Brandon Beane admitting fault & not learning from his mistakes.

[starrymessenger]

32 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

Name a team with a franchise QB that hired outside the org to replace a departing OC.  More times that not, it’s an internal hire 

Not sure why the inquiry should be limited to teams with franchise QBs, except that then there will be fewer examples. Excellent rhetorical technique. Seriously, I think it’s probably happened a fair bit but not much comes to mind and I’m too lazy to research it. But even just looking at whats happening now there are a few examples: Schottenheimer to Dallas, LaFleur to the Rams, Moore to the Chargers. And didn’t Press Taylor move to Jax recently (from Indy)? And what about Hackett going to Green Bay. That Rodgers guy is pretty franchise like as QBs go.

Of course teams also fill that position internally and if thats what you are saying I agree. I hope that you arte not arguing that because the Bills have a talented young QB Dorsey was automatically a good choice. Right now it looks more to me like he is OC because he was a spare part in Carolina for five or six years.

 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, teef said:

you don't think a new coordinator can improve from one season to the next?  he may not, but to act like it can't happen is wrong.

 

not if he's a bum

[nucci]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Regarding your last sentence, I also don't understand how Dorsey is supposed to evolve into a different, much better coordinator in one off-season.  Sure, he probably picked up some experience here and there and learned some things, generally, but he's going to be the same guy next September.

That's not good.

 

 

How did he not learn anything from Daboll and keep most of that offense?

[ganesh]

20 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

Not sure why the inquiry should be limited to teams with franchise QBs, except that then there will be fewer examples. Excellent rhetorical technique. Seriously, I think it’s probably happened a fair bit but not much comes to mind and I’m too lazy to research it. But even just looking at whats happening now there are a few examples: Schottenheimer to Dallas, LaFleur to the Rams, Moore to the Chargers. And didn’t Press Taylor move to Jax recently (from Indy)? And what about Hackett going to Green Bay. That Rodgers guy is pretty franchise like as QBs go.

Of course teams also fill that position internally and if thats what you are saying I agree. I hope that you arte not arguing that because the Bills have a talented young QB Dorsey was automatically a good choice. Right now it looks more to me like he is OC because he was a spare part in Carolina for five or six years.

 

Dorsey has been the QB coach here for the past three years and probably had an excellent handle on it learning from Daboll.  He was as qualified for the job as any other OC that might have been available last year.  Dorsey did a reasonably good job to have the Bills at 13-3 in spite of what others might say.  I mean we were blowing away teams early in the season before the injuries gave in.  Our draft picks on the Offensive side were very average (Cook, Shakir) and the FA (Crowder) was done after the 1st game. 

 

I believe Dorsey will learn from this years experience and know that further creativity is required and maximize the use of our non-elite players.  

[BillsFan130]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

I’m going to pre-face this by saying that I think that our general manager overall has done an outstanding job, you don’t stay in the playoffs every year and have 13 and three seasons whenever your GM sucks
 

However

 

I agree with the take of saying one thing, and doing another, whenever it comes to the offensive line

 

It feels like we have done the bare minimum to try to put a confident offensive line on the field, start addressing it the same way that you have been addressing the defensive line but hopefully with better players

Outside of Josh Allen, I would say he’s been very average in regards to FA and the draft.

 

Josh was a grand slam pick.

 

Some horrible decisions

 

Some good decisions

 

Some “ok” decisions.

 

Josh was the pick that saved him, and definitely have to give him a ton of credit for that.

[Dr.Sack]

Dorsey should talk to Andy Reid about finding ways to scheme guys wide open in red zone or key 3rd downs. 

[Billznut]

1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said:

Dorsey should talk to Andy Reid about finding ways to scheme guys wide open in red zone or key 3rd downs. 

I think he is still saving things for the really really BIG games. Or at least that was the thought process by some this past year. 🤨

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, Lost said:

 

The real question is how many years can we afford to wait for that growth without sacrificing the prime years of our QB..

As long as it takes.   Denver waited eight or ten years before they changed coaches.  

[Freak-O]

5 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

We had no choice.  From what I understand Josh asked for Beas by name.  That's how little faith he had in the guys on the roster not named Diggs.  Crowder was the only injury there, so for our franchise QB to ask for a dude that had retired is shocking to me and signaled what kind of state our WR corps was in outside of Diggs.  This is why it must be addressed this offseason and why I see it as the biggest need along with the OL.

So Josh wanted Dorsey as OC and he asked for Beasley to be brought back? Maybe it’s time they don’t let him make such decisions? I understand him wanting people around him that he knows and is comfortable with, but I doubt they were the best options out there.

