How many of the core ST Aces do they keep?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 hours ago, Georgie said:

Hodgins has played ST in both preseason games. I dont think The "core" ST vets are guranteed a roster spot and Bills have young guys getting ST reps.

Blackshear RETURNS kicks but I haven't noticed him covering. Even if Bills would cut Jones, Blackshear would be the 5th RB and I dont expect them to keep that many on the 53. I like the 4 of Motor,Moss, Johnson and Cook,with the latter 2 returning kicks. Blackshear might force his way onto the roster.

Cam Lewis been a gunner this summer and provides CB depth. 

All the backup LBs play ST.

 

Think Blackshear would be the 4th.  Doubt they'd keep Johnson over him as better chance they can sneak Johnson to the PS.  Plus Blackshear saves them money

[mrags]

1 minute ago, Bob in STL said:

Maybe Ariza will be special but you don’t know if this is true yet.  Especially in wind and bad weather.  
 

Ariza has just one NFL punt to his name.   The trade-off is kicking high and relying on coverage versus kicking line drives that are much deeper.   Every team has opted to get their punters to kick high and hang time is critical for punt coverage.  
 

What is to stop  a team from putting a second deep return guy out there to catch balls that have out kicked the coverage?   There will be returns and sooner or later teams will break one.  Ariza is working on situational punting that includes higher kicks that have more hang time than he typically gets.  
 

To suggest getting rid of our best punt coverage players on the hope that Ariza kicks everything for a touchback is unrealistic at this point.  

1. I’ll take my chances. We punted 2nd fewest in the league last year. 
 

2. Every other team practices that because none of them have the punt god that can kick it a mile. For the 100th time, the amount we will be punting, and our offense being as good as it is, I would doubt there’s anymore than 5 times we’re pinned inside our own 30 yard line and need to punt. Anything past that yardage mark is almost a guarantee to punt it super deep or into the end zone. There’s about a 18-21 yard sweet spot for him where you would punt it. Because anything within 10 yards of mod field on either side your going to punt it from your own 39, or kick a fg from their 39. Anything in between your offense is likely going for it on 4th down. 
 

3. Teams wouldn’t put another returner that deep because then they leave themselves susceptible to a fake punt. Or, they limit their coverage on the gunners that we have limited by cutting all the aces and out in guys like Hodgins or Neal or Blackshear. 
 

4. A risk I’m willing to take because special teams is on the field less than any group of the team. I’d much rather have players that can play actual offensive or defensive positions. 
 

I say this with the expectation that none of this is happening because McDermott loves his STs aces too much. But I think it’s a mistake. There’s people out there that put up stats and analytics on why it’s wrong to punt at all. 

17 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

What is your opinion on how he handled his duty.?

 

 

Hard to tell from where I was sitting in the end zone. Once the play starts it becomes a jumbled mess. Way to hard to see what’s going on 50 yards downfield in a big pile. And like most others watching on TV that didn’t even know he was out there, they don’t show detailed replays of that stuff so I couldn’t even see that much. 
 

I was admittedly  just watching and enjoying football while the plays were happening as well. Not specifically looking for certain players. 

[mrags]

9 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

He doesn't boot them that far consistently. He didn't in college.  

 

Bass does not have a 100% touch back success in his career

 

We need ST coverage players 

I’ll take my chances. It doesn’t happen enough for me to sacrifice real players at real positions. 
 

guys that catch 4 balls a year as a WR is a waste of a roster spot. Guys that run the ball 3 times a year is a waste of a roster spot. 
 

I could keep a guy like Matakevich because he does have ability on defense. But guys like Kumerow and Jones should be gone imo. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

50 minutes ago, DCbillsfan said:

I think Spector makes the 53. Smith is suspended the first 6 games. Dodson I believe is an RFA after the season and Smith, Matakevich, and Edmunds are FAs.  So it makes sense to keep Spector due to probable turnover.  I think Hodgins beats out Kumerow.  Hodgins has 2 years left on his deal.  As long as Hodgins does alright on teams he should beat out Kumerow.  I'm hoping Morris beats out Sweeney.  That would be another young cheap guy.  Sweeney is a JAG.  As good as Blackshear has looked, he's done it against mostly third stringers.  I think they'll try to put him on the PS.

 

True about Smith, that may be Spectors break onto roster.  I'm more leaning towards them keeping Hodgins and Kumerow.  Might come down to a 7th WR or 3 TE's. 

