Do the Bills need a " Quarterback Whisperer?"

[Beck Water]

48 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

 

Here's the entire piece with the full context:

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/dan-orlovsky-analyzing-josh-allen-s-game-and-week-1-s-loss-to-the-jets

 

Definitely worth a watch/listen.

[MasterStrategist]

20 minutes ago, SCBills said:

He is getting ROCKED in the media today. 
 

And it’s not criticism of his ability .. it’s questioning his focus and desire.  Everyone acknowledges he’s as talented, maybe more talented, than anyone in the league … but the overwhelming commentary today is an annoyed refrain of “he doesn’t get it” and that’s a really wild narrative to see everywhere about a consensus elite QB. 
 

…it’s also accurate. 
 

Your comment about questioning "focus and desire", is maybe half right.   But nobody should question his desire, trying to leap defenders 5 yard short of a 1st down, etc (plenty of examples to point out).  He's harder on himself than alot of ppl, and I think that's the big concern (mental aspect of trying not to let things spiral/compound).

 

His focus, maybe.  But that's pure speculation and alot of people trying to connect the dots to his "film study comment"/hot takes from prior media reports.

 

More likely scenario, he had trouble seeing the field/reading the LBs and safeties.  That to me is concerning, because we've seen this at the end of LY too.  But we've also seen him rebound and "trust his eyes/progressions".  He needs to get back to "confident" Josh, that strikes that proper balance of risk taking.

 

Then he let the turnovers compound.  For the gamblers out there, it's that feeling of a big loss and making the problem worse by betting more/more to win it back.  Josh looked like he was "pressing".

 

IMO, it's staying "discplined" and situational awareness.  Time and place for heroics, but he's getting the team where it needs to be by playing an efficient brand of football. This has been a Josh problem every season, balance of hero-ball/staying ahead of the sticks.  Last night was a combo of all his bad habits, rearing it's ugly head.  

 

They need better 1st down/2nd down outcomes, they were behind the sticks far too often last night.

 

Move ahead to next week, I'm certain we will see a better Josh out there.

 

[Aimee75]

2 minutes ago, Dick_Cheney said:

I know it's only one game, but I think it's entirely possible he's lost focus. Celebrities are going to do what celebrities do, but things just have a different feel than when we were still under the radar and it felt like everyone was hyperfocused on truly being great. I know we are mere spectators and know little of what actually happens behind the scenes, but with all the time shooting commercials, jetting off to Cabo, and hanging out with movie stars on the golf course, I think there's a massive difference in what used to be an up and coming QB doing everything he could to prove himself.

 

I really hope they can somehow get that back. If not, I think we really might be in trouble and I hate that I'm even thinking that.

 

But, like I said, it's one game. Hopefully.

I have a few theories.

 

I would not say Josh lost "focus", but I think the weight of trying to get to the SB and bring this area a championship is weighing on him more than one could possibly know. I know he wants it as bad as we do, and god knows we made the AFCCG a few years ago, and then he did everything humanly possible to get us back to the AFCCG only to be let down by "13 seconds". It is possible he is worrying that it might never happen and it's messing with his mind. The golf, commercials and Hollywood gf are a complete escape for him. He doesn't have to worry about all the baggage and when the season comes around, it's back. At the end of the day, he is human, and really has no guidance. I don't think his maturity levels are at the same level as some of his peers like Mahomes, Burrow, Tua etc Josh seems like a big, silly kid who enjoys telling DeezNuts jokes, while the other guys I mentioned are married/having families and bigger responsibilities. Josh is just a different animal.

 

I get the "grow up" advice Dan is putting out there. I am just not sure Josh would know what to do with that, or how. He is who he is. He's a little immature, and I think been handled with kid gloves(Daboll aside) and in a town where he has been universally loved unconditionally. So I say, they should definitely hook him up with a sports doctor, and hopefully he would be open to it.

