PSL Pricing/Seat Selection Discussion

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

#1 - Yes, it would be zero.

 

#2 - I ran the math on this earlier. PSL value will be approximately 1/4 of what owners paid within 5 years of ownership. This could potentially change if the team wins a SB the year before you sell your tickets, but you would need that luck to cause a temporary spike.

Anyone looking at a PSL as some type of investment opportunity is probably checking out bridges in the Jersey swamplands too. 

[Einstein]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

Anyone looking at a PSL as some type of investment opportunity is probably checking out bridges in the Jersey swamplands too. 

Agreed with you there my friend. 

[Boatdrinks]

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

There are several ways people deal with adversity. Some people fight back. Some people disengage. And some people cope with it by rationalizing. "Yeah, they're charging a lot of money. But that's the business. The NFL has changed. We must understand. etc"

Rationalization is a defense mechanism in which controversial situations are justified and explained in a seemingly rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation, and thereby make them appear less threatening. Some people will rationalize the PSL's which double dip on taxpayers by attributing them to broader, understandable business practices and changes within the NFL, suggesting that such changes are inevitable and should be accepted.

There is a bit of stockholm syndrome mixed in.

 

I haven't seen anyone in this thread who is shocked, stunned or surprise. Everyone knew it was coming. Some are pointing out the inequity in it. Thats not a sign of being surprised - its a sign of evaluating the situation for what it is. 

Of course there is “ inequity”. That shouldn’t be a surprise. Seeing the reality for what it is - reality is not “ coping” or rationalizing or any other psychobabble that you want to throw in there. It’s simply having a brain and seeing things for what they are. The world isn’t perfect. The other option was the team leaves. Neither is a perfect choice, but few things ever are. Some would prefer that the State, County etc “ save” the money and waste it on something else. I’m not one of them. The perfect third option just doesn’t exist, no matter how much anyone wishes it did. 

Edited April 3 by Boatdrinks

[Einstein]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

Of course there is “ inequity”. That shouldn’t be a surprise. 

Again, no one that I have seen is really "surprised". We are simply talking about the reality of the situation now that it is officially here (we have the official numbers for some sections).

While we do that, many posters are making it their job to defend, defend, defend the Bills. That's not simply discussing the reality. That's Rationalization with a dash of Stockholm. These posters have a compulsion to defend.

[WotAGuy]

4 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Of course there is “ inequity”. That shouldn’t be a surprise. Seeing the reality for what it is - reality is not “ coping” or rationalizing or any other psychobabble that you want to throw in there. It’s simply having a brain and seeing things for what they are. The world isn’t perfect. 

Agreed.  I prefer acceptance of reality and planning to deal with reality than whining and complaining and feeling like I’m being persecuted.  
 

I think some people in this thread saw what was coming and are not surprised and are accepting reality.  That doesn’t mean we condone what is happening. 
 

The people being blindsided are those that are reading about 50k PSLs and extrapolating that to the entire stadium - especially STHs in the best 100 level seats that weren’t “club” seats, but now apparently will be. Those people are understandably worried about their ability to continue to be STHs at the same seating arrangement. That will all be revealed shortly. 
 

Then there are those that just want to slap their ***** around trying to garner attention and pretend to be a big boy/girl/other. 🤣

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Again, no one that I have seen is really "surprised". We are simply talking about the reality of the situation now that it is officially here (we have the official numbers for some sections).

While we do that, many posters are making it their job to defend, defend, defend the Bills. That's not simply discussing the reality. That's Rationalization with a dash of Stockholm. These posters have a compulsion to defend.

The fact you conflate explanations with defending proves the persecution complex going on here. 

[nucci]

22 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Anyone looking at a PSL as some type of investment opportunity is probably checking out bridges in the Jersey swamplands too. 

I don't think anyone is thinking that

[Jrb1979]

9 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

Agreed.  I prefer acceptance of reality and planning to deal with reality than whining and complaining and feeling like I’m being persecuted.  
 

I think some people in this thread saw what was coming and are not surprised and are accepting reality.  That doesn’t mean we condone what is happening. 
 

The people being blindsided are those that are reading about 50k PSLs and extrapolating that to the entire stadium - especially STHs in the best 100 level seats that weren’t “club” seats, but now apparently will be. Those people are understandably worried about their ability to continue to be STHs at the same seating arrangement. That will all be revealed shortly. 
 