 

Just read an article in the Athletic.  Based on who played when first series with Allen, TE's were Morris Sweeny and Gilliam.  Howard only played with 2nd team.  His thinking is they may be trying to trade Howard as not worth cutting him as salary is almost completely guaranteed.  But still think when you add that Gilliam can play some TE, think you only need to keep  two plus him.

 

I'm torn on Blackshear, he did look very good, but was against 3rd stringers.  Am worried about him making it to PS, but every year there are a couple guys like that, everyone think will be grabbed by another team, but never are.  Think it will come down to Blackshear or Jones.

[NoSaint]

6 minutes ago, mrags said:

1. I’ll take my chances. We punted 2nd fewest in the league last year. 
 

2. Every other team practices that because none of them have the punt god that can kick it a mile. For the 100th time, the amount we will be punting, and our offense being as good as it is, I would doubt there’s anymore than 5 times we’re pinned inside our own 30 yard line and need to punt. Anything past that yardage mark is almost a guarantee to punt it super deep or into the end zone. There’s about a 18-21 yard sweet spot for him where you would punt it. Because anything within 10 yards of mod field on either side your going to punt it from your own 39, or kick a fg from their 39. Anything in between your offense is likely going for it on 4th down. 
 

3. Teams wouldn’t put another returner that deep because then they leave themselves susceptible to a fake punt. Or, they limit their coverage on the gunners that we have limited by cutting all the aces and out in guys like Hodgins or Neal or Blackshear. 
 

4. A risk I’m willing to take because special teams is on the field less than any group of the team. I’d much rather have players that can play actual offensive or defensive positions. 
 

I say this with the expectation that none of this is happening because McDermott loves his STs aces too much. But I think it’s a mistake. There’s people out there that put up stats and analytics on why it’s wrong to punt at all. 

Hard to tell from where I was sitting in the end zone. Once the play starts it becomes a jumbled mess. Way to hard to see what’s going on 50 yards downfield in a big pile. And like most others watching on TV that didn’t even know he was out there, they don’t show detailed replays of that stuff so I couldn’t even see that much. 
 

I was admittedly  just watching and enjoying football while the plays were happening as well. Not specifically looking for certain players. 

yup. 2nd fewest punts and at any time could put kicks on autopilot by putting them through the end zone. If we chose, we could likely have a historically low number of kicks covered. 
 

While I like the tool of high kickoffs in our tool box… if it means cutting 2 guys that we think will contribute to another team it’s less exciting. The DB, WR and RB won’t likely all 3 contribute a ton but odds are one of them will be a heavy contributor in a playoff game due to injuries 

[mrags]

Just now, NoSaint said:

yup. 2nd fewest punts and at any time could put kicks on autopilot by putting them through the end zone. If we chose, we could likely have a historically low number of kicks covered. 
 

While I like the tool of high kickoffs in our tool box… if it means cutting 2 guys that we think will contribute to another team it’s less exciting. The DB, WR and RB won’t likely all 3 contribute a ton but odds are one of them will be a heavy contributor in a playoff game due to injuries 

Not to mention that next year we will be losing some guys and shouldn’t chance it by cutting a guy and hoping that he makes the PS for another year. 
 

a guy like Blackshear could fill in as a top 3 RB next year after we lose Singletary. Then he could be a top 2 with Cook in 2 years after we lose Moss. 
 

a guy like Hodgins would easily surpass Kumerows accomplishments on offense of he can just be a body on STs. Which he was out on every single kick team  just like Blackshear was yesterday. 
 

Matakevich not only is gone next year, he would save you about 3m in salary’s cap this year if you were to cut him. I’d easily keep Spector over him. 
 

again, I’m not saying to get rid of all of them, but I’d easily cut 2 of them as it’s not as integral to our success anymore. The league is trying to eliminate kickoffs altogether as it is. It’s the way the league is trending with rules on kickoffs. With the 25 yard starting spot for TBs. we have too talented of a roster to be cutting guys that can produce on offense or defense for a guy that can gun on punts. It’s comical imo. 

[ddaryl]

12 minutes ago, mrags said:

I’ll take my chances. It doesn’t happen enough for me to sacrifice real players at real positions. 
 

guys that catch 4 balls a year as a WR is a waste of a roster spot. Guys that run the ball 3 times a year is a waste of a roster spot. 
 

I could keep a guy like Matakevich because he does have ability on defense. But guys like Kumerow and Jones should be gone imo. 

