Can we talk about Tremaine Edmunds?

[Nelius]

Just now, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

Not only is it a pretty good assumption that it’s saffold and bates, but there’s pretty good depth behind them with Ford and Quesssenberry (sp?) potentially

 

Exactly. Thanks for the point assist.

 

34 year old Rodger Saffold has never played a down for the Bills, yet the unhinged anti-Edmunds crowd would rather give him a nod, simply because he's not Tremaine Edmunds.

 

We're at the point where we're favorably comparing Cody Ford to Edmunds. You can't even spell Quessenberry's name and yet he's acceptable?

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

1 minute ago, Nelius said:

 

Exactly. Thanks for the point assist.

 

34 year old Rodger Saffold has never played a down for the Bills, yet the unhinged anti-Edmunds crowd would rather give him a nod, simply because he's not Tremaine Edmunds.

 

We're at the point where we're favorably comparing Cody Ford to Edmunds. You can't even spell Quessenberry's name and yet he's acceptable?

there you go with age again. Saffold and Bates are much better guards than Edmunds is a lb. I know some people don’t agree, which is fine. 
 

I also think Ilb is a harder position to play especially in McDermott’s system, but my point stands. 
 

there is much more potential to improve by replacing edmunds than replacing either of those guards.
 

RT is the only other position close to as weak. Brown had a terrible game against the Chiefs, and if you couldn’t tell I’m not giving credit for youth in this equation. 

[Brand J]

It’s Edmunds year to put up or shut up. I’ve heard more excuses for this player than any other in recent memory. Everything from his age to his responsibilities in the defense limiting his overall effectiveness.
He is not a “bad” or “terrible” linebacker, but he’s not a “great” or “elite” one either. In my opinion, he has to flash on the screen more than Matt Milano to be paid more than Matt Milano and so far in his career that hasn’t happened. His instincts and his processing speed are his limitations and I’m not sure those will ever take a giant leap, but let’s see what he does with a much better DL in front of him…

Edited July 1, 2022 by JayBaller10

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

My bad, I should’ve read more carefully but I tend to skim the self dubbed “villain” posts because I’ve already know what is going to be written as I’ve already read it ad nauseam.  
 

outside WR depth sucks.  You are correct.  You were correct the first 150 times you’ve posted it too.  
 

regarding the OL conversation……you only mention the starters.  No mention of the depth additions.   You mention pff grades…. How about the pff grades of our new BACKUP IOL (quessenberry and Van Roten) in relation to daryl Williams?  
 

Care to discuss Saffold, van roten + quessenberry vs Daryl Williams, Doyle and Ford?  You mention the WR depth, how about the depth of the OL…..you know, the unit that cost us 3 games is season because we didn’t have proper depth?  
 

which nfl contenders do have great depth along the OL in the nfl today?  Any?

 

 

1.  Don't get me started about people posting an opinion repeatedly........my most lasting impression of last year this time was your constant complaining about the Bills  desperate need for CB depth...........which was proven an unfounded worry EVEN WHEN they lost Tre White.    They were a BETTER team with higher regard from Vegas in the 6 weeks after his injury.

 

The difference between that situation and my complaint about the outside WR depth was that we knew Dane Jackson could play ball in limited reps in 2020......he made plays against DeAndre Hopkins in Arizona....and that they had proven that they could plug in guys like Cam Lewis and not miss a beat in their system.

 

We also KNOW what Jake Kumerow is at age 30 and that you can't "cover up" receivers on offense.........they either win matchups or they are a liability. 

 

You have zero right to complain about a point being re-iterated........especially when most of the mentions I've made are responses to opinions that the Bills have no weaknesses......because yes there are people who think that.

 

2. As I said........Quessenberry was a horrible pass protector.   He had a TREMENDOUS season as a run blocker.   Hence his 80 pff grade........and the fact that he had no market despite strong run blocking tells you how bad his pass pro is seen.    He's a Jordan Mills but with even wider splits between run and pass pro.    Solid backup........but the guy he is backing up,  Spencer Brown, played quite badly.   There is no longer a Daryl Williams option to bounce over and maybe even get pro bowl level pass blocking out of that players.......like they did in 2020.     

 

I've explained my issue with Saffold........his Daryl Williams like PFF grade is only one aspect of the comparison..........he was much less available due to a chronic shoulder injury and he's much older.     If the LG position turns into a platoon between Saffold and Cody Ford or Van Roten.........that could be a significant step back over what they had with Williams.    Swapping Saffold out for Williams was about money and familiarity with the new OL coach.    Maybe Saffold bounces back and can stay on the field and has one last good season in him.   Williams is no less likely to do so.........and he might do that at RT somewhere.   He's much younger.   It's only an upgrade on paper if you totally ignore the facts.

 

3. I'm not sure why you keep asking a question I'm not debating.  You were wrong for calling me out for it in the first place and still you continue.   The Bills depth is now solid compared to the rest of the league.   The problem is, it is depth behind a starting OL that lead the NFL in sacks and pressures combined last season.   And that depth is all low ceiling veteran players whose weaknesses mirror the weaknesses of the guys in front of them.   Tommy Doyle is the only guy with any ceiling left in the unit.   And nobody b*tched more about Tommy Doyle being on the roster last season than you so you should probably leave it at that. 

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Out of curiosity, where are you getting this stat?

 

Where else.......a post of a tweet about the stat by @YoloinOhio here on TSW. 

 

I believe it came up when Bills fans were stat shaming the Bengals OL in the playoffs.

 

 

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Where else.......a post of a tweet about the stat by @YoloinOhio here on TSW. 

 

I believe it came up when Bills fans were stat shaming the Bengals OL in the playoffs.

 

 

 

Lol, was much more than just Bills fans. There wasn't many at all that had confidence in their OL.....but I get what you're saying though. 

 

Will be interesting to see how the upgrades they made end up playing out.