Then there are those that just want to slap their ***** around trying to garner attention and pretend to be a big boy/girl/other. 🤣

The fact you conflate explanations with defending proves the persecution complex going on here. 

Then there are those who think the PSLs are going to drop to $1000 to $2000 a seat at the low end. Face it the plebs will no longer be able to afford to go. 

[GottaRun]

59 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Let them buy them first, and then scoop them up for pennys on the dollar in a few years.

If your only focus is profit and loss then your take is fine.  Some of us want to be there for the first season the stadium is open, and that has value to us. 

 

You don't have unlimited years to live your life, two or three years sitting at home are two or three years you're not watching Bills games live.  If Bills games live are a  persons favorite thing in life why would they skip that for the cost of a few bucks extra every game? (PSL spread out over several years)

[WotAGuy]

3 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

Then there are those who think the PSLs are going to drop to $1000 to $2000 a seat at the low end. Face it the plebs will no longer be able to afford to go. 

Maybe not as STHs, but they will be there.  They find a way to travel all over the country to go to games, they will continue to go to games here too. 

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

Maybe not as STHs, but they will be there.  They find a way to travel all over the country to go to games, they will continue to go to games here too. 

Exactly. The NFL went upscale years ago. Compare a Super Bowl ticket today to the 90’s SB Bills games. It’s in another universe. 

[Einstein]

11 minutes ago, GottaRun said:

If your only focus is profit and loss then your take is fine.  Some of us want to be there for the first season the stadium is open, and that has value to us. 

 

You don't have unlimited years to live your life, two or three years sitting at home are two or three years you're not watching Bills games live.  If Bills games live are a  persons favorite thing in life why would they skip that for the cost of a few bucks extra every game? (PSL spread out over several years)

 

That’s an absolutely fair take to have.

I respect it.

[Einstein]

29 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

 

The fact you conflate explanations with defending proves the persecution complex going on here. 

 

 

Oh, you were “explaining” all this time while you were mocking me with equation talk and memes and images. Now I understand. 

 

Youre not explaining anything. You’re defending to n’th degree and if that means you have to ridicule someone, so be it.

[WotAGuy]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

 

Oh, you were “explaining” all this time while you were mocking me with equation talk and memes and images. Now I understand. 

 

Youre not explaining anything. You’re defending to n’th degree and if that means you have to ridicule someone, so be it.

I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings.  Honestly.
 

You seemed to be rather like Spock in being very logical and dispassionate, except you would throw out a crack about the org chart and condescending statistical nonsense, so I figured you were up for some ribbing.  

If anything I said was hurtful, I apologize. Apparently I took it too far and I’m sorry about that. 
 

I do like you Einstein. You bring a fun element to the board and its posters like you that make this a fun place to waste time. 
 

I appreciate you. 

[Virgil]

With Diggs gone, I think the Bills should trade Josh.  Then the PSL and seat prices have to come down.  Win win

[Einstein]

41 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings.  Honestly.
 

You seemed to be rather like Spock in being very logical and dispassionate, except you would throw out a crack about the org chart and condescending statistical nonsense, so I figured you were up for some ribbing.  

If anything I said was hurtful, I apologize. Apparently I took it too far and I’m sorry about that. 
 

I do like you Einstein. You bring a fun element to the board and its posters like you that make this a fun place to waste time. 
 

I appreciate you. 

 

Thank you. I appreciate that nice post.

 

As for the org chart, I often fail at humor. Things I find funny, most don’t. It’s a flaw of mine.

 

And then sometimes i’ll post or say something that people find hilarious and i’ll spend 20 minutes analyzing it, trying to figure out what I said that was funny. Go figure!

 

For the record I found the image of the equation jumbles you posted quite humorous. I don’t mind ribbing as long as I know that it’s not meant to insult.

Edited April 3 by Einstein

[zevo]

I haven’t gone through this thread but I just heard 14% financing through MT bank. Lmfao

[Kirby Jackson]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

Again, no one that I have seen is really "surprised". We are simply talking about the reality of the situation now that it is officially here (we have the official numbers for some sections).

While we do that, many posters are making it their job to defend, defend, defend the Bills. That's not simply discussing the reality. That's Rationalization with a dash of Stockholm. These posters have a compulsion to defend.

Your options are “have an NFL team” and “do business as NFL teams do” or “not have an NFL team.” Those are the options. Cursing the system isn’t going to solve this issue. The demand, ratings and revenue that the NFL is getting now makes it more expensive to play. That’s what it IS. No one wants to pay an additional $40k to buy 2 seats that they have now. To some people it is worth it to continue attending Bills games. It’s not up to anyone else to tell someone what to do with their money. This is the system. You either get on board or your team ends up in LA or Vegas. 