 

 

Take your chances ?

Bass 

 

56 % last year were TBs

70% in 2020

 

 

.

 

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tyler-bass-player-stats?category=kickoffsandpunts&seasonType=reg. 

 

 

Punting won't be much different stats wise IMO

 

On average and a guesstimate on my part.. 40% of these plays will be returnable. Too much to ignore solid ST contributors here. 

 

That kind of gross negligents increases the likeliness of getting bit in the ass

 

I can see us keeping a couple of bubble players but we're still keeping a few vets ST players

Edited August 21, 2022 by ddaryl

[mrags]

Just now, ddaryl said:

 

 

Take your chances ?

Bass 

 

56 % last year were TBs

70% in 2020

 

 

.

 

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tyler-bass-player-stats?category=kickoffsandpunts&seasonType=reg. 

 

 

Punting won't be much different stats wise IMO

 

On average and a guesstimate on my part.. 40% of these plays will be returnable. Too much to ignore solid ST contributors here. 

 

That kind of gross negligents increases the liveliness of getting bit in the ass

 

I can see us keeping a couple of bubble players but we're still keeping a few vets ST players

Yes. Take my chances. Special teams is barely part of the game anymore. 
 

last I checked there aren’t any punt gunners or returners in the HOF but there is a punter. 
 

Just take your chances and boot it as far as you can every time. Forget hang time. Forget trying to pin them deep. Just get that team off the field as quickly as possible and boot it through the stands. 
 

and Bass. An absolutely kick it into the end zone. I don’t believe his numbers are correct because I think they gameplan and play call to have it kicked shorter to encourage a return to try and pin them deep. I think it’s a mistake. I would just tell Bass to make it a TB every time. And I have no doubt he can if asked. But that’s my opinion. And we’ll never know which one of us is correct anyway. 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

not the point I was making.

 

there are fewer meaningful special teams snaps today than possibly any point in history. There have been rule changes and better training of kickers. Throw in our offense punting less because they are good. 
 

A kick coverage guy has never had fewer impactful snaps in the history of this team. It’s not discounting their skill or ability.

It takes just one play to completely change the outcome of the game.  You don’t want to lose games on a special teams mishap.

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Deadstroke said:

I disagree.  If one of our 1-4 receivers get hurt, he moves up.  

 

OK but so what? Hodgins to me looks like a David Nelson clone. Nothing special about him. Don't really see him being an equivalent upgrade over Kumerow as a WR as Kumerow is to Hodgins on ST.

 

They have Shakir for that.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Big Turk

[Son of a K-Gun]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

I’ll take my chances. It doesn’t happen enough for me to sacrifice real players at real positions. 
 

guys that catch 4 balls a year as a WR is a waste of a roster spot. Guys that run the ball 3 times a year is a waste of a roster spot. 
 

I could keep a guy like Matakevich because he does have ability on defense. But guys like Kumerow and Jones should be gone imo. 

You’re kinda proving the point to keep ST aces…”guys that catch 4 balls a year as a WR is a waste of a roster spot.”

 

Last season McKenzie was the 5th WR and he had 20 catches, 11 of which were in one game.  There just aren’t that many targets left for whoever the 6th WR is going to be, so why not use that spot on a guy that contributes on ST?  Your 6th WR, 4th RB, 5th LB types must contribute on Special Teams, that’s how a roster is constructed.

 

this isn’t me saying that Kumerow and Jones have to be on the 53, but the Bills need to have these roster spots filled with guys that are core 4 STers.

[Bob in STL]

 

 

1 hour ago, mrags said:

Yes. Take my chances. Special teams is barely part of the game anymore. 
 

last I checked there aren’t any punt gunners or returners in the HOF but there is a punter. 
 

Just take your chances and boot it as far as you can every time. Forget hang time. Forget trying to pin them deep. Just get that team off the field as quickly as possible and boot it through the stands. 
 

and Bass. An absolutely kick it into the end zone. I don’t believe his numbers are correct because I think they gameplan and play call to have it kicked shorter to encourage a return to try and pin them deep. I think it’s a mistake. I would just tell Bass to make it a TB every time. And I have no doubt he can if asked. But that’s my opinion. And we’ll never know which one of us is correct anyway. 

 

Special Teams is certainly a big part of the game, hence this conversation.  Every play is important and the margin for error to win a SB is very low. 

