Traditional vs. 'Modern Day' X Receiver

[BabyBills]

I'm hoping that those better versed in the schematics of football can help me understand something - whether we should want a traditional or 'modern day' X receiver to replace Diggs.  I suspect in Brady's system that all X receivers will need to: 1) be able to win on all 3 levels of the field and 2) create the separation that Josh likes to see.

 

My understanding is that traditional X receivers use, at minimum, play strength and size to beat press coverage and the leverage employed by CBs.  In this draft, Marvin Harrison Jr., Rome Odunze, Brian Thomas Jr., Adonai Mitchell, and Xaiver Legette seem to fit this mold.

 

I believe 'modern day' X receivers, however, use a combination of speed, suddenness, and/or release packages to do the same.  If this understanding is correct, I'd put Diggs in the 'modern day' mold, as well as draft prospects Malik Nabers, Ladd McConkey, Ricky Pearsall and Roman Wilson. 

 

When I hear folks advocate for Xaiver Legette or Brian Thomas Jr., it's unclear to me if they are saying "traditional X receivers are simply superior to 'modern day' X receivers" or if they think that Legette and Thomas kill two birds with one stone - they can be capable X receivers who can also take the top off of defenses, which is something we are losing, in part, with the loss of Davis.

 

Any light you can share would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[gonzo1105]

In a traditional play structure the “Z” receiver will line up to the offenses strength whether right or left. 
 

The “X” receiver in a traditional sense is on the weak side and usually is more isolated away from coverage. In a traditional sense this WR is more likely to see 1 on 1 opportunities because of this hence the bigger wide body taller person who is more likely to win contested receptions. 
 

I think this is outdated but that’s traditionally how it works 

[mrags]

The more I think about this, the more I think that if the Bills don’t trade up and stay at 28 they will be taking Worthy. 

[BuffaloBill]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

The more I think about this, the more I think that if the Bills don’t trade up and stay at 28 they will be taking Worthy. 

 

 

I really hope not. Small guys like him just tend to end up injured in the NFL.  Obviously everyone is enamored with the speed but I just don’t see him being more than a gadget guy receiver.

[Warriorspikes51]

11 minutes ago, mrags said:

The more I think about this, the more I think that if the Bills don’t trade up and stay at 28 they will be taking Worthy. 

 

I'd be perfectly good with this.... IF we then trade up for Xavier Legette 

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

I really hope not. Small guys like him just tend to end up injured in the NFL.  Obviously everyone os enamored with the speed but I just don’t see him being more than a gadget guy receiver.

 

except....he's not a gadget guy.  He runs legit routes and creates a lot of separation with his ability.....

 

 

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

13 minutes ago, mrags said:

The more I think about this, the more I think that if the Bills don’t trade up and stay at 28 they will be taking Worthy. 

Cosell said he sees Thomas and AD Mitchell as guys who will develop  into #1 WR's.  BUT.... there is no denying the pure speed of Worthy.  I don't know if we need a true X in the form of size. We just need guys who can beat man coverage, create space and catch the ball consistently. A guy can be 5'11 and 190lbs and do that esp if he has a good Vertical for contested balls. 

[Warriorspikes51]

1 minute ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Cosell said he sees Thomas and AD Mitchell as guys who will develop  into #1 WR's.  BUT.... there is no denying the pure speed of Worthy.  I don't know if we need a true X in the form of size. We just need guys who can beat man coverage, create space and catch the ball consistently. A guy can be 5'11 and 190lbs and do that esp if he has a good Vertical for contested balls. 

IMO we need both 

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

I really hope not. Small guys like him just tend to end up injured in the NFL.  Obviously everyone os enamored with the speed but I just don’t see him being more than a gadget guy receiver.

Generally I agree with you on this. I’ve never been a fan of smaller, skinny WRs. I’m just going by what I think the Bills will do. He’s got the speed and ability to get open on short routes, as well as deep routes. I just feel like they will see that as too good to pass up. 

 

3 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

I'd be perfectly good with this.... IF we then trade up for Xavier Legette 

This is where I’m at with it possibly. I’d be perfectly fine if they took Worthy if they then double dipped fairly early for a bigger, physical WR. 
 

