The Frankish Reich Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: Whatever happened to walking and chewing gum at the same time? You seem to suggest is that you’d only start negotiating once Russian forces are pushed backed to the border at the time this all started. If that’s the case, there’s no point in negotiating. Not "pushed back to the border." More like "once Putin understands that there will be no such thing as the victory he imagined he'd win in Ukraine." At that point, the concept of a negotiated withdrawal becomes possible. A preemptive surrender just emboldens him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 8 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Not "pushed back to the border." More like "once Putin understands that there will be no such thing as the victory he imagined he'd win in Ukraine." At that point, the concept of a negotiated withdrawal becomes possible. A preemptive surrender just emboldens him. I’m not understanding. Surrender? I think Putin already knows this didn’t go as he’d planned. You don’t think so? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m not understanding. Surrender? I think Putin already knows this didn’t go as he’d planned. You don’t think so? I think he's playing a waiting game, hoping that the resolve of the West (particularly of the USA) wanes. That's rational, since Trump, DeSantis, and others have suggested that they'd cut off funding for Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 11 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: I think he's playing a waiting game, hoping that the resolve of the West (particularly of the USA) wanes. That's rational, since Trump, DeSantis, and others have suggested that they'd cut off funding for Ukraine. Maybe….but the ‘as long as it takes’ strategy appears to be a total failure as well. Unless a WWI-like stalemate is the desired outcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Maybe….but the ‘as long as it takes’ strategy appears to be a total failure as well. See, I look at the example of the Vietnamese vs. us, the Afghanis vs. the USSR, the Taliban vs. us, and I think a smaller power that's willing to take its lumps and not lose stands a really good chance of winning. Especially against a larger power that has a ton of other fish that it wants to fry, but can't...because it's stuck in a forever war it didn't need to start, and is too dumb to admit it's lost... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 42 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: See, I look at the example of the Vietnamese vs. us, the Afghanis vs. the USSR, the Taliban vs. us, and I think a smaller power that's willing to take its lumps and not lose stands a really good chance of winning. Especially against a larger power that has a ton of other fish that it wants to fry, but can't...because it's stuck in a forever war it didn't need to start, and is too dumb to admit it's lost... This winning and losing is a bunch of nonsense when you’re NEGOTIATING a cease fire. For a negotiation to work everyone has to be able save some face. The tricky part here is to come up with a solution that doesn’t feel like a total failure to one side or the other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Just now, SoCal Deek said: This winning and losing is a bunch of nonsense when you’re NEGOTIATING a cease fire. For a negotiation to work everyone has to be able save some face. The tricky part here is to come up with a solution that doesn’t feel like a total failure to one side or the other. I agree, but that doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: I agree, but that doesn't matter. Thanks…but what doesn’t matter? As with all military conflicts since WW2 this has gone on long enough and needs to end. The cost inflicted in time, lives and treasure has long since passed the point of being utterly ridiculous. If this was a schoolyard brawl, the adults would’ve stepped in and separated the two kids long ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: Thanks…but what doesn’t matter? As with all military conflicts since WW2 this has gone on long enough and needs to end. The cost inflicted in time, lives and treasure has long since passed the point of being utterly ridiculous. If this was a schoolyard brawl, the adults would’ve stepped in and separated the two kids long ago. You're ignoring that both sides want to win, and have plans to win that they think are working. So unless you want pick a winner... waiting them out is the only answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 Just now, Coffeesforclosers said: You're ignoring that both sides want to win, and have plans to win that they think are working. So unless you want pick a winner... waiting them out is the only answer. Ugh! There’s never been a negotiation in ANY disagreement that both sides didn’t want to win. That’s why it’s called negotiating! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Ugh! There’s never been a negotiation in ANY disagreement that both sides didn’t want to win. That’s why it’s called negotiating! Sure there was. When one side has already won. You're thinking like a businessman. Not a historian. The Confederate States of America didn't get a chance to negotiate. Nazi Germany didn't get a chance to negotiate. See my point? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Sure there was. When one side has already won. You're thinking like a businessman. Not a historian. The Confederate States of America didn't get a chance to negotiate. Nazi Germany didn't get a chance to negotiate. See my point? Yes…I see your point. But those are instances when surrender were the ‘terms’ of the negotiation. That’s not the point we’re at, and Russia isn’t going to cease to exist in this case. You have to negotiate terms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Yes…I see your point. But those are instances when surrender were the ‘terms’ of the negotiation. That’s not the point we’re at, and Russia isn’t going to cease to exist in this case. You have to negotiate terms. I agree. But like I've said, as long as nobody wants to negotiate because they think they're winning...then you have to pick a winner. Or a loser. Then force them to settle. So, hypothetically, what credible threats are we prepared to make for peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Share Posted August 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: I agree. But like I've said, as long as nobody wants to negotiate because they think they're winning...then you have to pick a winner. Or a loser. Then force them to settle. So, hypothetically, what credible threats are we prepared to make for peace? We? Unfortunately, the United States probably can’t be all that involved in the negotiations. We’re definitely not a disinterested party. