Dorsey’s lack of adjustments in the second half; 12 second half points in the last 3 games

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

14 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

This says it all. Bad coaching PLUS bad execution 

I honestly feel like I’m taking crazy pills on this one lol can someone point me to a sneak losing a half yard in nfl history?  And that includes years where you couldn’t push the qb from behind 
 

coaching overall for the game sure flame away…but questioning the sneak call is a little ridiculous imo. 

[I'm Spartacus]

4 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I honestly feel like I’m taking crazy pills on this one lol can someone point me to a sneak losing a half yard in nfl history?  And that includes years where you couldn’t push the qb from behind 
 

coaching overall for the game sure flame away…but questioning the sneak call is a little ridiculous imo. 

Disagree. We had 4 plays to get off the goal line. The sneak was a panic move by Dorsey and poor execution by Morse and Allen.

[Scott7975]

Im not a fan of Dorsey atm. He seems to have the same problem that Daboll had.  He doesnt mix the passing and run very well and also completely abandons it. I thought in the first half he did a good job mixing stuff up. Then came the second half where he just dropped running plays out of the playbook.  They can not expect Josh to throw every single down.  The run game was working.  They had no reason to stop using it.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

8 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

Disagree. We had 4 plays to get off the goal line. The sneak was a panic move by Dorsey and poor execution by Morse and Allen.

explain why you disagree.  Show me a sneak that has lost a half yard in nfl history and maybe you’ll swing me.  I don’t see how a play that has a 99.9% chance of being successful can be a panic move. Minny had one timeout…it was two plays to not lose a half yard.  
 

i see the titans game being brought up but that was not a traditional fall forwards sneak and josh still got back to the line which would’ve been more than good enough yesterday 

 

If you throw there…you have the same snap risk, you have a tipped ball/int risk, you have the inherent risk that you aren’t stopping the clock if you throw it away 3 times, you have a holding penalty in the end zone being a safety risk,you have an intentional grounding risk.  
 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

explain why you disagree.  Show me a sneak that has lost a half yard in nfl history and maybe you’ll swing me.  I don’t see how a play that has a 99.9% chance of being successful can be a panic move. Minny had one timeout…it was two plays to not lose a half yard.  

 

If you throw there…you have the same snap risk, you have a tipped ball/int risk, you have the inherent risk that you aren’t stopping the clock if you throw it away 3 times, you have a holding penalty in the end zone being a safety risk,you have an intentional grounding risk.  
 

 

 

Didnt the sneak in the Titans game last year lose yards?  Not every sneak makes it you know.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

9 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Didnt the sneak in the Titans game last year lose yards?  Not every sneak makes it you know.

Looks like it got back to the line to me…there’s no chance it lost even close to a half yard.  That was not a traditional sneak by any means regardless. 
 

I think people are getting confused that making it here was not losing a half yard…when we normally talk about sneaks failing it’s because they didn’t gain a yard/half yard.  If you completely reversed the qbs momentum immediately and drove him backwards I dont even think that could cause a half yard loss.
 
heck  stopping a sneak from gaining a yard is tough when you know it’s coming…can’t even believe we pulled that miracle off 

 

I’ve been looking for one I’m not blindly trying to prove a point lol I think a sneak losing a half yard has gotta be a 1000/1 chance or higher

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[I'm Spartacus]

Shotgun snap would have been more prudent, given our suspect O line.

[BillsFanSD]

17 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

Disagree. We had 4 plays to get off the goal line. The sneak was a panic move by Dorsey and poor execution by Morse and Allen.

See, this is what I'm talking about.  Your understanding of the situation is completely, totally wrong.  We didn't have to worry about four downs, and we weren't worried about getting a first down.  We just needed to run one play that kept the clock running and didn't lose yardage.  That's it. 

 

If this situation had come up with 10 minutes left to go in the game, yeah sure run a regular play.  But that wasn't the situation that came up yesterday.  