Legette

Polk

McMillan

Walker

Burton

 

 

[Warriorspikes51]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Generally I agree with you on this. I’ve never been a fan of smaller, skinny WRs. I’m just going by what I think the Bills will do. He’s got the speed and ability to get open on short routes, as well as deep routes. I just feel like they will see that as too good to pass up. 

 

This is where I’m at with it possibly. I’d be perfectly fine if they took Worthy if they then double dipped fairly early for a bigger, physical WR. 
 

Legette

Polk

McMillan

Walker

Burton

 

 

 

Yes, Worthy is maybe the most explosive player in the draft besides possibly Nabers.  Beane and Sean have been focused on explosiveness 

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Cosell said he sees Thomas and AD Mitchell as guys who will develop  into #1 WR's.  BUT.... there is no denying the pure speed of Worthy.  I don't know if we need a true X in the form of size. We just need guys who can beat man coverage, create space and catch the ball consistently. A guy can be 5'11 and 190lbs and do that esp if he has a good Vertical for contested balls. 

Yup. Agree with that. It’s talk like this where hat brings me back to Robert Foster having an amazing half season. Diggs when he first started. John Brown. None of these guys were very big and physical but they made it work with what they had. Diggs is different he’s just an amazing Rt runner. But he was faster a few years ago than he is now. Foster and Brown however were all speed. And it worked. 

Just now, Warriorspikes51 said:

 

Yes, Worthy is maybe the most explosive player in the draft besides possibly Nabers.  Beane and Sean have been focused on explosiveness 

I like Odunze more than Nabors personally. If he was there after 10 I’d be looking for trade partners. Thomas I like as early as 18-20 but feel like you have ti watch out for Cincy so you’ll have to move up before then at 16 or so imo. 

[GunnerBill]

Yea in the traditional sense it is slightly outdated. I prefer to talk about "outside downfield" receivers - which means guys who can get off press,  have the speed win down the field and make contested catches - and "move" receivers who are more like your traditional Z receiver but who you actively want to move around the formation looking for mismatches. They are ideally a bit more shifty than long strider, good route runners, and have some YAC capability. 

 

That doesn't mean you never run a go route with your move receiver and it doesn't mean you never put your downfield guy in the slot or at flanker (traditional Z)... but in terms of building a WR corps with complimentary skillsets I'm still looking for guys who fit broadly into those categories. 

 

The Bills are a good example of the contradiction in using the old fashioned terms in that Diggs played X a lot for us but he was really the move receiver. Davis was more the outside downfield guy. 

[Warriorspikes51]

putting Worthy and Samuel in motion could be trouble for defenses.... but we also need size. 

[billsbackto81]

30 minutes ago, mrags said:

The more I think about this, the more I think that if the Bills don’t trade up and stay at 28 they will be taking Worthy. 

Worthy is a complimentary piece, not a primary #1 WR you're depending on. Name a #1 "go to" WR in NFL that's 5'11" 165lb 

 

Jmho....

Edited April 8 by billsbackto81

[mrags]

8 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

Worthy is a complimentary piece, not a primary #1 WR you're depending on. Name a #1 "go to" WR in NFL that's 5'11" 165lb 

 

Jmho....

I never said there was. I’m simply expressing what I think Bills brass is thinking 

[Mat68]

Basically, they need a player that can line up outside on the line more than 50% of the time.  Easiest thought process is that a big body wr does it best.  And adds jump ball capabilities.  Reality is there are multiple ways to win outside and size is the least effective way.  
 

Lets look at an extreme example.  Cole Beasley.  He excelled in the slot because of his quickness and route running.  Why he didnt excel outside because after the initial burst he didnt posses the speed to run away from coverage.  Desean Jackson wasnt much bigger but his speed allowed him to operate outside.  Michael Thomas and Marquise Colston where large bodies but similar to Beasley didnt have the speed so where more effective in the slot.  
 

Harrison, Nabers, Udunze, Thomas Jr, Mitchell, and Leggette all have the average or above average Height and weight while also having the speed and explosion to threaten deep.  My concern is getting stuck on size and missing the second part which is explosion and speed.  

[SoonerBillsFan]

31 minutes ago, mrags said:

Yup. Agree with that. It’s talk like this where hat brings me back to Robert Foster having an amazing half season. Diggs when he first started. John Brown. None of these guys were very big and physical but they made it work with what they had. Diggs is different he’s just an amazing Rt runner. But he was faster a few years ago than he is now. Foster and Brown however were all speed. And it worked. 

