We need to save Josh Allen by any means necessary (the fire is gone)

[zow2]

The Josh turnovers this season are insane. he's simply a turnover machine.   Obviously some of the stuff last night was not his fault but some were...and they are game changing.  I bet if they were cut in half over the last 6 games the Bills would have two more wins.  I would also include last nights horrendous 4th down throw from midfield as basically a turnover as well.

[Jerome007]

Good post OP. He still has fire IMO, but nothing like he used to have.

 

Josh has been quite aloof to Joe Brady sitting besides him during games. Now the same Joe Brady is OC... We'll see how that goes.

[Artful Dodger]

Remember that the last time he celebrated in the Bengals game by pointing to a player on the other team, the refs immediately threw a flag on him.  

 

 

[oldmanfan]

Sorry but Josh needs to take responsibility for his issues too.  Look at the second pick last night.  That is the third time this season he’s been suckered into that throw and he does not learn.  Fourth and 1 and he throws 10-1( yards downfield instead of just running for the yard when he had room.  Glad Dorsey’s gone, and hopefully Brady can do better.  But when your QB leads the league in turnovers that’s on him to fix.

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

The Josh Allen we are seeing right now, is not who we saw the first 5 years off his career.

 

Even when he had bad stretches under Daboll, he still would come out fired up the next series. He was still ready to risk it all.

 

His fire is GONE. When he scores now, he just jogs off the field.

 

Example: After we took the lead with 2 minutes to go last night, he started to just jog off the field (zero celebration). Spencer Brown tried to get him excited and lifted him into the air. 

 

Three years ago he’d be screaming his head off and amping everyone up. Now his facial express to being hoisted after a go-ahead TD is the face of someone who looks like they’re battling depression. And no, this is not a deceptive screenshot - this is how he looked the entire post TD celebration.

 

 

 

The fire is gone and, Simon, I apologize for the salty language, but that friggin terrifies me!!!

 

Where has this gone?

 

 

And this?

 

 

And this?

 

 

And this?

 

 

I genuinely believe that McDermott’s “never too high, never too low” mentality has absolutely zombified what made Allen special.

 

I think it’s no coincidence that McD and Daboll didn’t get along, and Josh is becoming more and more like this as the months pass without Daboll as his coach.

 

 

McDermott ruined this team even though his administrative process and Andy Dalton pulled us out of a drought.  McDermott is so wrong for Josh on so many levels. And with all the injuries on defense,  his specialty can't even save him.  It's time for a change after this season.

Edited November 14, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[CincyBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, zow2 said:

The Josh turnovers this season are insane. he's simply a turnover machine.   Obviously some of the stuff last night was not his fault but some were...and they are game changing.  I bet if they were cut in half over the last 6 games the Bills would have two more wins.  I would also include last nights horrendous 4th down throw from midfield as basically a turnover as well.

And Allen's TD production is equally insane.  The important metric is the TD/TO ratio which for Allen is a solid 2.  Allen could do better here but he's not bad. 

 

And if you're going to count a missed 4th down throw as a TO then will you count dropped passes on 3rd down as TD's for Allen? 

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, Artful Dodger said:

Remember that the last time he celebrated in the Bengals game by pointing to a player on the other team, the refs immediately threw a flag on him.  

 

 

 

Even that point of a finger was pretty tame for Josh.

[Jerome007]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

The Josh Allen we are seeing right now, is not who we saw the first 5 years off his career.

 

Three years ago he’d be screaming his head off and amping everyone up. Now his facial express to being hoisted after a go-ahead TD is the face of someone who looks like they’re battling depression. And no, this is not a deceptive screenshot - this is how he looked the entire post TD celebration.

 

Posting those JA17 celebrations, you are so right. I hope that somehow Josh gets to see this. Get back to having fun and playing like  a maniac. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Sorry but Josh needs to take responsibility for his issues too.  Look at the second pick last night.  That is the third time this season he’s been suckered into that throw and he does not learn.  Fourth and 1 and he throws 10-1( yards downfield instead of just running for the yard when he had room.  Glad Dorsey’s gone, and hopefully Brady can do better.  But when your QB leads the league in turnovers that’s on him to fix.

And when he leads the league in TD's that's just chopped liver? Again, yes Allen can improve here but the TD/TO ratio is what counts and from that perspective Allen is not doing as badly as his TO numbers look.  In fact just throwing out his TO's without mentioning his TD production is just taking uninformed cheap shots IMO.

 

 

 

 

[billieve420]

7 minutes ago, zow2 said:

The Josh turnovers this season are insane. he's simply a turnover machine.   Obviously some of the stuff last night was not his fault but some were...and they are game changing.  I bet if they were cut in half over the last 6 games the Bills would have two more wins.  I would also include last nights horrendous 4th down throw from midfield as basically a turnover as well.

