GOAT debate related to era Montana vs Brady

[Gregg]

If winning championships is a factor, then its Brady AINEC. But overall QB talent I would say Manning, Marino, Montana, Mahomes are right there with Brady. But Brady wins because you can't argue with 7 Super Bowl championships. 

[Mikie2times]

• So allow defenders to do whatever they want to WR's for the first 5 yards, which Brady didn't deal with after 2004. Thus slowing down his ability to get rid of the ball quickly, making him hold the ball longer
• Holding the ball longer exposes you to more physical punishment, which in Montana's time was savage. You either knocked him out or lost. Even in the early 2000's the NFL was not allowing that and by midway thru his career you couldn't touch Brady, a point most of this forum conceded long ago  
• Add in the increase in sports science, medical advances, training advances

Brady was, thus far, a player that performed the best at QB when you could avoid the major hits, when you didn't have to deal with your WR's timing getting totally F'ed in the first five yards. You could be elite at reading defenses and get the ball out quick, be accurate and clutch and nothing could stop it. All are things very few players had like Brady did, he is far better than any of his pears in excelling in this environment. That said, his weaknesses, namely his inability to perform when he is under duress and the requirement that he get the ball out quick are basically gone if he plays football in the 80's. His longevity would also be gone. Average passer rating in the 80's was 75, it's in the 90's now. It' very much all hypothetical. But this concept of a landslide victory is just not the case. It's hard to imagine how you could have done Better than Brady did in the era he played, it's equally hard to imagine how you could have done better than Montana did in the era he played. 

[Charles Romes]

If you actually watch the whole Dwight Clark “catch” NFC championship game you will notice Montana played so bad that he would have likely been benched before the final drive by todays standards.  Three horrendous picks. 

[ddaryl]

for me there is no single G.O.A.T at any position

 

there are multiple players in the conversation from different eras.... Really that what it is, all the best of the best are in the conversation 

[corta765]

So one element that needs to be factored in that is not brought up enough is the format of the league in terms of the playoffs and schedule. The NFL back then only had ten teams total make it in and there were three divisions so only two wild card spots. The 82 season more teams made it because of the strike, but the strike messed with teams badly and some teams that normally would've made it didn't. The four division structure waters down things where an 8-9 Brady team did make a playoff birth AND hosted a playoff game. Also the LA Rams actually were a real in division issue for San Fran throughout the entire 80s making the playoffs every year from 1980 - 1989 minus 81/82/82 two of which were strike years and winning the division in 85. At no point did the Patriots have an division threat that large they had to contend with which allowed NE to regularly host at least one playoff game at home.

 

Now throw in the way QBs are protected today vs the 80s when Montana was at his peak and that is another element that you cannot quantify either but it 100% has an impact.

 

Overall Brady is the GOAT to me, but Montana is the only one with a legitimate case across the board at him and factoring in these other elements it gives some real credence to the idea in todays conditions and structure he could've had a similar lasting success how Brady did.

[Chicken Boo]

All things being equal - for your life - which QB do you go with? 

 

For me it's a coin toss, but I lean Brady because of Montana's injury history.  Personally, I believe injuries are the only thing that kept Cool Joe from going 5 or 6-0 in the Super Bowl, so there's that.

 

*In the same vein, Joe Gibbs doesn't get near enough credit for winning 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs.  That's plain nuts.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Chicken Boo

[FireChans]

11 hours ago, Billl said:

Didn’t hurt that the team also had Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, Ronnie Lott, Charles Haley, Michael Carter, Bill Romanowski, Wesley Walls…

 

Montana was arguably the GOAT before Brady came along, but Brady ended any legitimate debate.

This is correct. It was a debate when it was 4-2 vs 4-0. It’s no longer a debate Brady wins. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

[Punching Bag]

Teflon™ T*m is the GOAT of cheating.  In order to evaluate career fairly you need to include that unless you are a bildo. 

[Don Otreply]

Did Joe Montana ever lose a Super Bowl? 
 

Did Joe Montana and or his team get busted for cheating on a regular basis for decades? 
 

Did Joe Montana display blatant poor sportsmanship every season of his career?

 

Now ask these questions of Tom Brady…, 

[May Day 10]

Montana and Brady are both clutch and ice in their veins and are the 2 most successful quarterbacks ever.

 

 

I, personally don't consider either the GOAT, even era-adjusted.

 

IMO, both Elway and Marino were better Quarterbacks than Montana.  Manning was a better QB than Brady (but was largely squandered by the Colts).  The new age of QBs are probably better than all of them as they are freaks.  

 

[Enemarty]

12 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Brady made his coach look better than he was.   Montana's coach made Montana look better than he was.    In my lifetime I've found the easiest way to the truth is to choose the answer with the least amount of what ifs or variables.  Brady is the GOAT and to me it's not close.  Personally, I think the larger debate here is whether Montana was better than Peyton Manning.   Hell, Mahomes should already be mentioned in the conversation for 2nd best ever.  But just like with Jordan in Basketball, there is no real discussion about who is the GOAT.

Just went through four pages and it is the first response that I agree with the most.  I've watched Montana from Notre Dame through KC.  He has always been a personal favorite of mine as he made the most of a less than athletic frame through a superior intellect.  Of course, he benefitted from a transformative offensive genius who, naturally, found his ideal quarterback in Montana.  But Brady took Montana to the next level.  Perhaps, had they played in the same era, same rules, same teammates and opponents, their play would be indistinguishable.  But for my money, Brady has a crazy intensity that sets him apart from everyone, except perhaps Peyton.  In a weird way, I think Peyton's athleticism actually worked against him at times, as he would overly rely on it to the detriment of his arguably equally superior mental game.  As a result, I think Peyton comes second to TB12 as the greatest of all time.  Bill Walsh would have been ecstatic with either Tom or Peyton.  

