Film Breakdown on Terrel Bernard - Also, Keep an Eye on the Rest of the Defense as Well.

[Bookie Man]

43 is the Mike!

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

In HS, basketball was my biggest passion as it was my best sport.  I played varsity as a sophomore and when asked what my top 2 number choices were.  My first choice was 42, for my favorite player James Worthy.  My second choice was 44, for Hank Gathers.  Just my luck, both were taken by upper class men and they defaulted me to 43.   Epic fail and 43 has been 💩  to me ever since 

 

Well now it must be like we hear in the mic'd up sessions "Good ***** man good *****!"

[CSBill]

14 hours ago, NewEra said:

Not a nascar fan, but Richard Petty was pretty cool

 

The King!

[DrDawkinstein]

20 hours ago, sven233 said:

 

 

 

Finally had the time to go back and watch this video.

 

WOW. This kid is all over the field, and I agree with Erik - he is HUNTING.

 

If this isnt just a fluke or beginner's luck, we really struck gold here because this kid's "instincts" jump off the screen. (I agree with Erik that "instincts" discounts a lot of the work the player puts in, but it fits)

[Warriorspikes51]

Allen's multiple passionate interactions with him on the sideline shows that the team already respects him 

[Royale with Cheese]

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Finally had the time to go back and watch this video.

 

WOW. This kid is all over the field, and I agree with Erik - he is HUNTING.

 

If this isnt just a fluke or beginner's luck, we really struck gold here because this kid's "instincts" jump off the screen. (I agree with Erik that "instincts" discounts a lot of the work the player puts in, but it fits)

 

Is it too early to say he's the greatest MLB of all time?

[The Frankish Reich]

19 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I think this applies to most linebackers.  If you have a 300+ lineman coming clean, he should win that battle nearly 100% of the time.

 

I just don't see many classic run-stuffing big MLBs in the NFL anymore. Brandon Spikes is a thing of the past.

I would expect Belichick to run heavy sets against us, but that's just as much about them not having a good passing attack and doing the best with what they have.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I just don't see many classic run-stuffing big MLBs in the NFL anymore. Brandon Spikes is a thing of the past.

I would expect Belichick to run heavy sets against us, but that's just as much about them not having a good passing attack and doing the best with what they have.

 

If you can't drop in coverage as an off the ball linebacker, you won't be in the NFL for long anymore.

 

The thing is, if Bernard was 20 lbs heavier, how much of a difference is it going to be for him to take on a clean Offensive lineman?  There would be no difference and will still be washed away.

 

Speed and recognition trumps everything.  

[Warriorspikes51]

our own version of Derrick Brooks, yes please.  Brooks was only 6'0 235 

 

Bernard was a half second / whistle / review from

7 Tackles, 2 Sacks, 2 Fumble Recoveries, Int, TD 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Warriorspikes51

[GaryPinC]

11 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

He was.  It was clear.  

 

Find the UTM running plays that he did well on?  

 

To start, there were only a couple.  Two for large gains.  

 

I realize that living in fantasyland where a guy plays well against the pass means that he's been perfect all around, but that simply was not the case.  I provided the time shots in the highlight video.  

 

Again, it's the UTM plays that I'm referring to, and sorry, but he did nothing on any of them.  ... as the MLB.  

 

He'll have an opportunity to shine in that role on Sunday quite possibly.  Let's hope he's better then than he was on Sunday or we're in trouble if the Fins run UTM often.  

 

 

Thanks for your analysis and feedback on Bernard, it's great to have contrasting input.  The biggest negative of Bernard vs Edmunds will probably be in goal line situations as Bernard's smaller size will be magnified.

 

He's going to make his share of mistakes but it's clear he's passionate, smart, and very decisive.  My hope is that he'll be a true quarterback of the defense, making changes on the fly to adjust to offenses throwing something unexpected at us. 

 

I was curious, have you evaluated Edmunds' run defense in the past and could you compare the two players if so?  TIA

 

[Beck Water]

46 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If you can't drop in coverage as an off the ball linebacker, you won't be in the NFL for long anymore.

 

The thing is, if Bernard was 20 lbs heavier, how much of a difference is it going to be for him to take on a clean Offensive lineman?  There would be no difference and will still be washed away.

 

Speed and recognition trumps everything.  

 

I'd like to see him put on some muscle, but it took several years for Milano to build up.

 

He looked slow and tentative last season, but now it appears that was just learning our defense and learning the NFL game.

 

The other thing - I was noticing watching some other teams, that a guy who is tackling, is tackling alone.  The Bills "flow to the ball" so much, that it usually doesn't matter if Bernard is too light to bring a guy down, he's just slowing him up until Ed Oliver or Milano or Poyer land on him.

 

I still have concerns but so far, Looking Good.

 

I think Christian Kirksey pressing the "eject" button says as much about how players and coaches view him, as anything.

[Brand J]

2 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

Allen's multiple passionate interactions with him on the sideline shows that the team already respects him 

Loved seeing it. And I don’t remember too many* of those moments between Allen and our last MLB.
 

