PSL Pricing/Seat Selection Discussion

[PBF81]

5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He is but still goes all of the time he said. 
 

They used to have these little cards on the tables there with like a bio of your server. It said, “I was once featured in a Barstool Documentary.” I asked him about it. It was invigorating. Lol, I had him sign the card. Now every time that I’m in there I make him tell the story to whoever I’m with. My boss was in town a couple of months ago and Austin (that’s his name) told the story to him. His takeaway was that I’m an idiot. He’s a Pats fan. My girlfriend was in there with a couple friends a few weeks ago and told him that I’m his biggest fan 😂😂. 

 

LOL   Next time I'm in Buffalo I'll have to go there and see if he'll ante up with the tales of wonder and astonishment.  

 

And yeah, it's easy to get back in, they just won't let you buy season tickets, right?  

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

21 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Club season tickets are ~$3,000 per ticket. That is 2% of a $150k annual family income.

 

100-level season tickets are ~1,100 per ticket. That is 2.2% of a $50k annual family income.

300-level season tickets are ~$800 per ticket. That is 1.4% of a $50k annual family income.

This is not an accident. It's by design. The Bills price each level to appeal to the demographic. The % of income is near-identical but there are FAR more 300 level and 100-level seats than club seats.

So yeah, I would be shocked if the average current season ticket holder was not around the median income level of the Buffalo region. Not sure if you looked around the fans at a Bills game, but it's not 70,000 neurosurgeons, corporate executives and scientists.
 

PS, there is also a reason why season ticket renewal date is March 15th (hint).

 

The take home pay of someone around $50,000 is roughly $3,300.  $1,100 for a ticket is 1/3 of their monthly take home pay.  

 

Yes, I know its not full of doctors and executives.  I am not a doctor or executive and sit in the 1st row in every game I can attend.  The people I sit next to aren’t doctors and executives either.

[QCity]

22 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I always wondered how teams would even begin attempting to enforce a ban. How would you identify a banned person out of 70k?

 

I don't want to derail the thread with this, but for anyone interested search what James Dolan is doing with facial recognition at Knicks and Rangers games. It's lunacy.

[WotAGuy]

55 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The take home pay of someone around $50,000 is roughly $3,300.  $1,100 for a ticket is 1/3 of their monthly take home pay.  

 

Yes, I know its not full of doctors and executives.  I am not a doctor or executive and sit in the 1st row in every game I can attend.  The people I sit next to aren’t doctors and executives either.

Notice that the discussion has been moved from people earning $22/hr buying PSLs to people making $50k a year buying current season tickets. This is how Einstein operates. 

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, WotAGuy said:

Notice that the discussion has been moved from people earning $22/hr buying PSLs to people making $50k a year buying current season tickets. This is how Einstein operates. 

 

Late to the thread (in recent days/pages) but $22/hr is around $45k/yr...THEREFORE you must be...joking?

[RiotAct]

the economy has never been stronger, ladies and gentlemen.

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The take home pay of someone around $50,000 is roughly $3,300.  $1,100 for a ticket is 1/3 of their monthly take home pay.  

 

The take home pay of $150,000 is $9,400/month.

 

$3,000 per ticket is 1/3 of their monthly take home pay.

 

See a similarity here? Again, this is all on purpose. The Bills (and other teams) calculate these prices for the exact reason i’m showing home.

[WotAGuy]

13 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Late to the thread (in recent days/pages) but $22/hr is around $45k/yr...THEREFORE you must be...joking?

Read the prior 2-3 pages. But hurry up because we are now up to 150k a year and rising fast. 
 

 

 

Edited April 11 by WotAGuy

[PromoTheRobot]

On 4/9/2024 at 9:32 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

The point being, that the Bills partners have already paid that fee. A brokerage like Ace (for example) owns hundreds of season tickets throughout the state of NY. These are professional organizations with full time staffs. 

 

The Sabres had/have some real broker partners like that. They also have a bunch of people that buy season tickets knowing that they can sell a bunch to cover their cost. They sell the Leafs, Habs and 15-20 more games to cover the entire cost. That’s what they’re trying to stop. It’s the amateurs trying to make a business out of it.

 

The regular Joes who "cracked the code" on how to afford season tickets without dropping thousands they don't have every year. Not to make a profit but to get back enough for next year's tickets. We can't have that, can we.