 

Do you recall the special teams gaff last year with 13 seconds left.  We kicked it out of the end zone.  A high, fieldable, and coverable kickoff would have burned the clock down to 7 or 8 seconds and dramatically improved our chances to win.  Now you want to make that our strategy, just kick everything out of the end zone?  In any weather, any time?  
 

Do you recall all the bad weather games and the wind at New Era Field? 
 

If your young favorite rookies can fill the ST needs then they will have a shot to make the team. I trust McDermott and Beane to make that call.  A #4 RB and a #6/7 wideout must contribute something more than being a backup to a backup.  
 

BTW, we gave up 160 yards on 6 kickoffs yesterday.   McD purposely sat his top kick coverage guys so he is looking deeply at everything that you are concerned about.   The coverage was one of the few parts of the Bills game that was mediocre.  

After the next game McD and Beane will have decisions to make and I doubt they will treat kick coverage as “barely part of the game”.  

Edited August 21, 2022 by Bob in STL

[Son of a K-Gun]

59 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

OK but so what? Hodgins to me looks like a David Nelson clone. Nothing special about him. Don't really see him being an equivalent upgrade over Kumerow as a WR as Kumerow is to Hodgins on ST.

 

They have Shakir for that.

 Off topic (sorry), but my wife watches Instagram reels all the time and the other day I catch David Nelson on her phone…apparently his wife is some kind of Instagram influencer?  Just funny to see his name brought up here after just seeing him.

[mrags]

You can all believe what you want. I really don’t care. I think it’s idiotic to keep special teams aces on a team unless it’s a guy that has the ability to return a punt or a kick on any given play. There’s been like 4 Devin Hesters in the leagues history. Anything less than that us a waste of a roster spot. 
 

enjoy your opinions. I’ll enjoy mine 

[Logic]

All of them.

 

Jones, Matakevitch, Neal, and Kumerow are all making the roster.

[BringBackFergy]

Haack

[GoBills808]

17 minutes ago, mrags said:

You can all believe what you want. I really don’t care. I think it’s idiotic to keep special teams aces on a team unless it’s a guy that has the ability to return a punt or a kick on any given play. There’s been like 4 Devin Hesters in the leagues history. Anything less than that us a waste of a roster spot. 
 

enjoy your opinions. I’ll enjoy mine 

I agree. I think the focus on special teams is borderline ridiculous.

 

If it was important it would be manned by your best players, not third stringers and rookies.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

Take your chances ?

Bass 

 

56 % last year were TBs

70% in 2020

 

 

.

 

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/tyler-bass-player-stats?category=kickoffsandpunts&seasonType=reg. 

 

 

Punting won't be much different stats wise IMO

 

On average and a guesstimate on my part.. 40% of these plays will be returnable. Too much to ignore solid ST contributors here. 

 

That kind of gross negligents increases the likeliness of getting bit in the ass

 

I can see us keeping a couple of bubble players but we're still keeping a few vets ST players

 

That's rather misleading as pretty certain Bass could have kicked it through the end zone likely every week except maybe the Monday night against NE

 

2 hours ago, mrags said:

Yes. Take my chances. Special teams is barely part of the game anymore. 
 

last I checked there aren’t any punt gunners or returners in the HOF but there is a punter. 
 

Just take your chances and boot it as far as you can every time. Forget hang time. Forget trying to pin them deep. Just get that team off the field as quickly as possible and boot it through the stands. 
 

and Bass. An absolutely kick it into the end zone. I don’t believe his numbers are correct because I think they gameplan and play call to have it kicked shorter to encourage a return to try and pin them deep. I think it’s a mistake. I would just tell Bass to make it a TB every time. And I have no doubt he can if asked. But that’s my opinion. And we’ll never know which one of us is correct anyway. 

 

41 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

 

 

 

Special Teams is certainly a big part of the game, hence this conversation.  Every play is important and the margin for error to win a SB is very low. 

 

Do you recall the special teams gaff last year with 13 seconds left.  We kicked it out of the end zone.  A high, fieldable, and coverable kickoff would have burned the clock down to 7 or 8 seconds and dramatically improved our chances to win.  Now you want to make that our strategy, just kick everything out of the end zone?  In any weather, any time?  
 

Do you recall all the bad weather games and the wind at New Era Field? 
 

If your young favorite rookies can fill the ST needs then they will have a shot to make the team. I trust McDermott and Beane to make that call.  A #4 RB and a #6/7 wideout must contribute something more than being a backup to a backup.  
 