2 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

Then there are those who think the PSLs are going to drop to $1000 to $2000 a seat at the low end. Face it the plebs will no longer be able to afford to go. 

They will. 

[Augie]

2 hours ago, GottaRun said:

If your only focus is profit and loss then your take is fine.  Some of us want to be there for the first season the stadium is open, and that has value to us. 

 

You don't have unlimited years to live your life, two or three years sitting at home are two or three years you're not watching Bills games live.  If Bills games live are a  persons favorite thing in life why would they skip that for the cost of a few bucks extra every game? (PSL spread out over several years)

 

Exactly! It’s YOUR life, and it’s YOUR money.  Use it as you wish, and be thankful that things like this don’t get you worked up enough that you keep telling other people how awful it is. Yes, it’s more. Decide and move on. 

[WotAGuy]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

Thank you. I appreciate that nice post.

 

As for the org chart, I often fail at humor. Things I find funny, most don’t. It’s a flaw of mine.

 

And then sometimes i’ll post or say something that people find hilarious and i’ll spend 20 minutes analyzing it, trying to figure out what I said that was funny. Go figure!

 

For the record I found the image of the equation jumbles you posted quite humorous. I don’t mind ribbing as long as I know that it’s not meant to insult.

 

I gotta tell you, I had to show my wife the org chart comment because it really was hilarious. Well done. 
 

And you will forever be in TSW lore for posting your tax return.  
 

That was retatta-level genius. 

[PBF81]

3 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Anyone looking at a PSL as some type of investment opportunity is probably checking out bridges in the Jersey swamplands too. 

 

Especially if they're looking at that like that while the market is high.  

 

It's understandable that they'll sell out while Allen's here, but for drought era performance it's questionable.  

 

The whole Diggs thing likely hasn't helped either.  Not saying it's hurt, but thinking that it's helped isn't wise.  

 

 

[reddogblitz]

8 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

As much as I don't agree with what they are doing, I do hope that by doing this it forces change to what goes on during tailgating. I hope it ends the drunkenness, the table slamming and condiment guys. It becomes more of a corporate feel and less a college feel to it. It's why I wanted a stadium downtown. It would have made tailgating much smaller and guaranteed the end of the those things 

 

That's A big part of this.  Price out the riff raff.  And Get a higher cla$$ of fans.  

[Albanybillsbacker]

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

That's A big part of this.  Price out the riff raff.  And Get a higher cla$$ of fans.  

Yeah, rich people don't drink and get rowdy. 

 

[npeartisgod]

Why are folks acting like pub financing is new or unique? 
 

2004: In April, the Cowboys announced plans to build a $650 million stadium at Fair Park in Dallas. The deal required $425 million in public financing from a 3% hotel-occupancy tax and a 6% car-rental tax.

[reddogblitz]

Well, the wife and I, after she attended a call with the Bills ticket rep yesterday, have decided to pass.

 

She has been a season ticket holder since 1987.  When they remodeled her seats went away so she upgraded to club seats in 1999. she moved to Dallas which is where I met her and why I have been a Bills fan since 1996. She kept her tickets and we would fly in for a couple of games a year. She sold (took a bath during the drought) the others.  When they were raising money by selling Engraved paver stones at The Ralph located by the Bills store we bought one in honor of our son who was a huge Bills fan who is no longer with us.

 

We could certainly afford it but it just feels like we've been super loyal to the Bills For 37 years.  Now they are telling us to bend over and drop our wallet or go away.   Loyalty is a 2 way street.

 

We decided to paint our house and put in central AC and still have money left over to some games on the resale market.

 

We will go to as many games the next 2 years as we can. Then we'll watch 'em on TV and try to go to one every year.

 

I know it's all bidness and this is how the NFL works blah blah blah, but it's still gross for a person who has been a loyal fan and put their money where their mouth is for so long mostly with poor results.

 

And the BS of PSL as an investment. Give me A break. The ticket rep who used to work for the Cowboys told her some of the ones in Dallas go for $250,000.  Oh OK LOL.

 

Terry is 188th richest American and the 12th highest net worth of NFL owners.  Surely there is some other way he could raise the cash.

 

NFL and Terry, please don't tell us you love the fans.

