Enough dodging: who is the QB for this team/why?

[DrDawkinstein]

Without going into too much detail, my position is that unless EJ stinks it up in camp or during preseason the job is his to lose, not win. I can't imagine EJ and Kolb performing similarly and them giving the job to Kolb -- that's not why you draft a QB in the first round.

 

If Kolb clearly outperforms EJ in August then you have to determine if that's because EJ just needs some time to develop, or if you've made an error in your talent evaluation. Personally, I believe playing QB for a D-1 powerhouse for 2+ seasons qualifies as sufficient preparation to start in the NFL, and that's why I strongly believe EJ will be the opening day starter.

 

As usual, what eball said. Agreed it's EJ's job to lose. But if they do go with Kolb, I wont be too worried. Not at first, at least.

[3rdand12]

E.J. was drafted to start. Kolb was signed to a backup contract. That is what the team and fans want to see happen. But neither E.J. nor Kolb have played a game in a Bills uni. The answer to your both parts of your question will come with preseason game results.

you are supposed to pick one Sir. Read the rules. : )

 

EJ is walking into a good situation offensively since he will have a top team of RBs to protect him and help him along.

and protect him?

Not sure but i think in a roundabout way i agree. Kolb still starts

[Thirty Year Fan]

TUEL for Pres in 2016!!!

Don't be a Tool (Tuel) just play like one!

[chris heff]

i'm exactly inversed proportionally K -9.

 

 

It's gonna be Kolb and Bills are in no rush to put EJ in to satisfy the fan base. But they also are ramping up Manuel asap. Just in case Kolb is injured or struggles mightily early.

Does everyone understand that Kolb lost his job to John Skelton?

 

Not because of injury. After Arizona traded for Kolb in 2011, he was beaten out of his job in camp and preseason by a guy from Fordam University.

 

So after being the starter in 2011 he lost the job in 2012 and people think a rookie that started for two years at FSU can't beat this guy out.

[3rdand12]

Does everyone understand that Kolb lost his job to John Skelton?

 

Not because of injury. After Arizona traded for Kolb in 2011, he was beaten out of his job in camp and preseason by a guy from Fordam University.

I am not sure about everyone. But i am quite aware of Kevin's history and surroundings during his proffesional career.

[NoSaint]

i'm exactly inversed proportionally K -9.

 

 

It's gonna be Kolb and Bills are in no rush to put EJ in to satisfy the fan base. But they also are ramping up Manuel asap. Just in case Kolb is injured or struggles mightily early.

 

Manuel is the safe money. Since losman, how many first round qbs haven't suited up day 1? It feels like an overwhelming majority do lately.

 

 

Does everyone understand that Kolb lost his job to John Skelton?

 

Not because of injury. After Arizona traded for Kolb in 2011, he was beaten out of his job in camp and preseason by a guy from Fordam University.

 

So after being the starter in 2011 he lost the job in 2012 and people think a rookie that started for two years at FSU can't beat this guy out.

 

Man... John Skelton.... I'm sorry BB but it still gets me every time I hear that name.

[Ralph W.]

you are supposed to pick one Sir. Read the rules. : )

 

and protect him?

Not sure but i think in a roundabout way i agree. Kolb still starts

Fred Jackson is good at pass protection. Play action b.c of our dangerous backs is also good for the young QB.

[3rdand12]

NS , i know the stats and it is the pressure of the NFl to get these kids up and running asap. Not necessarily neccessary IMHO in our case.

But i can see that this kid in this time is going to be molded for long term success. He has something More to him.

And do the Bills really need to win now or develop the product into a solid piece of the puzzle or better

[....lybob]

Kolb will star,t how long depends on how reasonable the idea of being in the playoff hunt seems. . So how long Kolb stays in really depends on how long the Bills stay in the playoff race. My prediction would be Kolb starting 8-12 games then Manuel starting the last 4-8 games- overall I like the direction the Bills seem headed but last year I looked at them with my fan eye instead of my critical eye and it burned me, My fan eye likes the aggressive direction the Bills seem to be moving on both Offense and defense but my critical eye reminds me that a fast paced offense can just be quicker to three and out and that blitzes are often burned. My fan eye likes the talent brought in at WR and QB but my critical eye reminds me that with QB and WR it usually takes a couple seasons for production to match talent.