[PromoTheRobot]

20 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

the economy has never been stronger, ladies and gentlemen.

 

For some folks it's rocking.

[Kirby Jackson]

7 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

The regular Joes who "cracked the code" on how to afford season tickets without dropping thousands they don't have every year. Not to make a profit but to get back enough for next year's tickets. We can't have that, can we.

I think that it is certainly doable for the Bills. You can sell 2, max 3 games, and pay for your season. It’s the Sabres people selling 25 games that they have an issue with. Also, in hockey/basketball/baseball the demand is opponent based. With the Bills the interest and pricing is more Bills based. Yes, KC brings more money than Denver but Denver still has massive demand. Every game before Thanksgiving has big demand. When you sell a Leafs ticket it’s WAY more likely to end up in the hands of a Leafs fan than a Broncos ticket is to end up in the hands of a Broncos fan.

Edited April 11 by Kirby Jackson

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that it is certainly doable for the Bills. You can sell 2, max 3 games, and pay for your season. 

 

Yep.

 

If it’s a night game, you may only have to sell 2.

[mrags]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Yep.

 

If it’s a night game, you may only have to sell 2.

Actually the night games don’t necessarily sell that well. Neither do playoff games despite what people may think. Took a loss on the wild card game this year and barely got a little more than market value on the KC game. 

[papazoid]

7 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

The regular Joes who "cracked the code" on how to afford season tickets without dropping thousands they don't have every year. Not to make a profit but to get back enough for next year's tickets. We can't have that, can we.

 

REGULAR JOES vs BROKERS ?

 

for me, there is a big difference between a STH who has 2,4,6,8, 10 tickets originally bought for personal use vs a broker who might be re-selling hundreds.

 

they should be treated differently when it comes to this NY STATE BROKERS LICENCE requirement the Sabres have recently enacted on some of their STH's.

 

the more i dig into this issue, the more i think that may already be the case ??

 

 A license is not needed for selling tickets originally bought for personal use.

https://nyc-business.nyc.gov/nycbusiness/description/ticket-reseller-license#:~:text=Businesses or people that resell tickets need a,for selling tickets originally bought for personal use.

 

A Ticket Reseller is any person, firm or corporation who resells or engages in the business of reselling any tickets to a place of entertainment or who operates an internet website or any other electronic service that provides a mechanism for two or more parties to participate in a resale transaction or that facilitates resale transactions by the means of an auction, or who owns, conducts or maintains any office, branch office, bureau, agency or sub-agency for such business. It is the responsibility of licensees to understand the Ticket Reseller License Law.

https://dos.ny.gov/ticket-reseller

[Just Jack]

5 hours ago, mrags said:

Actually the night games don’t necessarily sell that well. Neither do playoff games despite what people may think. Took a loss on the wild card game this year and barely got a little more than market value on the KC game. 

One of last seasons night games I had listed did not even sell, even though I kept dropping the price till it was just under my cost on game day.  

[Jrb1979]

2 hours ago, papazoid said:

 

REGULAR JOES vs BROKERS ?

 

for me, there is a big difference between a STH who has 2,4,6,8, 10 tickets originally bought for personal use vs a broker who might be re-selling hundreds.

 

they should be treated differently when it comes to this NY STATE BROKERS LICENCE requirement the Sabres have recently enacted on some of their STH's.

 

the more i dig into this issue, the more i think that may already be the case ??

 

 A license is not needed for selling tickets originally bought for personal use.

https://nyc-business.nyc.gov/nycbusiness/description/ticket-reseller-license#:~:text=Businesses or people that resell tickets need a,for selling tickets originally bought for personal use.

 

A Ticket Reseller is any person, firm or corporation who resells or engages in the business of reselling any tickets to a place of entertainment or who operates an internet website or any other electronic service that provides a mechanism for two or more parties to participate in a resale transaction or that facilitates resale transactions by the means of an auction, or who owns, conducts or maintains any office, branch office, bureau, agency or sub-agency for such business. It is the responsibility of licensees to understand the Ticket Reseller License Law.

https://dos.ny.gov/ticket-reseller

Many of you are missing what the law intends to do. It's to crack down on average joes who are STH who sell most their tickets. Nothing to do with profit or keeping it under $5000.  