 

It's like I heard Steve Young say a few years ago, when you have a product with a non elastic demand, you can do whatever you want. 

 

 

Edited April 4 by reddogblitz

[Gregg]

This speaks for every fanbase.

 

[nucci]

10 hours ago, npeartisgod said:

Why are folks acting like pub financing is new or unique? 
 

2004: In April, the Cowboys announced plans to build a $650 million stadium at Fair Park in Dallas. The deal required $425 million in public financing from a 3% hotel-occupancy tax and a 6% car-rental tax.

No one is acting like that. They're pissed because they may lose their seats and can't or won't pay the asking price.

[papazoid]

10 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

Well, the wife and I, after she attended a call with the Bills ticket rep yesterday, have decided to pass.

 

She has been a season ticket holder since 1987.  When they remodeled her seats went away so she upgraded to club seats in 1999. she moved to Dallas which is where I met her and why I have been a Bills fan since 1996. She kept her tickets and we would fly in for a couple of games a year. She sold (took a bath during the drought) the others.  When they were raising money by selling Engraved paver stones at The Ralph located by the Bills store we bought one in honor of our son who was a huge Bills fan who is no longer with us.

 

We could certainly afford it but it just feels like we've been super loyal to the Bills For 37 years.  Now they are telling us to bend over and drop our wallet or go away.   Loyalty is a 2 way street.

 

We decided to paint our house and put in central AC and still have money left over to some games on the resale market.

 

We will go to as many games the next 2 years as we can. Then we'll watch 'em on TV and try to go to one every year.

 

I know it's all bidness and this is how the NFL works blah blah blah, but it's still gross for a person who has been a loyal fan and put their money where their mouth is for so long mostly with poor results.

 

And the BS of PSL as an investment. Give me A break. The ticket rep who used to work for the Cowboys told her some of the ones in Dallas go for $250,000.  Oh OK LOL.

 

Terry is 188th richest American and the 12th highest net worth of NFL owners.  Surely there is some other way he could raise the cash.

 

NFL and Terry, please don't tell us you love the fans.

 

It's like I heard Steve Young say a few years ago, when you have a product with a non elastic demand, you can do whatever you want. 

 

 

 

"And the BS of PSL as an investment. Give me A break. The ticket rep who used to work for the Cowboys told her some of the ones in Dallas go for $250,000.  Oh OK LOL."

 

in the PSL agreement it clearly states in SEC 4e "Transfers": The Licensee acknowledges that(i) there is currently no market and no guarantee that there will ever be a market for resale of PSL's. (ii) none of Licensor, ECSC, PSL Agent or TeamCo., or their agents has represented that there will be a market for PSL's, (iii) none of Licensor, ECSC, PSL Agent or TeamCo. or any other person is under any obligation to create or cause to be created such a market and (iv) Licensee shall have no claim against Indemnitees for any purported loss of value of the PSL(s) or inability to transfer or sell a PSL for a desired price or any price at all.

[plenzmd1]

20 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Exactly. The NFL went upscale years ago. Compare a Super Bowl ticket today to the 90’s SB Bills games. It’s in another universe. 

I went to the last two— both were $250 face value for decent, not great seats. 

19 hours ago, zevo said:

I haven’t gone through this thread but I just heard 14% financing through MT bank. Lmfao

10% —- which BTW is way less than a personal loan and lord knows a CC running at like 23%. 
 

10% is a pretty good rate for this. 

 

[plenzmd1]

 

On 4/3/2024 at 7:47 AM, Jrb1979 said:

Sure they will sell the tickets but the days of the regular average joe owning them sound like they are over. The more you post the more it sounds it's going to be a stadium full of corporate people and less hardcore fans. 

the clubs are going to be people who have money, as it is is in EVERY stadium in America, not just football, every sport.

 

The best non-club seats lower bowl between the twenties are going to be people who have more disposable income than many...again as it is in EVERY stadium in America.

 

Having money does not preclude being a real fan

 

[Jrb1979]

25 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

 

the clubs are going to be people who have money, as it is is in EVERY stadium in America, not just football, every sport.

 

The best non-club seats lower bowl between the twenties are going to be people who have more disposable income than many...again as it is in EVERY stadium in America.

 

Having money does not preclude being a real fan

 

I never said anything about money and not being a real fan. My point was a response to another poster saying they put the prices high to go after a more corporate ticket holder. 

[Gregg]

23 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

I never said anything about money and not being a real fan. My point was a response to another poster saying they put the prices high to go after a more corporate ticket holder. 