[BADOLBILZ]

13 hours ago, eball said:

It’s so funny. All you need to know about Bills fans on this forum is to read this thread in which two fans have spent countless time and effort trying to convince us all that the team picked to win the Super Bowl is a paper tiger in danger of imploding before our eyes.

 

We’re doomed!

 

 

 

 

Last season at this time people were predicting 14 and 15 win seasons for the Bills........the perception was that their schedule was just so easy and they were great and highly motivated to get home field advantage.   Maybe they lose at KC.......maybe they lose at Tampa...........but otherwise people were quite sure it was going to be a cake walk.   Didn't you predict such a thing yourself?   Seems to me you did.

 

Then after 13 games the Bills were 7-6.

 

NOBODY is predicting that they are going to "implode" and be a terrible team............but people like you never learn that the games actually have to be played.........the team was TERRIBLE in one score games..........they dominated bad teams and played good defense almost all season but unforeseen issues on offense derailed their home field bid.

 

7-6 and being on the outside of the playoff field looking in during the month of December HAPPENED last season.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Last season at this time people were predicting 14 and 15 win seasons for the Bills........the perception was that their schedule was just so easy and they were great and highly motivated to get home field advantage.   Maybe they lose at KC.......maybe they lose at Tampa...........but otherwise people were quite sure it was going to be a cake walk.   Didn't you predict such a thing yourself?   Seems to me you did.

 

Then after 13 games the Bills were 7-6.

 

NOBODY is predicting that they are going to "implode" and be a terrible team............but people like you never learn that the games actually have to be played.........the team was TERRIBLE in one score games..........they dominated bad teams and played good defense almost all season but unforeseen issues on offense derailed their home field bid.

 

7-6 and being on the outside of the playoff field looking in during the month of December HAPPENED last season.

It actually was a cakewalk. They had a couple let downs mostly due to weather because they weren’t a very good bad weather team. Then there’s the Jags game which was mostly an OL failure.

 

The Bills dominated their wins like very few teams in NFL history. 

[NewEra]

51 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1.  Don't get me started about people posting an opinion repeatedly........my most lasting impression of last year this time was your constant complaining about the Bills  desperate need for CB depth...........which was proven an unfounded worry EVEN WHEN they lost Tre White.    They were a BETTER team with higher regard from Vegas in the 6 weeks after his injury.

 

The difference between that situation and my complaint about the outside WR depth was that we knew Dane Jackson could play ball in limited reps in 2020......he made plays against DeAndre Hopkins in Arizona....and that they had proven that they could plug in guys like Cam Lewis and not miss a beat in their system.

 

We also KNOW what Jake Kumerow is at age 30 and that you can't "cover up" receivers on offense.........they either win matchups or they are a liability. 

 

You have zero right to complain about a point being re-iterated........especially when most of the mentions I've made are responses to opinions that the Bills have no weaknesses......because yes there are people who think that.

 

2. As I said........Quessenberry was a horrible pass protector.   He had a TREMENDOUS season as a run blocker.   Hence his 80 pff grade........and the fact that he had no market despite strong run blocking tells you how bad his pass pro is seen.    He's a Jordan Mills but with even wider splits between run and pass pro.    Solid backup........but the guy he is backing up,  Spencer Brown, played quite badly.   There is no longer a Daryl Williams option to bounce over and maybe even get pro bowl level pass blocking out of that players.......like they did in 2020.     

 

I've explained my issue with Saffold........his Daryl Williams like PFF grade is only one aspect of the comparison..........he was much less available due to a chronic shoulder injury and he's much older.     If the LG position turns into a platoon between Saffold and Cody Ford or Van Roten.........that could be a significant step back over what they had with Williams.    Swapping Saffold out for Williams was about money and familiarity with the new OL coach.    Maybe Saffold bounces back and can stay on the field and has one last good season in him.   Williams is no less likely to do so.........and he might do that at RT somewhere.   He's much younger.   It's only an upgrade on paper if you totally ignore the facts.

 

3. I'm not sure why you keep asking a question I'm not debating.  You were wrong for calling me out for it in the first place and still you continue.   The Bills depth is now solid compared to the rest of the league.   The problem is, it is depth behind a starting OL that lead the NFL in sacks and pressures combined last season.   And that depth is all low ceiling veteran players whose weaknesses mirror the weaknesses of the guys in front of them.   Tommy Doyle is the only guy with any ceiling left in the unit.   And nobody b*tched more about Tommy Doyle being on the roster last season than you so you should probably leave it at that. 

I stopped after the bolded. 
 

did you happen to watch the playoff game vs the chiefs?  Did you happen to see how Levi and Dane performed in that game? Our season ended because our HC/Dc had zero confidence in them staying in front of hill and Hardman and not getting beat for a TD…..after being beat for several huge plays throughout the game.  
 

if you don’t think our lack of CB depth/starter ability contributed to our season ending defeat, think more.  
 

meanwhile,  Levi signs for my penny’s and we spend our 1st rd pick on a corner that can run.  Interesting

 

i also harped all off season how our OL depth was terrible.  It cost us home field, like you said.  
 

edit:  I also criticized our lack of TE depth to no end. Meanwhile, our project swing tackle was our TE2 when games mattered most.  
 

my takes were awful……

Edited July 1, 2022 by NewEra

[In Summary]

23 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I don't think this regime will ever burn another 1st round pick on a LB unless someone transformative falls in their lap. I can see Tremaine having a decent contract year but I wouldn't hold my breath for too many wow splash plays. Maybe Sean thought he could turn him into Keuckly which was never going to happen. I would let him walk and put all that money toward Poyer, Oliver and Knox. Bernard & Dodson can hold down the fort.

Looking forward to seeing Terrel Bernard play and whether he has instincts and big play ability in the NFL.

[Shaw66]

15 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I stopped after the bolded. 
 

did you happen to watch the playoff game vs the chiefs?  Did you happen to see how did Levi and Dane performed in that game? Our season ended because our HC/Dc had zero confidence in them staying in front of hill and Hardman and not getting beat for a TD…..after being beat for several huge plays throughout the game.  
 

if you don’t think our lack of CB depth/starter ability contributed to our season ending defeat, think more.  
 

meanwhile,  Levi signs for my penny’s and we spend our 1st rd pick on a corner that can run.  Interesting

 

i also harped all off season how our OL depth was terrible.  It cost us home field, like you said.  

