D Personal on Tush Push TD

[st pete gogolak]

I laughed out loud when I saw Taron Johnson on the field for the Tush Push TD, all 170 pounds of him.  
 

You’ve got 8 DL. Put them on the field.  At least make the Eagles do something other than push the ball up the middle. 
 

I don’t blame McDermott.  Not a single HC does anything other than concede a first down or TD to the Eagles.

[Yobogoya!]

I feel like the Eagles are daring someone to stack all their heavy bodies against that play. If Sirianni is thinking ahead, he's got Hurts ready to audible into a quick out if the defense comes that heavy against them there. And frankly, that could end up being a disaster -- a 1 yard first down could instead be a touchdown when nobody is able to react to the out pattern cause they're selling out for the run stop. 

 

But with smaller linebackers and nickel personnel, I agree, you pretty much have no chance of out-muscling them. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

18 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

I laughed out loud when I saw Taron Johnson on the field for the Tush Push TD, all 170 pounds of him.  
 

You’ve got 8 DL. Put them on the field.  At least make the Eagles do something other than push the ball up the middle. 
 

I don’t blame McDermott.  Not a single HC does anything other than concede a first down or TD to the Eagles.

The Eagles run the play with their base set up. Which means if you put 8 DL out there they audible and set up Jordan Phillips trying to cover AJ Brown.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

 

 

[st pete gogolak]

So, the consensus is that the play is unstoppable and if the Eagles are in 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 you just concede the yard or the TD?  

[Coffeesforclosers]

11 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

So, the consensus is that the play is unstoppable and if the Eagles are in 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1 you just concede the yard or the TD?  

 

Not even close. The Brotherly Shove is a rugby scrum, repackaged to be NFL legal.  The big difference is rugby players can hang onto each other so they can pack more bodies and more force into small spaces. 

NFL players are not allowed to "bind", like rugby players are, so the Eagles line their OL up with their shoulderpads almost touching.

 

It's just that NFL teams refuse to fight it using rugby principles.  Instead they trot out angled alignments, or some version of "the lowest blocker wins".  And get steamrolled over, and over, and over.

 

 

 

To even start beating it, the DL needs to match mass and alignment with mass and alignment...like two scrums do in Rugby.  DL have to play heads up on every OL, or squared up in every gap to even have a chance.  Otherwise, you just help create the carpet of downed players for Hurts to slide over.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The way to stop it is to be a dirty team

 

Just jump Offside and when you do finish your block ala Jordan Phillips yesterday

 

Philly will stop the play if they think their starters are taking unnecessary hits/risks

[Yobogoya!]

2 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The way to stop it is to be a dirty team

 

Just jump Offside and when you do finish your block ala Jordan Phillips yesterday

 

Philly will stop the play if they think their starters are taking unnecessary hits/risks

 

Yeah, tbh people gave him s--- for it in gameday thread but I didn't even have a problem with Philips' jump yesterday. 

 

If you time it perfect you can stop Hurts in the backfield. 

 

If not, you still hit him and put him on his ass at least. 

 

What do you have to lose? You're probably giving up the first down anyway. 

[NoSaint]

41 minutes ago, Yobogoya! said:

I feel like the Eagles are daring someone to stack all their heavy bodies against that play. If Sirianni is thinking ahead, he's got Hurts ready to audible into a quick out if the defense comes that heavy against them there. And frankly, that could end up being a disaster -- a 1 yard first down could instead be a touchdown when nobody is able to react to the out pattern cause they're selling out for the run stop. 

 

But with smaller linebackers and nickel personnel, I agree, you pretty much have no chance of out-muscling them. 

On the goal line how the 1 yards gained matters little. May as well see if they drop the ball on the fake/pass. Mid field you are relatively correct though. 

2 minutes ago, Yobogoya! said:

 

Yeah, tbh people gave him s--- for it in gameday thread but I didn't even have a problem with Philips' jump yesterday. 

 

If you time it perfect you can stop Hurts in the backfield. 