[3rdand12]

Fred Jackson is good at pass protection. Play action b.c of our dangerous backs is also good for the young QB.

I agree 100% about Fred. he takes care of his guy with the best of 'em plus all the other stuff he has done. Being able to run inside and out , catch react/read screen checkdown to etc. And CJ has come a long ways in PP.

Its the Oline i am most concerned about in regard to taking care of the QB for now.

But you are right. I want to see the kid (EJ ) well taken care of !

Edited June 18, 2013 by 3rdand12

[benderbender]

The first part of this thread:

It's June, yes, and we don't know this and that, and camp hasn't started, and pads and no pads and blah, blah, kaqeprjawpjcpaefjapeja.

Define kaqeprjawpjcpaefjapeja. The common sense response is Kolb as veteran gets the 1st shot, but given his history, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Manuel to out practice him. I wouldn't be worried at all about out OL and QB protection if we hadn't let Levitre and his backup walk.

 

Good thing is that half of the country doesn't care about Buffalo. And the other doesn't have high expectations. So if Kolb wins the starting job and screws up, the season just turns into the EJ experiment.

[Ralph W.]

I agree 100% about Fred. he takes care of his guy with the best of 'em plus all the other stuff he has done. Being able to run inside and out , catch react/read screen checkdown to etc. And CJ has come a long ways in PP.

Its the Oline i am most concerned about in regard to taking care of the QB for now.

But you are right. I want to see the kid (EJ ) well taken care of !

I am also a little worried about the O-Line but I am putting my faith in Marrone being a lineman that maybe it won't be bad just b.c he will know what they can/can't handle.

 

He seems to be hands on with that area more then others.

Edited June 18, 2013 by EJ3

[HamSandwhich]

OK that's just gross. But to answer the question (after flipping a coin), I think EJ is the day 1 starter. I like how he's not taking any time off - he's obviously all in and working to be the #1 right away.

 

Much like a green thumb means you know your way around gardening, green ears means you know your way around the football fields errrr, ur or something like that. I think.

 

Don't be a Tool (Tuel) just play like one!

 

See my next post (a few posts from the one you quoted)

[papazoid]

Kolb's incentive laden contract says EJ will be starting sooner rather than latter.

[bonechiller]

EJ - post over!

They gotta find out now or draft high enough to replace him next year.

[Fan in San Diego]

Without going into too much detail, my position is that unless EJ stinks it up in camp or during preseason the job is his to lose, not win. I can't imagine EJ and Kolb performing similarly and them giving the job to Kolb -- that's not why you draft a QB in the first round.

 

If Kolb clearly outperforms EJ in August then you have to determine if that's because EJ just needs some time to develop, or if you've made an error in your talent evaluation. Personally, I believe playing QB for a D-1 powerhouse for 2+ seasons qualifies as sufficient preparation to start in the NFL, and that's why I strongly believe EJ will be the opening day starter.

 

+1

[Gugny]

Nawwww...he has Shingles.

Having shingles sucks.

[OCinBuffalo]

But that would be "dodging"

No.

 

Dodging is threads about the #1 O line(analytically proven) from last year completely falling apart because it loses one guy.

Dodging is threads about doubting Fred Jackson, in any capacity.

Dodging is threads about " Steve Johnson, ".

 

.....when the major question at QB is the elephant, the room, the house, and the whole block. And in the past, dodging was "fire Lindell", when we had a serious QB question that nobody wanted to talk about.

 

...........................

 

If no one minds, I've summarized some criteria we have so far, and let's see if we agree:

 

1. EJM must perform at least = to Kolb, in order to start.

2. Kolb must prove that he's better, by a lot, than the guy who got beat out by Fordham guy, in order to start. Simply being as good, or just a little better, as EJM = see rule #1.

3. There is value in letting the vet take on the Pats in week 1, and if that's how it goes, it's not that important.

Alternate 3. EJM's draft value says he starts, barring obvious deficiencies in his play, and if there are, then that is important.

