*[EDIT]* Multiple reports Browns actively shopping Mayfield pg. 29/30 - Ravens / Browns in QB contract pickle

[Seventeen]

2 hours ago, FireChans said:

Cleveland is in the same position the Vikings were 3 years ago. Too good to be terrible. Not good enough to be a true contender. With a QB who will be hard to replace.

 

For that reason, I think you pay Baker. 

 

Not so sure Mayfield would be hard to replace with Wilson, Garoppolo, Carr, Cousins, Ryan and maybe Deshaun Watson & Rodgers available. Trubisky would have done a better job than Mayfield this year. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Roy Hobbs

[aceman_16]

 

I am guessing Baker is done in Cleveland. I am amazed they played him in a meaningless game. In my opinion....IF he was the Browns' QB going forward they would have rested him Sunday.

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

What does Tua have to do with anything? He sucks.

 

Exactly- the pedestrian numbers Jackson put up and Filthy states make Jackson and unequivocal Pro-Bowler are only great if the guy QB’ing your team is even worse like Tua.

 

The guy is a Miami Troll - right down to his name and he is only mad because his QB sucks.

 

 

[Doc]

41 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

Exactly- the pedestrian numbers Jackson put up and Filthy states make Jackson and unequivocal Pro-Bowler are only great if the guy QB’ing your team is even worse like Tua.

 

The guy is a Miami Troll - right down to his name and he is only mad because his QB sucks.

Oh, didn’t know he was a Miami fan. It explains everything.

[JGMcD2]

5 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

It does make sense, if you are looking long term I'm not taking Brady or Rogers over Allen right now because they both may be playing in their last seasons. If you are looking at pure potential I still think there are several guys that truly may end up HOF players compared to Allen.

 

But if you want to lump everyone together than yes I'm not taking Allen over at least 5-7 other NFL QB's right now and why would anyone else based on comparitive body of work and overall ceiling?

You listed Herbert, Burrow, Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers specifically. Let's look at their comparative body of work as you call it... 

 

Here are their stats from the past two seasons side by side... please explain to me how the other 5 are definitively better than Josh Allen over the past two seasons. The per game stats are there too because I know you're going to argue Burrow was hurt and that it's not fair because of that... but on a per game basis he's still behind Josh Allen.

 

 

For reference Josh Allen (9845) is 2nd in total yards behind Patrick Mahomes (9944). Josh Allen (86) is also 2nd in total TDs behind Aaron Rodgers (89). Granted Josh Allen (34) also did turn the ball over a little bit more than everyone else. Brady (28), Burrow (25), Herbert (26), Mahomes (25) and Rodgers (11). 

 

I really shouldn't have to include this here... but because you said it's debatable that Josh Allen is behind Dak Prescott, Kyler Murray, Ryan Tannehill, Lamar Jackson and Derek Carr... let's take a look! (It's not letting upload the image, but I'll include right after this...)

 

Compared to this group, Josh Allen (9845) is 1st in total yards... the next closest is Derek Carr (8970)... followed by Kyler Murray (8732). Josh Allen (86) is also 1st in total TDs... the next closest is Kyler Murray (65) and Ryan Tannehill (64). 

 

Derek Carr (36) had the most turnovers. The others were Kyler Murray (26), Lamar Jackson (29), Dak Prescott (23) and Tannehill (26). A quick reminder that Murray, Prescott and Jackson all played less games than Josh Allen. 

 

Rodgers has clearly been the best QB over the past two seasons. It's not even close, the man is on another level.

 

The notion that you're arguing it's clear cut that Josh is behind the other 4 is insane... and then trying to debate he's somehow behind the other 5 is laughable. He's been playing like a top 3 QB - it's just a game of FilthyBeast manipulation if you want to try and argue he's behind the rest. 

 

We can discuss how to measure overall ceiling if you'd like, considering your "comparative body of work" argument doesn't really have legs... 

 

EDIT**** Adding the stats for the next group of 5 with Dak Prescott, Derek Carr, Kyler Murray, Ryan Tannehill and Lamar Jackson.