 

Listened to Mina Kimes and Foxworths podcast today and they were so confused by his play last night and why he was able to reign it in for a couple years, and now seems to be losing all control, and I was surprised they did not mention Daboll or think about the effect he had on Josh.

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I might suggest that Coaches Do Not lay into him as might be needed

I also suggest he needs his QB Coach on the sideline with him, or bring Dorsey down.

 

Joe Brady is the Bills QB coach.

 

Joe Brady is on the sideline with Josh during the game

 

Just a little reminder that none of us know what is going on as far as coaches laying into Josh.  They are not obligated (and in fact it is better if they don't) lay into Josh in public where you and I can see it.

 

7 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said:

 

If I were a professional football player who cared about the game as much as Allen claims to...option a) every time.  Girls come and go, but glory is forever.

 

We all know that both can occur.  This isn't either or

Edited September 12, 2023 by Beck Water

[bills11]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

First of all, I don't think you know what "yips" are.  You're not using that word correctly.

 

Second, holding a player accountable should not be "performance art" for the fans and casual bystanders.  That's why, after one game where Daboll was seen screaming at Josh on the sideline, he was sent up to the booth.

Yips in sports term literally means anxiousness affecting performance usually used in golf lingo.. nothing to do with performance arts either..no one is talking about public displays of anger just that accountability seems to be lacking .

[UKBillFan]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I might suggest that Coaches Do Not lay into him as might be needed

I also suggest he needs his QB Coach on the sideline with him, or bring Dorsey down.

 Josh needs a mentor when it gets ugly

Not Diggs in his ear

 and not after the game so much 

 

Why was Diggs doing the pick-me-up? It isn't a criticism of Diggs but where was Brady? When Daboll was OC, Dorsey was on the touchline with Josh.

I would like to see Dorsey back on the touchline on Sunday. Other OC's call plays from there.

[TheBrownBear]

29 minutes ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

I wouldn't say that. At one point with 35+ passes thrown he had something like 5 incompletions. The problem? 3 INTs.

 

Just gotta stop trying to make every game into a blowout, that's the real issue. It's OK to win games 16-6 sometimes.

 

He needs to get a better understanding of how he needs to play within games when it's not necessary for him to take so many risks.

I agree.  It was a huge problem last year as well, but he mostly got away with it (except for the Jets and Minnesota games).  He's always looking for the knockout blow too early when other elite QBs (Mahomes, Burrow, etc.) seem content to let the game unfold more naturally.

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, MasterStrategist said:

Your comment about questioning "focus and desire", is maybe half right.   But nobody should question his desire, trying to leap defenders 5 yard short of a 1st down, etc (plenty of examples to point out).  He's harder on himself than alot of ppl, and I think that's the big concern (mental aspect of trying not to let things spiral/compound).

 

His focus, maybe.  But that's pure speculation and alot of people trying to connect the dots to his "film study comment"/hot takes from prior media reports.

 

More likely scenario, he had trouble seeing the field/reading the LBs and safeties.  That to me is concerning, because we've seen this at the end of LY too.  But we've also seen him rebound and "trust his eyes/progressions".  He needs to get back to "confident" Josh, that strikes that proper balance of risk taking.

 

Then he let the turnovers compound.  For the gamblers out there, it's that feeling of a big loss and making the problem worse by betting more/more to win it back.  Josh looked like he was "pressing".

 

IMO, it's staying "discplined" and situational awareness.  Time and place for heroics, but he's getting the team where it needs to be by playing an efficient brand of football. This has been a Josh problem every season, balance of hero-ball/staying ahead of the sticks.  Last night was a combo of all his bad habits, rearing it's ugly head.  

 

They need better 1st down/2nd down outcomes, they were behind the sticks far too often last night.

 

Move ahead to next week, I'm certain we will see a better Josh out there.

 

Diggs had a comment last week about how he’s seen a different level of preparation from Allen.   He goes on to say we all know he gives everything he has on the field, but implies he’s seeing a different side off the field. 
 

Nobody should ever question Allen’s desire to win … on the field.