BTW, we gave up 160 yards on 6 kickoffs yesterday.   McD purposely sat his top kick coverage guys so he is looking deeply at everything that you are concerned about.   The coverage was one of the few parts of the Bills game that was mediocre.  

After the next game McD and Beane will have decisions to make and I doubt they will treat kick coverage as “barely part of the game”.  

 

I wouldn't make kicking through the endzone the strategy for the entire season.  But would do it the first 5 or 6 weeks.  Let guys like Spector, Blackshear, and Hodgins get some experience, after that I'd trust them or if they still aren't getting it, then scan the waiver wire for some players with a fair amount of ST experience which likely isn't too hard to find.

 

I would keep Kumerow as he does on occasion play some offensive plays.  Bills were I believe 1st or 2nd in number of plays run with 3 and 4 WR.  With using that many WR, I'd keep 7 on the 53, but likely the last one is inactive on game days.  A this point, that would be Hodgins, but use him all week in practice on ST.  If/when he gets to the point, he's as good as Kumerow, then he's active and Kumerow sits.  Also looking beyond this year, with a year under his belt, could see by next year they keep Hodgins over Kumerow.

 

The one I have the most issue with is Jones as they rarely ever used him as a RB where as Kumerow does play on occasion.  I'd let Jones and Johnson go and keep Blackshear and again he works on ST.  Barring injury he too isn't active on Sundays.  Likely Johnson could slip to PS.

 

Keeping Jones to me is a double wammy in particular this year.  Look at last year, they'd have Jones and 2 RB active on game days.  If they do that again, then either Singletary, Moss, or Cook is sitting.  I think 1 game last season they had Singletary, Moss, and Yeldon active.  However would be surprised if they did that again though this season as all three offer a unique style of play. But if you now have all three active, plus Jones, that's 4. Now add 2 QB's, 8 OL, that likely only leaves you 8 total between TE, FB, and WR as that adds up to 22.   Throw another 22 on defense and 3 true ST adds up to 47.  Or you're shorting the defense.  A total of 8 between TE, FB, and WR seems way to low for a pass heavy team like the Bills.  Whether you put Blackshear on the 53 man roster or not, this issue still exists if they keep Jones.

 

I don't have as much issue with Matakevich as with Smith being out the first 6 weeks and White starting out on IR, they can still keep 6 LB's one of them being Spector and not really cutting someone who's looked good. 

[ColoradoBills]

15 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Looking at the Bills roster I'd classify their core aces as : T Jones, J Kumerow, T Matakevich, S Neal, & R Gilliam with Matakevich and Jones the front runners.  Next level after those 5 are players like T Dodson, J Johnson, D Hamlin for starters.

 

I do think some core specialists are needed for ST on the roster, don't take getting rid of most lightly.  But also think while Matakevich and Jones are the leaders, Kumerow, Neal, and Gilliam have graduated to the point they are ready to have the baton passed to them.  Keeping Matakevich and Jones just means you're delaying the inevitable another season, at some point they will be gone and some new inexperienced guys will take their place on ST.  But there are enough fairly experienced players left as I named above that their absence may not be missed too much.

 

Just want to get the list correct.  When it comes to guys who are "core" non-returner/kicker ST players.  Core is the punt/kickoff both ways guys.

These are the stats for the Bills 4-way core and some 2nd tier players last year.

Core:

Matakevich - 80%

Gilliam - 73%

Jones - 71%

Neal - 66%

Dodson - 64%

Johnson - 63%

Kumerow - 61% (1st season as a core player)

Smith - 60%

2nd Tier:

Klien - 42%

Epenesa - 33%

Hamlin - 29%

 

This year a lock to get a huge amount of ST work and is good at it is Bernard.

 

Guys who if they make the team could be part of the core (unproven as of now) are:

Gilles-Harris (proven ST'er who Smalley has talked up in pressers)

Spector

Blackshear

Hodgins

Not sure if there are anymore.  If someone has seen another I would like to know.

 

 

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

It takes just one play to completely change the outcome of the game.  You don’t want to lose games on a special teams mishap.

 

you could end that post 5 words earlier. 
 

Those plays hang in our mind because they are both shocking and rare. 

[hemma]

I think I’ll just need to accept the idea that they are all Civil Servants and will be there until they are hired by either NYS or the IRS, at which time, they’ll double-dip.

[Royale with Cheese]

8 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

you could end that post 5 words earlier. 
 