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by JGMcD2

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Washington and Dallas both kind of paved the way for what could likely happen for Jackson. Just franchise tag him if you are still not 100% sold he won't continue to regress or stay healthy. If he is your guy then he is your guy and the Ravens should pay him accordingly but if they have their doubts the franchise tag is there for a reason.

 

Baker probably isn't worth the franchise tag unless he really steps up his game. He's likely looking at a new team after next season. Now if he has like a 4000+ yard 30 TD season then I could see them tagging him for a year. 

6 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

It does make sense,

 

Makes as much sense as your Miami is going to win the division takes these last two years. Which is to say, no sense at all.

[CNYfan]

Don't feed the troll

[Behindenemylines]

I see Cleveland giving Mayfield another year while buying time to unwind tge marketing they have built around him. Too much money involved to cut him now and while he’s not healthy. 
 

jackson is another story because if he’s not “their guy” he’s definitely got a big value on the market.  I could see a Miami trade of two firsts + and Tua for him or something along those lines. Buys them a year, avoids a huge contract, and loads them up for the drafts.   
 

[bobobonators]

14 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Either team would be fools to give those QBs an Allen type contract.  Lamar is figured out and isn't a good passer of the football.  Im sure Ill get roll eyes, check marks, and flak for this but I don't care.  I've said it from year one and I will continue to say it.  Lamar is not a good QB.  Probably the best athlete on the field but Lamar said it best... not bad for a RB.

 

As far as Baker he has played with a pretty bad injury all year so its hard to judge but based on his overall work, I don't think he is very good either.  He turns the ball over too much.  If he stopped that he would be a good game manager though.

 

If it were me, I would at best franchise tag those QBs or offer them a mid level contract and look to replace them sooner than later.  Anything more than a mid level contract would just set the team back.  Ravens already made that mistake with Flacco.  Will they make the same mistake twice?  Already seen what the Ravens look like this year from injury.  They aren't going to look any better when they can't pay anyone.  Even full strength, Lamar is not winning them a SB.  He is just a regular season super hero.  Not going to get more than that.  Especially not now.  More and more teams are getting better.  More and more teams have figured out the Lamar/Roman formula.  Contain Lamar.  Take Andrews out of the game.  Lamar isn't good enough after that.  I don't care what wideouts they have.

A considerable part of your post was dedicated to convincing yourself Lamar isnt good enough. 
 

Just this season, Lamar Jackson broke the NFL record for most wins by a QB under 25, eclipsing Dan Marino. Hes already won an MVP. Still not enough though. Just contain him. Lmao. 
 

Who do you propose the Ravens replace him with? If im a Ravens fan, one in hand is better than two in the bush. And comparing Lamar to Flacco is sad. Flacco was never a game changer. He had a few decent seasons.

 

Answer this:  what more could you possibly expect out of Lamar (or any young QB) at this point in his career? And please dont say “win a super bowl,” because there are countless amazing, franchise QBs that never won a super bowl. And certainly not by the age of 25. 

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, bobobonators said:

A considerable part of your post was dedicated to convincing yourself Lamar isnt good enough. 
 

Just this season, Lamar Jackson broke the NFL record for most wins by a QB under 25, eclipsing Dan Marino. Hes already won an MVP. Still not enough though. Just contain him. Lmao. 
 

Who do you propose the Ravens replace him with? If im a Ravens fan, one in hand is better than two in the bush. And comparing Lamar to Flacco is sad. Flacco was never a game changer. He had a few decent seasons.

 

Answer this:  what more could you possibly expect out of Lamar (or any young QB) at this point in his career? And please dont say “win a super bowl,” because there are countless amazing, franchise QBs that never won a super bowl. And certainly not by the age of 25. 

 

I don't have to convince myself of anything.  I have been saying the same thing about Lamar since year one... Probably the best athlete on the field but not a good passer of the football.

 

I don't care what record he broke.  I don't care that he won MVP because he threw 30+ TD passes with 1 yard RPO flips on half of them.  He deserved the reward sure. That doesn't mean he is a good passer of the football.  It means he had a year that took the league by storm because the league wasn't prepared for his athleticism.  They are getting there.