 

Thats only 3-4 hours of the week though.  
 

And I don’t know if he’s putting in the work needed for greatness … maybe he is.  But people will question that when you keep making the same mistakes over and over. 

[Believer]

20 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

Orlovsky had a dig with the "$250m" comment so it's starting - and it was always going to.

Beane paid him too much too soon… Should have tested Allen’s commitment to bringing an AFC Title and SB to Buffalo…

 

 

[billsherd]

Allen once he gets in his "I will show you what I can do" mode it spirals out of control. Not sure if anything can be done about it.

[Beck Water]

1 minute ago, bills11 said:

Yips in sports term literally means anxiousness affecting performance usually used in golf lingo.. nothing to do with performance arts either..no one is talking about public displays of anger just that accountability seems to be lacking .

 

Your statement to which I was responding about performance art was "and daboll wud get on him I don't see anyone holding him accountable now other than diggs and that's not good for the team ."

 

My point is, you seem to be conflating what you SEE (or don't see) with what is actually happening in team and position meetings and in meetings with HC/OC/QB coach etc. 

 

We don't know what's happening there.

 

As far as Yips, this from Mayo Clinic:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/yips/symptoms-causes/syc-20379021

 

Quote

The yips are involuntary wrist spasms that occur most commonly when golfers are trying to putt. However, the yips also can affect people who play other sports — such as cricket, darts and baseball.

It was once thought that the yips were always associated with performance anxiety. However, it now appears that some people have the yips due to a neurological condition affecting specific muscles. This condition is known as focal dystonia.

 

I don't think Josh is suffering from involuntary muscle spasams or focal dystonia leading to throwing INT etc.

 

I think Dan Orlovsky has a much better assessment and is worth a watch

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/dan-orlovsky-analyzing-josh-allen-s-game-and-week-1-s-loss-to-the-jets

 

[rusty shackleford]

Allen needs Davis Webb back in the QB room.

[3rdand12]

3 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

Why was Diggs doing the pick-me-up? It isn't a criticism of Diggs but where was Brady? When Daboll was OC, Dorsey was on the touchline with Josh.

I would like to see Dorsey back on the touchline on Sunday. Other OC's call plays from there.

 I am not sure why Josh was left with his own thoughts when struggling
Where is the tablet , where is the Coach working him , like a boxer between rounds. He is that type of Player.
 

this sounds weird possibly, but did he feel alone after his errors?
 

and felt he needed to make up for his first mistake ?

 

okay too weird

[Aimee75]

2 minutes ago, Believer said:

Beane paid him too much too soon… Should have tested Allen’s commitment to bringing an AFC Title and SB to Buffalo…

 

 

Oh please, after the payday he went on to put up stats close to his 3rd year breakout, and his best playoff performance ever, and 13 seconds away from a 2nd straight AFCCG.

 

We all want a Super Bowl, and he has shown he can get them there, but it is a team effort and it can't ALL be on him. Only one happy team at the end of every season. I want a SB title more than anything, but it might never happen. Just like it may never happen for Burrow or Herbert. Doesn't diminish their talent.

[Beck Water]

5 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

I agree.  It was a huge problem last year as well, but he mostly got away with it (except for the Jets and Minnesota games).  He's always looking for the knockout blow too early when other elite QBs (Mahomes, Burrow, etc.) seem content to let the game unfold more naturally.

 

Burrows lets the game come to him.  Burrows also has a HC/OC who make sure he has easy answers.

 

Mahomes has had this problem in his time, and he grew out of it.

 

It looked for a while as though Josh were growing out of it.  There have been games where Josh was very patient, very focused on taking what the defense gave him.  I don't know what's changed.

[3rdand12]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Joe Brady is the Bills QB coach.

 

Joe Brady is on the sideline with Josh during the game

 

Just a little reminder that none of us know what is going on as far as coaches laying into Josh.  They are not obligated (and in fact it is better if they don't) lay into Josh in public where you and I can see it.