*When I say “too many” I actually mean “one.”

[elroy16]

15 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Don't get me wrong I think Taron is a great football player and a top NCB, but next season is the last on his contract.

I don't know if the Bills will be able to afford him.  Some team will pay him big money I'm guessing.

It will be very interesting to see what happens.

 

 

I'd be surprised of Taron gets big money from somewhere else. He's already 27 and his last deal with the Bills was 3 years for $24 million. I'd expect something similar again from the Bills, maybe this offseason to avoid getting to free agency.

 

 

Someone mentioned it a while back, but the flow of the entire D is awesome to watch. Their spacing is on point and everyone is doing there 1/11th. I also loved the run play where Bernard stands in the hole for a split second and then darts into the next gap as soon as the running makes a cut. As soon as Bernard leaves that gap, Taron comes flying in through there while Bernard helps stop the runner in the next gap. 

 

 

Not to dog on Tremaine too much, I was always a fan, but this is rough.

 

 

 

Bernard just seems to fit in this defense better than Tremaine did, especially with McD calling a more aggressive game. I was worried about Bernard dropping into deep zones, but even that he looks like he's excelling by reading the QB and having a great feel for zone D.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by elroy16

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

our own version of Derrick Brooks, yes please.  Brooks was only 6'0 235 

 

Bernard was a half second / whistle / review from

7 Tackles, 2 Sacks, 2 Fumble Recoveries, Int, TD 

 

I don't think that other one was a fumble. It definitely wasn't forward progress. But to me was a clear incomplete pass. Bang bang play. Receiver never establishes control, no "football move". Should have been incomplete.

[RoyBatty is alive]

16 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

As long as he (Williams) is quick between the ears as well…

I am a big believer in Williams, went to Tulane Grad school so I watched a lot of him.  Tulane is not a football factory school like so many Div 1 schools, the players actually attend real classes.  I have watched him play & heard Williams speak, he is very articulate and speaks intelligently.  Give him time, he will become a great LBers.  Too young and inexperienced to be MLBer this year except when the game outcome has already been decided.

[C.Biscuit97]

He’s a modern LB. Weirdly a team like the Titans might give us more trouble defensively than one of these 4 receiver ones. I can’t imagine how an OC doesn’t just try to run it down our throats 

 

thats the only thing that makes me nervous. It’s a long season and we have soem small (but baller) LBs. I just press they hold up because they are the most athletic group in the nfl. 

[PBF81]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:03 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

I think he was better than average against the run. Both week 2 and week 3 he would have graded out positively in that regard (and indeed has per PFF if you go in for that kind of thing). 

 

Are there bigger tests to come? Yep. Will last Sunday likely be the best game he ever plays? Probably... 2 sacks, 2 TFL, 1 INT, 1 pass defensed, 2 pressures and a fumble recovery is gonna be a hard stat line to ever top. 

 

But so far when some of us (myself included) were fearing a liablity he has actually been a playmaking positive at MLB. He'd be borderline top 10 at the position based on performance through 3 weeks. 

 

I don't buy your "he should only improve not get worse" take. Football isn't that linear. Especially with young players. And especially with players that teams start to get film on. People will try and use his aggression against the run against him. They will run play action and try and throw over the top of him etc. They will run misdirection..... offensive playcallers will have gone into this season not knowing much about Bernard and as they get more tape they will adjust and he will have to respond.

 

PFF is one resource.  I had spoken to them about working for them years ago, I understand how they arrive at their ratings, which is a sound process.  It's not an end-all-to-be-all, but it's a sound decision based on well more than a single person rendering a determination.  

 

Agree on your third sentence, but consider, teams haven't run much against us, 13 non-QB carries average the last two weeks.  Which as you know is way below average.  

 

The single game in which a team did run against us, and with all but zero balance in the passing game, was the Jets, who were generally successful at it, rushing 24 times for 166 yards.  Even with that 83 yard long run not considered, which was largely on Bernard BTW, we can call it alignment or whatever, but it was his play to make, they still put up 23 carries for 83 yards, which given the circumstances was decent.  

 

As to your last statement, yes, I realize that it's not linear, but at the same time, if as I suspect will be the case, as teams run more on us, and more UTM, little of which happened the past two games, I suspect that he's not even going to be average, again, specifically vs. UTM/off-tackle runs.  

 

I have also noticed that we're running several different configurations re: LB set-ups.  

 

We'll see what happens Sunday.  I'd be lying if I said I wasn't nervous about that game, for which a loss would put us in a significant hole for both division and conf record.  I'm optimistic however.  Overall I'm quite satisfied with the way we're playing, but I'm also not delusional in thinking that the three teams that we've beaten won't be anything but finishing with losing records with none making the playoffs come the end of the season.  Also, I'm also not expecting any of the QBs that we've played to finish above-average in passing either. 

 

As always, we'll see.  Sunday will be huge however.  The fan energy is going to be sick.  I hope we capitalize.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

As to your last statement, yes, I realize that it's not linear, but at the same time, if as I suspect will be the case, as teams run more on us, and more UTM, little of which happened the past two games, I suspect that he's not even going to be average, again, specifically vs. UTM/off-tackle runs.  