4 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

Shotgun snap would have been more prudent, given our suspect O line.

Because shotgun snaps never get mishandled, and QBs are never tackled behind the LOS.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

20 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

See, this is what I'm talking about.  Your understanding of the situation is completely, totally wrong.  We didn't have to worry about four downs, and we weren't worried about getting a first down.  We just needed to run one play that kept the clock running and didn't lose yardage.  That's it. 

 

If this situation had come up with 10 minutes left to go in the game, yeah sure run a regular play.  But that wasn't the situation that came up yesterday.  

Because shotgun snaps never get mishandled, and QBs are never tackled behind the LOS.

I’m with you man I just don’t understand it.  I don’t even see how a sneak could theoretically lose a half yard without the snap being bad.  In a shotgun snap the snap could be bad and you open yourself up to all kinds of other risks not to mention you probably need to run more plays because josh would be throwing incompletions 
 

you could rag doll the qb instantly at the line of scrimmage on a sneak and  carry him into the locker room and they’d stop it for forward progress before it lost a half yard lol the qb takes the snap moving forwards and getting pushed from behind 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[I'm Spartacus]

3 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

See, this is what I'm talking about.  Your understanding of the situation is completely, totally wrong.  We didn't have to worry about four downs, and we weren't worried about getting a first down.  We just needed to run one play that kept the clock running and didn't lose yardage.  That's it. 

 

If this situation had come up with 10 minutes left to go in the game, yeah sure run a regular play.  But that wasn't the situation that came up yesterday.  

Ok, we has 3 plays to get breathing room yardage, and 1 play to neal and run out the clock.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

Ok, we has 3 plays to get breathing room yardage, and 1 play to neal and run out the clock.

You wouldn’t need a knee…it was 2 sneaks maximum.  Minny had one timeout and there were 40ish seconds left.  You are completely misunderstanding the situation.  

If you are throwing the football there you would need more than 2 plays because josh would likely be throwing the ball away 

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[I'm Spartacus]

2 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

You wouldn’t need a knee…it was 2 sneaks maximum.  Minny had one timeout and there were 40ish seconds left.  You are completely misunderstanding the situation.  

If you are throwing the football there you would need more than 2 plays because josh would likely be throwing the ball away 

Sounds like you are a better coach than Dorsey and McDermott! You're hired!

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

2 minutes ago, I'm Spartacus said:

Sounds like you are a better coach than Dorsey and McDermott! You're hired!

Lol what?  That’s exactly what Dorsey and McDermott were doing and why they did it 🤣 

 

you are just not understanding it properly

Edited November 14, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[I'm Spartacus]

1 minute ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Lol what?  That’s exactly what Dorsey and McDermott were doing and why they did it 🤣 

Not going to argue with you anymore. My bone of contention is (a) bad execution by Allen and Morse (b) poor play calling/coaching (creativity) in critical game situations.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

4 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

It's so bizarre.  I've been going through other team's box scores to see if there's a trend with any other teams looking like a completely different team the second half.

 

There is. The Vikings.  Except in the opposite order and we saw that yesterday.

 

The Bills had that stat going for awhile were they didn't allow a 3rd quarter or 2nd half TD.

 

That's obviously gone out the window and now the stat is our own team not being able to score a TD in the second half.

Could have really used 40-seconds of clock run off late in that game…

 

But the run has no value according to Jeremy White, Howard Simon, Mike Schopp. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, I'm Spartacus said:

Not going to argue with you anymore. My bone of contention is (a) bad execution by Allen and Morse (b) poor play calling/coaching (creativity) in critical game situations.

If you had said that the first time I would’ve had no complaints lol I don’t believe the sneak decision should be included in point b but plenty of other stuff could’ve been 

[I'm Spartacus]

6 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

If you had said that the first time I would’ve had no complaints lol I don’t believe the sneak decision should be included in point b but plenty of other stuff could’ve been 

Just became a veteran poster, so I am happy (except for the Bills terrible loss)

[Billz4ever]

9 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Could have really used 40-seconds of clock run off late in that game…

 

But the run has no value according to Jeremy White, Howard Simon, Mike Schopp. 