 

If Terry is going after Sabres STH what makes you think he won't do it after the PSLs are sold. 

[BillsPride12]

52 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

One of last seasons night games I had listed did not even sell, even though I kept dropping the price till it was just under my cost on game day.  

I think the general consensus amongst ticket holders is they are getting sick of the amount of night games we keep getting.  It's just hard to do for people that work morning jobs.  I usually don't get home until 2:30-3:00am from the night games.  It's hard for those of us that are past our prime partying days to to get 2-3 hours of sleep and go into work hungover the next day and it's also hard to use up so much PTO time for the night games as you not only would have to use a day off the following day but your looking at using at least a half day the day of the game to get down to the stadium for tailgating.  Me and my buddy both had a lot of stuff going on last year so neither one of us had extra PTO time to use so we had to sell all 3 Night games.  It was easy selling the Giants game which was the first but it was a real struggle selling the next 2 night games.

[Royale with Cheese]

11 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

The take home pay of $150,000 is $9,400/month.

 

$3,000 per ticket is 1/3 of their monthly take home pay.

 

See a similarity here? Again, this is all on purpose. The Bills (and other teams) calculate these prices for the exact reason i’m showing home.

 

If a person takes home $9,400 a month, with that $3,000 ticket, he still has $6,400 a month to live off of.  

 

A guy that takes home $3,200 a month, that $1,100 hurts him a lot more.  That's only $2,100 leftover.  Mortgage/Rent, groceries, utilities, car payments, general family every day costs....yeah that guy isn't buying $1,100 tickets.  

 

 

12 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

Notice that the discussion has been moved from people earning $22/hr buying PSLs to people making $50k a year buying current season tickets. This is how Einstein operates. 

 

It's pretty ridiculous.  

 

Families making $22.00 an hour aren't buying $1,100 tickets and it doesn't make up the vast majority of the stadium lol.

[teef]

i love you guys.

[papazoid]

2 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

Many of you are missing what the law intends to do. It's to crack down on average joes who are STH who sell most their tickets. Nothing to do with profit or keeping it under $5000.  

 

If Terry is going after Sabres STH what makes you think he won't do it after the PSLs are sold. 

 

you may be right....but i just provided a link from NYS dept of State saying the opposite. A license is not needed for selling tickets originally bought for personal use.

 

what proof do have, please provide a link.....do you know any sabre STH who is an average joe who was targeted by the sabres  ?

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

27 minutes ago, teef said:

i love you guys.

 

If I told you I look like Michael B Jordan....would you believe me?

[teef]

16 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If I told you I look like Michael B Jordan....would you believe me?

no.

[Mango]

I was having a conversation with a buddy over a couple of beers about good o'l Ter-Bear and one of us said "well it is his team" regarding all things Pegula Sports. Then it occured to me that with an $850M subsidy, all his sports teams playing in buildings with publicly paid for money, and he gets to barely keep up with his lease agreements. At what point do the teams become at least in some part a public good like the philharmonic, the Adirondack's or SUNY? 

 

I know it is the way the world works. I know it is what every municipality does and this was always coming. It is really driving me crazy at the moment. It is insane to me that that $850M is equal to UB's entire budget, in theory we could have waived tuition for every student at UB for an entire year, and in return we get an owner who took the money and treats the gift like some sort of timeshare grift. 

For reference there is not a single college athletic department in any college sport across the country that charges PSL's.

[BillsPride12]

I just got an email from my Season Ticket Rep on whether I wanted strictly electronic tickets or the Season Ticket Debit Card they offer as an option.  I always elect for the Season Ticket card but there's a caveat this year where if you select that option(first time this is a thing) there is a $15 charge that comes with it.  I mean $15 is whatever but yet again there's a principal involved here where they are continuing to find every way possible to squeeze more money out of the fans.  Guess they still aren't happy enough with all the extra $$$$$ they are making from these PSL's🤣🤣

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am glad my time of being a ticket holder is coming to an end soon 

[Just Jack]

4 minutes ago, Mango said:

For reference there is not a single college athletic department in any college sport across the country that charges PSL's.

 

Syracuse University requires a "donation" to their Cuse Athletic Fund to buy season tickets.  While not calling it a PSL, it's still an extra charge to have the privilege to buy season tickets. 

