MYTH Busted: "The Defense couldn't stop the Run"

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Okay so were good with our rushing defense then. Thanks for the brilliant overly aggressive analysis.

 

Overly aggressive?  I wasn't being aggressive at all.  Just saying this notion we couldn't stop the run last night needs to stop.  Our Defense didnt cost us this game.  

 

Self inflicted mistakes, poor Redzone play calling, and Dabolls inability to adjust again are our biggest issues.  

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

 

Did the 69 yard run count or what?

 

Did you miss where Alpha says "We gave up one TD on the day"?

 

No one is discounting that play. Stop saying we are. It isnt a real argument.

[ngbills]

D played well enough to win. Some drives you wish they stopped them but they gave the O great field position multiple times. 

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

46 carries for 222 yards

3 pass attempts

 

In terms of offensive play calls this was one of the most lop-sided games in NFL history. They had 30+ straight running plays. I knew they were going to run the ball, my mom knew they were going to run the ball, all 70k+ people in the stadium knew they were going to run the ball, but apparently the Bills DEF and coaches were surprised by it. The Patriots having any sort of running success in that scenario should be an embarrassment to the defense and coaches. 

Coach mentioned they knew what NE would run, so you and your mom aren't smarter than they are. Neither are the "fans" blaming the defense. Contrary to some here, NE is a damn good team. they're going to bust one here and there. The D gave our offense plenty of chances to score in prime territory, but key players on offense let the team down. Hello Diggs, Knox, Breida and Josh. Bass missed a very makeable FG too. Too many offensive miscues on too many scoring chances. You and your mom should watch a replay of the game and count how many times the offense didn't take advantage of the field position given to them. I guess the only way the defense is blameless, is a shut out. OK, sure.

[dpberr]

The Bills knew what was coming and couldn't turn off the faucet and keep it off.  That's my criticism of Leslie Frazier last night.  The Patriots really won this game with ball control.  

 

You shouldn't allow the opposition to win TOP when 99% of the plays were barely disguised run plays by an ok, but not all-pro, Patriots backfield.  They knew the answers to the test.  There's no Derrick Henry back there.  

 

You only started seeing some dynamic adjustments when it was too late.  Milano and Co. should have been shooting a guy into the gap on every play long before the 4th quarter. 

 

Patriots TOP 32:01

Bills TOP: 27:59

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, BillsFanSD said:

I can point to 222 reasons for why this is mistaken.

 

So suddenly 222 yards of offense in a game is bad?  What would you be saying if they passed for 222 yards?  Probably not much.  Defense gave up 2 drives over 5 plays all game and 1 TD.  They had a strong outing.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Overly aggressive?  I wasn't being aggressive at all.  Just saying this notion we couldn't stop the run last night needs to stop.  Our Defense didnt cost us this game.  

 

Self inflicted mistakes, poor Redzone play calling, and Dabolls inability to adjust again are our biggest issues.  

Nobody said it cost us the game. But, people are saying it wasn't good enough, to allow a 64 yard td run (even McD) and something like 8-9 chunk runs of over 10 yards.

[MasterStrategist]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Patriots had 9 real possessions all game (not counting the last to kill the clock).

 

They punted 6 out of 9 possessions.

 

4 of those punts were 3 and outs. The other 2 possessions were 4 plays and 5 plays. The only long drive they had resulted in a mere Field Goal.

 

What more could the Defense have done?

 

Punt (3 plays)

Punt (3 plays)

TD (3 plays)

FG (9 plays)

Punt (3 plays)

Punt (4 plays)

Punt (5 plays)

FG (14 plays)

Punt (3 plays)

Great post! Agree, can't imagine many can be blaming the defense for their effort.  14 points allowed is solid no matter the weather.

 

Lack of execution/finishing offensive drives has occurred way too many games this season.  We crossed the 50, 7x against Jacksonville to only come away with 6 points. 

