Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tommy Callahan]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

It seems odd. Once Ukraine joins NATO then it would seem unnecessary…no?

you think they will actually do it?  

 

Everything I have read states that even if they do, it won't be till after the war.  And talk of Democratic conditions needing to be met.  

 

 

 

 

 

Ukraine’s future is in NATO, U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan says - POLITICO

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nato-summit-results-in-brief-mixed-news-for-ukraine-hope-for-sweden-and-a-response-to-russia/ar-AA1dM4qT

 

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Chris farley said:

you think they will actually do it?  

 

Everything I have read states that even if they do, it won't be till after the war.  And talk of Democratic conditions needing to be met.  

 

 

 

 

 

Ukraine’s future is in NATO, U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan says - POLITICO

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/nato-summit-results-in-brief-mixed-news-for-ukraine-hope-for-sweden-and-a-response-to-russia/ar-AA1dM4qT

 

 

 

 

From what I understand it HAS TO BE after the war. Per NATO’s charter: No nation can be admitted while they’re involved in an active conflict…or so I heard one of the talking heads say. 

[Tommy Callahan]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

From what I understand it HAS TO BE after the war. Per NATO’s charter: No nation can be admitted while they’re involved in an active conflict…or so I heard one of the talking heads say. 

That makes total sense as if they did, it would trigger the Collective defense and a huge escalation.

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

8 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

That makes total sense as if they did, it would trigger the Collective defense and a huge escalation.

 

 

Of course Ukraine won't be admitted to NATO while a war is ongoing. We might as well simply declare war on Russia. Not gonna happen.

But Ukraine In NATO (whether/when/under what terms) remains a huge bargaining chip to what will, someday, be a negotiated end to the fighting. May that day come sooner rather than later ...

[Tommy Callahan]

30 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Of course Ukraine won't be admitted to NATO while a war is ongoing. We might as well simply declare war on Russia. Not gonna happen.

But Ukraine In NATO (whether/when/under what terms) remains a huge bargaining chip to what will, someday, be a negotiated end to the fighting. May that day come sooner rather than later ...

From the limited reporting on the details out of the G7/NATO summit. it sounds like they would have to get back to a reasonable economic position coupled with reestablishing elections.  

 

 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, Chris farley said:

The military industrial complex supports that.

 

same with the ones invested in them.

 

 

 

This war is going to end with negotiations. 

 

IF this goes through, it's the EU telling Russia they can't just wait everyone out until everyone gets bored and Russia gets what it wants. Meaning a long war strategy is less viable. Meaning peace happens sooner.

 

But it's Europe and Military commitments. So I'll believe it when I see it, for any European country west of the Oder or the Danube to commit to it that is. 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[Joe Ferguson forever]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Is the small incursion over yet? Is this as long as it takes? Have we run out of other people’s money yet? 

winning the cold war takes time.

[Tommy Callahan]

3 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

This war is going to end with negotiations. 

 

IF this goes through, it's the EU telling Russia they can't just wait everyone out until everyone gets bored and Russia gets what it wants. Meaning a long war strategy is less viable. Meaning peace happens sooner.

 

But it's Europe and Military commitments. So I'll believe it when I see it, for any European country west of the Oder or the Danube commits to it that is. 

 

I hope it does end that way and sooner, than later.  

 

outside of all the outside influence in that country, eventually Ukraine/Russia will have to establish a border, and both seem to differ on where that is.

 

 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

Just now, Chris farley said:

I hope it does end that way and sooner, than later.  

 

outside of all the outside influence in that country, eventually Ukraine/Russia will have to establish a border, and both seem to differ on where that is.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes they certainly do. I want those disputes resolved firmly in Ukraine's favor.  

 

For instance, Russia's annexation of Ukrainian land corresponds almost exactly to the Novorossiya breakaway state outlined by the Donbas Separatists back in the 2010s.  Which incorporates all of Ukraine's coastline and its most economically viable areas.  Keeping it is a non-starter. 

[Tommy Callahan]

19 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Yes they certainly do. I want those disputes resolved firmly in Ukraine's favor.  

 

For instance, Russia's annexation of Ukrainian land corresponds almost exactly to the Novorossiya breakaway state outlined by the Donbas Separatists back in the 2010s.  Which incorporates all of Ukraine's coastline and its most economically viable areas.  Keeping it is a non-starter. 

I think you just explained the reason for the war and why its continuing.  those disputed regions are even more important now, for geopolitical and energy reasons. since the Nord pipeline was blown.  