 

 

But what makes you suspect that? Is it just his size? 

[NewEra]

On 9/26/2023 at 5:52 AM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Finally had the time to go back and watch this video.

 

WOW. This kid is all over the field, and I agree with Erik - he is HUNTING.

 

If this isnt just a fluke or beginner's luck, we really struck gold here because this kid's "instincts" jump off the screen. (I agree with Erik that "instincts" discounts a lot of the work the player puts in, but it fits)

Great to see a Mike that can trust his instincts, his knowledge of his defense, his teammates and just go out there and fly around.  
 

Edmunds was an obstacle just trying to get into the way of the offense. Bernard looks to be a ball of fire trying to be playmaker and leader of the defense….. after 4 starts 

 

I hope he’s doing yoga and stays healthy!

[PBF81]

On 9/26/2023 at 9:52 AM, GaryPinC said:

Thanks for your analysis and feedback on Bernard, it's great to have contrasting input.  The biggest negative of Bernard vs Edmunds will probably be in goal line situations as Bernard's smaller size will be magnified.

 

He's going to make his share of mistakes but it's clear he's passionate, smart, and very decisive.  My hope is that he'll be a true quarterback of the defense, making changes on the fly to adjust to offenses throwing something unexpected at us. 

 

I was curious, have you evaluated Edmunds' run defense in the past and could you compare the two players if so?  TIA

 

 

Thanks, and please, don't get me wrong, I'm far from the notion that Bernard sucks, both he and the rookie Williams should have zero troubles in pass D.  The draft profiles on both, pervasively, state that.  Williams is supposed to be even more quick thinking/processing than Bernard.  I'm sure that both are intelligent leaders for the D, etc.  

 

My criticism of Bernard is limited because the UTM runs against us in the past two games have been limited.  I think there were only 7 or 8 combined in both games, of 26 carries.  Bernard shone in two of them.  

 

I leave room for him becoming a beast there, I simply never see it happening however.  Whether that become relevant, who knows.  I suspect that come playoff time when we face balanced offenses with good OCs and HCs, that it would become a problem, at least in one game, and that's all it takes to get outsted from the playoffs, eh, a one-game lapse like that where the opponent capitalizes on a weakness.  

 

As to Edmunds, I've never looked at him in crazy detail, but enough to know that he was hit and miss vs. the run.  Inconsistent is the one word I'd use to describe him.  My big thing re: Edmunds is that he was expected to play a weird role, similar to what we're running this season, not typically a traditional 4-3, and the reason for that, to me anyway, is obvious, we don't have the proper personnel to run one.  We're so overly focused on stopping the passing game that IMO we've overlooked the key pieces for stopping the run.  We'll find out more as the season develops and we begin to play better coached, more talented, more well-rounded teams.  

 

Also, and this is huge for me, he was the youngest player in the NFL in his rookie season.  He's always been asked to play in a weird non-traditional alignment that he's never been in, and I'm not sure many LBs have been in, and he was 24 last season, his fourth here.  He's only 25 as of May.  IMO it was way too early to determine that he wasn't going to be good here.  Having said that, IMO it was in his own best interests, as a player with an NFL career in mind, to get out of here.  So while I don't believe that either Williams or Bernard (who's exactly one year younger than Edmunds) will ever be as good as Edmunds, if this is the defense we're going to play here, I suppose that there's a chance that they're better suited to it.  McBeane don't explain to us what they're doing with their alignments and whether or not 'they're doing what they can with the talent that they have,' or this has been fully planned, but I see it being an issue come playoff time and in our games agains tougher offenses.  

 

I haven't paid much attention to Edmunds this year, but I do know that unlike us, he is playing in a traditional 4-3 most of the time over there.  

 

But a quick google just now turned up the following, which seems to contradict the sour-grapes take that's prominent here; 

 

https://bearstalk.com/tremaine-edmunds-earned-bears-highest-pff-grade-on-defense-in-week-2/

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-every-nfl-team-most-improved-player-2022

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2023-free-agent-rankings-linebacker

 

FWIW  

 

At the end of the day, as much as I think Edmunds was better than anyone we now have on the roster, without hesitation, I think that for his own sake he's better off not here.  I've said before, I expect him to finish the season among the top-10 traditional MLBs in all facets of the game, likely towards the higher end of that.  

 

 

13 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But what makes you suspect that? Is it just his size? 

 

Look, I know we're going to disagree here, and I'll be the pariah in the forums that is the retraded skeptical guy.  But in traffic, whether people see it or not, he gets bounced around like a lightweight.  I've pointed out the plays and people simply make excuses.  

 

I'll tell you what though, I'll make a friendly wager with you that come December, few people will be defending his run defense skills.  

 

And handful of plays in couple of routs don't do it for me.  

 

Like I said, I'm happy to play the role of the retradeed skeptic.  I've been there often, ... initially.   

 

 

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But what makes you suspect that? Is it just his size? 