 

Frustrating when we've shown glimpses and certainly have the potential, hopefully they can hone in and correct the issues down the strecth

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

So suddenly 222 yards of offense in a game is bad?  What would you be saying if they passed for 222 yards?  Probably not much.  Defense gave up 2 drives over 5 plays all game and 1 TD.  They had a strong outing.

That's hardly apples to apples 222 yards rushing is more like 400 yards passing.

[BRH]

44 minutes ago, Fred Slacks said:

I also want to go back and watch the game to see how bad NE was holding.  It seemed like it was happening a lot.  They maybe called NE 2 times all night on it.  Like I distinctly recall 2 plays where our DE/DT was in the backfield and it looked like they were getting held.  Right in front of the play.  something it seems like the referee would see.  I know some of those calls are a wash but I screamed from my couch so it must be true lol.

 

There was definitely a call on OUR offensive line when Van Noy threw up his hands (well after the RB had passed his level) and did a great acting job to get the call on Brown (I think).

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

The run defense didn't cost us the game, but in played a role.

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, dpberr said:

The Bills knew what was coming and couldn't turn off the faucet and keep it off.  That's my criticism of Leslie Frazier last night.  The Patriots really won this game with ball control.  

 

You shouldn't allow the opposition to win TOP when 99% of the plays were barely disguised run plays by an ok, but not all-pro, Patriots backfield.  They knew the answers to the test.  There's no Derrick Henry back there.  

 

You only started seeing some dynamic adjustments when it was too late.  Milano and Co. should have been shooting a guy into the gap on every play long before the 4th quarter. 

 

Patriots TOP 32:01

Bills TOP: 27:59

 

TOP difference was more because our lack of execution, those stats dont tell the story and are a misleading stat for last nights game.  They run the ball every play, clocks keeps ticking TOP keeps climbing DESPITE actual production.  They punted 6 times and 5 or fewer plays on 7 of their 9 drives.  We were throwing a lot and clock stops on incompletions which makes the TOP looks worse than it was for our defense.  

 

End of the day, offensive gameplan and execution, penalties. drops were the culprit here.   

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

That's hardly apples to apples 222 yards rushing is more like 400 yards passing.

 

Yards and yards. A passing yard is 3 feet. A rushing yard is 3 feet.

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

TOP difference was more because our lack of execution, those stats dont tell the story and are a misleading stat for last nights game.  They run the ball every play, clocks keeps ticking TOP keeps climbing DESPITE actual production.  They punted 6 times and 5 or fewer plays on 7 of their 9 drives.  We were throwing a lot and clock stops on incompletions which makes the TOP looks worse than it was for our defense.  

 

End of the day, offensive gameplan and execution, penalties. drops were the culprit here.   

 

Dawson Knox alone, with his drops and drive-killing penalty, is more at fault for this loss than our entire Defense and all the rushing yards.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I never said to not count that run. I'll fully count it. One.

 

The defense had ONE bad play.

NE*’s first FG drive started by a 10-yard run up the middle, followed by a 12-yard pass, and also included 6-yard and 16-yard runs up the middle.

 

NE*’s final 1st half drive started with a 17-yard run up the middle.

NE*’s 2nd play of the 2nd half was a 7-yard run up the middle.

NE*’s 2nd FG drive started with runs of 22, 11, and 6 yards, and included another 3-play stretch of runs of 10, 5, and 5 yards.

 

Thats 13 bad plays.

15 if you also count the 5-yards on 2 consecutive QB sneaks on that second FG drive.

[eSJayDee]

I'm kinda torn on this cuz the circumstances seldom (practically never) occur.  Ordinarily, yielding over 200 yds rushing is a bad effort.  But, they did only yield 14 pts, didn't substantially lose TOP, and had good 3rd down results.  They did yield numerous 10+ yard runs, but considering they faced 46 rushes, is the 10 or whatever that bad a %age?  IDK.

That said, it was apparent early on that pass defense was irrelevant.  They weren't going to throw.  Knowing this, yielding almost 5 yds per carry (if you discount much of the yardage on the long TD run) is probably pretty poor, but again, since this situation virtually never occurs, one doesn't really have a comparison.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

NE*’s first FG drive started by a 10-yard run up the middle, followed by a 12-yard pass, and also included 6-yard and 16-yard runs up the middle.