 

Quote

Why is there an annual required seat-related ‘Cuse Athletics Fund membership on Football Season Tickets?
Seat-related ‘Cuse Athletics Fund memberships are essential to supporting the student-athlete experience at Syracuse University. This portion of your season ticket is used provide the resources needed for our teams to recruit, train and compete both in competition and in the classroom and is used to directly support all 20 programs and 600+ student-athletes. This portion also qualifies you as a ‘Cuse Athletics Fund member and applies toward your ‘CAF Annual Giving Level, which identifies your eligibility for different annual benefits and is used in donor rank to allocate tickets, parking and hospitality.

 

Syracuse Football Season Tickets

[Royale with Cheese]

25 minutes ago, teef said:

no.

 

That kinda hurt my feelings.

[Jrb1979]

1 hour ago, papazoid said:

 

you may be right....but i just provided a link from NYS dept of State saying the opposite. A license is not needed for selling tickets originally bought for personal use.

 

what proof do have, please provide a link.....do you know any sabre STH who is an average joe who was targeted by the sabres  ?

 

 

 

I'm sure it's just the start. 

 

[WotAGuy]

I’m grateful for the STH that sell their tickets. It makes it much easier to go to the occasional game.  Back in the day, it was a scramble to get individual game tickets as soon as they went on sale. 
 

And it’s not just the STHs that will be paying the PSL; anyone buying a resale ticket is going to be paying a lot more to account for the PSL and increased game ticket cost. 
 

The owners are going to keep pushing the envelope as long as there’s someone buying what they are selling. Corporations may be able to write off the expense of the suites/clubs. The rest of us will be paying more and more and slowly dropping out as the cost becomes prohibitive or we just tire of bending over. 
 

Like everything in life, the NFL is changing and you either roll with it or tap out. 

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

Syracuse University requires a "donation" to their Cuse Athletic Fund to buy season tickets.  While not calling it a PSL, it's still an extra charge to have the privilege to buy season tickets. 

 

 

Syracuse Football Season Tickets

 

They aren't PSL's. You don't own the right to the seat for other events, you get no priority, and they are only for one single season. 

Ultimately these are just itemized season tickets broken down into ticket and profit. But because SU is non-profit that profit is considered a "donation" and that donation is tax deductible. Also the total "all in" cost of a season ticket to SU Football is between $99 - $650 INCLUDING the tax deductible donation. 

 

Good luck telling the IRS your PSL is a donation.

This is not the same thing. 

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

A guy that takes home $3,200 a month, that $1,100 hurts him a lot more.  That's only $2,100 leftover.  Mortgage/Rent, groceries, utilities, car payments, general family every day costs....

 

Are you under the impression that it is $1,100 per MONTH? 

It's not. 

 

The 300-level is (on average - sections vary) 9 monthly payments of $89 per month. The 100 level is on average 9 monthly payments of $122 per month.

Therefore if you wanted to use a monthly budget, it would be $3,200/mo take home, with $3,111 left after budgeting the seasons in the 300's, and $3,078 leftover in the 100's. 
 

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

yeah that guy isn't buying $1,100 tickets.  

Yeah, they are.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

13 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that it is certainly doable for the Bills. You can sell 2, max 3 games, and pay for your season. It’s the Sabres people selling 25 games that they have an issue with. Also, in hockey/basketball/baseball the demand is opponent based. With the Bills the interest and pricing is more Bills based. Yes, KC brings more money than Denver but Denver still has massive demand. Every game before Thanksgiving has big demand. When you sell a Leafs ticket it’s WAY more likely to end up in the hands of a Leafs fan than a Broncos ticket is to end up in the hands of a Broncos fan.

Not to mention December games 

[Einstein]

9 hours ago, mrags said:

Actually the night games don’t necessarily sell that well. 

Then you are either charging too much or are in the wrong section. My night games sold like hot-cakes. I kicked myself for not pricing them higher because they were gone so quickly.

NOTE: The exception to this is Thursday night games. Those suck.

I do watch some other STH's on Ticketmaster just sit on their tickets though. And it's almost always because they have them priced at something stupid like $700 per ticket. Of course they aren't selling at that price.

[Mango]

There was some complaint about the 10 year length on the PSL's up thread. That likely coincides with right around Josh Allen's retirement. I would assume that is by design once the market resets? 