I completely get that our offense revolves around JA.  But even bad coaches know you need to be burning clock when you have the lead, not giving the ball right back.

[mjt328]

The Bills running game ONLY works when:

1.  The defense is expecting the pass, and we catch them off guard

2.  Quarterback scrambles and designed runs

When our O-Line is asked to block head-up on a handoff and our RB needs to get 3-4 yards, we get stuffed.  Every.  Single.  Time.

 

This offense looks nice and pretty on paper, because of all the big highlight plays.  But it's absolutely terrible in short yardage (because the defense is expecting the run in those situations), and in the Red Zone (where the field has been condensed).  It also makes it difficult to run the clock out with a lead, because again... the defense is expecting more runs.

 

I honestly believe that Ken Dorsey WANTS to run more, but gives up easily (especially late in games) because it's forcing him into 3rd-longs and killing drives.

 

At the same time, our QB sees that we are struggling to score and feels the pressure to put the team on his back.  He's also bought the media hype that he can literally do anything.  So he's trying to force passes into places he's got no business, and in the process is throwing the game away.

 

[Nuncha]

5 hours ago, gobills404 said:

Even if you intentionally take a safety you still have to not fumble the snap

Had they kicked the FG in the 4th quarter none of it would have mattered. Even if the Vikes make the missed PAT we would have won 33-31 in REGULATION.

 

I'll never understand why they didn't put easy points on the board there.  We were on the 7-yard line, and it would have been an easy FG.

[gobills404]

13 minutes ago, Azucho98 said:

Had they kicked the FG in the 4th quarter none of it would have mattered. Even if the Vikes make the missed PAT we would have won 33-31 in REGULATION.

 

I'll never understand why they didn't put easy points on the board there.  We were on the 7-yard line, and it would have been an easy FG.

Because the Bills were up by 2 scores and if they kicked a field goal they still would’ve been up by 2 scores. The coaches didn’t have the power of hindsight and didn’t know Josh would make just about the worst play he could’ve possible made.

[GunnerBill]

So McDermott and Frazier didn't have great games yesterday. McDermott definitely should have kicked the FG in the 2nd half. And Frazier (albeit for sure he is coaching with one hand behind his back with that secondary and then no Edmunds) did a poor job on 3rd down.

 

But the longer term concerns I have are with Dorsey. I just don't see any creativity, I don't see any misdirection, I don't see enough one defender reads to get Josh going early in drives (drive starters were something Daboll was legit elite at), I don't see designed mismatches. At the start of the year it felt like he added two wrinkles... Diggs in the slot and more two tight end packages. The two tight end stuff has all but disappeared so other than move Diggs about a bit and then throw it to him every down what is he actually bringing?

 

And while I am not one generally to kill offensive coordinators for individual playcalls (every single one calls some clunkers it is par for the course) that series where Josh ended up throwing the pick om 4th down was baffling. 

[Wayne Cubed]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

So McDermott and Frazier didn't have great games yesterday. McDermott definitely should have kicked the FG in the 2nd half. And Frazier (albeit for sure he is coaching with one hand behind his back with that secondary and then no Edmunds) did a poor job on 3rd down.

 

But the longer term concerns I have are with Dorsey. I just don't see any creativity, I don't see any misdirection, I don't see enough one defender reads to get Josh going early in drives (drive starters were something Daboll was legit elite at), I don't see designed mismatches. At the start of the year it felt like he added two wrinkles... Diggs in the slot and more two tight end packages. The two tight end stuff has all but disappeared so other than move Diggs about a bit and then throw it to him every down what is he actually bringing?

 

And while I am not one generally to kill offensive coordinators for individual playcalls (every single one calls some clunkers it is par for the course) that series where Josh ended up throwing the pick om 4th down was baffling. 

