The play that concerned me the most

[henry jones]

I don't have a problem with him fighting for the extra yard or two, especially on 3rd down.  The attempting to hurdle multiple guys at the same time is a problem.  Just not smart.  The "hurdle" has become his go to move unfortunately.  Looks great on film and fires up the team when successful.  Not a good idea for the longevity of his career though.  Instead of jumping over them, drive a shoulder. 

[ddaryl]

I seriously think Josh is struggling going through progressions. 

I'm looking forward  an All-22 break down to see how many times we had open WRs that Josh did not see. I know Joe Marino has comentary (I just can not listen without video reference)  but I want to see the replays myself

[Dillenger4]

22 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The play that showed me we were in trouble last night was the one where Josh tried to jump over two guys when he was 5 yards from getting a first down.  What concerns me is that Josh is not either listening to what the coaches are telling him or is sometimes unable to control his play with respect to what the coaches are telling him.  The entire off season McD, Dorsey (and Beane) have talked about how they want to get Josh to where he is not running the ball as much, and where is not taking unnecessary risks to his body while out there.  Trying to hurdle not one, but two guys, and not at the yardage marker, but 5 yards before it, shows just a stunning inability to process that kind of info.

 

I love Josh.  I think as fans we all love Josh and what he brings to the table with his talent.  But as much as folks have wanted to harp about the O line (which held up OK against a very good D line), Bernard (didn't cost us the game by any means), Dorsey's play calls (is it the calls, or is Josh not going where he needs to go), this team will only win when its QB accepts that he needs to play under control.  After last night I am beginning to question whether Josh can do that.  and if he is simply not listening to the coaches, then the answer to me isn't changing coaches.  It's sitting his butt down for a bit or having the other leaders on the team get in his face and demand better.

Too funny - i thought the exact same thing when he did it. And it wasn't even warranted. He wasn't close to gaining the down. He hurdled...just...because. He appeared to have a smirk on his face after which was odd. That whole play was weird and I agree with you 100%.

[HOUSE]

You need to accept Josh Allen for what he is, a huge competitor and you can bring in the Pope for a little chat about running but nothing will change 

 

[PBF81]

22 hours ago, Simon said:

The mistake wasn't trying to hurdle people, it was not getting the ball out in the first place.

Once he crossed the LOS, he's going to do anything he possibly can to try and convert a key 3rd down.

Just as he should.

 

I hear ya, but once it's obvious that isn't happening he really needs to take care to ensure that he doesn't further risk injury.  I remember wondering whether he's going to get injured as that play unfolded, as no doubt did many.  

 

It was clear prior to that hurdle attempt that he wasn't going to get the 1st, there were too many defenders around.  

 

 

22 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

You are not hurling two guys 5 yards from the marker and getting the first.  Just not happening.

 

Especially with more defenders clearly there.  

 

 

4 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

I seriously think Josh is struggling going through progressions. 

 

But why is the question. 

 

 

[DCofNC]

I think it’s pretty clear they have overloaded his mind with thoughts, he’s not playing loose at all.  Forcing everything.   He didn’t run on OBVIOUS running situations, see the INT where he had a 15 yard gain he could take on the ground, on third and short no less, with the sideline to just step out and avoid hits.   Instead, “don’t run, take your shot” thinking and we lose the ball.
 

Then he gets frantic in the pocket, instead of taking the short pass available, he goes out and tried to hurdle where he had no shot of and gets smashed. 
 

He played like garbage, did it in pre-season too.  I’m starting to wonder if those report of him not preparing are not more accurate than we want to believe.  I also question if that’s not why Diggs has a riff with him and the staff.  JA isn’t held to the same standard and Diggs is sick of it.  It sure doesn’t seem like we are seeing the same guy who was locked in being the best player on the field, like 2020/21.  This looks like a guy who got full of himself and thinks he can do what he wants bc he’s the man.  