I like Odunze more than Nabors personally. If he was there after 10 I’d be looking for trade partners. Thomas I like as early as 18-20 but feel like you have ti watch out for Cincy so you’ll have to move up before then at 16 or so imo. 

I agree on I liking Odunze more than Nabors. If he is available at 9, then Beane should at least call Chicago.

[LABILLBACKER]

43 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Cosell said he sees Thomas and AD Mitchell as guys who will develop  into #1 WR's.  BUT.... there is no denying the pure speed of Worthy.  I don't know if we need a true X in the form of size. We just need guys who can beat man coverage, create space and catch the ball consistently. A guy can be 5'11 and 190lbs and do that esp if he has a good Vertical for contested balls. 

Unfortunately and historically the 5-11 / 190 guy is far more susceptible to injury like Marguise Goodwin.  Give me all day long the bigger, stronger wr who still has sub 4.4 speed like Thomas or Mitchell. 

Edited April 8 by LABILLBACKER

[SoonerBillsFan]

1 minute ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Unfortunately and historically the 5-11 / 190 guy is far more susceptible to injury like Marguise Goodwin.  Give me all day long the bigger, stronger wr who still has sub 4.4 speed like Thomas or Mitchell. 

I get what you are saying but Diggs and Jefferson are 6'0 even and they had no issues. and BTW Marguise Goodwin is 5'9" 185 tops as was Beasly.

[mrags]

10 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I get what you are saying but Diggs and Jefferson are 6'0 even and they had no issues. and BTW Marguise Goodwin is 5'9" 185 tops as was Beasly.

 

12 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Unfortunately and historically the 5-11 / 190 guy is far more susceptible to injury like Marguise Goodwin.  Give me all day long the bigger, stronger wr who still has sub 4.4 speed like Thomas or Mitchell. 

Believe me. I’ve never been a fan of the smaller skinnier WR. Hated them going back before Roscoe Parrish who could never stay healthy. My wrists were wider than his calves. I am just thinking what I feel the Bills might do 

[SoonerBillsFan]

11 minutes ago, mrags said:

 

Believe me. I’ve never been a fan of the smaller skinnier WR. Hated them going back before Roscoe Parrish who could never stay healthy. My wrists were wider than his calves. I am just thinking what I feel the Bills might do 

I'm with you Bills Brother.  Mitchell and Thomas JR are over 6' and at 200lbs which works.  I like Franklin, buy would like him more with  10 more lbs on his frame.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I'd like some level of elite traits.  Size for jump balls and radius for josh allens... we'll call it "inconsistent" ball placement.  Speed to create deep separation.  Elite ball tracking on deep balls.  Something that isnt just - he does a lot of stuff well.  

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

I'd like some level of elite traits.  Size for jump balls and radius for josh allens... we'll call it "inconsistent" ball placement.  Speed to create deep separation.  Elite ball tracking on deep balls.  Something that isnt just - he does a lot of stuff well.  

 

The bolded is AD Mitchell IMO. He is the classic he does a lot of stuff well, but I am not sure what the special trait is.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

The bolded is AD Mitchell IMO. He is the classic he does a lot of stuff well, but I am not sure what the special trait is.

 

yeah - at 28 i don't hate that because you can potentially move them into a #2 type role target-wise and they'll continue to be a good player while you chase traits either next year or with a later pick.  I'm just reluctant to go fishing for that guy.   

[billsbackto81]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

I never said there was. I’m simply expressing what I think Bills brass is thinking 

God I hope not bud. Most of his highlights are on a clean release off the LOS.

 

Last thing I want is a primary receiver who can't beat a bump and run or physical DB because he's too light in the arse and can't fight for position and contested catches.

 

I do believe he can thrive but it'll have to be in an offensive scheme where he's not the focus.

[Solomon Grundy]

6 hours ago, mrags said:

The more I think about this, the more I think that if the Bills don’t trade up and stay at 28 they will be taking Worthy. 

Maybe put out some fake news and say he was in the car with Sweat so he can drop in the draft too😎

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

There are three Alpha dog receivers with elite traits in this draft. The Bills brass and everyone else knows who they are. The question is can we can get one somehow this draft because they incredibly rare- think Jamar Chase. The rest of the Wrs in this draft look much better as a complement to the  big dogs. The BIlls of course need 2 receivers this draft, I'm hoping an Alpha and one of the next tier guys. With 2 guys on rookie contracts we are ready to roll for awhile.