 

And BTW, if he becomes a beast at MLB vs. the run, great.  Happy to be wrong.  Just what we need, so I'd be elated.  Why wouldn't I be.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by PBF81

[starrymessenger]

On 9/26/2023 at 9:48 AM, Warriorspikes51 said:

our own version of Derrick Brooks, yes please.  Brooks was only 6'0 235 

 

Bernard was a half second / whistle / review from

7 Tackles, 2 Sacks, 2 Fumble Recoveries, Int, TD 

I'm sure he can easily put on 6 pounds to reach 230. If he does that he's pretty much the same size as the majority of the best coverage linebackers in the league. He's a little undersized right now but not by much. Maybe looks smaller than he is.
I was really impressed with him watching his presser. Like Allen he looks to be a very smart, mature kid and that's pretty much his reputation coming in. 

[Lane Meyer K12]

Going into the season I saw this position as their biggest potential weakness. If Bernard continues down this road it turns into a surprising strength and this season could be really special. Curious to see this D against the fish. It will be a big indicator on where they truly are at. 

[GunnerBill]

51 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

Look, I know we're going to disagree here, and I'll be the pariah in the forums that is the retraded skeptical guy.  But in traffic, whether people see it or not, he gets bounced around like a lightweight.  I've pointed out the plays and people simply make excuses.  

 

I'll tell you what though, I'll make a friendly wager with you that come December, few people will be defending his run defense skills.  

 

And handful of plays in couple of routs don't do it for me.  

 

Like I said, I'm happy to play the role of the retradeed skeptic.  I've been there often, ... initially.   

 

 

I am trying to understand you reasoning. I was as down on Bernard as anyone going into the season. But you have to watch the games and allow your opinion to develop based on the evidence in front of your eyes. 

 

I have left room for the fact this will not be linear especially now teams have film on how to attack him. I am not declaring him the answer after 3 games. 

 

But the fact is he HAS played the runs up the middle well the last two weeks. And his problems against the Jets were alignment not technique. He hasn't been perfect but he has been better than average, without question. I have given you my breakdown. Other film analysts have given theirs. PFF has scored him strongly against the run 2 weeks in a row.

 

So I am trying to understand your rationale. Is it that you think in games where teams commit to inside runs his size will mean he won't be able to maintain his level of performance from the last two weeks and teams will wear him down? Which I mean, fair to an extent. How many teams will be able to stick with a run game against Buffalo is the question there.

 

Or are you just saying "screw the evidence my gut says he can't play the run?"

 

Or is your position "he has been bad against inside runs even the last two weeks".... and if it is that one we can ignore it because it is just wrong.

 

I just want to make sure I understand your position. 

[PBF81]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am trying to understand you reasoning. I was as down on Bernard as anyone going into the season. But you have to watch the games and allow your opinion to develop based on the evidence in front of your eyes. 

 

I have left room for the fact this will not be linear especially now teams have film on how to attack him. I am not declaring him the answer after 3 games. 

 

But the fact is he HAS played the runs up the middle well the last two weeks. And his problems against the Jets were alignment not technique. He hasn't been perfect but he has been better than average, without question. I have given you my breakdown. Other film analysts have given theirs. PFF has scored him strongly against the run 2 weeks in a row.

 

So I am trying to understand your rationale. Is it that you think in games where teams commit to inside runs his size will mean he won't be able to maintain his level of performance from the last two weeks and teams will wear him down? Which I mean, fair to an extent. How many teams will be able to stick with a run game against Buffalo is the question there.

 

Or are you just saying "screw the evidence my gut says he can't play the run?"

 

Or is your position "he has been bad against inside runs even the last two weeks".... and if it is that one we can ignore it because it is just wrong.

 

I just want to make sure I understand your position. 

 

My position is long-term, not overreacting on a week-by-week basis.  

 

I think I've already answered the question, but let me try another approach, I do appreciate your reasonability here!! 

 

IMO the circumstances under which he's shined are not typical of what he'll see throughout most of the season.  ... without again going into any details already mentioned.  

 

We'll see.  Let's hope I'm so wrong that I look like a moron.  That would make me happy. 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

My position is long-term, not overreacting on a week-by-week basis.  

 

I think I've already answered the question, but let me try another approach, I do appreciate your reasonability here!! 

 

IMO the circumstances under which he's shined are not typical of what he'll see throughout most of the season.  ... without again going into any details already mentioned.  

 

We'll see.  Let's hope I'm so wrong that I look like a moron.  That would make me happy. 

 

 

I am definitely not overreacting week to week. But equally on the other side I am not saying "I said this player will suck so regardless of what happens I am sticking with that."

 

So you are, I think, saying teams who can commit to the inside run will wear him down and his performance will inevitably dip?

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am trying to understand you reasoning. I was as down on Bernard as anyone going into the season. But you have to watch the games and allow your opinion to develop based on the evidence in front of your eyes. 

 

I have left room for the fact this will not be linear especially now teams have film on how to attack him. I am not declaring him the answer after 3 games. 