 

Thats the conundrum... you can't replace him immediately unless they did something like work a trade for Watson.  He is good enough for now to be a regular season hero.  He isn't good enough to get much of anywhere in the playoffs.  Im not comparing Lamar to Flacco. Im comparing the situation of contracts.  If they pay Lamar like the Bills payed Allen then they aren't going to keep that defense unless they continually draft well.  Winning is a team sport.  Lamar is not carrying that team. There was hardly any drop off with Huntley.

 

I would expect him to improve as a passer.  He hasn't.  It has nothing to do with actually winning the super bowl. It has to do with whether I believe he will win a super bowl.  I don't.  So to me that is not good enough.  If all you want is a lot of regular season wins for a few years then sure... pay the man over 250 million bucks.  Thats not what I would strive for in a franchise.  At some point his strengths will weaken which... they already are.  Then he doesn't even become the regular season hero anymore.

[billieve420]

Jackson is going to get paid by Baltimore. It is more a question of when not if.

 

Mayfield unless they can trade for a QB will probably play out the final year of his contract and then make decision on whether to resign him.

[Punching Bag]

13 hours ago, mattynh said:

 

He has gone downhill performance wise from his rookie year which was pretty good.  This year is tough because he has a significant injury that he is playing through and is affecting him which could cost him a lot of money.  But I think he gets healthy, plays next year on the option and then the Browns can decide.

 

He actually approved for a while when they took his control away and slowly it was added in last year.

This year he has regressed greatly.

[97bills]

15 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

That was a mistake.  A number of those were made.

*
Then again, not everyone was wrong. 🤔

Think goodness for once in 20 years 🤪

[97bills]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I don't have to convince myself of anything.  I have been saying the same thing about Lamar since year one... Probably the best athlete on the field but not a good passer of the football.

 

I don't care what record he broke.  I don't care that he won MVP because he threw 30+ TD passes with 1 yard RPO flips on half of them.  He deserved the reward sure. That doesn't mean he is a good passer of the football.  It means he had a year that took the league by storm because the league wasn't prepared for his athleticism.  They are getting there.

 

Thats the conundrum... you can't replace him immediately unless they did something like work a trade for Watson.  He is good enough for now to be a regular season hero.  He isn't good enough to get much of anywhere in the playoffs.  Im not comparing Lamar to Flacco. Im comparing the situation of contracts.  If they pay Lamar like the Bills payed Allen then they aren't going to keep that defense unless they continually draft well.  Winning is a team sport.  Lamar is not carrying that team. There was hardly any drop off with Huntley.

 

I would expect him to improve as a passer.  He hasn't.  It has nothing to do with actually winning the super bowl. It has to do with whether I believe he will win a super bowl.  I don't.  So to me that is not good enough.  If all you want is a lot of regular season wins for a few years then sure... pay the man over 250 million bucks.  Thats not what I would strive for in a franchise.  At some point his strengths will weaken which... they already are.  Then he doesn't even become the regular season hero anymore.

Everything you said is right on. Me and my friends talk about this all season, as soon as Lamar Loses some of that speed it’s over. So a GM has to ask his self how long will that be 2 or 3 years maybe? And I don’t think your knocking off two or three playoff teams then winning a super bowl runner the ball. But I do believe the ravens will pay him because they don’t have a choice maybe a contract they can get out of in 3 years. 

[Norcalbillsfan]

16 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

When Beane extended Josh last year it was the expectation that Jackson and Mayfield would also get an extension done before the start of the regular season.  That never happened and now those two franchises find themselves with a bit of a dilemma.

 

Despite being voted to the Pro Bowl again (and Jackson's team will beat that drum despite the fact he clearly doesn't deserve it), Jackson has had a down year in almost every category and has not been available due to injury for part of the second half of the season.  He hasn't played well enough to get a contract that is more lucrative than Allen's, but that is what they are going to be asking for and it will be tough for the Ravens as an organization to pay him less.

 

Baker has had a terrible season and is also down in almost every meaningful statistical category despite being on a team loaded with talent and behind one of the best O-Lines in the NFL.  No NFL QB has had more interceptions than Baker has in the last four years. He has evolved into a serviceable game managing QB.  In fairness, he has dealt with a non-throwing shoulder injury that muddies the water this year a bit.