Edited April 9 by D. L. Hot-Flamethrower

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Maybe put out some fake news and say he was in the car with Sweat so he can drop in the draft too😎

lol. If worthy does go before we pick it will be glorious. 
 

1st, we won’t end up with him 

 

2nd, it will make someone else available 

[Rockinon]

I think that Diggs was not a traditional X receiver and that role was more in line with what Davis did for the team. Diggs played some X but he made his money by being a move receiver. A lot of it has to do with coaching too. All receivers must have a pretty extensive route tree or they don't make it on this team. The route concepts have all of the receivers running different kinds of routes from play to play.  Sometimes lining up on the opposite side, sometimes it's a bunch formation. We wanted Davis to run more routes but he seemed to only excel at deep routes and even then the consistency wasn't there.

 

I tend to think that defenses did a great job of taking away the deep routes and forced Josh to hit shorter routes and run the ball more. Even though Diggs wasn't a tradition X, he was still #1 WR on this team.  I look at receivers like Tyreek Hill, who is only 5'10" 191 lbs and he is a #1 WR. It seems today's #1s come in a lot of sizes. I believe speed is desirable along with separation ability and perhaps most importantly an ability to catch almost anything thrown their way. Doesn't matter how big they are as long as they can produce. 

 

I would love to see more seam routes for our TEs. Keep those safeties in the middle of the field covering them and leaving boundary WRs 1 on 1. Or using a TE to cut short toward the sideline while a WR is running deep over the top of him.  Make those safeties guess on every passing down. Don't let them sit back and take the deep ball away all game. Make one come up into the box.  I think Buffalo has some great route concepts, but couldn't expand because of limited ability. Pretty sure the draft will address some of these issues.

 

Be prepared for a lot of presnap motion under Brady. Hope he doesn't get too gadgety....haha. At the same time, I'm anxious to see what he draws up. I'm not sure a tradition X is what gives us the boost we need. It will be a team effort though that takes us over the top. A stud X might be it or maybe not. Might be more of a Diggs 2.0, or a Hill 2.0. A big X that catches more than Davis is certainly a boost but is it a replacement for Diggs production? Going to be an interesting year for sure. Just hope whoever they get is worthy.

[LeGOATski]

All I know is that the Bills need a "traditional" if they want to add some variety to this WR corps.

Dalton Kincaid is supposed to be our "move" tight end, also....

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

There are three Alpha dog receivers with elite traits in this draft. The Bills brass and everyone else knows who they are. The question is can we can get one somehow this draft because they incredibly rare- think Jamar Chase. The rest of the Wrs in this draft look much better as a complement to the  big dogs. The BIlls of course need 2 receivers this draft, I'm hoping an Alpha and one of the next tier guys. With 2 guys one rookie contracts we are ready to roll for awhile.

Don't think they need two in this draft. They need to land one "alpha," as you put it. They already have 4 other starters catching the other passes (Kincaid, Jimbo, Samuel, Shakir....and also Knox...). If they draft another receiver late and he turns out good, that would be icing on the cake, but not a need.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, LeGOATski said:

Don't think they need two in this draft. They need to land one "alpha," as you put it. They already have 4 other starters catching the other passes (Kincaid, Jimbo, Samuel, Shakir....and also Knox...). If they draft another receiver late and he turns out good, that would be icing on the cake, but not a need.

Did you think they needed one before Diggs was traded, or were you content to take a late round receiver? Because otherwise, I think trading Diggs implies two is better than one. 

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

Did you think they needed one before Diggs was traded, or were you content to take a late round receiver? Because otherwise, I think trading Diggs implies two is better than one. 

No, it was either keep Diggs and add a guy like Samuel, or upgrade from Diggs and add a guy like Samuel.

[Capco]

The way I've always thought of it:

-the X receiver excels in the vertical dimension (hitches, go routes, fades)
-the Y receiver excels in the horizontal dimension (drags, crosses, ins and outs)

-the Z receiver excels in both dimensions (aka "the true #1")

[Dr. Who]

3 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

No, it was either keep Diggs and add a guy like Samuel, or upgrade from Diggs and add a guy like Samuel.