This brings into focus a subject that keeps coming up on this forum, which is the irony that the Bills defense was statistically great, but not big-play great.  The Bills DID survive very well without White, amazingly so.   Yes, as someone has pointed out, their late-season opponents weren't great, and Brady did torch the backfield some, but overall they were quite good.   But you're right, the game, the last 13 seconds, and the overtime probably would have been very different with White on the field.  

 

You lose me, however, when you harp on depth.  No team's depth is good.  My cousin used to tell me that it's not just injuries that hurt you.  It's when the injuries occur in the season and the positions where they happen.   His point was that it's always a problem when you have to go to your bench; sometimes you've got the right guy for the position, sometimes you don't. Sometimes the injury happens at an okay time, sometimes it doesn't.   That's just the way it is.  Especially the oline, because NO team has good talent across their oline, which means that whatever good depth you have is likely to leave to start someplace else.   Bates is the current example of that.   He obviously wasn't the Bills' first choice to start; if he had been, he wouldn't have been in play in the first place.   It's just the reality of offensive lines in the NFL in this era.   Some solid receivers go unsigned much longer than we'd expect these days, because there are receivers all over the place - free agency and the draft.  Linemen, pretty much not at all.   OL depth is an illusion.   Corner back depth is an illusion.  Quarterback depth is an illusion.   Bills fans, like fans of a lot of teams, are arguing about who's going to be the 6th or 7th receiver and who will get cut.  No one argues about what O lineman will cut, because most fans look at the talent on the bench and just pray that NONE of them will be called on to play.  

[Patrick Duffy]

53 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This brings into focus a subject that keeps coming up on this forum, which is the irony that the Bills defense was statistically great, but not big-play great.  The Bills DID survive very well without White, amazingly so.   Yes, as someone has pointed out, their late-season opponents weren't great, and Brady did torch the backfield some, but overall they were quite good.   But you're right, the game, the last 13 seconds, and the overtime probably would have been very different with White on the field.

Pretty much agree with you here, however as for the sentence in bold, a lot of ppl have said this and it's something I have wondered and asked myself ever since that game....

In that scenario at that particular time and situation in that game, I don't know if it would have been very different or how much different it would have been if Tre was there? Again just talking about that particular 13 secs situation.

 

Reason I say this is because would the play call be different or same the defensive play that was called and all the room given? If defending the way they did even with Tre, I'm not sure how much difference it could have made.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

This brings into focus a subject that keeps coming up on this forum, which is the irony that the Bills defense was statistically great, but not big-play great.  The Bills DID survive very well without White, amazingly so.   Yes, as someone has pointed out, their late-season opponents weren't great, and Brady did torch the backfield some, but overall they were quite good.   But you're right, the game, the last 13 seconds, and the overtime probably would have been very different with White on the field.  

 

You lose me, however, when you harp on depth.  No team's depth is good.  My cousin used to tell me that it's not just injuries that hurt you.  It's when the injuries occur in the season and the positions where they happen.   His point was that it's always a problem when you have to go to your bench; sometimes you've got the right guy for the position, sometimes you don't. Sometimes the injury happens at an okay time, sometimes it doesn't.   That's just the way it is.  Especially the oline, because NO team has good talent across their oline, which means that whatever good depth you have is likely to leave to start someplace else.   Bates is the current example of that.   He obviously wasn't the Bills' first choice to start; if he had been, he wouldn't have been in play in the first place.   It's just the reality of offensive lines in the NFL in this era.   Some solid receivers go unsigned much longer than we'd expect these days, because there are receivers all over the place - free agency and the draft.  Linemen, pretty much not at all.   OL depth is an illusion.   Corner back depth is an illusion.  Quarterback depth is an illusion.   Bills fans, like fans of a lot of teams, are arguing about who's going to be the 6th or 7th receiver and who will get cut.  No one argues about what O lineman will cut, because most fans look at the talent on the bench and just pray that NONE of them will be called on to play.  

Are you saying that depth isn’t a concern for any team….because no team has any depth…… I don’t follow.  

 

When you’re a championship caliber team….  There aren’t many holes.  The offseason talking points regarding loaded teams, usually surround depth.  Some teams have better depth than others at certain positions. 
 

I think we improved our OL depth this offseason when compared to last season.  
 

We definitely improved our TE depth this year compared to last year.

 

My problems with the CB unit last year wasn’t just focused on depth.  My main focus was replacing Levi wallace due to his lack of speed and inability to cover Tyreek hill.  I harped on it, probably annoyingly so. Sure, no one can cover Hill very well, but our season ended back to back seasons watching Hill feast on our corners. All of them.   Pass rush also impacts CB coverage, I’m not putting it all on Levi, but he wasn’t resigned for a reason.  He was signed away for 4M per year….that’s backup money.  We decided to just run it back with the same group and fell short of our goal partly because we didn’t address corner.  Jmo.
 

This offseason, I agree with the group saying that we need another competent outside WR.  Behind Diggs and Davis, Shakir is our best option and I’m not sure if he’s capable of filling in at a high level just yet.  
 

I was hoping that we would add a higher upside OL to help protect Josh.  Saffold is ok and comes with risk, but I’m ok with it as a band aid.  Brown was kinda bad and has to show improvement. Bates likely will be switching positions, so that is not without worry.  I was surprised we didn’t draft any OL in the first 5 rounds but I really like the depth additions of quessenberry and van roten.  Will they play well when/if their name is called?  Idk, but I think they are better backup options than some other contenders have.  
 

 

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Are you saying that depth isn’t a concern for any team….because no team has any depth…… I don’t follow.  

 

When you’re a championship caliber team….  There aren’t many holes.  The offseason talking points regarding loaded teams, usually surround depth.  Some teams have better depth than others at certain positions. 
 