(I would think only one of these 3s is right. But you could take away some of the conditions, or change the importance)

4. We should place our faith in this coaching staff, as they know more, and have more info than us.

 

Now, I will add my 2:

 

1. EJM has to prove, in game, that he can in fact read the whole field. By that, I mean on a pass play that has 2 routs to the left, and both are covered, can he read the right side of the field, and hit that receiver. I think asking to see him do that 10x is asking too much. However, I would like to see it in multiple games, provided the conditions exist. Also, I think this is a realistic standard, as it is likely to occur fairly regularly in our 3 wide, at least, West Coast/K Gun offense. Oh, and btw, I am not making the assumption that Kolb does this, so, he has to show the same.

 

2. Both QBs have to show they can make all the throws. We can't lose half our playbook, like with Fitz(are you telling me Chan Gailey can't draw up a bomb?), because of lack of arm ability. Lot's of ways to do this. The most straightforward is simply to look at each throw: quality, distance, completion, WR F up, etc.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Gibran Hamdan looks like he might just sneak up on us this year...

[8-8 Forever?]

You don't draft a QB at 16th overall to sit on the bench and learn from someone of Kevin Kolb's caliber. You just don't.

 

EJ is the starter.

Probably, YES. Plus, my understanding is they wanted him well before the draft, so it isn't like it was "wow, EJ's there, we should think about taking him" .. they planned on getting him since before the combine, and traded back simply because they knew he would fall at least to 16, so they picked up another pick in the process as well. So, if he has the offense under his belt, he starts right away. Why not? Nothing to lose. Home field for first two games. No real expectations for this team this year, so this is the time if ever there was one. Just depends if he is competent in the offense by September. They will give him every chance. QB/HC/Staff all have 3 years to get it together, so lets start ASAP. Of course, if Ralph dies , its all in the crapper as a new owner will blow it all up yet again.

[Bufcomments]

Since they got rid of T-Jax they must think EJ has the tools to start, it just a matter of getting him ready. I don't think they drafted him to sit the bench.

 

Only way Kolb starts if he just has a monster preseason.

 

Everything changes once the pads go on. This will be a good battle.

[br1ju]

Does everyone understand that Kolb lost his job to John Skelton?

 

Not because of injury. After Arizona traded for Kolb in 2011, he was beaten out of his job in camp and preseason by a guy from Fordam University.

 

So after being the starter in 2011 he lost the job in 2012 and people think a rookie that started for two years at FSU can't beat this guy out.

 

 

I kept up with Arizona last year and saw how the whole QB drama unfolded. Based on pre-season performances they were pretty much even from a statistics persepective. Unfortunately, Whisenhunt was the most incompetent and indecisive coach I have ever seen and totally mishandled QB's which eventually lead to his departure. He did the same with Leinart and Kurt Warner. Anyways, Kolb and Skelton were 2 QB's with vastly different skill sets with Skelton being more suited for what Whiz was trying to do which is why Skelton was chosen. Needless to say, he got hurt in the first game only to be replaced by Kolb who led the Cardinals to 4-0.The biggest thing about Kolb in Arizona was that his skill set did not match what Whisenhunt was trying to do. It was maddening to watch Cardinals football. At one point Kolb did a no huddle play which resulted in a TD. Whisenhunt was seen screaming down the sideline to call off the play it seems before they scored. I honestly didn't think they were on the same page. He even alluded to Whisenhunt being set in his way at one point. Kurt Warner commented that Kolb has what it takes to be a starter in Arizona over Skelton. He knew how the offense worked and admitted that Kolb needed some time to learn the offense since he came in after the strike shortened season and was injured most of his first year. In retrospect, during the hurry up offense Kolb was pretty much spot on. The cardinals employed it when they were trying to play catch up and 3 things generally happened. Kolb would make a completion, get sacked or he would run away from pressure only to get sacked due to not only having a clueless coach but having the worst o-line in the NFL. From watching the games it was easy to see he enjoyed the no-huddle and was efficient at it when he wasn't eating grass. Whether it translates here it remains to be seen.