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, uticaclub said:

We are in the playoffs because Beane drafted Allen. We arent making confidence championships because Beane has missed on every other move other than trading for Diggs. 

That is incorrect Tremaine Edmunds, whether you like him or don’t like him is an excellent linebacker
 

There are no superstars in the other pics, but there are competent NFL players if you didn’t have competent NFL players you don’t go 13th at three I don’t care how good your quarterback is

 

Stop trying to downplay his achievements because it doesn’t fit your agenda

[BillsFanForever19]

11 hours ago, Rebel101 said:

Now Hodgins flashed in camp a few times. Brought a huge element to the offense big body,speed, I mean added to Diggs, Davis, McKenzie/Shakir would have gave us some great matchups. The fact Beane let him sit on the PS. Knowing Daboll knows all about Hodgins why not active. You bring in John Brown & Cole Beasley. Both old & already played themselves out of Buffalo.

 

Hodgins is a big body, but does not have speed. He's a red zone, contested catch guy who has no Special Teams ability. Also, John Brown was added 3 weeks after Hodgins was signed by the Giants. Cole Beasley after that. Beane didn't choose them over Hodgins.

 

We'll never know if Beane offered him a spot on the 53 or not when the Giants called. Very possible he did and Hodgins himself chose the Giants.

 

He's caught on with a team that had a weak roster, a weak WR core, and clearly overachieved. Good for him. But let's stop turning him into some Pro Bowl player deserving to be spoken of in the same breath as Wyatt Teller. 

 

Deep rostered teams like we were at the time put players on the Practice Squad that will be poached by less deep teams. Like Raheem Blackshear in Carolina. Good for him as well. There were spots for them there that wasn't here at the time.

Edited February 14, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[finn]

14 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Regarding your last sentence, I also don't understand how Dorsey is supposed to evolve into a different, much better coordinator in one off-season.  Sure, he probably picked up some experience here and there and learned some things, generally, but he's going to be the same guy next September.

That's not good.

 

 

I had the same thought. You look at KC with Reid and Bienemy, then you look at what we have: a rookie OC (last year), green as hell, at least in comparison. It's like assigning a newbie jockey to ride Secretariat. 

[ProcessTruster]

14 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

We had no choice.  From what I understand Josh asked for Beas by name.  That's how little faith he had in the guys on the roster not named Diggs.  Crowder was the only injury there, so for our franchise QB to ask for a dude that had retired is shocking to me and signaled what kind of state our WR corps was in outside of Diggs.  This is why it must be addressed this offseason and why I see it as the biggest need along with the OL.

Resigning Crowder back for $1.5-2m solves this.   His injury was devastating; he was really being counted on to take over the slot.  He can be the Y.   Done.  Or Beas, bc Josh trusts him and he can be acquired cheap and he is healthy.  Think Welker in his final years.  Still works. 

 

Draft the Z this year.  Outside quicks and separation.  Diggs will be doubled until this is solved.  Also, provide competition for Gabe , who they won't be offering another contract to in all likelihood.   Not a big fan of mock drafts, but those mocking Jordan Addison to the Bills for the Z make ton of sense. 

 

The owner will be pre occupied with his wife's recovery for the foreseeable future (as he should be), so this franchise is in McBeane's hands whether the fan base likes it or not.   They are 55 and 21 over the past 4 years so Pegs ain't messing with that. 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

15 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Regarding your last sentence, I also don't understand how Dorsey is supposed to evolve into a different, much better coordinator in one off-season.  Sure, he probably picked up some experience here and there and learned some things, generally, but he's going to be the same guy next September.

That's not good.

 

 

 

Wow lol.  If he's going to be the same guy next year, then he didn't pick up experience or learned things.  WTF 😂

 

Yes you can grow in one year.  You can grow during the season.  You can grow in the offseason when you look back at film and study.  I assure you, these coaches are looking at areas to clean up.  

 

We were #3 in NFL Offensive scoring this year.  And this is without a good offensive line and # WR....I mean you of all people complain about or talent on offense.  

And with that talent, Dorsey led an offense to #3 in scoring with a second half injured Allen (who lead the NFL in red zone turnovers by a big margin).

 

Dorsey had struggles this year but overall did a pretty decent job in his first year. 

 

We will be again a top scoring offense in the NFL next year.

 

44 minutes ago, finn said:

I had the same thought. You look at KC with Reid and Bienemy, then you look at what we have: a rookie OC (last year), green as hell, at least in comparison. It's like assigning a newbie jockey to ride Secretariat. 