I don't see Samuel as a Davis replacement, so I don't see that move as addressing the loss of the boundary receiver, or now Diggs.

Unless you think Shakir can take over for Davis, I think you still need two.

[appoo]

12 hours ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

I'd like some level of elite traits.  Size for jump balls and radius for josh allens... we'll call it "inconsistent" ball placement.  Speed to create deep separation.  Elite ball tracking on deep balls.  Something that isnt just - he does a lot of stuff well.  

These kinds of dudes are rare - but probably super valuable here, given what else is on the roster. Think DK Metcalf.  
 

What’s interesting is that in the modern game they’re probably not gonna really reach elite status and they’re fairly limited in what they can do. Like DK won’t run routes that require sharp cuts. He runs posts, flys, crossers, and deep outs.  That’s gonna be Justin Shorter as well. 
 

Jahan Dotson probably profiles as your average X these days. 6-1, and he wins with quickness and moves and route running rather than physicality 

[appoo]

36 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I don't see Samuel as a Davis replacement, so I don't see that move as addressing the loss of the boundary receiver, or now Diggs.

Unless you think Shakir can take over for Davis, I think you still need two.

We need two because you can’t put that much pressure on Shakir to be a borderline all pro. 
 

In the past the bills could get away with just 5 WRs because of how good Diggs and Davis were. They’re gonna need 6 or 7 IMO 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, appoo said:

These kinds of dudes are rare - but probably super valuable here, given what else is on the roster. Think DK Metcalf.  
 

What’s interesting is that in the modern game they’re probably not gonna really reach elite status and they’re fairly limited in what they can do. Like DK won’t run routes that require sharp cuts. He runs posts, flys, crossers, and deep outs.  That’s gonna be Justin Shorter as well. 
 

Jahan Dotson probably profiles as your average X these days. 6-1, and he wins with quickness and moves and route running rather than physicality 

 

He definitely profiles as average......

[ProcessTruster]

Modern NFL offenses are less rigid on roles than they once were.   Bills have TEs and RBs who can play the X, WRs who can run the ball, Slots who can X, etc.  Scheme it up and throw it to the guy with the mismatch, Josh.    All this X, Y and Z stuff is much less relevant in today's NFL.   With Josh's arm, give me guys who can separate and catch and I'm good.  

[SoCal Deek]

Regardless of what you call these guys, every team needs a variety of possession receivers who can separate quickly, with good hands to catch the contested balls that naturally come from shorter routes. (Diggs)
 

Next, every team needs at least one guy who can stretch the defense deep (even if they rarely throw it to him). Someone who can keep the safeties from crowding the line. (Davis)

 

Finally, every team needs a crafty possession receiver in the slot who’s not afraid to go over the middle for a few short yards when you absolutely have to move the chains. (Beasley)
 

Do the Bills currently have all three? If so, who are they? And more importantly if they don’t who’s the rookie to fill the specific hole? 

Edited April 9 by SoCal Deek

[Mikey152]

Modern day? Alignment rules are alignment rules...

 

You need an eligible receiver on each side of the line of scrimmage. They can be close to the ball (tight) or far (split). Either way, they have to line up on scrimmage, which means they cannot be in motion at the snap and the defense can touch them immediately upon the snap...so press man is always an option for covering them. Because of those realities, you'd like your ends to be able to hold up physically.

 

Because tight ends play often play in line and block LB and DL, it is obvious that they should be bigger. Split Ends, on the other hand, usually only have to fight off CB so "bigger" is relative and there is probably a point where they can be too big, especially if it inhibits their explosiveness after the initial 5 yards.

 

Flat out, it is hard to scheme open a split end. If the defense wants to play press man, you can't really stop it. So the most valuable guys at that spot are guys that don't need a scheme to help them get open against any kind of coverage...and those guys tend to be big and fast because they need to be physical and explosive, depending on the coverage. If they aren't physical enough to get off a press, or not explosive enough to eat up a cushion, well then they can be taken away easily and your offense loses a target and that player is kind of a waste.

 

Side note...this is one of the underrated aspects of a two TE offense where both TE are effective pass catchers...it negates the need for a true Split end if both TE line up on the ball...the rest of you eligible receivers no longer have to and you take away their ability to press man on the outside if you want.

Edited April 9 by Mikey152