Those plays hang in our mind because they are both shocking and rare. 

Its not just blocked punts which are rare.  Its field position.  Given up an extra 10 or yards on a return multiple times a game can hurt.

 

An opponent average starting field position from the 25 instead of the 35 makes a difference.

[Big Turk]

33 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I agree. I think the focus on special teams is borderline ridiculous.

 

If it was important it would be manned by your best players, not third stringers and rookies.

 

Poyer plays special teams.

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Poyer plays special teams.

Yeah, about 30% of ST snaps....because he's too valuable to play more. In Cleveland where they didn't value him he was playing like 75% of ST plays. It's just not that important.

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yeah, about 30% of ST snaps....because he's too valuable to play more. In Cleveland where they didn't value him he was playing like 75% of ST plays. It's just not that important.

 

I think I'll value the opinions of coaches and GMs around the NFL over random dudes on the boards most of whom couldn't describe even basic concepts in the NFL.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Big Turk said:

 

I think I'll value the opinions of coaches and GMs around the NFL over random dudes on the boards most of whom couldn't describe even basic concepts in the NFL.

You do that. 

[mrags]

42 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

you could end that post 5 words earlier. 
 

Those plays hang in our mind because they are both shocking and rare. 

Not to mention that you could lose a game because 2 RBs or WRs or OL get hurt during the game and you have nobody of worth backing them up. All because you wanted Taiwon Freaking Jones dressed in game day because he’s a good gunner. All when you have a kicker and punter that can force a touchback well above the league average. 

[hemma]

7 minutes ago, mrags said:

Not to mention that you could lose a game because 2 RBs or WRs or OL get hurt during the game and you have nobody of worth backing them up. All because you wanted Taiwon Freaking Jones dressed in game day because he’s a good gunner. All when you have a kicker and punter that can force a touchback well above the league average. 

I remember preseason 2010 when Fred Jackson broke a bone in his hand and Marshawn hurt ????? In the same game.

Chan Gailey didn’t have much hair, but everyone wanted that scalp.

 

[Stokes84]

I thought the point of having punt god is that we don’t need special teamers to cover. He’ll just kick touchbacks.

[BillsFanForever19]

They've protected Taiwan Jones both games and Tyler Matakevitch and Siran Neal also sat yesterday. So there's 3 ST Core locks. Found it interesting that they didn't do the same for Kumerow and had Hodgins doing some Special Teams work. I've thought of Kumerow as a lock there after they gave him a new contract. But maybe not depending on how Hodgins has looked to them in Practice, yesterday, and on Friday at Special Teams.

Edited August 21, 2022 by BillsFanForever19

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Also, keep in mind… if Haak is cut and we go with Araiza, it’s likely going to either be a booming TB or a big return. You’ll need elite gunners like Jones and Neal when a 75 yard punt has a sub-4 second hang time. It’s a real concern while the rookie is developing.

14 minutes ago, Stokes84 said:

I thought the point of having punt god is that we don’t need special teamers to cover. He’ll just kick touchbacks.

Had the Colts just had the PR line up 15 yards back, that could’ve been a huge return…

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Its not just blocked punts which are rare.  Its field position.  Given up an extra 10 or yards on a return multiple times a game can hurt.

 

An opponent average starting field position from the 25 instead of the 35 makes a difference.

 

for sure. Just like missed blocks, missed tackles, wrong routes, dropped balls, etc… all can lose games too. 

[GunnerBill]

You obviously ideally want as many of your special teamers as possible to have a role on your roster beyond just special teams. Of the Bills' "core" STs I think only Taiwan Jones and Tyler Matakevich don't. 

 

Of the rest:

Siran Neal is your backup nickel and plays in certain "big nickel" packages;

Reggie Gilliam is your only fullback and can provide depth at tight end if needed;

Tyrel Dodson is their 3rd linebacker;

Johnson and Hamlin are your backup safeties. 

 

Those guys all deserve their spots on the roster without question when you combine what they offer on offense / defense and special teams. Personally I think Jones is still one of the better gunners in the NFL although, he wasn't quite as good last year as in the past and I do see the "he is 34 he is bound to slow down" argument, but I think after K, P, LS gunners are the most important special teams players. If I have a top 10 gunner who doesn't see the field on offense or defense then I am still holding on to him. Coverage teams matter. And a top gunner plays more snaps than your 5th running back or 6th wide receiver or 6th corner anyway. Sometimes more than all three of those players combined. Matakevich I am less sold has to be here. He is a wedge guy and while yea, he does it well, I am not sure you notice a drop off from a good wedge guy to a bad wedge guy the way you do a good gunner to a bad gunner. But I think the Bills will keep both. 