 

This is true. Both the Giants and Jets lost their homefield advantage going from Giants Stadium to MetLife. Many of the real fans were priced out and now you have more of a corporate crowd. 

[BillsPride12]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

 

This is true. Both the Giants and Jets lost their homefield advantage going from Giants Stadium to MetLife. Many of the real fans were priced out and now you have more of a corporate crowd. 

I mean that's pretty much the way it is at every stadium across America these days.  The Bills had one of the few last true sporting environments for real fans.  

[zevo]

4 hours ago, plenzmd1 said:

I went to the last two— both were $250 face value for decent, not great seats. 

10% —- which BTW is way less than a personal loan and lord knows a CC running at like 23%. 
 

10% is a pretty good rate for this. 

 

One will never convince me 10% is a good loan rate. But yeah if you have to have seasons and this is the way one has to finance the PSL, more power to you. 

[Einstein]

6 hours ago, papazoid said:

 

"And the BS of PSL as an investment. Give me A break. The ticket rep who used to work for the Cowboys told her some of the ones in Dallas go for $250,000.  Oh OK LOL."

 

in the PSL agreement it clearly states in SEC 4e "Transfers": The Licensee acknowledges that(i) there is currently no market and no guarantee that there will ever be a market for resale of PSL's. (ii) none of Licensor, ECSC, PSL Agent or TeamCo., or their agents has represented that there will be a market for PSL's, (iii) none of Licensor, ECSC, PSL Agent or TeamCo. or any other person is under any obligation to create or cause to be created such a market and (iv) Licensee shall have no claim against Indemnitees for any purported loss of value of the PSL(s) or inability to transfer or sell a PSL for a desired price or any price at all.

Translation: Bend over. You are buying something of no value. 

Reminds me of the Dr. Seuss movie where a character was selling bottled air.

[Augie]

21 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

That's A big part of this.  Price out the riff raff.  And Get a higher cla$$ of fans.  

 

I have an old buddy (the only one I grew up with still in Buffalo I think) who has seasons for the Bills and Sabres. His wife will join him at some Sabres games but refuses to go to Bills games. That is why. 

[Einstein]

22 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I have an old buddy (the only one I grew up with still in Buffalo I think) who has seasons for the Bills and Sabres. His wife will join him at some Sabres games but refuses to go to Bills games. That is why. 

I must be sitting in the wrong sections, because Bills games are pretty tame. Especially compared to what they used to be. You used to see the yellow jackets swarming sections and breaking up fights and escorting people out all over the stadium. I rarely ever see that any more.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

I must be sitting in the wrong sections, because Bills games are pretty tame. Especially compared to what they used to be. You used to see the yellow jackets swarming sections and breaking up fights and escorting people out all over the stadium. I rarely ever see that any more.

 

I can’t speak for her obviously and I don’t know when she last attended. I will say, I try to generally get to one home game and one road game a year, and I see more vomiting in the parking lot in OP than I do on the road.  Could just be chance, or my flawed choices.  😋

 

 It seems the parking lots are worse than the stadium experience, but I’m far from an expert. 

 

 

[WotAGuy]

46 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I must be sitting in the wrong sections, because Bills games are pretty tame. Especially compared to what they used to be. You used to see the yellow jackets swarming sections and breaking up fights and escorting people out all over the stadium. I rarely ever see that any more.

 

I miss the races on the top of the 100-level suites!  Toward the end of games, some drunk guy would climb up and start running! 🤣🤣

[Jrb1979]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

I must be sitting in the wrong sections, because Bills games are pretty tame. Especially compared to what they used to be. You used to see the yellow jackets swarming sections and breaking up fights and escorting people out all over the stadium. I rarely ever see that any more.

The stadium stuff has never been that bad. It's the tailgating antics that are the problem. Table slamming, covering themselves with condiments and drunkenness. Maybe with upping the cost of tickets that will end. 

[GottaRun]

23 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

The stadium stuff has never been that bad. It's the tailgating antics that are the problem. Table slamming, covering themselves with condiments and drunkenness. Maybe with upping the cost of tickets that will end. 

- In 20 years of tailgating I have never seen anyone go through a table - that's a pumped up by the media thing
- Drunkenness is something that the rich folk do too
- Condiments?  Seriously?  It's one guy and it's a long time tradition.  Kenny has been to over 400 games home and away (flights, hotels, tickets), you don't seriously think a price increase is going to stop him do you?