[LABILLBACKER]

7 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

I seriously think Josh is struggling going through progressions. 

I'm looking forward  an All-22 break down to see how many times we had open WRs that Josh did not see. I know Joe Marino has comentary (I just can not listen without video reference)  but I want to see the replays myself

The real issue with Josh isn't as much his recklessness as it is the poor field vision.  He's always held the ball a tick longer than other qbs.  I truly believe he struggles sometimes in seeing wrs (range of vision) during his progressions.

[SoonerBillsFan]

23 hours ago, Simon said:

The mistake wasn't trying to hurdle people, it was not getting the ball out in the first place.

Once he crossed the LOS, he's going to do anything he possibly can to try and convert a key 3rd down.

Just as he should.

Agreed. He had open WR's all over the field and he just flat refuses to throw to them. I love the kid, but even the most ardent Josh supporter now has to see there is something seriously off with the kid. I have no clue what it is, but it needs to be corrected

 

 

[BillsFanNC]

23 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

 

Yes, he should have gotten the ball out sooner.  But when he didn't the answer is not to try and hurdle two guys 5 yards short of the marker.  That is the point; he has to be smarter than that.  This was a low scoring game, a punt is not a bad play.  Pin them back and come out again instead of putting yourself at risk of getting hurt.  

 

In other words you can make more than one mistake on a single play.

 

See the botched snap, recovery, then fumble.

[Toyo321]

28 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Agreed. He had open WR's all over the field and he just flat refuses to throw to them. I love the kid, but even the most ardent Josh supporter now has to see there is something seriously off with the kid. I have no clue what it is, but it needs to be corrected

 

 

Problem is I don't have any faith in Mc'D or Dorsey stepping up and doing this.  He needs the tough approach that Daboll gave him by getting in his face and letting him know he screwed up.  McD is terrible at this and all this guy does is clap his damn hands when he needs to get on his QB for these bone headed plays.  Dorsey too.  These guys need to grow a set of jewels and get in his face and tell him he damn sure is responsible for these mistakes and stop doing it. 

 

I just have zero faith in this coaching staff.  They have disappointed every Bills fan one way or another for the last 4 years.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Toyo321

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, HOUSE said:

You need to accept Josh Allen for what he is, a huge competitor and you can bring in the Pope for a little chat about running but nothing will change 

 

See, I don't think that's correct.  If have to accept him for what he is, then they should trade him for picks and start.  When I look at franchise QBs, what makes them great is decision making, not physical abilities.   Vick and Newton weren't great.  Rodgers was better than Favre, because Rodgers was a more reliable decision maker.  Elway didn't win until he became a reliable decision maker.  Brady and Peyton killed opponents with their brains.  

 

Josh needs to play with the mental discipline that Mahomes, Burrow, and Tua have.  When he does that, he will be great.  If he's never going to play with that kind of discipline, then the Bills may as well start over.  

[HOUSE]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

See, I don't think that's correct.  If have to accept him for what he is, then they should trade him for picks and start.  When I look at franchise QBs, what makes them great is decision making, not physical abilities.   Vick and Newton weren't great.  Rodgers was better than Favre, because Rodgers was a more reliable decision maker.  Elway didn't win until he became a reliable decision maker.  Brady and Peyton killed opponents with their brains.  

 

Josh needs to play with the mental discipline that Mahomes, Burrow, and Tua have.  When he does that, he will be great.  If he's never going to play with that kind of discipline, then the Bills may as well start over.  

I will bring in the Pope. It can't hurt 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:41 AM, Simon said:

The mistake wasn't trying to hurdle people, it was not getting the ball out in the first place.

Once he crossed the LOS, he's going to do anything he possibly can to try and convert a key 3rd down.

Just as he should.

It was a dumb play that risked a turnover in a game that went down to the wire. I agree w/ OP. If Josh is gonna hurdle then at least be in the proximity of a first down. Making yourself airborne like that leaves you vulnerable to big hits hence bigger chance of injury. 