 

You know Crimea is like 70% Russians, very small percentage Ukrainian?  

 

Demographics of Crimea - Wikipedia

 

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2020-04-03/russia-love

 

The Tatar population has been growing fast since the ban was lifted. they are not fans of Ukraine or Russia.  As neither country has been warm to Muslims.  eff, the Russians tried to get rid of them in the 1940's.  Kinda how traditional Ukrainians HATE Russia due to the Holodomor and forcing them to the front lines (cannon fodder) against the nazis.

 

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars

 

So many things at play outside the basic narrative we read in the news.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Chris farley

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, Chris farley said:

 

So many things at play outside the basic narrative we read in the news.

 

 

 

 

 

Correct. Which is probably why nobody who participates in this thread on a regular basis utilizes the basic narrative from the news.

 

Europe though, oddly enough, has gone from a bunch of profit obsessed hedonists who would sell their grandparents for a  15% annual return in their index fund...to openly debating funding the whole Ukrainian army indefinitely.

 

This is the brave new world Russia created by deciding to invade. And since Russia just threatened to attack any ship of any country docking in any Ukrainian port...

 

I don't think they're in the mood for peace unless they're convinced war will not get them what they want, at a reasonable price. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[Tommy Callahan]

26 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Correct. Which is probably why nobody who participates in this thread on a regular basis utilizes the basic narrative from the news.

 

Europe though, oddly enough, has gone from a bunch of profit obsessed hedonists who would sell their grandparents for a  15% annual return in their index fund...to openly debating funding the whole Ukrainian army indefinitely.

 

This is the brave new world Russia created by deciding to invade. And since Russia just threatened to attack any ship of any country docking in any Ukrainian port...

 

I don't think they're in the mood for peace unless they're convinced war will not get them what they want, at a reasonable price. 

Bullies tend to only learn one way. 

 

But I think it's a tough sell for Ukraine to get crimea back at this point.  Not so much outside or in the news.  But for the fact Ukrainians are only 7 % of the Crimean population. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Chris farley

[Coffeesforclosers]

7 hours ago, Chris farley said:

 

But I think it's a tough sell for Ukraine to get crimea back at this point.  Not so much outside or in the news.  But for the fact Ukrainians are only 7 % of the Crimean population. 

 

 

 

 

 

They'd need a real army and a creditable air force that can take airspace from the Russians when the Russians want to keep it.

 

Right now they have a real army and an air force that that gets its hits in when it can and lives to fight another day. 

 

 

[Dr.Sack]

36 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

They'd need a real army and a creditable air force that can take airspace from the Russians when the Russians want to keep it.

 

Right now they have a real army and an air force that that gets its hits in when it can and lives to fight another day. 

 

 

Ukraine has had 2 armies wiped out so far and right now is halfway to wiping out the 3rd. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, Dr.Sack said:

Ukraine has had 2 armies wiped out so far and right now is halfway to wiping out the 3rd. 

 

...Sure? You're the first person to bring this claim up in this thread, so where does it come from? 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

[BillsFanNC]

FD1023 from trusted FBI informant,  then in turn hidden by FBI from congress.

 

Crickets from useful idiots.

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

18 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

They'd need a real army and a creditable air force that can take airspace from the Russians when the Russians want to keep it.

 

Right now they have a real army and an air force that that gets its hits in when it can and lives to fight another day. 

 

 

Even then. how does one own an Island/Peninsula that has 90% population of the other country?  maintain it?  mass deportations?  seems like it would be on par with us peacekeeping in areas we are not liked.  I just don't see how the Jeanie gets back in the bottle with so few Ukrainians in Crimea.

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, Chris farley said:

Even then. how does one own an Island/Peninsula that has 90% population of the other country?  maintain it?  mass deportations?  seems like it would be on par with us peacekeeping in areas we are not liked.  I just don't see how the Jeanie gets back in the bottle with so few Ukrainians in Crimea.

 

 

 

Ask Quebec. Somehow, they make it work. 

[Tiberius]

21 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

Yes, it sucks that the pro-Putin side isn't better represented, is that right? 

 

Maybe if Hitler had better media support in the US during WW2 things would not have been as bad. 

 

How stupid! 

 

 

 

[TSOL]

13 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Yes, it sucks that the pro-Putin side isn't better represented, is that right? 

 

Maybe if Hitler had better media support in the US during WW2 things would not have been as bad. 

 

How stupid! 

 

 

 

 

So its the United States taxpayers responsibility to protect Africa and the middle east now? 

Interesting, tell me more...