 

But the fact is he HAS played the runs up the middle well the last two weeks. And his problems against the Jets were alignment not technique. He hasn't been perfect but he has been better than average, without question. I have given you my breakdown. Other film analysts have given theirs. PFF has scored him strongly against the run 2 weeks in a row.

 

So I am trying to understand your rationale. Is it that you think in games where teams commit to inside runs his size will mean he won't be able to maintain his level of performance from the last two weeks and teams will wear him down? Which I mean, fair to an extent. How many teams will be able to stick with a run game against Buffalo is the question there.

 

Or are you just saying "screw the evidence my gut says he can't play the run?"

 

Or is your position "he has been bad against inside runs even the last two weeks".... and if it is that one we can ignore it because it is just wrong.

 

I just want to make sure I understand your position. 

I think we know the reasoning.  He spent the entire offseason ripping McDermott/Beane about the MLB position so he has to cling onto something that he’s right.  
 

Videos of people breaking down the film he ignores and he counters that with a highlight video.  

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I am definitely not overreacting week to week. But equally on the other side I am not saying "I said this player will suck so regardless of what happens I am sticking with that."

 

So you are, I think, saying teams who can commit to the inside run will wear him down and his performance will inevitably dip?

 

Well, to start, these PFF grades and other indicators that people are citing, generally refer to outside runs since neither they nor the Raiders ran much UTM.  So not sure how stopping runs on the outsides is in any way indicative of stopping them in the middle.  Yet ... 

 

I don't know about "wearing him down" per se, I simply don't think he's going to be effective against teams that end up running UTM on us, and IMO as the season develops, I'd expect opposing OCs that have the capabilities on their teams to do that, to do that.  

 

Any overreaction as stated is from people who equate making a few tackles on outside runs is anything even approaching being stout in the middle on those UTM runs.  

 

Again, look, maybe he will be great at that, the UTM runs that is, but if so, it will be bucking every single draft profile out there on him, so I'm in good company there anyway.  

 

As another part of the overreaction, is people that don't understand my position on either Bernard or Williams.  All I've ever said is that in a traditional MLB role, which frankly they're not in, they'll have difficulty stopping the UTM runs.  I don't know how to make it any clearer.  

 

I know that both are great at coverage.  I've never argued contrarily.  

 

Let's see how this unfolds.  I'd bet good money that his UTM inability to stop runs in key games is going to cost us this season, assuming that he continues in that role. 

 

We'll see.  After that who cares, I'm happy to be wrong and a moron until further notice.  LOL 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

33 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, to start, these PFF grades and other indicators that people are citing, generally refer to outside runs since neither they nor the Raiders ran much UTM.  So not sure how stopping runs on the outsides is in any way indicative of stopping them in the middle.  Yet ... 

 

I don't know about "wearing him down" per se, I simply don't think he's going to be effective against teams that end up running UTM on us, and IMO as the season develops, I'd expect opposing OCs that have the capabilities on their teams to do that, to do that.  

 

Any overreaction as stated is from people who equate making a few tackles on outside runs is anything even approaching being stout in the middle on those UTM runs.  

 

Again, look, maybe he will be great at that, the UTM runs that is, but if so, it will be bucking every single draft profile out there on him, so I'm in good company there anyway.  

 

As another part of the overreaction, is people that don't understand my position on either Bernard or Williams.  All I've ever said is that in a traditional MLB role, which frankly they're not in, they'll have difficulty stopping the UTM runs.  I don't know how to make it any clearer.  

 

I know that both are great at coverage.  I've never argued contrarily.  

 

Let's see how this unfolds.  I'd bet good money that his UTM inability to stop runs in key games is going to cost us this season, assuming that he continues in that role. 

 

We'll see.  After that who cares, I'm happy to be wrong and a moron until further notice.  LOL 

 

 

 

While of course PFF grades every run, Bernards stops before or at the line of scrimmage the last two games are ALL up the middle or off tackle. So while I don't have access to PFF's breakdown play by play it is fair to assume he earned a chunk of that grade on inside runs. 

 

I still think based on your comments about draft profile you are basically saying his size is what it comes down to (because that was the basis on which most draft protaginists considered he would struggle playing in the middle and I am not ridiculing that.... I hadn't watched him pre-draft bur it was my first impression when I did saw him on tape and in pre-season last year). And you don't think a guy at his size can hold up against teams who commit to running up the middle. 

 

I mean it could be right. He could be enjoying a bit of beginners luck as it were... but I dunno. He has played a LOT better against the run... even the runs up the middle... through two games than I ever expected him to.

 

I am not crowning his ass as Denny Green would say. But I don't think his strong start is an accident either.

Edited September 28, 2023 by GunnerBill

[warrior9]

Is it time we give Bobby Babich some love? I didn't read through the 6 pages but Milano is a 5th round guy that is now an All-Pro. Bernard was seen as an afterthought and looked like an awful draft pick last year. 