 

NE*’s final 1st half drive started with a 17-yard run up the middle.

NE*’s 2nd play of the 2nd half was a 7-yard run up the middle.

NE*’s 2nd FG drive started with runs of 22, 11, and 6 yards, and included another 3-play stretch of runs of 10, 5, and 5 yards.

 

Thats 13 bad plays.

15 if you also count the 5-yards on 2 consecutive QB sneaks on that second FG drive.

 

Not if they dont ultimately result in points, so I dont count a number of those plays as "bad". We still make a stop and force a punt, it's like they never happened. IMO. But I appreciate you keeping it  to mostly scoring drives.

Edited December 7, 2021 by DrDawkinstein

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Nobody said it cost us the game. But, people are saying it wasn't good enough, to allow a 64 yard td run (even McD) and something like 8-9 chunk runs of over 10 yards.

 

They why did 7 of their 9 drives end in 5 plays or less?  Why did they punt 6 out of 9 drives?  

 

Its the NFL, you WONT stop a team on every play, every drive.  The guys on the other side of the ball are paid to make plays too.  

 

So to see people in here claiming we cant stop the run when we stopped the run most the night outside a small handful of runs is what the issue is here.  

 

Defense gave up less than 240 yards...1 TD...forced 6 punts in 9 drives, etc etc....thats a good defensive effort that should be enough to win most games.  

[JohnBonhamRocks]

19 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I never said to not count that run. I'll fully count it. One.

 

The defense had ONE bad play.

 

 

Bills started at about the 40 yard line all night. They had at least 3 possessions to try to score and tie or take the lead. They failed. That isnt on the Defense.

 

 

How did they not stop it when they held them to punts and 2 FGs for most of the night? If any NFL team keeps doing one thing over and over, they'll amass some yardage and success. The Pats are paid professionals too.

The Bills paid professionals should have caught onto the only-run offense and been able to stop it. Look at my other recent post. At least 13-15 bad plays on defense. 

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, JohnBonhamRocks said:

The Bills paid professionals should have caught onto the only-run offense and been able to stop it. Look at my other recent post. At least 13-15 bad plays on defense. 

 

And yet only 1 TD and a couple of FGs.

 

If someone asked you before the season, "Would you accept limiting the Jags to 9 points, and the Pats to 14 points?" wouldn't you take that and our chances to win those games?

[JohnBonhamRocks]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Not if they dont ultimately result in points, so I dont count a number of those plays as "bad". We still make a stop and force a punt, it's like they never happened. IMO. But I appreciate you keeping it  to mostly scoring drives.

Thing is it’s not just whether or not they score. More time of possession for them. Better field position for them. Less opportunities for Allen & Co. 

 

Again, even less excusable given the obvious nature of NE*’s offensive game-plan. 

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

That's hardly apples to apples 222 yards rushing is more like 400 yards passing.

No it does not what so ever.  That is not even remotely true, I mean come one dude, this isn't fantasy football.  1 yard equals 1 yard.  1 point equals 1 point.

 

If we gave up 222 yards while also giving up 200+ yards passing, then those 222 yards rushing would be a problem because thats over 400 yards of offense.  But when you hold an offense to less than 240 yards of offense, guess what...thats pretty good outing for your defense that likely means they didnt give up a lot of points, which they didnt. 

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Thing is it’s not just whether or not they score. More time of possession for them. Better field position for them. Less opportunities for Allen & Co. 

 

Again, even less excusable given the obvious nature of NE*’s offensive game-plan. 

 

They didnt have better field position all night. We averaged starting at the 40+, they averaged around the 20.

 

We have PLENTY of opportunities and possessions to tie or take the lead and came up with NOTHING. That's on the Offense. The D did enough to win.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

And yet only 1 TD and a couple of FGs.

 

If someone asked you before the season, "Would you accept limiting the Jags to 9 points, and the Pats to 14 points?" wouldn't you take that and our chances to win those games?