I think we improved our OL depth this offseason when compared to last season.  
 

We definitely improved our TE depth this year compared to last year.

 

My problems with the CB unit last year wasn’t just focused on depth.  My main focus was replacing Levi wallace due to his lack of speed and inability to cover Tyreek hill.  I harped on it, probably annoyingly so. Sure, no one can cover Hill very well, but our season ended back to back seasons watching Hill feast on our corners. All of them.   Pass rush also impacts CB coverage, I’m not putting it all on Levi, but he wasn’t resigned for a reason.  He was signed away for 4M per year….that’s backup money.  We decided to just run it back with the same group and fell short of our goal partly because we didn’t address corner.  Jmo.
 

This offseason, I agree with the group saying that we need another competent outside WR.  Behind Diggs and Davis, Shakir is our best option and I’m not sure if he’s capable of filling in at a high level just yet.  
 

I was hoping that we would add a higher upside OL to help protect Josh.  Saffold is ok and comes with risk, but I’m ok with it as a band aid.  Brown was kinda bad and has to show improvement. Bates likely will be switching positions, so that is not without worry.  I was surprised we didn’t draft any OL in the first 5 rounds but I really like the depth additions of quessenberry and van roten.  Will they play well when/if their name is called?  Idk, but I think they are better backup options than some other contenders have.  
 

 

I'm not saying depth isn't a concern.  I'm saying at some positions, it's unreasonable to complain that you don't like the depth.   

 

Take Levi Wallace.  In an ideal world, he'd he my number 3 corner.   I'd start White and Elam and have Levi to back them up.   However, in the real world, Levi Wallace is someone's #2 corner - the Bills', and now the Steelers, or wherever he went.  Why is a guy who is a good #3 starting?   Because there aren't enough starter-caliber corners.   

 

On the other hand, pretty much everybody has someone decent as a backup wideout or running back.   Not great, but not a problem.  

 

Oline is like corner.   There just aren't enough good olinemen, by NFL standards.   Over and over we hear that guys coming out of college have very limited offensive line skills.   These guys are going to lineman camps in the off-season, not to refine their skills but to learn basic skills.   So, you get a talent and you try to hold on to him for three or four years and hope he learns how to play.   Every team has a similar experience.  Nobody has a dominant offensive line for more than a year or two.  Any team that has an offensive line, five guys, who are really good, loses players to injury, free agency, retirement, and they're looking for replacements.   In that environment, some inexperienced or under-talented guys wind up starting, guys like Bates and Brown.   

 

What I'm saying is that it makes little sense to me to say the lack of oline depth is disappointing.   In a candid moment, Beane would tell you he's disappointed, too, but it's not for lack of trying.  He'll also tell you that because of that, it's harder to draft solutions.   Very, very few guys are ready, so you have to hope you can develop them.   You make mistakes, like, apparently, Ford.   Your mistakes are more obvious, like Teller. 

 

Compare the oline to the revolving door the Bills have been running at receiver.   At receiver, you can sign or draft guys, just keep moving and changing the pieces, but most of the guys you get work out at least okay.   There's a relative excess of receiver talent in the league, and a relative dearth of oline and corner talent.  

 

What I mean is that Beane is doing as well as he can to build oline depth, but there's not a lot he can do about it.  I'm sure when he's sitting with his pals in the business, they all say the same thing.   

 

So, my attitude about the oline is the same as every year, only the names keep changing.   I hope Brown improves.   I hope Saffold has gas in the tank.   I hope the scheme takes advantage of Morse's strengths and masks his weaknesses.   I hope Bates proves he's a starter.  I hope Dion starts to put solid games for the entire season.   I hope the bench can contribute when called on.  I hope Kromer helps.  I hope Dorsey schemes properly.   

 

I know what Josh can do, and Stephon, and Singletary, and Knox.   I never, never know what to expect from the oline, let alone the so-called depth.

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Where else.......a post of a tweet about the stat by @YoloinOhio here on TSW. 

 

I believe it came up when Bills fans were stat shaming the Bengals OL in the playoffs.

 

 

I'm looking at PFF and they have the Dolphins o-line as giving up the most pressures with 235.  If yolo used PFF rankings that's much lower than 125.  PFF had us ranked in the middle of the pack overall (17th) but I couldn't find the exact number of pressures/sacks allowed.  It's pry safe to say it's nowhere near dead last though like you claim.  The Bills had problems on the o-line last year in pass protection but I think you're overstating how bad they actually were.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Doc Brown

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm not saying depth isn't a concern.  I'm saying at some positions, it's unreasonable to complain that you don't like the depth.   

 

Take Levi Wallace.  In an ideal world, he'd he my number 3 corner.   I'd start White and Elam and have Levi to back them up.   However, in the real world, Levi Wallace is someone's #2 corner - the Bills', and now the Steelers, or wherever he went.  Why is a guy who is a good #3 starting?   Because there aren't enough starter-caliber corners.   

 

On the other hand, pretty much everybody has someone decent as a backup wideout or running back.   Not great, but not a problem.  

 

Oline is like corner.   There just aren't enough good olinemen, by NFL standards.   Over and over we hear that guys coming out of college have very limited offensive line skills.   These guys are going to lineman camps in the off-season, not to refine their skills but to learn basic skills.   So, you get a talent and you try to hold on to him for three or four years and hope he learns how to play.   Every team has a similar experience.  Nobody has a dominant offensive line for more than a year or two.  Any team that has an offensive line, five guys, who are really good, loses players to injury, free agency, retirement, and they're looking for replacements.   In that environment, some inexperienced or under-talented guys wind up starting, guys like Bates and Brown.   

 

What I'm saying is that it makes little sense to me to say the lack of oline depth is disappointing.   In a candid moment, Beane would tell you he's disappointed, too, but it's not for lack of trying.  He'll also tell you that because of that, it's harder to draft solutions.   Very, very few guys are ready, so you have to hope you can develop them.   You make mistakes, like, apparently, Ford.   Your mistakes are more obvious, like Teller. 