 

Edmunds is failing MISERABLY without him. If Dorian blossoms, does Bobby B get some love? Or is it the defense / McD

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Is it time we give Bobby Babich some love? I didn't read through the 6 pages but Milano is a 5th round guy that is now an All-Pro. Bernard was seen as an afterthought and looked like an awful draft pick last year. 

 

Edmunds is failing MISERABLY without him. If Dorian blossoms, does Bobby B get some love? Or is it the defense / McD

 

Different Bobby Babich. Babich Snr gets the credit for Milano's development. Babich Jnr is riding on Bernard and Williams

 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

While of course PFF grades every run, Bernards stops before or at the line of scrimmage the last two games are ALL up the middle or off tackle. So while I don't have access to PFF's breakdown play by play it is fair to assume he earned a chunk of that grade on inside runs. 

 

A chunk?  How about he's earned most of it on the outside runs.  

 

You may not have looked at every run, but I have.  You and I can go through them when I have time, I'm gonna be swamped from now 'til game time.  

 

I think you'll see what I'm seeing then, whether or not you agree on the prognosis I can't say.  

 

Either way, I'm tired of going back and forth on this.  My position is clear.  If I'm wrong, good for me too, we're all fans, I'll be just as happy as anyone.    

 

 

[warrior9]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Different Bobby Babich. Babich Snr gets the credit for Milano's development. Babich Jnr is riding on Bernard and Williams

 

Ahhhh that's right. Good call. 

 

To be fair, I think Sr. gets credit for Edmunds based on his awful regression with Chi. 

[HoofHearted]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:11 PM, McBean said:

Been said, but super impressed at 18:44 in this video.

 

This guy is getting better every week.

 

I loved him coming out, just glad he’s now showing it. 
 

Him and Milano are beasts.

What makes it super impressive to you? I’m just curious.

[folz]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:31 PM, PBF81 said:

 

Here's a marvelous stop by Bernard, boy, you sure are right.  LOL 

 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5XW6KTUABVE

 

And another, ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb-uJ9PnQ7g

 

 

I'm honestly not trying to pile on here, but I did go and watch two of the plays you linked earlier. And I saw them differently than you did.

 

On the first play, the Brian Robinson run, Bernard fights through traffic to fill a hole, Robinson then has to cut the run back because Bernard is in that hole, Bernard turns to pursue, and despite being tackled from behind by a Commander's O-lineman (I would assume that could have been called a holding or a block in the back if the refs saw it), he still got a hand on the RBs thigh---though he was unable to make the tackle. I do not see this play as a good example of Bernard not being able to stack up in the middle. He fulfilled his assignment and then was fouled as he tried to make a play. I put this play more on Shaq and Milano, rather than Bernard coming from the other side. 

 

On the second play, TB filled his gap, stacking the Commanders O-lineman at the line of scrimmage (he didn't get pushed back). Plus, you can see his assignment is not contain...Flyod and Tre have contain. Floyd loses contain by going too far upfield, and Tre gets wiped out by the Washington TE. That is where this play failed. In the meantime, after holding his own against the lineman, Bernard sees the back taking it outside, so he spins to pursue (he didn't get turned around by the lineman, he is disengaging to pursue), and the lineman holds him (has Bernard's right arm hooked)...and despite being held, he was still there to help finish the tackle (despite a good gain by the RB). Again, this play didn't fail because of Bernard.

 

Look, TB will make his mistakes (not that I think the above examples were mistakes), he's a second year guy with 4 starts. But, he is exceeding my expectations at this point (and I was already in the camp that we were fine at MLB before the season started). I do get your point about a smaller LBer holding up against bigger linemen, but as the Cover1 video showed, Bernard is very good at dissecting and avoiding/getting around blocks. It is tough for those lineman to get their mitts on TB, unless he is coming up to crash the line/fill a hole...and it seems he has held his own even in that department thus far, imo. And our D-Line is tough this year, which should help to keep both LBs clean. Obviously, there will be tougher challenges ahead (better running teams), but I haven't seen anything from TB to think that he won't be up for those challenges.

 

And just to note, in 74 games as a Bill, Edmunds had 13.5 splash plays (a sack or turnover). That equates to one splash play every 6 games, or 3.4 splash plays per season. Bernard has had 5 splash plays in his first 3 games this year. Nice to see a playmaker in that spot again, regardless of his size.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by folz

[GaryPinC]

9 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Thanks, and please, don't get me wrong, I'm far from the notion that Bernard sucks, both he and the rookie Williams should have zero troubles in pass D.  The draft profiles on both, pervasively, state that.  Williams is supposed to be even more quick thinking/processing than Bernard.  I'm sure that both are intelligent leaders for the D, etc.  

 

My criticism of Bernard is limited because the UTM runs against us in the past two games have been limited.  I think there were only 7 or 8 combined in both games, of 26 carries.  Bernard shone in two of them.  

 

I leave room for him becoming a beast there, I simply never see it happening however.  Whether that become relevant, who knows.  I suspect that come playoff time when we face balanced offenses with good OCs and HCs, that it would become a problem, at least in one game, and that's all it takes to get outsted from the playoffs, eh, a one-game lapse like that where the opponent capitalizes on a weakness.  