 

That just leaves Kumerow. I think if there was someone clearly offering more than Kumerow at receiver they would move on from him. I just don't think they believe Hodgins is that yet. I think they see him and Kumerow as pretty neck and neck and so ties go to the better STs player. I'd be perfectly okay moving on from Kumerow. I don't even think he is that good of a special teamer. I actually think Cam Lewis is a better gunner but the numbers at corner mean he is probably less likely to make the roster. The reason Kumerow is sticking is as much because they are thin at outside receiver as because he plays teams. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by GunnerBill

[mrags]

2 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

Haack

Your a Haack

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Its not just blocked punts which are rare.  Its field position.  Given up an extra 10 or yards on a return multiple times a game can hurt.

 

An opponent average starting field position from the 25 instead of the 35 makes a difference.

Whats the breakdown of how much a difference it makes when your defense is the number 1 defense in the league. Or when you have an offense that rarely gets pinned back inside their own 30 yard line? 
 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

43 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

for sure. Just like missed blocks, missed tackles, wrong routes, dropped balls, etc… all can lose games too. 

But the core ST guys aren’t really contributing on the offense/defensive field a significant amount as back ups.  Many not at all.

 

My theory is if you’re going to have a 3rd stringer who never really sees the field, look for those who have strong special team’s ability.

[Punching Bag]

40 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

That just leaves Kumerow. I think if there was someone clearly offering more than Kumerow at receiver they would move on from him. I just don't think they believe Hodgins is that yet. I think they see him and Kumerow as pretty neck and neck and so ties go to the better STs player. I'd be perfectly okay moving on from Kumerow. I don't even think he is that good of a special teamer. I actually think Cam Lewis is a better gunner but the numbers at corner mean he is probably less likely to make the roster. The reason Kumerow is sticking is as much because they are thin at outside receiver as because he plays teams. 

 

Kumerow has shown he is a good WR for blocking which is something Hodgins has not shown.

Robert Woods was also a very good WR blocker and this ability to block was discounted by many posters preferring high celing of Sammy "feet of glass" Watkins.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

They've protected Taiwan Jones both games and Tyler Matakevitch and Siran Neal also sat yesterday. So there's 3 ST Core locks. Found it interesting that they didn't do the same for Kumerow and had Hodgins doing some Special Teams work. I've thought of Kumerow as a lock there after they gave him a new contract. But maybe not depending on how Hodgins has looked to them in Practice, yesterday, and on Friday at Special Teams.

you also have Gilliam, JJ, Dodson…

 

we have a good number of carryover guys even if jones (or someone else) get left behind for a high upside prospect or package player or just better guy at the position. 
 

it’s a balancing act and I’m not saying give no consideration, but I’m also saying ST shouldn’t be primary on the list once you have kickers settled. 

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

you also have Gilliam, JJ, Dodson…

 

we have a good number of carryover guys even if jones (or someone else) get left behind for a high upside prospect or package player or just better guy at the position. 
 

it’s a balancing act and I’m not saying give no consideration, but I’m also saying ST shouldn’t be primary on the list once you have kickers settled. 

 

But Gilliam, JJ and Tyrel Dodson do not play the same position on teams as Taiwan Jones. They are going to keep Jones but even if they didn't the alternatives to him (in terms of guys who have played some gunner and could start opposite Siran Neal) are Kumerow, Cam Lewis and Nick McCloud. 

 

In terms of Matakevich, he generally plays wing on punt team and wedge on return teams both of which Gilliam has also done at various times and they have generally been our two wings on punt team. 

 

Matakevich did try some personal protector a couple of years ago too before JJ took that job and I think he is locked in there as long as he is here.

[BillsFanForever19]

29 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

you also have Gilliam, JJ, Dodson…

 

we have a good number of carryover guys even if jones (or someone else) get left behind for a high upside prospect or package player or just better guy at the position. 
 

it’s a balancing act and I’m not saying give no consideration, but I’m also saying ST shouldn’t be primary on the list once you have kickers settled. 

 

Anyone who thinks Taiwan Jones could be replaced after McDermott specifically protected him by sitting him all Pre-Season is kidding themselves. That never happens for a healthy player who is remotely on the bubble.