 

If not, you still hit him and put him on his ass at least. 

 

What do you have to lose? You're probably giving up the first down anyway. 

especially at the goal line. Go ahead and give me half the distance for them to think twice on the call 

[colin]

at the goal line you time and jump over and over again.

 

get some hits on them on their way to 6, as opposed to getting hit.

 

it stinks, but it is what it is.

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

9 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The way to stop it is to be a dirty team

 

Just jump Offside and when you do finish your block ala Jordan Phillips yesterday

 

Philly will stop the play if they think their starters are taking unnecessary hits/risks

On goal to go at the 1 you can jump Offside and cream the QB a dozen times and only get a 1/2 the distance each time.  Until they change the rules to penalize intentional Offside with unsportsmanlike its on.

[Yobogoya!]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

On the goal line how the 1 yards gained matters little. May as well see if they drop the ball on the fake/pass. Mid field you are relatively correct though. 

 

Yeah, there's absolutely no reason not to sell out to stop it at the goal line. But if they have 4 downs to try for it... probably gonna get it eventually. 

 

But if Hurts get hurt on that play you'll probably see them get more conservative with it.

[NoSaint]

6 minutes ago, colin said:

at the goal line you time and jump over and over again.

 

get some hits on them on their way to 6, as opposed to getting hit.

 

it stinks, but it is what it is.

 

 

yea, it’s ugly and not something I like advocating but until the rule changes it’s essentially the only way to stop the points. They still convert any short yardage around the field but it’d come off the board quickly with a couple more hits like phillips laid

[schoolhouserock]

55 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

I laughed out loud when I saw Taron Johnson on the field for the Tush Push TD, all 170 pounds of him.  
 

You’ve got 8 DL. Put them on the field.  At least make the Eagles do something other than push the ball up the middle. 
 

I don’t blame McDermott.  Not a single HC does anything other than concede a first down or TD to the Eagles.

I was completely OK with how Jordan Phillips played it. The Eagles’ success rate is so high on that play that trying to jump the snap makes sense. Failing to time it just right, make the infraction count. That might be the only way to change the Eagles’ math.

[Your Brown Eye]

Linval Joseph's fat ass just laid on his belly when they did that play, the eagles just went over him like a speed bump, I was like "wtf was that!?!?"

[JerseyBills]

I swear we invented this last year with Gabe Davis as the pusher, Philly just took it to a whole different level with their elite interior ol.. But Idk if we've been stopped either 

[The Frankish Reich]

42 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

The Eagles run the play with their base set up. Which means if you put 8 DL out there they audible and set up Jordan Phillips trying to cover AJ Brown.

That I'd pay to see.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Most teams only dress 3-4 DTs. So you’d have to bring some OL on the field to match mass. 
 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, JerseyBills said:

I swear we invented this last year with Gabe Davis as the pusher, Philly just took it to a whole different level with their elite interior ol.. But Idk if we've been stopped either 

Other than Jason Kelce false starting. Which he didn't do on those plays.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I swear we invented this last year with Gabe Davis as the pusher, Philly just took it to a whole different level with their elite interior ol.. But Idk if we've been stopped either 

That was our version of what the Eagles do. Ours sucked.

[boyst]

The simple reason the tush push needs to be stopped is because it is holding on the offensive line. When the offense creates the scrum they engage in contact with each other, connecting their bodies intentionally. This is actually holding by definition

 

Further up on this. The offensive line pushes each other and has others push them while blocking. Think of it this way, on a simple trap if we had a fire intentionally come up behind McGovern angle with him to move a player with that not be holding?