 

Compare the oline to the revolving door the Bills have been running at receiver.   At receiver, you can sign or draft guys, just keep moving and changing the pieces, but most of the guys you get work out at least okay.   There's a relative excess of receiver talent in the league, and a relative dearth of oline and corner talent.  

 

What I mean is that Beane is doing as well as he can to build oline depth, but there's not a lot he can do about it.  I'm sure when he's sitting with his pals in the business, they all say the same thing.   

 

So, my attitude about the oline is the same as every year, only the names keep changing.   I hope Brown improves.   I hope Saffold has gas in the tank.   I hope the scheme takes advantage of Morse's strengths and masks his weaknesses.   I hope Bates proves he's a starter.  I hope Dion starts to put solid games for the entire season.   I hope the bench can contribute when called on.  I hope Kromer helps.  I hope Dorsey schemes properly.   

 

I know what Josh can do, and Stephon, and Singletary, and Knox.   I never, never know what to expect from the oline, let alone the so-called depth.

As I stated….cb depth wasn’t my main concern.  Levi wallace as our cb2 was my biggest gripe.   That’s what I was harping on last year.   Adding a better cb2 would’ve improved our depth as Levi would have been cb3 and Tre’s replacement.  Many people viewed CB as a need last offseason.  Nick Mccloud was our best addition (who I think might stick, but was of no help last season).  I was hoping for more.  Not sure why anyone would disagree with that statement after the conclusion of season.

 

While there might not be a plethora of good DBs, I was upset at the level of investment we put into the boundary corner position considering the teams we’ll be playing in the playoffs.  The season played out and the used their 1st rd pick on a corner and let Levi go for 4m aav. Shocking.

 

regarding the OL depth…..we just signed 2 OL that started the majority of last season to be backups.  Our OL coach is one of the best. I think it’s reasonable to suggest that our OL depth (as well as starters) is improved this offseason when compared to last years.  
 

but only time will tell. 

 

 

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

As I stated….cb depth wasn’t my main concern.  Levi wallace as our cb2 was my biggest gripe.   That’s what I was harping on last year.   Adding a better cb2 would’ve improved our depth as Levi would have been cb3 and Tre’s replacement.  Many people viewed CB as a need last offseason.  Nick Mccloud was our best addition (who I think might stick, but was of no help last season).  I was hoping for more.  Not sure why anyone would disagree with that statement after the conclusion of season.

 

While there might not be a plethora of good DBs, I was upset at the level of investment we put into the boundary corner position considering the teams we’ll be playing in the playoffs.  The season played out and the used their 1st rd pick on a corner and let Levi go for 4m aav. Shocking.

 

regarding the OL depth…..we just signed 2 OL that started the majority of last season to be backups.  Our OL coach is one of the best. I think it’s reasonable to suggest that our OL depth (as well as starters) is improved this offseason when compared to last years.  
 

but only time will tell. 

 

 

I think you demonstrate my point.   Of course, getting a better corner and making Levi #3 would have been a great solution.  That's what half the teams in the league, or more, are saying.  That's why the Bills signed Josh Norman and that guy who quit in the first game.  Every year they looked for better number 2.   With Tre still early in his rookie deal, it didn't make sense to use a first round pick to get another corner, because that would mean that Tre or the other guy would be a one-contract rental, because you can't afford to pay the second contract on two first-round corners.   Waiting until now made sense.   Taking guys in the fifth or later may work, but they are all shots in the dark.   You can keep talking about it, but the simple truth is that there aren't enough starter-quality corners to give every team two good corners.   In the same way that there aren't enough starter quality offensive linemen.  

 

So, you end up saying the Bills signed enough former starting olinemen that they might have good depth this year, but face it:  every year the Bills sign some of those guys.  Sometimes they turn out to be Daryl Williams, but usually they don't.   They are FORMER starting offensive linemen for a reason.  It's evidence of what I said: there just isn't enough offensive line talent to go around, starting or backup.  There just isn't.  So every season, Beane brings in a collection of guys, vets and rookies and former PS guys, and every year all you can do is hope you don't need them and hope that when you do need them, they don't hurt you too badly.  It's just the way it is, and that's why I never get too excited about depth.  Beane works as hard as he can to have great depth, and McDermott and the coaches work as hard as they can to have guys ready if they're needed, but whether they'll have the right guys in the right positions at the right time is anybody's guess.   It's not a problem that Beane can solve. 

[Patrick Duffy]

51 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Are you saying that depth isn’t a concern for any team….because no team has any depth…… I don’t follow.  

 

When you’re a championship caliber team….  There aren’t many holes.  The offseason talking points regarding loaded teams, usually surround depth.  Some teams have better depth than others at certain positions. 
 

I think we improved our OL depth this offseason when compared to last season.  
 

We definitely improved our TE depth this year compared to last year.

 

My problems with the CB unit last year wasn’t just focused on depth.  My main focus was replacing Levi wallace due to his lack of speed and inability to cover Tyreek hill.  I harped on it, probably annoyingly so. Sure, no one can cover Hill very well, but our season ended back to back seasons watching Hill feast on our corners. All of them.   Pass rush also impacts CB coverage, I’m not putting it all on Levi, but he wasn’t resigned for a reason.  He was signed away for 4M per year….that’s backup money.  We decided to just run it back with the same group and fell short of our goal partly because we didn’t address corner.  Jmo.
 

This offseason, I agree with the group saying that we need another competent outside WR.  Behind Diggs and Davis, Shakir is our best option and I’m not sure if he’s capable of filling in at a high level just yet.  
 

I was hoping that we would add a higher upside OL to help protect Josh.  Saffold is ok and comes with risk, but I’m ok with it as a band aid.  Brown was kinda bad and has to show improvement. Bates likely will be switching positions, so that is not without worry.  I was surprised we didn’t draft any OL in the first 5 rounds but I really like the depth additions of quessenberry and van roten.  Will they play well when/if their name is called?  Idk, but I think they are better backup options than some other contenders have.  
 