[Shaw66]

42 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

I will bring in the Pope. It can't hurt 

I'll light a candle at St. Benedict's.

[Airseven]

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

You need to accept Josh Allen for what he is, a huge competitor and you can bring in the Pope for a little chat about running but nothing will change 

 

They can’t just accept it because they can’t win that way. At least not consistently through a playoff gauntlet. Something has to give… the player, the scheme, the coaches, or personnel. It’s not working.

[AuntieEm]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:39 AM, oldmanfan said:

The play that showed me we were in trouble last night was the one where Josh tried to jump over two guys when he was 5 yards from getting a first down.  What concerns me is that Josh is not either listening to what the coaches are telling him or is sometimes unable to control his play with respect to what the coaches are telling him.  The entire off season McD, Dorsey (and Beane) have talked about how they want to get Josh to where he is not running the ball as much, and where is not taking unnecessary risks to his body while out there.  Trying to hurdle not one, but two guys, and not at the yardage marker, but 5 yards before it, shows just a stunning inability to process that kind of info.

 

I love Josh.  I think as fans we all love Josh and what he brings to the table with his talent.  But as much as folks have wanted to harp about the O line (which held up OK against a very good D line), Bernard (didn't cost us the game by any means), Dorsey's play calls (is it the calls, or is Josh not going where he needs to go), this team will only win when its QB accepts that he needs to play under control.  After last night I am beginning to question whether Josh can do that.  and if he is simply not listening to the coaches, then the answer to me isn't changing coaches.  It's sitting his butt down for a bit or having the other leaders on the team get in his face and demand better.

 

  

I see exactly the same.  It was like that game last year where Singletary was laughing at how  Josh just laughs when he gets hit  like that was some badge of honor.   Or when Josh is being taken down and he in turn proceeds to grab the defender to ensure he goes down with him like dude why take a chance at having a arm crushed awkwardly under a 200+  weight  not like the other player will be able to avoid hurting you if the angles the fall at should not be  good.  A broken arm may not be serious but it would  knock him out for  a bunch of games.  

 

It's the very reason that taunting is a penalty.  As well as risking his health doing that extra  physical toughmsn stuff he could cause the other player injury so I can see an opponent  taking extra hard hit on Josh as repayment.  Tempers can flare in heat of battle and football can be a battle if you let those things slide.  Josh also is reportedly a big trash talker on field.  All well and good if you are buddies with all the players u trash talk but there will be some that take it wrong. Ala when cam Newton was talking trash near Oliver in a old clip when we practiced against carina  back years ago. 

 

 

You need to be smart as well as imo not be obnoxious.  The opponents are trying to win the game too so they aren't gonna hold back if you take shots at them either.  Qb get protections by rule taking some shots at opponents that can't follow suit is asking for payback someway somehow ...

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by AuntieEm

[Bob in STL]

Josh Allen is in his 7th NFL season and he still has people telling him to play smarter football.  Coaches, the GM, coordinators, and players are all taking to him yet he continues to make the same mistakes that high school QBs make.   

 

Troy Aikman was actually trying to be nice but at the same time he was shocked at the mistakes Josh was making.  It really was like watching a rookie on MNF. 

 

Sunday will be a big game for Josh to start the process of putting this one behind him.  One game at a time, he needs to simplify his game and get on track.  I am pulling for him but actually I am quite shocked at the regression.  

[vincec]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:50 AM, pocoboy said:

 

Agreed. It's more of an issue on the run where he got the first down and passed up ducking out of bound in order to plow into a few guys. Regardless of injury, it also increases the chances of someone popping the ball out.

 

The 'not getting the ball out in the first place' is the true problem. I don't think he and/or Dorsey are putting in the necessary effort for him to make the decisions in the time allowed. And last night he did have more time than he assumed.