 

I said it in another thread. 

 

Tell me what the Bills offense does well. What do they execute when you absolutely have to have it? I don't think it's anything at the moment. If it's not Josh improvising it's Diggs on a choice route. And it seems Davis is pretty awful when it comes to a choice route. There's not one play I can think of where it's the Bills bread and butter and they can go back to it.

[Nuncha]

1 hour ago, gobills404 said:

Because the Bills were up by 2 scores and if they kicked a field goal they still would’ve been up by 2 scores. The coaches didn’t have the power of hindsight and didn’t know Josh would make just about the worst play he could’ve possible made.

We were up by 2 scores, but a 2 score lead with an extra FG would have resulted in a W.

 

Take the easy points always, ESPECIALLY against good teams who have been coming from behind and winning games.

[Big Blitz]

McD could have got on the head set and said absolutely not - call your best Josh Allen rollout with a pass option.  
 

But we don’t think like that late in games.  

[Chaos]

10 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

McD could have got on the head set and said absolutely not - call your best Josh Allen rollout with a pass option.  
 

But we don’t think like that late in games.  

and burn five seconds, and throw it away, or gain the yards needed to take a knee.  rinse repeat.  Then take the safety if needed on fourth down. 

 

[Donuts and Doritos]

Dorsey's press conference today, didn't sound like he's going to change much. Defended the play calling, didn't hear any "I have to do a better job" McD uses. Instead Dorsey said they were going to "continue to be aggressive". Translation, I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing. Link below:

 

https://youtu.be/Vy68ECpyn-w

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Donuts and Doritos

[Nihilarian]

7 hours ago, Dan said:

Quoted so its not buried. You nailed it. #2 and 3, in particular seem outrageous.  Singletary, in my mind, is starting to feel like the Fred Jackson situation.  We ha have a pretty good RB, he always picks up positive yards, rarely tackled for a loss; yet they are constantly looking for a replacement and/or abandon running with him all together.   It makes no sense. 
 

Just saying, 

 

First series for Buffalo in 2nd half...Singletary run, no gain. Josh Allen pass to Diggs for 18 yards. Singletary up mid for one yard. Allen Sacked, -13 yards. PUNT.

 

Second series, Singletary LG no gain, Singletary LG 5 yards. Penalty on Eagles 1st down. Pass, Diggs 11 yards, pass Knox 22 yards, Cook left end +8 yards. Pass, incomplete. run by Duke Johnson no gain. Penalty false start, FG. 

 

Third series, pass incomplete, pass incomplete. Allen run, no gain, penalty on Brown holding. pass to Diggs 25 yards.

1st down.  Singletary LG no gain. Allen Sacked -6. pass Davis 22 yards. 1st down

Pass incomplete. Run by Cook 7 yards. Pass Diggs 16 yards. Pass McKenzie 8 yards. pass incomplete, pass incomplete. pass interception.

 

Fourth series, pass complete no gain. penalty Diggs false start. pass incomplete, pass incomplete. PUNT. 

 

Fifth series, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, FG. (against the team supposedly worst in the NFL in the red zone)

 

OT, Allen run +18, Allen run +20, pass Diggs +7, pass Diggs +7. Pass incomplete. pass interception.

 

Diggs 12 of 16 for 128 yards. Davis 6 of 9 for 93, 1 TD. 

 

Mistakes by the offense. a bunch of incomplete passes. defense keying on Singletary. turnovers. 

 

What this team is missing is that Cole Beasley slot WR first down maker. Why not more of Knox, Shakir, Hines? Just move the chains! 

 

So much of the game on QB Josh Allen's shoulders...

[Dan]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

Just saying, 

 

First series for Buffalo in 2nd half...Singletary run, no gain. Josh Allen pass to Diggs for 18 yards. Singletary up mid for one yard. Allen Sacked, -13 yards. PUNT.