 

 

 

Agree with you, especially about Wallace. As for the OL, that's an area I will be watching closely. I feel like it was improved to a certain extent, but may not be enough. Was hoping for a bit more in that area, but we will see what happens.

 

As for TE improvement, I'm not sure there either. We know  Sweeney doesn't really give much confidence, also not expecting a while lot from Howard. So unless Howard or someone else surprises then I'm not sure there's much improvement there either.

 

But looking forward to the battles

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It actually was a cakewalk. They had a couple let downs mostly due to weather because they weren’t a very good bad weather team. Then there’s the Jags game which was mostly an OL failure.

 

The Bills dominated their wins like very few teams in NFL history. 

It definelty wasn't a cake walk. After 13 games, the Bills were in a serious battle to make the playoffs. They played well down the stretch and controlled their own dynasty. It wasn't a cake walk though. 

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think you demonstrate my point.   Of course, getting a better corner and making Levi #3 would have been a great solution.  That's what half the teams in the league, or more, are saying.  That's why the Bills signed Josh Norman and that guy who quit in the first game.  Every year they looked for better number 2.   With Tre still early in his rookie deal, it didn't make sense to use a first round pick to get another corner, because that would mean that Tre or the other guy would be a one-contract rental, because you can't afford to pay the second contract on two first-round corners.   Waiting until now made sense.   Taking guys in the fifth or later may work, but they are all shots in the dark.   You can keep talking about it, but the simple truth is that there aren't enough starter-quality corners to give every team two good corners.   In the same way that there aren't enough starter quality offensive linemen.  

 

So, you end up saying the Bills signed enough former starting olinemen that they might have good depth this year, but face it:  every year the Bills sign some of those guys.  Sometimes they turn out to be Daryl Williams, but usually they don't.   They are FORMER starting offensive linemen for a reason.  It's evidence of what I said: there just isn't enough offensive line talent to go around, starting or backup.  There just isn't.  So every season, Beane brings in a collection of guys, vets and rookies and former PS guys, and every year all you can do is hope you don't need them and hope that when you do need them, they don't hurt you too badly.  It's just the way it is, and that's why I never get too excited about depth.  Beane works as hard as he can to have great depth, and McDermott and the coaches work as hard as they can to have guys ready if they're needed, but whether they'll have the right guys in the right positions at the right time is anybody's guess.   It's not a problem that Beane can solve. 

Lots of teams have 2 good corners.  The team that won the Super Bowl did in fact, have two good corners. No, not every team can have two….but some do.  
 

They decided they didn’t need to address the CB unit last year and brought back the same group.  Our CBs got wrecked in a season ending loss….again.  We failed to achieve our goal.  
 

I’m only discussing this because someone else brought it up.  It’s in the past and I’ve moved on.  
 

My main concerns heading into this season, as currently constructed:  outside WR behind Diggs and Davis;  OL play (bates switching sides, browns’ progression, saffolds health, do the depth players perform adequately when called upon).  That’s really it.  CB depth, as you said is always a concern, but after a season of learning, I think Nick McCloud could emerge as competition for Dane Jackson.  
 

Making sure Von, Tre, Poyer and Hyde are healthy come playoffs. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

44 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

It definelty wasn't a cake walk. After 13 games, the Bills were in a serious battle to make the playoffs. They played well down the stretch and controlled their own dynasty. It wasn't a cake walk though. 

Because they blew a couple of their easiest matchups and were bad in 1 score games.

[Shaw66]

39 minutes ago, NewEra said:

 

My main concerns heading into this season

Your saying this makes me realize I don't have concerns.  

 

When the Bills were a .500 team, I had concerns.  Would the QB improve, would someone step up at one position or another. 

 

I don't have concerns now.   That's not to say there aren't areas of relative strength or weakness, players who need to make the next step, etc.  

 

I don't have concerns now because the team is good enough to win the Super Bowl, and I don't have the ability to predict where things will go wrong that will cause them not to win it.   Those kind of concerns could happen at any position.  

 

I've stopped worrying about that stuff, not by choice or anything.  I just find I don't worry about it.   I'm just waiting for the games to begin.   When the season's over, I'll know what I could have worried about, but for now I'm worry-free.   It's a nice feeling. 

[newcam2012]

15 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Your saying this makes me realize I don't have concerns.  

 

When the Bills were a .500 team, I had concerns.  Would the QB improve, would someone step up at one position or another. 

 

I don't have concerns now.   That's not to say there aren't areas of relative strength or weakness, players who need to make the next step, etc.  

 

I don't have concerns now because the team is good enough to win the Super Bowl, and I don't have the ability to predict where things will go wrong that will cause them not to win it.   Those kind of concerns could happen at any position.  

 

I've stopped worrying about that stuff, not by choice or anything.  I just find I don't worry about it.   I'm just waiting for the games to begin.   When the season's over, I'll know what I could have worried about, but for now I'm worry-free.   It's a nice feeling. 

I get where you are going. Worry free is a great feeling. However, I think worry should be replaced with concerned or interested. Thus, I'm interested on how the Bills can get even better. I'm interested in improvements and upgrades that were and can be made. I'm concerned that the Bill's didn't improve xxx enough? This is what most fans do. Talk about off season moves, needs, etc...To ignore this based on being worried seems off base to me. 

[LeGOATski]

Locked On Bills latest episode all about Tremaine Edmunds is a good listen.

[RocCityRoller]

21 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Locked On Bills latest episode all about Tremaine Edmunds is a good listen.

 

Thanks. I thought this thread was about Tre Edmunds.... anything but the last few pages.

[BADOLBILZ]

21 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I'm looking at PFF and they have the Dolphins o-line as giving up the most pressures with 235.  If yolo used PFF rankings that's much lower than 125.  PFF had us ranked in the middle of the pack overall (17th) but I couldn't find the exact number of pressures/sacks allowed.  It's pry safe to say it's nowhere near dead last though like you claim.  The Bills had problems on the o-line last year in pass protection but I think you're overstating how bad they actually were.