 

EJ is athletic and talented no doubt. He is no Cam Newton or RGIII so it will take some time for him to adjust. With those guys there was more of a consensus on their abilities. Not so much with EJ. No one will know how he will respond come game time. If he starts, the Patriots would be a good litmus test.

Edited June 19, 2013 by br1ju

[San Jose Bills Fan]

^^^^^^^^

The newbie with some good info (and well-written too).

[bigK14094]

Kolb is the starter unless EJ takes it away in training camp. Not sure he can do that yet.....a year from now, I think for sure, but today, still on the steep part of the learning curve. If the Bills can't win with Kolb, or Kolb gets hurt, then EJ can start with a little less pressure....and get ready to take over in year two. Aaron Rodgers sat behind Farve 3 years, and it didn't hurt him. Yeh, I know, Kolb is not Farve. I think there is a possibility the Kolb will surprise. He was killer at the beginning of last season for Ariz. If he can stay healthy, he could very well surprise.

[Doc]

Unless Kolb is clearly superior in pre-season, EJ starts. Kolb will be 29 in 2 months and is not the long term answer, and it's the first year of a new regime.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

This I will say.

 

Whomever starts will win the job fair and square.

 

Last week Marrone spoke very clearly about the importance of "the players seeing separation."

 

He knows the veterans need to be on board with the decision.

 

This will not be a Mularkey/Losman deal.

[Gugny]

I kept up with Arizona last year and saw how the whole QB drama unfolded. Based on pre-season performances they were pretty much even from a statistics persepective. Unfortunately, Whisenhunt was the most incompetent and indecisive coach I have ever seen and totally mishandled QB's which eventually lead to his departure. He did the same with Leinart and Kurt Warner. Anyways, Kolb and Skelton were 2 QB's with vastly different skill sets with Skelton being more suited for what Whiz was trying to do which is why Skelton was chosen. Needless to say, he got hurt in the first game only to be replaced by Kolb who led the Cardinals to 4-0.The biggest thing about Kolb in Arizona was that his skill set did not match what Whisenhunt was trying to do. It was maddening to watch Cardinals football. At one point Kolb did a no huddle play which resulted in a TD. Whisenhunt was seen screaming down the sideline to call off the play it seems before they scored. I honestly didn't think they were on the same page. He even alluded to Whisenhunt being set in his way at one point. Kurt Warner commented that Kolb has what it takes to be a starter in Arizona over Skelton. He knew how the offense worked and admitted that Kolb needed some time to learn the offense since he came in after the strike shortened season and was injured most of his first year. In retrospect, during the hurry up offense Kolb was pretty much spot on. The cardinals employed it when they were trying to play catch up and 3 things generally happened. Kolb would make a completion, get sacked or he would run away from pressure only to get sacked due to not only having a clueless coach but having the worst o-line in the NFL. From watching the games it was easy to see he enjoyed the no-huddle and was efficient at it when he wasn't eating grass. Whether it translates here it remains to be seen.

 

EJ is athletic and talented no doubt. He is no Cam Newton or RGIII so it will take some time for him to adjust. With those guys there was more of a consensus on their abilities. Not so much with EJ. No one will knows how he will respond come game time. If he starts, the Patriots would be a good litmus test.

 

Good post. But why do I continue to see Newton and Griffin being the benchmark for greatness? Newton has played two season; one very impressive and one horrible. Griffin has played one season and - I realize I'm in the minority - I don't think he showed any true greatness. Yes, he was a rookie and shouldn't be expected to show greatness. But let's let these guys - along with Luck, Wilson, Kaepernick, etc. - actually show some consistent, high-level, football, before we start saying we want EJ to be like them.

 

That said, EJ Manuel should be named the starter. He and Kolb should be told, simultaneously, that EJ is the starter for all 16 games unless he's injured. Let the kid take his lumps. Kolb took his and he never showed any signs that he was a long-term starter in the NFL. He had his chance. He failed.

[K-9]

This I will say.

 

Whomever starts will win the job fair and square.

 

Last week Marrone spoke very clearly about the importance of "the players seeing separation."

 

He knows the veterans need to be on board with the decision.

 

This will not be a Mularkey/Losman deal.