 

 

We all know that both can occur.  This isn't either or

Why dont I see Joe between plays.
Maybe its the coverage that missed it.
 

But i have "read" Josh was left alone with a blank stare

 

is that true ?

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Success said:

There was someting magical about the Allen/Daboll relationship.  It's a rare one in football, imo.

 

Opposing fans have been saying that Allen is regressing without Daboll. It's hard to argue right now - though he was brilliant for long stretches last season.  

 

 

Daboll has no magic.  He was gifted the #3 QB in the NFL.  

 

Now, with a bum at QB, he's exposed.

[3rdand12]

4 minutes ago, rusty shackleford said:

Allen needs Davis Webb back in the QB room.

You might be onto something. seriously

[Jerome007]

50 minutes ago, Beast said:

Did it look like he was having fun last night?

Nope. Thanks for proving my point ha ha

 

Recall how bad he played that first game after signing his HUGE contract? Same thing.

[UKBillFan]

10 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

 I am not sure why Josh was left with his own thoughts when struggling
Where is the tablet , where is the Coach working him , like a boxer between rounds. He is that type of Player.
 

this sounds weird possibly, but did he feel alone after his errors?
 

and felt he needed to make up for his first mistake ?

 

okay too weird

 

I definitely think he felt the need to make up for his first mistake, and that's an underlying problem with Josh. When he makes an error, he wants to make up for it but he presses too much in trying to amend the error, rather than accepting it and moving on.

 

Interestingly, listening to the Orlovsky interview on the Bills site, he says they need a "Get Josh settled down" section in the playbook. I think that's what Daboll was better at than Dorsey.

Edited September 12, 2023 by UKBillFan

[TheBrownBear]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Burrows lets the game come to him.  Burrows also has a HC/OC who make sure he has easy answers.

 

Mahomes has had this problem in his time, and he grew out of it.

 

It looked for a while as though Josh were growing out of it.  There have been games where Josh was very patient, very focused on taking what the defense gave him.  I don't know what's changed.

He pretty much reached perfection in that playoff game against the Pats.  He continually checked the ball down to his backs and tight ends, and that ended up loosening everything up on the back end for the big plays to Davis, Knox and Sanders later on.  I thought the lightbulb had really gone on and I expected huge things from him going forward, which was validated in his performance the next week in KC.  But he's gone away from that once Daboll left and it seems to be getting worse and worse the further we get away from that "peak" at the end of 2021.

[NoSaint]

16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Joe Brady is the Bills QB coach.

 

Joe Brady is on the sideline with Josh during the game

 

Just a little reminder that none of us know what is going on as far as coaches laying into Josh.  They are not obligated (and in fact it is better if they don't) lay into Josh in public where you and I can see it.

 

 

We all know that both can occur.  This isn't either or

im very curious about the joe Brady-Josh relationship compared to his past with Dorsey under daboll for instance. 
 

I think we’ve seen in several moments the man is totally alone and not being prepared when we flash to the sideline during adversity 

 

let’s get a clip of Josh heaving a tablet because he’s disgusted by what the coach is showing him, right? Or talking him down cause it’s a night that he doesn’t have to be the star anymore. He played like he was trying to outdo Rodgers in a race to 35 in prime time instead of coasting out a 2 score win vs a hapless qb 17-6

Edited September 12, 2023 by NoSaint

[3rdand12]

1 minute ago, UKBillFan said:

 

I definitely think he felt the need to make up for his first mistake, and that's an underlying problem with Josh. When he makes an error, he wants to make up for it but he presses too much in trying to amend the error, rather than accepting it and moving on.

 

Interestingly, listening to the Orlovsky interview on the Bills site, he says they need a "Get Josh settled down" section on the playbook. I think that's what Daboll was better at than Dorsey.

I have mentioned my opinion about keeping a mentor in his ear on the sideline. I have not seen that, and or maybe Bills need to change up the message from said Mentor during the game.

Josh has highs and lows. We all know about that.