 

 

And I "think" I am not overstating how bad they were.    They were a GLARING weakness on an otherwise dominant team.

 

Here is the NFL's own next Gen stats link with their take on pressure stats..........Bills with second most pressures allowed and the most hurries allowed in the NFL(by a lot).

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm

 

Do some non-NFL owned metric services have them ranked better?........ perhaps.........but my point has been that statistically they ranked VERY badly in pass pro.

 

On reflection though, I think that stat I quoted from one of yolo's re-tweets was from around the time of the Tampa game.   

 

Which makes sense,  because they were indisputably terrible until they started running Josh Allen 10x per game to compensate for the struggles in pass pro.   Though as I mentioned, when they did NOT rush 10+ time in the Panthers game he got assaulted in the pocket.  

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[BADOLBILZ]

22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

It actually was a cakewalk. They had a couple let downs mostly due to weather because they weren’t a very good bad weather team. Then there’s the Jags game which was mostly an OL failure.

 

The Bills dominated their wins like very few teams in NFL history. 

 

 

They lost 6 games.

 

That's not the definition of a cakewalk.......it's a sign of inconsistency.

 

But yes, they had a huge point differential because they had a very easy schedule.    

 

They just played very poorly on one or both sides of the ball in 6 games..........most often on offense.......though the Tennessee, Indy and Tampa losses were more directly on the league's top ranked defense.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I get where you are going. Worry free is a great feeling. However, I think worry should be replaced with concerned or interested. Thus, I'm interested on how the Bills can get even better. I'm interested in improvements and upgrades that were and can be made. I'm concerned that I the Bill's didn't improve xxx enough? This is what most fans do. Talk about off season moves, needs, etc...To ignore this based on being worried seems off base to me. 

I hear what you're saying, but I think you missed my point.   My point was one of personality.   What you're saying is that you and I are different, which is what I was saying in my post.  I agree that the objective is continuous improvement, and I'm glad the Bills have a GM and a coach with the fierce competitiveness and drive to keep pursuing it.   I'm not like that; although I agree the team always can get better, my brain has little interest in figuring how to get better at backup guard.  If there's a serious hole at some starting position, fine, I'll think about it.  Backup guard, no. 

 

I don't know a lot about cars, so some people may argue with the comparison, but it's sort of like this:   If I'm driving a Kia, I want to figure out how to upgrade.   So, I get a Honda, and it's clearly better, but pretty soon I'm thinking about a Lexus.   So, I get a Lexus.  Now, you can tell me that a Mercedes is a better car than a Lexus, but at that point I'm just not all that interested.   Yes, maybe the Mercedes has feature or two, a comfort or two that the Lexus doesn't have, maybe it performs a smidgeon better than the Lexus, but differences like that have never been that appealing to me.   Would I like a better car?   Sure, but with a Lexus, I'm happy enough that I'll worry about other things.  

 

So, to bring it back to the Bills.  When Manuel was the QB, I was always thinking about what he needed to do better.   When it was Taylor, I was always thinking about what he needed to do better.   When it was Peterman, I was always thinking about buying him a plane ticket out of town.  But now that it's Allen, even though I know he can get better and I want him to get better, I spend pretty much no time thinking about what he needs to do to get better.   The Bills are thinking about it, and Allen is thinking about it, but to me it's kind of unknowable and it's a waste of my time to puzzle about it.   It's just how I think. 

 

So, when the conversation turns to backup offensive linemen, I can agree that like every position, depth is important, but there are no obvious or even semi-obvious choices in free agency who would have been better than what the Bills have and would be affordable.  There is no fifth-round draft pick who is obviously good enough to be a better backup as a rookie.   Given the talent that's out there, from where I sit, it's impossible for me to know which guys are the right guys to have on the bench.   All I can do is hope that Beane's obsessiveness, determination, and wisdom will help him figure that out.   I can't, and so I just don't bother spending my limited brain power on it. 

 

 

[Brand J]

19 hours ago, NewEra said:

I think Nick McCloud could emerge as competition for Dane Jackson. 

Apparently Nick McCloud is running with the safeties more these days. Not sure why because he tested with blazing speed and looked to have decent quickness.
Poyer had lots of praise for him recently though, said he reminded him of his younger self.

[RocCityRoller]

1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said:

Apparently Nick McCloud is running with the safeties more these days. Not sure why because he tested with blazing speed and looked to have decent quickness.
Poyer had lots of praise for him recently though, said he reminded him of his younger self.

@NewEra@JayBaller10

 

Count me in the Nick McCloud fanbase, or 'intrigued by' club. I really liked what he showed last pre-season.

Wrong thread to go in depth, but yeah some of us are really interested to see what he can do.

 

As for Edmunds, I feel like most of us have a pretty good feel for what he can and can't do in this defense, with what he is tasked with.

A lot of folks think it is not worthy of a big money second contract.

[NewEra]

12 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Apparently Nick McCloud is running with the safeties more these days. Not sure why because he tested with blazing speed and looked to have decent quickness.
Poyer had lots of praise for him recently though, said he reminded him of his younger self.

👍🏻 I read what Poyer said. I was under the impression that he was doing a bunch of everything, working equally with corners and safeties.  They love their versatility.

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

And I "think" I am not overstating how bad they were.    They were a GLARING weakness on an otherwise dominant team.

 

Here is the NFL's own next Gen stats link with their take on pressure stats..........Bills with second most pressures allowed and the most hurries allowed in the NFL(by a lot).

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2021/advanced.htm

 

Do some non-NFL owned metric services have them ranked better?........ perhaps.........but my point has been that statistically they ranked VERY badly in pass pro.

 

On reflection though, I think that stat I quoted from one of yolo's re-tweets was from around the time of the Tampa game.   

 

Which makes sense,  because they were indisputably terrible until they started running Josh Allen 10x per game to compensate for the struggles in pass pro.   Though as I mentioned, when they did NOT rush 10+ time in the Panthers game he got assaulted in the pocket.  