[Tommy Callahan]

18 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Ask Quebec. Somehow, they make it work. 

Quebec is 90% people that are not Canadian? and only 7% Canadian citizens?

 

 

3 hours ago, TSOL said:

 

So its the United States taxpayers responsibility to protect Africa and the middle east now? 

Interesting, tell me more...

I find it fascinating a Canadian has so many hard ideals about American politics and foreign policy.

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 hours ago, TSOL said:

 

So its the United States taxpayers responsibility to protect Africa and the middle east now? 

Interesting, tell me more...

Although there's a lot of hoopla and virtue signalling from western sources worrying about those poor Africans and Middle Easterners almost all the grain shipments out of Ukraine were going to Europe.  So its not like Africa/ME are suddenly being deprived of grain with the agreement ending.  They were already getting screwed.  

[Tiberius]

3 hours ago, TSOL said:

 

So its the United States taxpayers responsibility to protect Africa and the middle east now? 

Interesting, tell me more...

What if I say yes? 

 

What if I say no? 

19 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Although there's a lot of hoopla and virtue signalling from western sources worrying about those poor Africans and Middle Easterners almost all the grain shipments out of Ukraine were going to Europe.  So its not like Africa/ME are suddenly being deprived of grain with the agreement ending.  They were already getting screwed.  

Do you understand how supply and demand works? 

22 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Although there's a lot of hoopla and virtue signalling from western sources worrying about those poor Africans and Middle Easterners almost all the grain shipments out of Ukraine were going to Europe.  So its not like Africa/ME are suddenly being deprived of grain with the agreement ending.  They were already getting screwed.  

Also, "western sources"? You speak like a Kremlin clown or Baghdad Bob

[JDHillFan]

https://www.politico.eu/article/ben-cohen-ukraine-war-russia-blames-america-ben-and-jerrys/

 

When Russian President Vladimir Putin sent tanks rolling on Kyiv, Cohen didn’t focus his ire on the Kremlin; a group he funds published a full-page ad in the New York Times blaming the act of aggression on “deliberate provocations” by the U.S. and NATO.

 

I don’t care that Cohen is no longer involved with the company. Both he and B&J’s hate democracy and should move to Russia! I will help them pack. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Do you understand how supply and demand works?

Do you?  I guess you're a ***** expert at everything.  I'm expecting to see you on Jeopardy next week.

[Tiberius]

22 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Do you?  I guess you're a ***** expert at everything.  I'm expecting to see you on Jeopardy next week.

So that's a no, then. 

[SoCal Deek]

How’s the war going everyone? Are we done yet? Did we reach as long as it was going to take? 

[L Ron Burgundy]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

How’s the war going everyone? Are we done yet? Did we reach as long as it was going to take? 

Yeah its done.  Putin slipped on a banana peel.  Those UK spies are top notch.  

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, L Ron Burgundy said:

Yeah its done.  Putin slipped on a banana peel.  Those UK spies are top notch.  

Excellent! I’ve been waiting to push the Easy Button.

 

Close thread. 

[GaryPinC]

Interesting development to me today:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-arrests-a-hard-line-nationalist-who-accused-putin-of-weakness-in-ukraine/ar-AA1eaxwR?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=3d662847ac694b4db70e0718ff6a3908&ei=35

 

Igor Girkin/Strelkov played a leadership role for Russia in Donetsk in 2014 and has ties to the military and current conflict in Ukraine.  He's been hugely critical of Russian leadership, including Putin, for some time now.  He also doesn't like and is critical of Prigozhin and Wagner.

 

What's interesting to me is why is Girkin arrested while Prigozhin is still free and mouthing off?

 

I've never fully believed the health/cancer rumors about Putin but at this point I wonder if there is some truth to them and Prigozhin is tabbed to soon be his successor?  Perhaps just biding time in Belarus until Putin's gone?  It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me otherwise.

 

Thoughts?

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, GaryPinC said:

Interesting development to me today:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-arrests-a-hard-line-nationalist-who-accused-putin-of-weakness-in-ukraine/ar-AA1eaxwR?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=3d662847ac694b4db70e0718ff6a3908&ei=35

 

Igor Girkin/Strelkov played a leadership role for Russia in Donetsk in 2014 and has ties to the military and current conflict in Ukraine.  He's been hugely critical of Russian leadership, including Putin, for some time now.  He also doesn't like and is critical of Prigozhin and Wagner.

 

What's interesting to me is why is Girkin arrested while Prigozhin is still free and mouthing off?