Yes, which is why my other post started by saying most of my gripes are with the offense. 
 

Just don’t think the defense had a great game either. Solid point total for a normal game. But not for a game where NE* almost exclusively ran and showed no sign of a passing threat. 

[DrDawkinstein]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

No it does not what so ever.  That is not even remotely true, I mean come one dude, this isn't fantasy football.  1 yard equals 1 yard.  1 point equals 1 point.

 

If we gave up 222 yards while also giving up 200+ yards passing, then those 222 yards rushing would be a problem because thats over 400 yards of offense.  But when you hold an offense to less than 240 yards of offense, guess what...thats pretty good outing for your defense that likely means they didnt give up a lot of points, which they didnt. 

 

People are obviously stuck in their feelings about this, no matter how irrational they are. Oh well. If what I laid out in the OP cant open their eyes a little, nothing will.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by DrDawkinstein

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

They didnt have better field position all night. We averaged starting at the 40+, they averaged around the 20.

 

We have PLENTY of opportunities and possessions to tie or take the lead and came up with NOTHING. That's on the Offense. The D did enough to win.

Agreed it’s more on the offense and D did enough to win. Just think given the nature of the game with no passing threat they could have done better. 
 

It’s tough to argue our defense had a good game against the run and that’s all NE* did.

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

And yet only 1 TD and a couple of FGs.

 

If someone asked you before the season, "Would you accept limiting the Jags to 9 points, and the Pats to 14 points?" wouldn't you take that and our chances to win those games?

This is a total strawman. No one said the offense was less to blame. What most people have said is the Pats said, “here’s what we are going to do all night, try to stop us” and still ran it down our throat for 4.8 YPC.

 

No one who knows football is pointing at last night as a great defensive performance. Nobody. Your premise is flawed.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Patriots had 9 real possessions all game (not counting the last to kill the clock).

 

They punted 6 out of 9 possessions.

 

4 of those punts were 3 and outs. The other 2 possessions were 4 plays and 5 plays. The only long drive they had resulted in a mere Field Goal.

 

What more could the Defense have done?

 

Punt (3 plays)

Punt (3 plays)

TD (3 plays)

FG (9 plays)

Punt (3 plays)

Punt (4 plays)

Punt (5 plays)

FG (14 plays)

Punt (3 plays)

Careful sir....you are correct but ppl out for blood this week

[Dablitzkrieg]

Josh missed Diggs twice and a wide open Beasley on 4th.  Moss has no vision and missed a wide open gap for a TD.  Knox turned into Knox last night.   It was the offense,  not the defense

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

This is a total strawman. No one said the offense was less to blame. What most people have said is the Pats said, “here’s what we are going to do all night, try to stop us” and still ran it down our throat for 4.8 YPC.

 

No one who knows football is pointing at last night as a great defensive performance. Nobody. Your premise is flawed.

 

Bro you made up a strawman to accuse me of strawmanning. Way to inception that.

 

Speaking strictly from a Defensive performance standpoint, 9 points and 14 points are good/great performances in the NFL. Everyone who knows football knows that.

[John from Riverside]

Just now, Dablitzkrieg said:

Josh missed Diggs twice and a wide open Beasley on 4th.  Moss has no vision and missed a wide open gap for a TD.  Knox turned into Knox last night.   It was the offense,  not the defense

He also hit Diggs right in the hands with a bomb...which was dropped

[MasterStrategist]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

People are obviously stuck in their feelings about this, no matter who irrational they are. Oh well. If what I laid out in the OP can open their eyes a little, nothing is.

Agree with all your comments btw, and great topic starter.

 

If there's one infuriating thing about the defensive effort, it was lack of fundamentals/poor tackling.  Way too many missed "gaps", overpursuit and missed tackles that extended a couple drives.  Bottom line, they performed solid and well enough to give the Off a chance to win.  