Based on the Sabres, the terrible upkeep of KBC, and Pegula pulling out of Blue Cross Arena lease in Rochester, I have every expectation that he becomes a bad tennant and the team tanks. He will want to stick his hand in the honey jar one more time before that happens. 

 

Edit: I was corrected on the timeline down thread. I still have little faith in Terry Pegula. 

Edited April 11 by Mango

[WotAGuy]

7 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Are you under the impression that it is $1,100 per MONTH? 

It's not. 

 

The 300-level is (on average - sections vary) 9 monthly payments of $89 per month. The 100 level is on average 9 monthly payments of $122 per month.

Therefore if you wanted to use a monthly budget, it would be $3,200/mo take home, with $3,111 left after budgeting the seasons in the 300's, and $3,078 leftover in the 100's. 
 

Yeah, they are.

 

You’re making a convincing argument that even average earners can afford the new $15,000 PSLs.  A 10-year loan at 10% interest is about $200/month. 

[teef]

33 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

That kinda hurt my feelings.

it shouldn't.  you can be handsome in your own way, but not the michael b jordan kind of a way.  

[Einstein]

13 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

You’re making a convincing argument that even average earners can afford the new $15,000 PSLs.  A 10-year loan at 10% interest is about $200/month. 

If that was the only payment, yes. But you're forgetting - it will be the PSL payment, PLUS the season ticket payment. A PSL payment of $200 is double what they spend on seasons right now, and the season ticket payment will likely go up by at least 50% as well. In essence, we are talking about a 3x increase in cash outlay.

Another place where price sensitivity will come into play with lower earners is the down payment required. I saw one person was quoted a down-payment of $8,000. I don't know the terms, but that surprised me and is likely where the lower earners will struggle (ie: see my comments on elasticity of demand).

[WotAGuy]

4 minutes ago, Einstein said:

If that was the only payment, yes. But you're forgetting - it will be the PSL payment, PLUS the season ticket payment. A PSL payment of $200 is double what they spend on seasons right now, and the season ticket payment will likely go up by at least 50% as well. In essence, we are talking about a 3x increase in cash outlay.

Another place where price sensitivity will come into play with lower earners is the down payment required. I saw one person was quoted a down-payment of $8,000. I don't know the terms, but that surprised me and is likely where the lower earners will struggle (ie: see my comments on elasticity of demand).

 

Ugh, yeah I do remember someone saying the financing was available after the down payment. Not to

mention, in most cases, people

will be buying a minimum of two seats.  
 

 

 

Edited April 11 by WotAGuy

[Royale with Cheese]

33 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Are you under the impression that it is $1,100 per MONTH? 

It's not. 

 

The 300-level is (on average - sections vary) 9 monthly payments of $89 per month. The 100 level is on average 9 monthly payments of $122 per month.

Therefore if you wanted to use a monthly budget, it would be $3,200/mo take home, with $3,111 left after budgeting the seasons in the 300's, and $3,078 leftover in the 100's. 
 

Yeah, they are.

 

 

I didn't mean for it to be taken too literally.  Yes I know some people spend ridiculously above their budget but it's not the majority.  

The majority of your season ticket holders are going to be your middle to upper middle class that live in your regular suburban neighborhoods.

 

$122 a month for someone with a family is difficult of a $22.00 an hour income.  It would probably be top 5 most expensive payment he has. This is assuming it's just him going and not the other members of the family.

Not to mention parking, food, beer/drinks, merchandise....

[loyal2dagame]

1 hour ago, BillsPride12 said:

I just got an email from my Season Ticket Rep on whether I wanted strictly electronic tickets or the Season Ticket Debit Card they offer as an option.  I always elect for the Season Ticket card but there's a caveat this year where if you select that option(first time this is a thing) there is a $15 charge that comes with it.  I mean $15 is whatever but yet again there's a principal involved here where they are continuing to find every way possible to squeeze more money out of the fans.  Guess they still aren't happy enough with all the extra $$$$$ they are making from these PSL's🤣🤣

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am glad my time of being a ticket holder is coming to an end soon 

They charged last year for the card also.  You might have missed it but it was $10 per card.

[BillsPride12]

4 minutes ago, loyal2dagame said:

They charged last year for the card also.  You might have missed it but it was $10 per card.

My mistake then lol, I honestly don't remember that but not surprised