 

Bienemy's first stint as OC was Mahomes first year as starter.  He was the running backs coach prior.  

[uticaclub]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

That is incorrect Tremaine Edmunds, whether you like him or don’t like him is an excellent linebacker
 

There are no superstars in the other pics, but there are competent NFL players if you didn’t have competent NFL players you don’t go 13th at three I don’t care how good your quarterback is

 

Stop trying to downplay his achievements because it doesn’t fit your agenda

And we are about to like Edmunds walk because we arent in a situtation to sign our own, a concept Beane often preaches.

[Billz4ever]

11 hours ago, Freak-O said:

So Josh wanted Dorsey as OC and he asked for Beasley to be brought back? Maybe it’s time they don’t let him make such decisions? I understand him wanting people around him that he knows and is comfortable with, but I doubt they were the best options out there.

Who said he made the decision?  He gave his input and the FO took his advice.

 

I think you meant to say they should ignore the input of the face of the franchise.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, uticaclub said:

And we are about to like Edmunds walk because we arent in a situtation to sign our own, a concept Beane often preaches.

You have absolutely no idea whether or not we’re going to sign Edmonds
 

The fact of the matter is we have been signing our own

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Hodgins never flashed in any training camp.  Where does this stuff come from?  He is a bottom tier prospect that caught a few passes for a NY Giants team that has one of the worst WR groups in the NFL.  He has no speed but decent size and decent hands.  He would not make the roster of most NFL teams.  He is a guy that will float from PS to PS with maybe some call-ups do to injuries.  Beane and McD make their share of mistakes, Hodgins is not one of them. 

[Shaw66]

18 hours ago, Lost said:

 

The real question is how many years can we afford to wait for that growth without sacrificing the prime years of our QB..

I don't buy the "how many years" thing.  The franchise is not being run on some kind of theory that there's a window closing, and we have to do it now, or some opportunity will be lost.    This franchise is being run for the long term, seeking to get better year over year.  

 

Their problems with the "how many years" argument.   First, as I said earlier, if the Bills panic and replace Dorsey, who do they replace him with?  If there's a McVay or Shanahan out there as an OC, he's getting a HC gig.   If there's a guy who's about to become a McVay or Shanahan, how do you know for sure?   Maybe he'll pan out in one year in Buffalo, maybe he won't.  

 

Then there's the issue of the guy coming in and changing the system.  If you found a Shanahan, he would completely revamp the running game and the passing game.   That means you have to change personnel.   It's not a one-year deal.  It's multiple years, so you're talking about major impacts to the franchise.  Plus, do you want to change the system Allen's running?

 

How about Bieniemy?  Apparently he is in the market for an OC spot?   Well, does anyone actually know how good he is?   Does he need Reid to do what Bieniemy does?   

 

Point is, it is far from clear that if you change coordinators today, the 2023 season will be better with the new guy than with an improving Dorsey.   And same question for 2024.  And if you don't win in those years, are you changing coordinators again, because if you don't win then you've failed at replacing Dorsey with someone better, so your logic would say replace him.  

 

There is a lot of logic to the continuity approach to running a franchise.  

[BillsVet]

14 hours ago, ganesh said:

Dorsey has been the QB coach here for the past three years and probably had an excellent handle on it learning from Daboll.  He was as qualified for the job as any other OC that might have been available last year.  Dorsey did a reasonably good job to have the Bills at 13-3 in spite of what others might say.  I mean we were blowing away teams early in the season before the injuries gave in.  Our draft picks on the Offensive side were very average (Cook, Shakir) and the FA (Crowder) was done after the 1st game. 

 

I believe Dorsey will learn from this years experience and know that further creativity is required and maximize the use of our non-elite players.  

 

McD went with Dorsey because, among other things, Josh would not need to learn an entirely new offense and approved the move.  But that was a false sense of security for the HC, who ultimately thought this gave him room to improve the defense even more because the offense was now sustained.

 

I've never thought McD has embraced the HC role and seems to abdicate offense over to the OC.  I would compare the promotion from coordinator to HC to becoming a general officer in the Army or Marine Corps.  You leave behind the branch you were commissioned into, become a "general" officer and thus need to see a greater picture beyond your specific background.  McD just comes off as a super-DC with personnel authority who tolerates the offensive side and doesn't want to nor try to understand the other side of the ball.  

 

Oddly enough, it's like a reverse Chan Gailey who was de fact OC, but really had little clue what George Edwards or Wannstache were doing on defense.