 

Second series, Singletary LG no gain, Singletary LG 5 yards. Penalty on Eagles 1st down. Pass, Diggs 11 yards, pass Knox 22 yards, Cook left end +8 yards. Pass, incomplete. run by Duke Johnson no gain. Penalty false start, FG. 

 

Third series, pass incomplete, pass incomplete. Allen run, no gain, penalty on Brown holding. pass to Diggs 25 yards.

1st down.  Singletary LG no gain. Allen Sacked -6. pass Davis 22 yards. 1st down

Pass incomplete. Run by Cook 7 yards. Pass Diggs 16 yards. Pass McKenzie 8 yards. pass incomplete, pass incomplete. pass interception.

 

Fourth series, pass complete no gain. penalty Diggs false start. pass incomplete, pass incomplete. PUNT. 

 

Fifth series, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, FG. (against the team supposedly worst in the NFL in the red zone)

 

OT, Allen run +18, Allen run +20, pass Diggs +7, pass Diggs +7. Pass incomplete. pass interception.

 

Diggs 12 of 16 for 128 yards. Davis 6 of 9 for 93, 1 TD. 

 

Mistakes by the offense. a bunch of incomplete passes. defense keying on Singletary. turnovers. 

 

What this team is missing is that Cole Beasley slot WR first down maker. Why not more of Knox, Shakir, Hines? Just move the chains! 

 

So much of the game on QB Josh Allen's shoulders...

So 5 runs in the 2nd half?  

[Best Williams Available]

I have to assume that in the last 2 years prior, everything said in this thread has been said with Brian Daboll’s name in place of Ken Dorsey’s.

[boyst]

Dorsey gonna get scapegoated for McD. That's all that matters. 

[Scott7975]

7 hours ago, gobills404 said:

Because the Bills were up by 2 scores and if they kicked a field goal they still would’ve been up by 2 scores. The coaches didn’t have the power of hindsight and didn’t know Josh would make just about the worst play he could’ve possible made.

 

2 TDs plus 2 two point conversions.  Kick the FG and take the points there.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

Just saying, 

 

First series for Buffalo in 2nd half...Singletary run, no gain. Josh Allen pass to Diggs for 18 yards. Singletary up mid for one yard. Allen Sacked, -13 yards. PUNT.

 

Second series, Singletary LG no gain, Singletary LG 5 yards. Penalty on Eagles 1st down. Pass, Diggs 11 yards, pass Knox 22 yards, Cook left end +8 yards. Pass, incomplete. run by Duke Johnson no gain. Penalty false start, FG. 

 

Third series, pass incomplete, pass incomplete. Allen run, no gain, penalty on Brown holding. pass to Diggs 25 yards.

1st down.  Singletary LG no gain. Allen Sacked -6. pass Davis 22 yards. 1st down

Pass incomplete. Run by Cook 7 yards. Pass Diggs 16 yards. Pass McKenzie 8 yards. pass incomplete, pass incomplete. pass interception.

 

Fourth series, pass complete no gain. penalty Diggs false start. pass incomplete, pass incomplete. PUNT. 

 

Fifth series, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, FG. (against the team supposedly worst in the NFL in the red zone)

 

OT, Allen run +18, Allen run +20, pass Diggs +7, pass Diggs +7. Pass incomplete. pass interception.

 

Diggs 12 of 16 for 128 yards. Davis 6 of 9 for 93, 1 TD. 

 

Mistakes by the offense. a bunch of incomplete passes. defense keying on Singletary. turnovers. 

 

What this team is missing is that Cole Beasley slot WR first down maker. Why not more of Knox, Shakir, Hines? Just move the chains! 

 

So much of the game on QB Josh Allen's shoulders...

 

McKenzie 4 of 5 for 37 yards 1 carry 18 yards. 3 of these were for a first down.  His carry was for a first down.  The other catch was for 8 yards on first down.

Knox 4 of 6 for 57 yards.  Didnt really look into the deets on Knox catches but 2 of them were on the final drive of regulation and for first downs.