He was basically one read and run if it's not there most of the night. One of the hardest parts of having good pocket awareness is being able to stand in the pocket when you have time even though you've been rushed on many other downs.

Edited September 14, 2023 by vincec

[AuntieEm]

2 hours ago, henry jones said:

I don't have a problem with him fighting for the extra yard or two, especially on 3rd down.  The attempting to hurdle multiple guys at the same time is a problem.  Just not smart.  The "hurdle" has become his go to move unfortunately.  Looks great on film and fires up the team when successful.  Not a good idea for the longevity of his career though.  Instead of jumping over them, drive a shoulder. 

 

2 hours ago, ddaryl said:

I seriously think Josh is struggling going through progressions. 

I'm looking forward  an All-22 break down to see how many times we had open WRs that Josh did not see. I know Joe Marino has comentary (I just can not listen without video reference)  but I want to see the replays myself

 

Which tells me he is not studying film well.  If it's a new wrinkles then they should be able to get a idea of what the defense is doing and maybe offer Josh a few plays to see what works against it.  But if he is having issues with say Jets  that he's seen before but they just disguise it a tad then that's concerning.

[vincec]

9 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

Josh Allen is in his 7th NFL season and he still has people telling him to play smarter football.  Coaches, the GM, coordinators, and players are all taking to him yet he continues to make the same mistakes that high school QBs make.   

 

Troy Aikman was actually trying to be nice but at the same time he was shocked at the mistakes Josh was making.  It really was like watching a rookie on MNF. 

 

Sunday will be a big game for Josh to start the process of putting this one behind him.  One game at a time, he needs to simplify his game and get on track.  I am pulling for him but actually I am quite shocked at the regression.  

I was thinking the same thing. Aikman has been an Allen critic and I was waiting for him to unleash, or at least throw an "I told you so" out there, but he was actually pretty nice about it. I don't think he wanted to pile on since the performance basically spoke for itself.

Edited September 13, 2023 by vincec

[AuntieEm]

On 9/12/2023 at 12:57 PM, NoSaint said:

it’s about the lost yards, not fear of contact.

Sometimes fear is direction toward the smarter reaction than dismissing the fear and plowing into disaster.  Except if Josh gets hurt he hurts the whole team not just himself.  

2 hours ago, HOUSE said:

You need to accept Josh Allen for what he is, a huge competitor and you can bring in the Pope for a little chat about running but nothing will change 

 

Well imo if he refuses to change for what's best for the team then he isn't a good enough team leader PERIOD.   When you play an individual sport golf  tennis go ahead do as you want it only effects u winning or losing.  If it's a team sport what you do impacts everyone on team.

Edited September 13, 2023 by AuntieEm

[SirAndrew]

I agree, and joked with several people about that play. However, it doesn’t matter much to me in a loss. Allen being a reckless runner while throwing three picks, and refusing to take what the defense gave him, doesn’t matter as much as it would in a better game. I can’t even get to the point where that concerns me when he played so poorly in every part of his game. 

[AuntieEm]

25 minutes ago, SirAndrew said:

I agree, and joked with several people about that play. However, it doesn’t matter much to me in a loss. Allen being a reckless runner while throwing three picks, and refusing to take what the defense gave him, doesn’t matter as much as it would in a better game. I can’t even get to the point where that concerns me when he played so poorly in every part of his game. 

 

I think he's understanding he can't keep playing the Hero ball the dcs have figured out how to stop him and get him rattled.  It may be a good strategy to bench Josh a play or two after one of his turnovers.  Have him watch the team matriculation a few plays  then put him back in to continue that drive without the hero ball.  If he keeps going into that bag then you keep p benching him for longer stretches until he grasps that you hurt the team you sit, no ifs ands or buts.

 

If he has to play his way then he should earn enough money to buy his own team he can be coach gm and qb1 oc and all.