 

I'm not an Edmunds hater, but he got lost way more than usual last night.  Poor angles, not disengaging from blocks.  Our DTs finally learned how to play against a "trap" block...like something you're taught in HS. And similar with our def ends against toss sweeps, ie:pin and pull concepts.  Fundamentals is what NE executed throughout the night, while simplistic, it was something we struggled with at times.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

The Pats and BB are not unhappy with their run game performance, they are thrilled. Their run game was awesome.  And, every football analyst anywhere today has said as much.

 

Some of you guys go ahead and be happy with performance, I'm not and that's not bad analysis.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Bro you made up a strawman to accuse me of strawmanning. Way to inception that.

 

Speaking strictly from a Defensive performance standpoint, 9 points and 14 points are good/great performances in the NFL. Everyone who knows football knows that.

strictly speaking, allowing 14 points and 4.8 YPC on 44 rushes when a team cannot throw the football is not a great performance in the NFL. 
 

The Pats aren’t mad about their offense today. They’re ecstatic. You’re just wrong.

Edited December 7, 2021 by FireChans

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, MasterStrategist said:

Agree with all your comments btw, and great topic starter.

 

If there's one infuriating thing about the defensive effort, it was lack of fundamentals/poor tackling.  Way too many missed "gaps", overpursuit and missed tackles that extended a couple drives.  Bottom line, they performed solid and well enough to give the Off a chance to win.  

 

I'm not an Edmunds hater, but he got lost way more than usual last night.  Poor angles, not disengaging from blocks.  Our DTs finally learned how to play against a "trap" block...like something you're taught in HS. And similar with our def ends against toss sweeps, ie:pin and pull concepts.  Fundamentals is what NE executed throughout the night, while simplistic, it was something we struggled with at times.

 

I will absolutely agree with this. Our tackling was atrocious, and has been all year. Plenty of runs should have been stopped for shorter gains or even losses. Edmunds had a horrible night.

[quinnearlysghost88]

Our defense is built for shootouts and our offense is built for shutouts. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

No way it makes it to Gabe... If it's not batted down, IMO balls falls at Davis' feet.  Not enough needed mustard on it to reach him.

 

... And you know why it wouldn't have got to him? 🤫...

 

Josh was pressured, but the pass was long gone early. Had nothing to do with. 

 

 

[Rock'em Sock'em]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

So 3-and-outs on half the possessions is embarrassing. Got it.

Giving up 5YPC when you are 95% sure they are going to run is embarrassing. The defense did play well on over 50% of the snaps - and they had lots of moments.  But just about any college QB and many good HS level QBs could have executed 50 handoffs and led the PATs to 14 points and victory against the Bills last night.  That's what is embarrassing (for them - not me or you).

 

It's a team game.  Red Zone offense, a missed short FG, dropped passes, and horrid fumble on a handoff are why they didn't score more.  Clock management in the 4th Q contributed too.  Lots of areas to improve.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Rock'em Sock'em

[BeastMaster]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Bro you made up a strawman to accuse me of strawmanning. Way to inception that.

 

Speaking strictly from a Defensive performance standpoint, 9 points and 14 points are good/great performances in the NFL. Everyone who knows football knows that.

Except that this was not the standard NFL game.

 

You're starting from a flawed premise, which is leading you to a faulty conclusion.

 

The Pats did what they set out to do, and the defense didn't stop them from doing it. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

strictly speaking, allowing 14 points and 4.8 YPC on 44 rushes when a team cannot throw the football is not a great performance in the NFL. 
 

The Pats aren’t mad about their offense today. They’re ecstatic. You’re just wrong.

 

14 points and 240 total yards is a good D performance. I am right.

 

Pats are happy because they won. That is all. If the Offense doesnt trip on our ***** all night, they are much more pissed about their crappy QB who cant be trusted to throw the ball.

[ExiledInIllinois]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

strictly speaking, allowing 14 points and 4.8 YPC on 44 rushes when a team cannot throw the football is not a great performance in the NFL. 
 

The Pats aren’t mad about their offense today. They’re ecstatic. You’re just wrong.

It's not great football, but will work in bad weather.  Like putting studded snows on a vehicle.  Don't attempt to drive it August over 2 mph.