Edited November 27, 2023 by boyst

[Augie]

3 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I swear we invented this last year with Gabe Davis as the pusher, Philly just took it to a whole different level with their elite interior ol.. But Idk if we've been stopped either 

 

When our sons turned 16 I took each of them to Buffalo to see a Bills game live. It was a nice rite of passage to cement lifelong Bills fans. It worked.  😋

 

The Saturday before the oldest son’s first live Bills experience we sat at The Anchor Bar (honestly, my first time ever in there) and saw USC vs Notre Dame with the Bush Push. It was like seeing the Doug Flutie Hail Mary at BC on one of the first few dates with my now wife…..you never forget that. That’s the good stuff in life. 👍 

[Billsfanatic8989]

23 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

On goal to go at the 1 you can jump Offside and cream the QB a dozen times and only get a 1/2 the distance each time.  Until they change the rules to penalize intentional Offside with unsportsmanlike its on.

Refs can call a TD after the second or third time I believe. 

 

But at least you get big hits in. Maybe one of their stars get hurt (no pun intended) and they think twice about it in future.

[ProcessImproverMan]

Just send in some third string DT and have them deck the QB or center each time early trying to jump the snap. Even if they change the rule to unsportsmanlike, it doesn't hurt losing a 3rd string guy all that much. Like the Sabres used to do with Rob Ray and Peters, have a designated enforcer on the line to be there simply to settle scores. 

[boyst]

2 hours ago, Billsfanatic8989 said:

Refs can call a TD after the second or third time I believe. 

 

But at least you get big hits in. Maybe one of their stars get hurt (no pun intended) and they think twice about it in future.

Show me that rule. It has to be an unsportsmanlike foul and be shown 100% deliberate.

 

Unfortunately this is an abstract opinion based situation for which a ref would decide the outcome. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by boyst

[K-9]

4 hours ago, st pete gogolak said:

I laughed out loud when I saw Taron Johnson on the field for the Tush Push TD, all 170 pounds of him.  
 

You’ve got 8 DL. Put them on the field.  At least make the Eagles do something other than push the ball up the middle. 
 

I don’t blame McDermott.  Not a single HC does anything other than concede a first down or TD to the Eagles.

The Eagles have DeVonta Smith out there along with other skill players as well and you have to match that personnel. 

[Billsfanatic8989]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

Show me that rule. It has to be an unsportsmanlike foul and be shown 100% deliberate.

 

Unfortunately this is an abstract opinion based situation for which a ref would decide the outcome. 

I should rephrase. If it was obvious the defense committed three blatant offside penalties where they get free, and clear shots at the QB, receivers etc, they could utilize the palpable unfair act. It's rarely used.

 

Example: Eagles are at the goalline and try the tush push. Before the snap, a defensive player runs straight to Hurts and knocks him back about five yards. Once that happens the second time, and it's clear the defense is doing it on purpose (doesn't have dumb players who just have a history off not saying onside), the ref could theoretically award a TD to the offense. Because the defense is clearly delaying the game and trying to intentionally injur the opposition. 

 

If a returner was thirty yards from a clear kickoff return TD, and a player from the opposition ran from the bench to tackle him short, the rule would be enforced. The returning team gets a TD.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Billsfanatic8989

[steven50]

aiding the runner used to be a penalty

[stevewin]

Last night when they had the ball at like the 5 yd line one posession I was wondering why they didn't just run it multiple times from there - it would prob get you in 4 downs from the 10.  Maybe they don't want to troll the league - yet

 

That was a good video explaining the wedge and point of the spear by Kelce and the guys on the left side.  The funny part is the success is not as much the push as the wedge.  Even if they do outlaw pushing from behind - they can't outlaw 3 guys blocking shoulder-shoulder in unison

[RyanC883]

19 hours ago, Yobogoya! said:

I feel like the Eagles are daring someone to stack all their heavy bodies against that play. If Sirianni is thinking ahead, he's got Hurts ready to audible into a quick out if the defense comes that heavy against them there. And frankly, that could end up being a disaster -- a 1 yard first down could instead be a touchdown when nobody is able to react to the out pattern cause they're selling out for the run stop. 

 

But with smaller linebackers and nickel personnel, I agree, you pretty much have no chance of out-muscling them. 

 

I agree with this, but put the 8 DL in there, with 3 DBs ready to defend the pass.  If Hurts attempts a pass, he's not going to have long to do it with the line collapsing around him.