 

He needs to be more aware of when to take chances and when not to. Last thing before the half you needed was a turnover and he gives it right back to Denver. He does need to take better care of the ball no doubt. However, the offense is doing him no failures which then puts it all on him to make something happen and with that you will see some bad plays from him.

[Mikie2times]

 

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, billieve420 said:

 

He needs to be more aware of when to take chances and when not to. Last thing before the half you needed was a turnover and he gives it right back to Denver. He does need to take better care of the ball no doubt. However, the offense is doing him no failures which then puts it all on him to make something happen and with that you will see some bad plays from him.

Agree.  That was a bad INT under the circumstances.  And this is where Allen can improve his game. 

 

As an aside, what I would live to know is whether that pass was the primary play call from Dorsey or did Allen divert from the primary play call to try to force it to Harty? Allen's comments about running the play that was called makes me think that was the primary call.

 

 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

And when he leads the league in TD's that's just chopped liver? Again, yes Allen can improve here but the TD/TO ratio is what counts and from that perspective Allen is not doing as badly as his TO numbers look.  In fact just throwing out his TO's without mentioning his TD production is just taking uninformed cheap shots IMO.

 

 

 

 

Great, he leads in TDs.  But we are still losing games and part of that is turnovers.  One stat  that has stood the test of time is that teams with more turnovers lose.  Josh is a great talent, but he is too prone to making dumb plays.  The truth hurts.

[Dopey]

11 minutes ago, zow2 said:

The Josh turnovers this season are insane. he's simply a turnover machine.   Obviously some of the stuff last night was not his fault but some were...and they are game changing.  I bet if they were cut in half over the last 6 games the Bills would have two more wins.  I would also include last nights horrendous 4th down throw from midfield as basically a turnover as well.

He's been doing this the past few years. Didn't matter who the OC was. The difference is that the defense wasn't banged up in past seasons and has saved Josh's ass more than people here either know or want to acknowledge. 

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Great, he leads in TDs.  But we are still losing games and part of that is turnovers.  One stat  that has stood the test of time is that teams with more turnovers lose.  Josh is a great talent, but he is too prone to making dumb plays.  The truth hurts.

 

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Agree.  That was a bad INT under the circumstances.  And this is where Allen can improve his game. 

 

As an aside, what I would live to know is whether that pass was the primary play call from Dorsey or did Allen divert from the primary play call to try to force it to Harty? Allen's comments about running the play that was called makes me think that was the primary call.

 

 

He has got suckered into that pass three times for picks.  Give me a number- how many times should he throw a pick on that route before you’ll say he was wrong?

Edited November 14, 2023 by oldmanfan

[Einstein]

14 minutes ago, zow2 said:

The Josh turnovers this season are insane. he's simply a turnover machine.   

 

I’m not blaming Allen for the tipped INT’s.

 

But yeah he has had some bad throws. As does every QB.

 

As for the bad throw on 4th down, most QB’s aren’t even able to get that ball off.

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Great, he leads in TDs.  But we are still losing games and part of that is turnovers.  One stat  that has stood the test of time is that teams with more turnovers lose.  Josh is a great talent, but he is too prone to making dumb plays.  The truth hurts.

Yep, to many TO's by the offense but also not enough takeaways b the defense over the last few weeks. 

 

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

He's been doing this the past few years. Didn't matter who the OC was. The difference is that the defense wasn't banged up in past seasons and has saved Josh's ass more than people here either know or want to acknowledge. 

Really?  So can you name a couple of those games?  I can think of a whole bunch of games Allen bailed out the D. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

Yep, to many TO's by the offense but also not enough takeaways b the defense over the last few weeks. 

 

I forget you are just blindly in hero worship mode.

 

We’ll see what Brady does.  Maybe we’ll see better balance in calls and such.  But a talent like Allen should not lead the league in turnovers.  Simple.

[Jrb1979]

What's hurt Allen more than anything is taking away what made him so good. He was at his best when scrambling and making big plays. Making him take underneath stuff and make long drives is not where he excels.  

 

IMO the biggest problem is McDermott wanting to offense be one that chews clock so the defense stays off the field. 

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

I forget you are just blindly in hero worship mode.

 

We’ll see what Brady does.  Maybe we’ll see better balance in calls and such.  But a talent like Allen should not lead the league in turnovers.  Simple.

Can't help yourself in throwing out insults?  BTW, pointing out the counter arguments to your takes on Allen is not "hero worship". But hey everyone has an opinion.

 

 

[Nihilarian]

My take is that it was Ken Dorsey who was the problem with the offense and Josh saw it. He voted for the guy for the job so was reluctant to say anything.

 

The offense was far too predictable and in the scheme unless the players played perfectly it wouldn't work. 