[Einstein]

Nothing against Montana, but anyone downgrading Brady is just hating.

 

His sustained excellence for 20 years will never be seen again.

[Nihilarian]

Many teams are still running a style of the WCO and how many QB's have won SBs, MVPs in that scheme. 

 

The GOAT is Brady no question...left NE and went to TB and won another SB. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, KzooMike said:

• So allow defenders to do whatever they want to WR's for the first 5 yards, which Brady didn't deal with after 2004. Thus slowing down his ability to get rid of the ball quickly, making him hold the ball longer
• Holding the ball longer exposes you to more physical punishment, which in Montana's time was savage. You either knocked him out or lost. Even in the early 2000's the NFL was not allowing that and by midway thru his career you couldn't touch Brady, a point most of this forum conceded long ago  
• Add in the increase in sports science, medical advances, training advances

 

Brady had won 3 Super Bowl’s before the DB rule change occurred and before the league began to crack down on QB hits.

 

Thats the most impressive part. Brady won SB’s in BOTH era’s.

 

Remember when Nate Clements knocked Brady’s block off? One of the most savage QB hits in memory and Brady won the SB that same year.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

If winning championships is a factor, then its Brady AINEC. But overall QB talent I would say Manning, Marino, Montana, Mahomes are right there with Brady. But Brady wins because you can't argue with 7 Super Bowl championships. 

 

3 MVPs, 5 super bowl MVPs, 7 championships.  He was MVP of the last undefeated regular season team.

 

Career numbers at time of retirement

1st all time in passing yards

1st all time in passing TDs

10th all time in passer rating 

3rd and 5th on the list for most passing yards in a single season

1 of 3 QBs to throw for 50 TDs in a season

 

It's not just longevity when you do it at such a high level consistently for so absurdly long.  And this is with the patriots building an offense around scat backs, slot WRs, and TE's for the majority of his time there.  

[NoHuddleKelly12]

I think we need to input all the data into Nintendo Super Tecmo Bowl and let the computer (or a few intrepid gamers like @dollars 2 donuts) tell us! 

Edited April 12, 2023 by NoHuddleKelly12

[thenorthremembers]

38 minutes ago, Enemarty said:

Just went through four pages and it is the first response that I agree with the most.  I've watched Montana from Notre Dame through KC.  He has always been a personal favorite of mine as he made the most of a less than athletic frame through a superior intellect.  Of course, he benefitted from a transformative offensive genius who, naturally, found his ideal quarterback in Montana.  But Brady took Montana to the next level.  Perhaps, had they played in the same era, same rules, same teammates and opponents, their play would be indistinguishable.  But for my money, Brady has a crazy intensity that sets him apart from everyone, except perhaps Peyton.  In a weird way, I think Peyton's athleticism actually worked against him at times, as he would overly rely on it to the detriment of his arguably equally superior mental game.  As a result, I think Peyton comes second to TB12 as the greatest of all time.  Bill Walsh would have been ecstatic with either Tom or Peyton.  

Peyton is my number 2 as well.   Had he not played in the Era of Brady, I think he would have easily won more Superbowls than Montana, but he did so its pointless to wonder.

 

Brady had the same level of intensity as Jordan.   Just an unquenchable thirst to win.   I think Tiger Woods had the same type of mindset prior to the madness in his personal life.

[MrEpsYtown]

I hate Brady. But he is the GOAT

[dollars 2 donuts]

12 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

I think we need to input all the data into Nintendo Super Tecmo Bowl and let the computer (or a few intrepid gamers like @dollars 2 donuts) tell us! 

 

 

It is a great weight you have put on my shoulders, Sir.  

 

I did not ask for this burden.  It has been thrust upon me out of necessity.

 

Please know its importance is not lost on me.

 

Let me me finish my egg McMuffin and ponder it further.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by dollars 2 donuts

[hondo in seattle]

In my mind the argument kind of runs like this...

 

I have some heartburn about Brady being crowned the GOAT...  When you look back at some past GOAT candidates like Jim Brown and even OJ, they were clearly the very best at their position in their time.  There was no debate - they dominated.  Like Babe Ruth in baseball.  In 1920, when Ruth hit 54 home runs, the next-best guy only hit 19.    

 

Brady never dominated any particular season like some other GOAT candidates did.  There were always other QBs like Rodgers and Brees who were on the top of the pyramid with Brady.   If Brady's the GOAT, it's because (1) he sustained excellence for so long and (2) he's got the rings.  

 

And I have problems with both points.  The hardware argument always bothers me because football is a team sport.  Brady didn't win his rings alone.  Even those who say Brady made Belichick, and not the other way around, will probably concede that Brady wouldn't have won as many rings with Rex Ryan as his HC or if the rest of the roster looked like the '84 or '85 Bills.  

 

And if the so-good-so-long argument is valid, we'd have to conclude that Emmit Smith is the best RB ever.  Yet I personally wouldn't put him in the top five. 

 

Plus you do have to wonder, like the OP, if Brady would have played so well for so long if he played during a more manly era.  Namath's years of effectiveness were cut short by knee injuries.  Theismann's leg was destroyed.   Steve Young's career would have been longer if not for concussions.  Some for Troy Aikman.  If sustained greatness is a criterion to be named the GOAT, Brady has an 'unfair' advantage by playing during a time when the rules treat QBs like princesses.