But during the game? He might just need a channel to listen and redirect his energies

 get the tablet out each play and show him the open receivers underneath etc

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, UKBillFan said:

 

It's difficult because what can you say to him? You're going to bench him? Trade him? Fine him? Possibly the latter. The other two options aren't truly there at the moment.

 

Yesterday does feel like a watershed moment. During previous games where he struggled, there have been excuses - particularly a poor O Line and dropped catches. Last night  the O Line was ok and, as far as I can recall, no one dropped a catch. This is the first game where there is no mitigation. It is ALL on him. Where does he go from here? Does he bounce back or completely fall apart? Five days to find out.

 

We'll, you're asking the wrong person, I'm of the mind that one of McD's major coaching flaws is that he's not a good disciplinarian.  He's to much of a "players coach.". 

 

 

[Believer]

5 minutes ago, Aimee75 said:

Oh please, after the payday he went on to put up stats close to his 3rd year breakout, and his best playoff performance ever, and 13 seconds away from a 2nd straight AFCCG.

 

We all want a Super Bowl, and he has shown he can get them there, but it is a team effort and it can't ALL be on him. Only one happy team at the end of every season. I want a SB title more than anything, but it might never happen. Just like it may never happen for Burrow or Herbert. Doesn't diminish their talent.

Agree with you… (Add Prescott to your list)… 
 

Beane hasn’t built a winning offense yet to support Allen… OL is average… No reliable running game… Diggs needs another WR.

 

Challenge is the window is starting to close on this roster… Handful of prime years left.

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, 3rdand12 said:

I have mentioned my opinion about keeping a mentor in his ear on the sideline. I have not seen that, and or maybe Bills need to change up the message from said Mentor during the game.

Josh has highs and lows. We all know about that.

But during the game? He might just need a channel to listen and redirect his energies

 get the tablet out each play and show him the open receivers underneath etc

I’d be very curious to learn about that support system with McD calling plays now, and Dorsey upstairs. 
 

what’s the infrastructure around Josh on the sideline? 

[Returntoglory]

Josh needs help. Bottom line. McD has no balls to get in his face, nor the offensive experience to do so. Our window is closing and Josh is regressing six years into his career, NOT a good sign. 

 

He should have been better prepared last night but he was not

 

Enough of this BS, it needs to be addressed and addressed NOW!

Edited September 12, 2023 by Returntoglory

[UKBillFan]

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

 

We'll, you're asking the wrong person, I'm of the mind that one of McD's major coaching flaws is that he's not a good disciplinarian.  He's to much of a "players coach.". 

 

 

 

I think that can be seen with Milano's taunting call. That's inexcusable and pushed the offense back at the end of the half. An extra 15 yards and maybe they could have got a TD on the board before the break, and possibly settle Josh down rather than see him have a meltdown in the second half.

 

But different people react differently. Some require a dressing down, some need a gentle reminder. It's about getting it right for each player.

[3rdand12]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

im very curious about the joe Brady-Josh relationship compared to his past with Dorsey under daboll for instance. 
 

I think we’ve seen in several moments the man is totally alone and not being prepared when we flash to the sideline during adversity 

 

let’s get a clip of Josh heaving a tablet because he’s disgusted by what the coach is showing him, right? Or talking him down cause it’s a night that he doesn’t have to be the star anymore. He played like he was trying to outdo Rodgers in a race to 35 in prime time instead of coasting out a 2 score win vs a hapless qb 17-6

I owe you a fine heffe weiss. or a simple Leffe.
 Someone mentioned the myriad of very good Coaches on this team. Shula perhaps might be better fit to get Josh to be the best Josh he can be.

 

Love the Kid

 feel bad for his struggles. not just the win loss column either

[NoSaint]

1 minute ago, Believer said:

Agree with you… (Add Prescott to your list)… 
 

Beane hasn’t built a winning offense yet to support Allen… OL is average… No reliable running game… Diggs needs another WR.