 

As to Edmunds, I've never looked at him in crazy detail, but enough to know that he was hit and miss vs. the run.  Inconsistent is the one word I'd use to describe him.  My big thing re: Edmunds is that he was expected to play a weird role, similar to what we're running this season, not typically a traditional 4-3, and the reason for that, to me anyway, is obvious, we don't have the proper personnel to run one.  We're so overly focused on stopping the passing game that IMO we've overlooked the key pieces for stopping the run.  We'll find out more as the season develops and we begin to play better coached, more talented, more well-rounded teams.  

 

Also, and this is huge for me, he was the youngest player in the NFL in his rookie season.  He's always been asked to play in a weird non-traditional alignment that he's never been in, and I'm not sure many LBs have been in, and he was 24 last season, his fourth here.  He's only 25 as of May.  IMO it was way too early to determine that he wasn't going to be good here.  Having said that, IMO it was in his own best interests, as a player with an NFL career in mind, to get out of here.  So while I don't believe that either Williams or Bernard (who's exactly one year younger than Edmunds) will ever be as good as Edmunds, if this is the defense we're going to play here, I suppose that there's a chance that they're better suited to it.  McBeane don't explain to us what they're doing with their alignments and whether or not 'they're doing what they can with the talent that they have,' or this has been fully planned, but I see it being an issue come playoff time and in our games agains tougher offenses.  

 

I haven't paid much attention to Edmunds this year, but I do know that unlike us, he is playing in a traditional 4-3 most of the time over there.  

 

But a quick google just now turned up the following, which seems to contradict the sour-grapes take that's prominent here; 

 

https://bearstalk.com/tremaine-edmunds-earned-bears-highest-pff-grade-on-defense-in-week-2/

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-every-nfl-team-most-improved-player-2022

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2023-free-agent-rankings-linebacker

 

FWIW  

 

At the end of the day, as much as I think Edmunds was better than anyone we now have on the roster, without hesitation, I think that for his own sake he's better off not here.  I've said before, I expect him to finish the season among the top-10 traditional MLBs in all facets of the game, likely towards the higher end of that.  

 

 

 

Look, I know we're going to disagree here, and I'll be the pariah in the forums that is the retraded skeptical guy.  But in traffic, whether people see it or not, he gets bounced around like a lightweight.  I've pointed out the plays and people simply make excuses.  

 

I'll tell you what though, I'll make a friendly wager with you that come December, few people will be defending his run defense skills.  

 

And handful of plays in couple of routs don't do it for me.  

 

Like I said, I'm happy to play the role of the retradeed skeptic.  I've been there often, ... initially.   

 

 

 

And BTW, if he becomes a beast at MLB vs. the run, great.  Happy to be wrong.  Just what we need, so I'd be elated.  Why wouldn't I be.  

 

 

 

 

Thanks for all the great content, and I definitely agree with you that Bernard's size is a definite concern.  And I feel one of Edmunds's strengths is he's a very sure tackler when making the play.  However, even though Pff gives him high grades for a low percent of missed probable tackles, can their stats accurately capture his lack of effort, hustle, and instinct to put himself in position to make more tackles? 

For me, it's why he never makes splash plays:  he's not attacking the ball enough.  He's too content to parade jog along with the play when it's more than 10 feet away from him.

 

PFF rated him highest graded defender for week 2.  Here's the extended highlights of that game.  Just focus on what Edmunds is doing each play Tampa has the ball

 

Granted, this is not the full game but it once again shows me Edmunds' career deficits.  Once or twice he's in middle zone coverage and there's no one anywhere near him but he's content to sit and do nothing.  In the second half of the tape, Mike Evans catches a pass and spins away from attempted tackles by Edmunds and a teammate.  Edmunds ends up not more that 5 feet away from the guy and goes into parade jog while his teammate tries to bring down Evans.  Watch as Edmunds usually gives ground to a blocker until he's out of the play far enough to parade jog.  Tell me what stats capture this?

 

Edmunds had his best year last year because it was a contract year and he knew he had to put more effort in for the money.  But this year his habits persist and he's been in the league over 5 years now.  You may be correct that the lights come on in the next year or so but we definitely couldn't wait anymore and at this point we can't rule out he won't be this half-hearted player the rest of his career.

 

Go back to the Cover-1 video at the top of this thread and compare it to how Bernard plays the game.  Look at the aggression, look at how he feints and negotiates through the big uglies to fill holes.  How he sees the field and reacts, aggressively going to the ball.  Totally different and superior to Edmunds.  He may be smaller, but he's not going to shy away or give up from making the play.

 

Your criticisms are warranted and I also doubt he ever becomes a beast against the run.  But he's in his NFL infancy and I'm excited to see how he develops and we have to give him that time to do so.  What I do think he'll be against the run is an MLB who covers the hole at the LOS and will need help to complete tackles but will definitely at least start the tackle or influence the runner.  Will he get blown off the LOS some?  Yes, but the defensive line will play a big role in limiting that.