 

I'm not saying they weren't bad but I was just questioning that stat you were using claiming they were dead last because I hadn't seen it before.  Allen's ability to elude pressure did hide a glaring weakness on this team as it's pretty amazing we finished 24th in pressure % per drop back (according to next Gen stats you linked) but somehow finished 2nd in sacks allowed. 

Edited July 2, 2022 by Doc Brown

[gr8billsfan]

On 4/26/2022 at 5:51 AM, Yantha said:

Linebacker is a need.  But just how BIG of a need remains to be seen and I am guessing that most would agree that Tremaine is at the center of that discussion.  So?  A few questions from me to you.

 

What happened to Tremaine?  

Why hasn't he really held up to his first round grade?

Can he rebound?  What are the chances?  Will money motivate him as he finishes up his current contract?

Any insights on what Beane and the Bills brass think about Tremaine and his future in Buffalo?

Could Tremaine be used as trade bait on draft day?  Or before?

This draft is fairly deep in LB talent, even on day 3.  Should we move on or put our faith in Tremaine?

Sure he hasn’t lived up to the insane hype he got, but remember he’s young. This is a year for him to put on a show. Relax everyone. 

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I hear what you're saying, but I think you missed my point.   My point was one of personality.   What you're saying is that you and I are different, which is what I was saying in my post.  I agree that the objective is continuous improvement, and I'm glad the Bills have a GM and a coach with the fierce competitiveness and drive to keep pursuing it.   I'm not like that; although I agree the team always can get better, my brain has little interest in figuring how to get better at backup guard.  If there's a serious hole at some starting position, fine, I'll think about it.  Backup guard, no. 

 

I don't know a lot about cars, so some people may argue with the comparison, but it's sort of like this:   If I'm driving a Kia, I want to figure out how to upgrade.   So, I get a Honda, and it's clearly better, but pretty soon I'm thinking about a Lexus.   So, I get a Lexus.  Now, you can tell me that a Mercedes is a better car than a Lexus, but at that point I'm just not all that interested.   Yes, maybe the Mercedes has feature or two, a comfort or two that the Lexus doesn't have, maybe it performs a smidgeon better than the Lexus, but differences like that have never been that appealing to me.   Would I like a better car?   Sure, but with a Lexus, I'm happy enough that I'll worry about other things.  

 

So, to bring it back to the Bills.  When Manuel was the QB, I was always thinking about what he needed to do better.   When it was Taylor, I was always thinking about what he needed to do better.   When it was Peterman, I was always thinking about buying him a plane ticket out of town.  But now that it's Allen, even though I know he can get better and I want him to get better, I spend pretty much no time thinking about what he needs to do to get better.   The Bills are thinking about it, and Allen is thinking about it, but to me it's kind of unknowable and it's a waste of my time to puzzle about it.   It's just how I think. 

 

So, when the conversation turns to backup offensive linemen, I can agree that like every position, depth is important, but there are no obvious or even semi-obvious choices in free agency who would have been better than what the Bills have and would be affordable.  There is no fifth-round draft pick who is obviously good enough to be a better backup as a rookie.   Given the talent that's out there, from where I sit, it's impossible for me to know which guys are the right guys to have on the bench.   All I can do is hope that Beane's obsessiveness, determination, and wisdom will help him figure that out.   I can't, and so I just don't bother spending my limited brain power on it. 

 

 

I guess it boils down to everyone's perspective, time, and personality. Some fans love to analyze every aspect of the team vs some just watch the games on game day. To each it's own. 

45 minutes ago, gr8billsfan said:

Sure he hasn’t lived up to the insane hype he got, but remember he’s young. This is a year for him to put on a show. Relax everyone. 

I'll be waiting for the show...

[HappyDays]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

I recommend rewatching the Chiefs game. Spencer Brown was awful… Allen did a lot to mask his bad play throughout the game.

 

Well let's see what Spencer Brown looks like when he isn't a raw rookie from a small school, after taking a year off from playing football. He was never even supposed to play last year. I think he hit the rookie wall hard, which isn't surprising, and was completely gassed by the divisional round. Every team in the league is relying on some of their young players to take a step. It's a normal part of roster building.

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Sure… but some better competition brought in for a dude that was as bad as he was last season would’ve been ideal.

 

Sure, and having top 10 players at every position on the field would be ideal. But that's not how roster building works. You use the resources available to you to build the best possible team which means you have to make a few sacrifices at certain positions. Every team has a hole somewhere. RT isn't a premium position. We have a promising 2nd year player with high upside and a decent veteran. Ideal, no, but it's satisfactory for a less important position. And if that situation is what you can point to as the biggest weakness on the roster that's a sign that the overall roster is in really good shape.

 

Edited July 2, 2022 by HappyDays

[HappyDays]

28 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Imagine scraping the 8 man defensive line rotation and using those funds on better offensive linemen… but yes I know, roster building.😉

 

Every defensive line rotates. Offensive lines don't. The 2nd string DT and DE is more important than any other 2nd stringer on the team because they aren't just backups, they are rotational starters. So yes of course we spent money on DL depth this offseason. We lost most of our DL starters from last year. On the OL we only lost Williams. Stop looking at roster building in a vacuum.

 

30 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

What decent veteran? 

 

Quessenberry. He is a decent backup option if Spencer Brown doesn't progress.

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

Quessenberry. He is a decent backup option if Spencer Brown doesn't progress.

Not really.  All I see our two potential RT's that struggled in pass protection last year.  Brown has the physical ability to make a significant leap and hopefully Kromer helps him make that leap.  RT remains my number one concern on the offense this year though.

[mead107]

Trade him

 

[SDS]

After reviewing the last few pages, there’s neither any specific talk about Edmunds, nor even really any general talk about him.

 

There’s really no reason to keep this open as a generic football discussion thread. So I’m gonna go ahead and close it. If anyone feels they wanna carry-on the conversation that they were having, just make a new topic with the appropriate title so we all know what the discussion is about. Thanks.