 

Things should get better.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

That’s one thing that can’t be coached. You either have passion or you don’t.  I don’t know if this is true or not, but if it is what caused it to happen?

 

he got paid, that's what happened.

 

it's not uncommon, see Dareus, Captain Fatass

 

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Can't help yourself in throwing out insults?  BTW, pointing out the counter arguments to your takes on Allen is not "hero worship". But hey everyone has an opinion.

 

 

Again the truth hurts.  You think Josh is a hero and can do no wrong.  It is evident from your posts.  You have never to my knowledge said anything negative.  Even in this thread you try to justify his high turnover rate by saying the defense should get more turnovers, as if one has to do with the other.

 

Josh is a great talent.  Every Bills fan wants him here his entire career and to succeed.  But he has flaws to be corrected.  Brady once said he wanted to be coached hard.  Shouldn’t Josh get the same?

[What a Tuel]

4 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

My take is that it was Ken Dorsey who was the problem with the offense and Josh saw it. He voted for the guy for the job so was reluctant to say anything.

 

The offense was far too predictable and in the scheme unless the players played perfectly it wouldn't work. 

 

Things should get better.

 

Wouldnt they just run the same offense? Does Joe Brady really have a backup offense to scheme up and run on the fly in week 11 of the season?

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

Again the truth hurts.  You think Josh is a hero and can do no wrong.  It is evident from your posts.  You have never to my knowledge said anything negative.  Even in this thread you try to justify his high turnover rate by saying the defense should get more turnovers, as if one has to do with the other.

 

Josh is a great talent.  Every Bills fan wants him here his entire career and to succeed.  But he has flaws to be corrected.  Brady once said he wanted to be coached hard.  Shouldn’t Josh get the same?

Please with the "truth hurts" crap.  The fact you can't understand my point about the TD/TO ratio being a better metric then just total TO's is not my problem.  As to whether I ever post anything "negative" about Allen this is what posted 14 minutes ago on this thread:  "Agree.  That was a bad INT under the circumstances.  And this is where Allen can improve his game."

 

Maybe it's that when I'm negative I'm just not nasty about it.

 

And when a high number of TO's is accompanied by a high number of TD's then yes the defenses ability to force TO's is related to the success of the team. 

 

 

 

 

[SectionC3]

25 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Agree.  That was a bad INT under the circumstances.  And this is where Allen can improve his game. 

 

As an aside, what I would live to know is whether that pass was the primary play call from Dorsey or did Allen divert from the primary play call to try to force it to Harty? Allen's comments about running the play that was called makes me think that was the primary call.

 

 

He looked right at him.  Harty was between Josh and my position in the stadium in my line of sight.  It was a garbage throw. One of the worst he’s made in a long time.  The angle was such that I saw the whole thing develop.  It was a shockingly poor throw. 

[Dopey]

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Yep, to many TO's by the offense but also not enough takeaways b the defense over the last few weeks. 

 

Really?  So can you name a couple of those games?  I can think of a whole bunch of games Allen bailed out the D. 

Without looking, last year's playoff win vs. Miami. People here saying we almost lost to Skyler Thompson and gave up 31 points to them. Watch the game over and tell me Josh didn't single handedly try and give that game away. The 1st int was just a horrible throw. Then to start the 2nd half he fumbles the ball away for a TD. Our defense dominated that game. Did you watch the Giants game a few weeks ago? The defense won that game for him. The defense tried to save the team vs. the Jets in the season opener, but Josh just wouldn't allow it. Josh had to win it for us...not. Just a few off the top of my head.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Dopey said:

Without looking, last year's playoff win vs. Miami. People here saying we almost lost to Skyler Thompson and gave up 31 points to them. Watch the game over and tell me Josh didn't single handedly try and give that game away. The 1st int was just a horrible throw. Then to start the 2nd half he fumbles the ball away for a TD. Our defense dominated that game. Did you watch the Giants game a few weeks ago? The defense won that game for him. The defense tried to save the team vs. the Jets in the season opener, but Josh just wouldn't allow it. Josh had to win it for us...not. Just a few off the top of my head.

 

Both of the past two games in the Meadowlands are clear Josh Allen losses, as is this most recent dumpster fire.

 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Please with the "truth hurts" crap.  The fact you can't understand my point about the TD/TO ratio being a better metric then just total TO's is not my problem.  As to whether I ever post anything "negative" about Allen this is what posted 14 minutes ago on this thread:  "Agree.  That was a bad INT under the circumstances.  And this is where Allen can improve his game."

 

Maybe it's that when I'm negative I'm just not nasty about it.

 

And when a high number of TO's is accompanied by a high number of TD's then yes the defenses ability to force TO's is related to the success of the team. 