 

Both of these guys were instrumental on the last drive of regulation that tied the game.

 

It isnt lack of Beasley.  Its lack of Dorsey's offense and lack of Josh reading the field.

[gobills404]

46 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

2 TDs plus 2 two point conversions.  Kick the FG and take the points there.

That’s 16 points. If the Bills convert and score a TD they would’ve been up 17 points a.k.a. a 3 score game

Edited November 15, 2022 by gobills404

[Bimmer323i]

What gets me is it’s towards the end of the 3rd quarter we’re up 27-10 and we’re dropping back passing as if we’re down 17 points… Isn’t that the time to be running the ball trying  to run time off the clock yet we’re just dropping back every play slinging it all over… I just don’t get it

[Dr.Sack]

I’m happy kicking a FG on every drive. Get me 10 drives and 30 points. Coach the defense McD.

[UKBillFan]

3 hours ago, Bimmer323i said:

What gets me is it’s towards the end of the 3rd quarter we’re up 27-10 and we’re dropping back passing as if we’re down 17 points… Isn’t that the time to be running the ball trying  to run time off the clock yet we’re just dropping back every play slinging it all over… I just don’t get it

We did the same in the second half against the Packers. It’s as though they were up a ton, by consistently running the ball, and we were chasing the game. If it doesn’t stand out now it never will - we cannot trust Josh’s passing game.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

20 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Late in the 4th quarter, Bills have the lead with 3 minutes left, Vikings have ONE time out. What does Dorsey do? Pass, Pass, Pass, Punt. Runs absolutely no time off the clock. Just horrible play calling.

I said it in the game day thread, this team just refuses to hand the ball off.

 

Refuses to just line James Cook up in the backfield and give him the ball.

 

Constantly talking about putting RB’s in the slot, putting 2 of them in the backfield at the same time, and we’ve seen none of that, and never will. 
 

Why would I as a Bills fan be excited about Nyheim Hines playing slot WR? A small, limited catch radius player?  We already have a faster version of that in McKenzie and he’s completely ineffective.
 

These delusional thoughts about how to manufacture touches instead of just getting these backs carries. 

 

This team still can’t get 1-yard when they need it. Been a problem for 3-years now. 

And so Josh will shoulder that load too and take it on himself to run even more. 

6 hours ago, Dan said:

So 5 runs in the 2nd half?  

We called 8 runs in the 2nd half.

 

The first play of the 2nd half was a 9-yard run by Singletary called back for a hold.

 

So 7 runs the entire second half. 

5 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

McKenzie 4 of 5 for 37 yards 1 carry 18 yards. 3 of these were for a first down.  His carry was for a first down.  The other catch was for 8 yards on first down.

Knox 4 of 6 for 57 yards.  Didnt really look into the deets on Knox catches but 2 of them were on the final drive of regulation and for first downs.

 

Both of these guys were instrumental on the last drive of regulation that tied the game.

 

It isnt lack of Beasley.  Its lack of Dorsey's offense and lack of Josh reading the field.

Shakir, 1 catch 6 yards on no playing time again. 

[LyndonvilleBill]

Didn't they bring in another coach when Dorsey got the job that had OC experience? Don't recall who it was, but I remember some posters discussing it back then.

 

Dorsey just needs to stop thinking like a QB. He supposed to help keep Allen on plan, but he seems to be bringing out the " Sugar High" Josh Allen. May need someone with a more calming demeanor. Dorsey gets as Jacked up as Allen does. Maybe even more.

[Jerry Jabber]

48 minutes ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

Didn't they bring in another coach when Dorsey got the job that had OC experience? Don't recall who it was, but I remember some posters discussing it back then.

 

Dorsey just needs to stop thinking like a QB. He supposed to help keep Allen on plan, but he seems to be bringing out the " Sugar High" Josh Allen. May need someone with a more calming demeanor. Dorsey gets as Jacked up as Allen does. Maybe even more.

Aaron Kromer