 

Here are how the 3 QBs line up statistically this year through Week 17;

 

Josh Allen 2021 

Games Played; 16

Completions;  385

Passing Yards;  4,168

Comp %;  64.1

Passing TD's;  34

INT's;  15

Rushing Yards; 700

Average Per Rush;  6 yards

Rushing TD's;  6

Rushing 1st Downs;  51

 

Lamar Jackson 2021   -  Pro Bowl 

Games Played; 13 full games (knocked out early in game 14)

Completions;  246

Passing Yards;  2,882

Comp %;  64.4

Passing TD's;  16

INT's;  13

Rushing Yards;  767

Average Per Rush;  5.8 yards

Rushing TD's;  2

Rushing 1st Downs;  48

 

Baker Mayfield 2021

Games Played;  15

Completions;  237

Passing Yards;  2,825

Comp %;  62.4

Passing TD's;  15

INT's;  11

Rushing Yards;  118

Average Per Rush;  3.4 yards

Rushing TD's;  1

Rushing 1st Downs;  10

 

Looking at those stats and watching the arc of their careers, while Josh isn't putting up numbers as spectacular as last year, I think he has proven that the 2020 season was not an anomaly.  He is one of the top five QBs in the NFL by any measuring stick.  Lamar and Baker on the other hand have had a year of inconsistency where they have played worse than last year and both teams are unlikely to make the playoffs. 

 

The fact that neither franchise locked down Lamar and Baker before this season means that the organizations harbor some doubt about them and wasn't willing to commit long term no matter what they say publicly.  They kicked the can down the road a year and the question is now what do they do with the 2021 season in the bag?

 

1.)  Do they make them play out their 5th year options and see how they do before coming to the table? 

2.)  Do they play hardball and negotiate a contract less than what Allen got even though the cap is about to explode?

3.)  Do they go after a free agent QB and move on? 

4.)  Do they give them a contract on par or better than Allen's because the other options are unpalatable for various reasons?

5.)  Do they draft a QB and start over (slim pickings this year, especially at their likely draft spot)?

 

I think Lamar clearly has a stronger hand to play than Baker.   Both franchises are in a corner here.  The best thing for the Bills is for both franchises to overpay for their QB.  It's going to be one of the best storylines of the off season this year.  I've got my popcorn ready. 

 

I'm so glad the Bills aren't in that boat.

 

 

I see baker and the browns doing the dak/cowboys dance for awhile. I think the ravens give lamar a slightly smaller contract than josh with maybe some more guaranteed money to sweeten the deal. But I agree they are both in a pickle, the browns I think more than ravens. Ravens had the excuse of getting ravaged by injuries but the browns are way too talented to suck as bad as they do.

[97bills]

10 hours ago, TBBills said:

You need to learn how to read information... correctly.

 

When you are the only one who thinks you are right it's most likely b.c you are wrong. 

Aren't you the same guy who kept saying the Dolphins were the best team in the AFC East b.c they went on a winning streak?

 

 

It was you!!

 

 

 

So great to add this pile of ***** thread to your list of garbage. It's reasons like this why I am not worried that you think you're right b.c you always end up wrong.

Now that’s funny I needed that 😂

Just now, 97bills said:

Now that’s funny I needed that 😂

It was you!!!! So funny 😂

[BruceVilanch]

16 hours ago, Governor said:

My gut tells me that the Ravens are looking for a way out and would love to dump Lamar if possible.

My gut tells me it's a fart sometimes, it's not always right.

[Turk71]

Jackson will be re-signed at similar to Josh numbers I think. I don't think he is necessarily worth that but he is worth a helluva lot more than Mayfield.

I would dump Mayfield but I'm hoping he gets a big extension and they are mired in mediocrity for years to come.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Turk71

[YoloinOhio]

Listening to the pressers from mayfield and stefanski yesterday, I think those two are headed for a divorce.

[Seventeen]

51 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Listening to the pressers from mayfield and stefanski yesterday, I think those two are headed for a divorce.

 

Makes you wonder if there's a lot more under the covers with Mayfield / Stefanski. Did Stefanski say why he left Hudson on his own to deal 

with T.J. Watt ? Mayfield could be gone but it would take Haslam admitting he was wrong about his #1 pick. 

 

Not sure the relationship is repairable ...