 

I've never fully believed the health/cancer rumors about Putin but at this point I wonder if there is some truth to them and Prigozhin is tabbed to soon be his successor?  Perhaps just biding time in Belarus until Putin's gone?  It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me otherwise.

 

Thoughts?

A lot is going on behind the scenes now.  Ukraines intelligence ministry said there's another coup or revolt going on, a newer one.  Who knows though,  ton of misinformation out there.  Prigozhin did weaken Putin but whether anything will come of it ....

[Coffeesforclosers]

3 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Interesting development to me today:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-arrests-a-hard-line-nationalist-who-accused-putin-of-weakness-in-ukraine/ar-AA1eaxwR?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=3d662847ac694b4db70e0718ff6a3908&ei=35

 

Igor Girkin/Strelkov played a leadership role for Russia in Donetsk in 2014 and has ties to the military and current conflict in Ukraine.  He's been hugely critical of Russian leadership, including Putin, for some time now.  He also doesn't like and is critical of Prigozhin and Wagner.

 

What's interesting to me is why is Girkin arrested while Prigozhin is still free and mouthing off?

 

I've never fully believed the health/cancer rumors about Putin but at this point I wonder if there is some truth to them and Prigozhin is tabbed to soon be his successor?  Perhaps just biding time in Belarus until Putin's gone?  It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me otherwise.

 

Thoughts?

 

It's a rough puzzle to put together. Surovikin's disappeared, a raft of of very competent VDV officers, starting with Mikhail Teplinsky, are on the chopping block supposedly.

 

Now LPR/DNR Ultra-Nationalists are being scooped up and black bagged.

 

However, Shoigu and Gerasimov are untouched.

 

So, I agree, it looks like Prigozhin finagled his way into Putin's inner circle. I just wonder what leverage he has over Putin that's keeping him alive. I still think it's to secure Wagner's loyalty, so they can be used for an attritional offensive against the truly massive defensive lines between Belarus and Kyiv and win the war* but we'll see. 

 

 

 

 

*Maybe, possibly, it beats years more attritional war. Russia doesn't have the bottomless manpower reserves the USSR/WarPact did. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

How’s the war going everyone? Are we done yet? Did we reach as long as it was going to take? 

Wars generally take a little while, especially whenever they are Dug in and as much as they are even whenever this started the people in the know, said that if it didn’t end right away, it was going to take years meaning if Russia didn’t overwhelm them in the beginning, it was gonna be protracted war

I have no problem with funding them as long as
 

We don’t put our own troops on the ground I’m not talking about people to train them how to use weapons I’m talking about actual troops

 

And

 

We keep giving them aid, but having accountability of how that aid is being spent, and where it’s going

 

The military contractors are getting fat and rich off of this

Edited July 21, 2023 by John from Riverside

[SoCal Deek]

41 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Wars generally take a little while, especially whenever they are Dug in and as much as they are even whenever this started the people in the know, said that if it didn’t end right away, it was going to take years meaning if Russia didn’t overwhelm them in the beginning, it was gonna be protracted war

I have no problem with funding them as long as
 

We don’t put our own troops on the ground I’m not talking about people to train them how to use weapons I’m talking about actual troops

 

And

 

We keep giving them aid, but having accountability of how that aid is being spent, and where it’s going

 

The military contractors are getting fat and rich off of this

So in other words….as long as it takes? 

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So in other words….as long as it takes? 

Maybe?

 

as someone who has participated in it, I think wars are bad

 

I think part of the agreement to send aid should also be legitimate attempts at peace talks although I don’t know if Putin is really into that

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by John from Riverside

[SoCal Deek]

10 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Maybe?

 

as someone who has participated in it, I think wars are bad

 

I think part of the agreement to send aid should also be legitimate attempts at peace talks although I don’t know if Putin is really into that

 

 

 

Thanks for your service, but with all due respect we should only fight wars to win them….and fast 

[John from Riverside]

9 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Thanks for your service, but with all due respect we should only fight wars to win them….and fast 

But we’re not fighting it Therefore have only so much control of it

I really don’t want another Afghanistan, which is what you get whenever you fight wars on foreign soil

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

But we’re not fighting it Therefore have only so much control of it

I really don’t want another Afghanistan, which is what you get whenever you fight wars on foreign soil

 

 

So we’re just paying for other people to get killed. Wonderful 

[Coffeesforclosers]

32 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

So we’re just paying for other people to get killed. Wonderful 

 

What an enlightened position! Have you considered writing a strongly worded post on a message board?