 

WRT playoffs, I agree his size may cause problems but I predict Bernard will be a better big playmaker than Edmunds ever was and playmakers are critical in the playoffs.  Plus, the defense as a whole will probably play faster as a unit with Bernard over Edmunds.  I saw enough with Edmunds never covering Kelce in critical moments to know at this point I'll take my chances with Bernard.  Edmunds was JAG in the playoffs.

 

The fun of it is hopefully no injuries and we'll see!  I do respect your well-founded views and thanks for taking the time to elucidate and discuss them.  Hopefully I'm right!😜    Go Bills!

Edited September 29, 2023 by GaryPinC

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

A chunk?  How about he's earned most of it on the outside runs.  

 

You may not have looked at every run, but I have.  You and I can go through them when I have time, I'm gonna be swamped from now 'til game time.  

 

I think you'll see what I'm seeing then, whether or not you agree on the prognosis I can't say.  

 

Either way, I'm tired of going back and forth on this.  My position is clear.  If I'm wrong, good for me too, we're all fans, I'll be just as happy as anyone.    

 

 

 

I have looked at every run too. 

[PBF81]

9 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Thanks for all the great content, and I definitely agree with you that Bernard's size is a definite concern.  And I feel one of Edmunds's strengths is he's a very sure tackler when making the play.  However, even though Pff gives him high grades for a low percent of missed probable tackles, can their stats accurately capture his lack of effort, hustle, and instinct to put himself in position to make more tackles? 

For me, it's why he never makes splash plays:  he's not attacking the ball enough.  He's too content to parade jog along with the play when it's more than 10 feet away from him.

 

PFF rated him highest graded defender for week 2.  Here's the extended highlights of that game.  Just focus on what Edmunds is doing each play Tampa has the ball

 

Granted, this is not the full game but it once again shows me Edmunds' career deficits.  Once or twice he's in middle zone coverage and there's no one anywhere near him but he's content to sit and do nothing.  In the second half of the tape, Mike Evans catches a pass and spins away from attempted tackles by Edmunds and a teammate.  Edmunds ends up not more that 5 feet away from the guy and goes into parade jog while his teammate tries to bring down Evans.  Watch as Edmunds usually gives ground to a blocker until he's out of the play far enough to parade jog.  Tell me what stats capture this?

 

Edmunds had his best year last year because it was a contract year and he knew he had to put more effort in for the money.  But this year his habits persist and he's been in the league over 5 years now.  You may be correct that the lights come on in the next year or so but we definitely couldn't wait anymore and at this point we can't rule out he won't be this half-hearted player the rest of his career.

 

Go back to the Cover-1 video at the top of this thread and compare it to how Bernard plays the game.  Look at the aggression, look at how he feints and negotiates through the big uglies to fill holes.  How he sees the field and reacts, aggressively going to the ball.  Totally different and superior to Edmunds.  He may be smaller, but he's not going to shy away or give up from making the play.

 

Your criticisms are warranted and I also doubt he ever becomes a beast against the run.  But he's in his NFL infancy and I'm excited to see how he develops and we have to give him that time to do so.  What I do think he'll be against the run is an MLB who covers the hole at the LOS and will need help to complete tackles but will definitely at least start the tackle or influence the runner.  Will he get blown off the LOS some?  Yes, but the defensive line will play a big role in limiting that.

 

WRT playoffs, I agree his size may cause problems but I predict Bernard will be a better big playmaker than Edmunds ever was and playmakers are critical in the playoffs.  Plus, the defense as a whole will probably play faster as a unit with Bernard over Edmunds.  I saw enough with Edmunds never covering Kelce in critical moments to know at this point I'll take my chances with Bernard.  Edmunds was JAG in the playoffs.

 

The fun of it is hopefully no injuries and we'll see!  I do respect your well-founded views and thanks for taking the time to elucidate and discuss them.  Hopefully I'm right!😜    Go Bills!

 

That's about as close to my take as I've read.

 

It's not about Edmund v. Bernard v. Williams either, to me it's about not properly and adequately having addressed the situation optimally in several years.  

 

 

[GaryPinC]

7 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's about as close to my take as I've read.

 

It's not about Edmund v. Bernard v. Williams either, to me it's about not properly and adequately having addressed the situation optimally in several years.  

 

 

I guess we'll see if they've properly addressed it by playoffs.  For the moment, I do feel better watching Bernard isolated on film.  For me, our problems at safety are now more concerning due to the age of both.  Poyer definitely looks slow now. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

I guess we'll see if they've properly addressed it by playoffs.  For the moment, I do feel better watching Bernard isolated on film.  For me, our problems at safety are now more concerning due to the age of both.  Poyer definitely looks slow now. 

 

I thought Poyer played well against Washington after two poor games. Out for Sunday though.

[GaryPinC]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I thought Poyer played well against Washington after two poor games. Out for Sunday though.

Missed seeing the game but trust your judgment.  That's good but 1 for every 3 isn't good enough.  Just saw he's out.  We'll get our first look at the future Sunday!