 

 

 

 

 Turnovers cost games.  That is truth.  Your QB can’t be leading the league in turnovers.

 

We’ll see if Brady helps.  Every guy in the offense should look in the mirror and ask what they can do to be better.  And that includes Allen.

 

My fear is that no matter who the OC is Josh is not going to learn or accept the concepts.  We hired the guy he wanted in Dorsey and it failed.  If the same thing happens with the next guy when does it stop?

[Jrb1979]

9 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Please with the "truth hurts" crap.  The fact you can't understand my point about the TD/TO ratio being a better metric then just total TO's is not my problem.  As to whether I ever post anything "negative" about Allen this is what posted 14 minutes ago on this thread:  "Agree.  That was a bad INT under the circumstances.  And this is where Allen can improve his game."

 

Maybe it's that when I'm negative I'm just not nasty about it.

 

And when a high number of TO's is accompanied by a high number of TD's then yes the defenses ability to force TO's is related to the success of the team. 

 

 

 

 

That shows he really isn't having as great a season you think he's having. 

 

[What a Tuel]

3 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

That shows he really isn't having as great a season you think he's having. 

 

 

This is silly playing with statistics nonsense.

 

I can do it too.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by What a Tuel

[The Firebaugh Kid]

#bringbackbrittany

[dave mcbride]

15 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Please with the "truth hurts" crap.  The fact you can't understand my point about the TD/TO ratio being a better metric then just total TO's is not my problem.  As to whether I ever post anything "negative" about Allen this is what posted 14 minutes ago on this thread:  "Agree.  That was a bad INT under the circumstances.  And this is where Allen can improve his game."

 

Maybe it's that when I'm negative I'm just not nasty about it.

 

And when a high number of TO's is accompanied by a high number of TD's then yes the defenses ability to force TO's is related to the success of the team. 

 

 

 

 

Not wading into your argument here, but the throw that should have resulted in a pick early on (the defender didn't get his second foot in bounds) was an equally terrible throw/decision. The Bills were LUCKY the defender didn't seem to know how to do a basic foot drag (probably because he's a LB and not a DB). 

[vanislebills44]

pretty evident that something is going on 

i think the brass should put some bonuses into his contract in relation 2 checkdowns...

 

[Dopey]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

 Turnovers cost games.  That is truth.  Your QB can’t be leading the league in turnovers.

 

We’ll see if Brady helps.  Every guy in the offense should look in the mirror and ask what they can do to be better.  And that includes Allen.

 

My fear is that no matter who the OC is Josh is not going to learn or accept the concepts.  We hired the guy he wanted in Dorsey and it failed.  If the same thing happens with the next guy when does it stop?

Amen. It would be nice if people acknowledge this fact. This has been an issue prior to Dorsey. I am not saying I wanted Dorsey to stay, but after a while we're gonna run out of OC's to blame. I want Josh to succeed here, but there are issues in his game. Take what the defense gives you. We don't need an entire game of heroics. 

[DCBongo]

3 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

I blame Hailee Steinfeld.

Women weaken legs

[CincyBillsFan]

9 minutes ago, Jrb1979 said:

That shows he really isn't having as great a season you think he's having. 

 

Actually it doesn't. Your cherry picking the data from a very small sample size (low number of games).  Take out Allen's worst 2 games (Denver/Jets) to go along with taking out his 2 best games (this is the minimum you need to do here) and he has thrown 10 TD's & 6 INT's not great but not terrible.

 

And why are you ignoring rushing TD's & fumbles?  Allen has scored 7 rushing TD's and lost 2 fumbles.  That would change your story a lot: after you drop Allen's worst 2 and best 2 games - Allen would then have 16 TD's & 6 TO's which is very good. 

 

 

[Airseven]

3 hours ago, Pokebball said:

Sorry, I've seen otherwise.

In empty stadiums?

 

(That Chiefs playoff game is ancient history.)

[nedboy7]

The idea of letting go of a top player that is struggling for some reason is just pathetic.  I Josh playing well?  Not really.  Do I think they should trade him or something?  Hell no!  Can he regain his mojo?  Of course. 

[Nihilarian]

8 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

Wouldnt they just run the same offense? Does Joe Brady really have a backup offense to scheme up and run on the fly in week 11 of the season?

It's the very same playbook that Brian Daboll used to run, the same scheme. Yet, when the OC sees his QB throw INTs on particular plays over and over...take them out of the playbook. Ken Dorsey did not do that. 

 

it's that the offense has been predictable under Dorsey and far too dependent on the player execution to make the play work. It has also been far too simple that defenses can lay back and know what's coming as they sit on routes.

 

However, Brian Daboll was a wizard in his play calls, passing concepts that would have defenses so confused.

 

We need to see what this new OC can do. Hopefully much better.