens of millions of dollars. If anything, he staked his claim to Toronto to prevent another team from being expanded there. It would also probably cost at least half a billion for the relocation fee for the new owners. He didn't "stake his claim" to Totonto, he pimped out his team to Toronto for some quick cash and now will leave the team to get passed around to various canadian bidders after he passes. The relocation fee is $275 million. Jerry Jones has no problem with the $1B stadium business model (Cowboys the primary tenant). Nor does the Santa Clara county with $1.3b Levi's stadium where the 49ers are primary tenant. Or Gillette Stadium, or Soldier Field (all $1b+ facilities - football only) Been to Toronto lately? It is rockin' economically. 4th largest city population on the contingent (larger than Chicago or Boston or Dallas). Get your head out of the sand, my friend, you don't like it and I don't like it, but the business model is proven by the fact it has been executed multiple times in metro areas smaller and less economically powerful than Toronto. It is coming. When something costs you $1B to purchase, making a lot of money becomes the motive very quickly. Can we just go back to talking about the team again? This topic is a sad one. Jerry Jones owns the team and the stadium and all of the revenue generated in it and from the team, so it makes no sense to compare to a third party stadium builder/owner. Kraft owns the team and the stadium and of the revenue generated in it and from the team.......etc. Soldier field and the new 49ers field were built/refurbished mainly with public money, which will not be the case with a third party owner/builder in Toronto, so it makes no sense to compare them either. So that leaves no precedent for what you are suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l< j Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Soldier field and the new 49ers field were built/refurbished mainly with public money, which will not be the case with a third party owner/builder in Toronto, What is the environment for public subsidies of stadia in Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 It sort of makes sense. Already have in addition to SteveJ, FJ, we have TJ, CJ, EJ.... Why not be owned by BJ? On the Toronto talk, I just struggle to believe They'd fill the seats or generate the size interest/TV market for our brand of American Football. I'm still a fan of the Niagara Falls stadium solution. You get within an hour or so of TO, about same distance from b-lo proper while just as close to the more densely populated burbs. Should be interesting to see it play out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DollarBills Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Per Buffalo Business First, design work is underway for a Toronto stadium thanks to our friends at MLSE..... http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/blog/morning_roundup/2013/11/design-work-is-reportedly-underway-on.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 @GMillerTSN A random sampling this morning reveals that 80% of respondents would rather Jon Bon Jovi moved the Patriots to Toronto than the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 What is the environment for public subsidies of stadia in Canada? Don't know, but 8and8 is insisting on the feasability of some 3rd party building a stadium without NFL team revenue--only NFL team rent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Here is something few people know about Canada: things like luxury boxes and club seating are not tax deductible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) Per Buffalo Business First, design work is underway for a Toronto stadium thanks to our friends at MLSE..... http://www.bizjourna...nderway-on.html So basically the same situation that's happened in Los Angeles. Lots of talk and designs made etc, but none of it coming to fruition. Count me as a skeptic. Edited November 25, 2013 by Wayne Cubed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I know skydome (Rogers Center) certainly has many events outside of MLB and CFL. Every time I am in Toronto it seems like something is going on there, whether its motocross or UFC... I wonder if the new stadium would be billed as Jays/NFL again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Is it all possible that Jim Kelly is involved with the Bon Jovi ownership group? I know JBJ is "buddies" with numerous NFL QB's, Elway and Marino come to mind...could JBJ be the investor that Jim has been talking about for the last 5 years or so? From the sounds of it, Bon Jovi has had his eye on the Bills ownership situation for a while now. Awful music aside (and the idea of somebody buying, then moving the team notwithstanding), Bon Jovi might not be our worst option. I think the NFL itself is going to have as much to say about the Bills future in WNY as a new owner will...in other words, if the NFL wants the team out of our town, they will approve ownership by somebody who is wanting, and willing, to follow that plan...if the NFL recognizes the importance of keeping the team in WNY, than an owner in tune with that line of thinking will be welcomed. Assuming Bon Jovi had a desire to keep the team where they are (who knows?) would having a rock icon (albeit a terrible one) be the worst thing for the Buffalo Bills name-brand. As long as the team isn't playing in acid-wash zubaz every week (third uniform perhaps?), there could be worse opitons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 How rock n roll of Bon Jovi. Let's partner with a bunch of corporate billionaires and move a team with a blue collar fan base and means everything to its city to a giant metropolis that doesn't care about the NFL whatsoever in order to become even richer. After all, that's what rock n roll is all about. I loled and support this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DollarBills Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 (edited) I think the most important thing to come out of this JBJ situation is that Toronto interests (ie. MLSE) are actively working to pick up the Bills after Ralph dies. While this is concerning, there are still so many intangibles at this point to say MLSE/Larry Tanenbaum are leading contenders to buy the team. They include: 1. Is there a group/person with the finances and motivation to compete with any TO group? 2. Can a new stadium get built in WNY and is the process already underway? There was a WGRZ article from March saying the Bills/Erie county were scouting sites. 3. How much will NYS/Erie Co contribute to a new stadium? This is vital given the ability of MLSE to fund a stadium in Toronto and the high cost any new owner would have to pay for the team. 4. How Ralph's will is set up- Do the Bills go into a trust, if so for how long? Can his heirs control who the team is sold to or is it just the highest bidder? 5. Will the NFL allow it? I'm a bit concerned that the NFL seems to think TO/Buffalo are part of the same "region". Edited November 25, 2013 by DollarBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 Maybe the original members of Styx can put together a bid and exceed JBJ's offer. Kip Winger and Michael Bolton can be minority partners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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