 

Challenge is the window is starting to close on this roster… Handful of prime years left.

the challenge is the easy years are already gone. Now we are in the grind of always a contender but some rookie qb has extra weapons all around him. 

[FireChans]

6 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

im very curious about the joe Brady-Josh relationship compared to his past with Dorsey under daboll for instance. 
 

I think we’ve seen in several moments the man is totally alone and not being prepared when we flash to the sideline during adversity 

 

let’s get a clip of Josh heaving a tablet because he’s disgusted by what the coach is showing him, right? Or talking him down cause it’s a night that he doesn’t have to be the star anymore. He played like he was trying to outdo Rodgers in a race to 35 in prime time instead of coasting out a 2 score win vs a hapless qb 17-6

Why is no one ever talking to Josh on the sideline after a mistake?

 

It could be intentional by the coverage teams. To pan to him when he’s alone. But I swear, the last time I saw so many shots of a QB isolated to the rest from the rest of his team, it was after the story broke that everyone on the Jets hated Zach Wilson.

[Airseven]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Daboll has no magic.  He was gifted the #3 QB in the NFL.  

 

Now, with a bum at QB, he's exposed.

Exposed as coach of the year.

[msw2112]

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I agree.

 

I fully recognize that it sounds ridiculous and there is little (or perhaps zero) precedence for it, but we should have let McDermott go and kept Daboll. 

His team was very impressive against Dallas the other night.

 

[Beck Water]

10 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

im very curious about the joe Brady-Josh relationship compared to his past with Dorsey under daboll for instance.

 

I don't think it's as good.   Josh has talked about Brady being a great "Xs and Os" guy.  In 2019, he also talked about how helpful it was to have Ken Dorsey, someone who has played QB.  Reading between the lines, Josh may need the input of someone who has been out there with 300 lb guys trying to flatten him every play, someone who has felt the urge to be a hero.

I have seen shots of Josh on the sideline with Joe Brady going over a tablet.

Maybe someone who was there at the game on the Bills sideline can comment, but keep in mind what we see on the broadcast is often a snapshot, and doesn't reflect the majority of the time.  So just because we see Josh on the bench by himself for a moment doesn't mean he stays that way.  And it may be known that after he FU, he wants half a minute to gather himself.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Beck Water

[UKBillFan]

1 minute ago, NoSaint said:

I’d be very curious to learn about that support system with McD calling plays now, and Dorsey upstairs. 
 

what’s the infrastructure around Josh on the sideline? 

 

I think 3rdand12 alluded to it, either on this or the "grow up" thread, but we barely see any support structure around him whenever the camera switches to the sidelines. It was a bit of a surprise to see Diggs speaking to him when the camera switched before overtime. Perhaps it was previously decided he needs to be left alone with his thoughts; if so, I feel this needs to be revisited. If need be, switch Brady and Dorsey - put Brady in the booth to watch for patterns on the field and relay them back to Dorsey, and have Dorsey beside Josh where he used to be.

[3rdand12]

10 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I’d be very curious to learn about that support system with McD calling plays now, and Dorsey upstairs. 
 

what’s the infrastructure around Josh on the sideline? 

Agreed

How is this business being run ?

 The results beg the question. This is a carry over from last season it seems.

 Just one game. yes. But some form of triage might be appropriate after the Jets

Edited September 12, 2023 by 3rdand12

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

Do the Bills need a " Quarterback?"

 

 

fixed the title for ya 😉 

[3rdand12]

3 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

His team was very impressive against Dallas the other night.

 

lets see who corrects course first

 

but really, they have no QB  lol

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Returntoglory said:

Josh is on a collision course with living up to his pre-draft expectations. 

I think I heard the word "regressed" about 20x today from various media outlets.

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, DapperCam said:

Isn’t that supposed to be Joe Brady? If Dorsey is still floundering halfway through the season, I’m assuming he will be the interim OC.

 

That would likely be Mike Shula as interim OC if needed, not Joe Brady.