 

Amen to that! Mularkey fractured that locker room with that decision and lost a ton of credibility along the way.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[KeisterHollow]

I think the three biggest determining factors for Manuel starting will be: does he have a good enough grasp of the offense? Is he accurate on his passes, and does he go deep with accuracy? If Manuel can't do those things, then I think they let Kolb start the season. When I hear comparisons to Cam Newton, though, I get SUPER psyched for this offense - that kind of QB is a game changer (imagine how hard it'd be to defend against Spiller, our new group of WR's, if you have a big, mobile, ACCURATE passer who can just as easily run the ball 5 yards as throw it 15).

[Doc]

I think the three biggest determining factors for Manuel starting will be: does he have a good enough grasp of the offense? Is he accurate on his passes, and does he go deep with accuracy? If Manuel can't do those things, then I think they let Kolb start the season. When I hear comparisons to Cam Newton, though, I get SUPER psyched for this offense - that kind of QB is a game changer (imagine how hard it'd be to defend against Spiller, our new group of WR's, if you have a big, mobile, ACCURATE passer who can just as easily run the ball 5 yards as throw it 15).

This post answers your questions regarding deep ball accuracy. As for grasp of the offense, that will take time. But they don't have to throw the kitchen sink at him and can work him in slowly.

[Luxy312]

IMO, it's EJ's job to lose and not Kolb's job to win. I think if EJ shows that he understands the playbook and gets some of his footwork issues worked out, that he will be the week 1 guy. If he doesn't or stumbles through camp and the preseason, then I think Kolb will clearly be the starter in week 1. Now this question doesn't speak to down the road of course. Let's say Kolb wins the first 4/5 games of the season. Would the coaching staff make a switch? Doubtful. EJ at that point could be holding the clip board until at least the end of the year, ala that "decent" QB in Green Bay. LOL.

[simpleman]

 

to start the process early, and figure out the criteria, that we can all agree on, that should determine the starter.

 

I don't care what position they were drafted in, or what they have done before this year. I only care what they do on the field in the here and now. My criteria is whomever shows the greatest potential to win the game on the field during the regular season based on their performance between now and the NE game . Yes we all want EJ to be our savior, and most believe he has the most upside. I think few view Kolb as the future of the Bills like we hope EJ will become, but there is plenty of time for EJ to prove himself before January. But I want the QB to start the season who gives the Bills the best chance to win the games before the bye week. After bye week, if the Bills are not in the hunt for the post season, if the coaching staff feels EJ is ready and is not already starting, then it will be time to see if he is the future. Or if it is time to start evaluating the top QBs in the 2014 draft.

[Buftex]

EJ should and will be the opening day starter.

[C-Man]

Kolb. I don't see any evidence that EJ is ready.

[Gugny]

Kolb. I don't see any evidence that EJ is ready.

But we have seen plenty of evidence that Kolb sucks.

 

I'd rather take a gamble on the unknown than to put a person who is absolutely certain to suck in. We did that for the last 3 years with the other career backup. No thanks.

[eball]

Kolb. I don't see any evidence that EJ is ready.

 

Do you see any evidence that EJ is not ready?

[Luxy312]

Kolb. I don't see any evidence that EJ is ready.

 

I don't see any greater evidence that Kolb is ready. He got benched in favor of a 5th round draft pick. Your argument goes in circles all by itself. LOL.

[Mickey]

Any answer is pointless. A couple of reports on OTAs and a video highlight or two isn't enough for a real opinion. Shot in the dark says ej

 

This.

 

This really isn't all that hard to figure out. Unless EJ rips it up in pre-season or the vet stinks it up, the vet starts until hurt or until he plays himself right off the field. Then EJ starts.

[PromoTheRobot]

EJ will be the starter, even if he is only halfway ready. Better he learn on the job. Kolb will start only if EJ is in over his head.

 

PTR

[Ralph W.]

If you ask EJ who he resembles he will tell you Big Ben. EJ watches film of Big Ben says he plays a lot like him. He loves how Ben can escape from sacks all while looking down field the entire time to find and make the play. That is who I also think EJ is like. I don't understand the Newton/RGIII references but ask the kid himself and he says Big Ben.