[mannc]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:39 AM, oldmanfan said:

The play that showed me we were in trouble last night was the one where Josh tried to jump over two guys when he was 5 yards from getting a first down.  What concerns me is that Josh is not either listening to what the coaches are telling him or is sometimes unable to control his play with respect to what the coaches are telling him.  The entire off season McD, Dorsey (and Beane) have talked about how they want to get Josh to where he is not running the ball as much, and where is not taking unnecessary risks to his body while out there.  Trying to hurdle not one, but two guys, and not at the yardage marker, but 5 yards before it, shows just a stunning inability to process that kind of info.

 

I love Josh.  I think as fans we all love Josh and what he brings to the table with his talent.  But as much as folks have wanted to harp about the O line (which held up OK against a very good D line), Bernard (didn't cost us the game by any means), Dorsey's play calls (is it the calls, or is Josh not going where he needs to go), this team will only win when its QB accepts that he needs to play under control.  After last night I am beginning to question whether Josh can do that.  and if he is simply not listening to the coaches, then the answer to me isn't changing coaches.  It's sitting his butt down for a bit or having the other leaders on the team get in his face and demand better.

Bro, that was FAR from the most “concerning” play from JA on Monday night.  It probably doesn’t even crack the top 10 for me.  I mean, the guy was seeing ghosts…

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

Bro, that was FAR from the most “concerning” play from JA on Monday night.  It probably doesn’t even crack the top 10 for me.  I mean, the guy was seeing ghosts…

I think it hit me because it suggests he refuses to listen to his coaching staff.  They have preached all season to protect himself and not take unnecessary hits but did so for no reason there.  

[BarleyNY]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I think it hit me because it suggests he refuses to listen to his coaching staff.  They have preached all season to protect himself and not take unnecessary hits but did so for no reason there.  

 

That’s understandable. I’ve been saying this for quite a long time: Allen needs to be held accountable for disregarding directives from his coaches. Reckless plays like that one should have repercussions. Sitting Allen for a series or two in response to actions like that would hurt the team in the moment, but if it changed his behavior it would be better for everyone in the long run. It should be simple: If he doesn’t listen to his coaches, then he will hurt the team by getting benched. It’s better than him hurting the team by getting injured or having more games like Monday. 

 

The problem is that we don’t have coaches that will do something like this. 

[iinii]

On 9/12/2023 at 11:50 AM, starrymessenger said:

Perhaps the best example of what characterized his game last night. He’s an intelligent guy but he seemed mentally challenged to the point of absurdity.

That seems a bit contradictory 

1 hour ago, AuntieEm said:

 

I think he's understanding he can't keep playing the Hero ball the dcs have figured out how to stop him and get him rattled.  It may be a good strategy to bench Josh a play or two after one of his turnovers.  Have him watch the team matriculation a few plays  then put him back in to continue that drive without the hero ball.  If he keeps going into that bag then you keep p benching him for longer stretches until he grasps that you hurt the team you sit, no ifs ands or buts.

 

If he has to play his way then he should earn enough money to buy his own team he can be coach gm and qb1 oc and all.

Just take his phone. He will be fine and get the wax out of his ears. 

[SirAndrew]

7 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

The NON play that concerned me the most was 4th and 2 early in a scoreless game...Rodgers had just been knocked out the game,the entire fanbase and air was flat....the momentum was right there to seize....womp womp womp McDermott makes the decision to trot out Tyler bass for a chip shot FG....what a gutless coaching decision smh

McDermott declining a penalty on the Jets offense giving them a field goal, instead of 3rd and 23 with a longer field goal distance was also questionable. I just think it showed the same type of conservative decision making this team seems prone to. I really dislike that call with Wilson at QB especially. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by SirAndrew

[AuntieEm]

12 minutes ago, iinii said:

That seems a bit contradictory 

Just take his phone. He will be fine and get the wax out of his ears. 

Maybe he needs to start flossing his teeth when he's on the bench.  Seems to work well for Diggs and you wanna copy things from people that get their work done.   

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by AuntieEm