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 not going to help Putins power hold https://www.the-sun.com/news/8887903/moscow-drone-siege-airports-putin/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted August 22, 2023 Share Posted August 22, 2023 11 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: not going to help Putins power hold https://www.the-sun.com/news/8887903/moscow-drone-siege-airports-putin/ Last time something similar happened. Putin responded with hypersonic and escalated to attacking the Kiev government installations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 23, 2023 Author Share Posted August 23, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 ^^^^^^^^^^ I would think twice about trusting anything from that site or Stsiapan Putsila Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 NO WAY 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 Took a little longer than expected. Creative though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yall Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 8 billion people saw that coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 (edited) at this point this is all based on reporting by Russia’s state news agency TASS. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ten-killed-private-jet-crash-north-moscow-tass-2023-08-23/ Edited August 23, 2023 by Chris farley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherpa Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 So is there a "compare and contrast" documentary coming out comparing the Russian moon crash with this? Good couple days for gravity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillStime Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 Now being reported Russian air defenses shot it down. Wagner Chief Prigozhin Reported Dead After Russian Forces Shoot Down Plane (newsweek.com) 2 minutes ago, BillStime said: except the pilots and staff that were collateral 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Chris farley said: Now being reported Russian air defenses shot it down. Wagner Chief Prigozhin Reported Dead After Russian Forces Shoot Down Plane (newsweek.com) except the pilots and staff that were collateral Well that's refreshingly honest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 Ralph Waldo Emerson — 'When you strike at a king, you must kill him.' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Sack Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 Ukraine running out of 30 year old US cluster bombs? Russians heading to “Kyiv” soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 Who gets more aid? Ukraine or Hawaii? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetermansRedemption Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 1 hour ago, aristocrat said: Who gets more aid? Ukraine or Hawaii? If Biden gets his way, Ukraine gets more than double. Sad but true Ukraine went from a corrupt democracy that wasn't allowed to join NATO to the beacon of democracy overnight. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 24, 2023 Author Share Posted August 24, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 9 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said: If Biden gets his way, Ukraine gets more than double. Sad but true Ukraine went from a corrupt democracy that wasn't allowed to join NATO to the beacon of democracy overnight. We should be spending that money to preserve democracy at home. Seven million illegals since Joke took over. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 24, 2023 Author Share Posted August 24, 2023 2 hours ago, Doc said: We should be spending that money to preserve democracy at home. Seven million illegals since Joke took over. Immigrants, like yours and mine ancestors, have been flocking to our shores since before the Revolution. Same as it ever was 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSOL Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 (edited) 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: Immigrants, like yours and mine ancestors, have been flocking to our shores since before the Revolution. Same as it ever was My grandfather's had to fight in a war to become citizens Maybe some of them could do a tour in Ukraine first? Edited August 24, 2023 by TSOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 Just now, Tiberius said: Immigrants, like yours and mine ancestors, have been flocking to our shores since before the Revolution. Same as it ever was though port of calls, and with many turned away as well. you Canadians have very strong immigration laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 24, 2023 Author Share Posted August 24, 2023 1 minute ago, TSOL said: My grandfather's had to fight in a war to become citizens Maybe some of them could do a your in Ukraine first? Most did not, they just came here, period 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Callahan Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Most did not, they just came here, period https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/goldman-immigration-and-deportation-ellis-island/ "The New World's 'Golden Door' was, for some, a place of protracted anguish. While the immigration service efficiently channeled millions through Ellis Island's Main Building, countless others awaited their fates in the hospital and infectious disease wards on the south side of the island. Some recuperated sufficiently to enter America, but others were returned to their homelands." "Once registered, immigrants were free to enter the New World and start their new lives. But if they were sick, they spent days, weeks, months even, in a warren of rooms. Some, like the tuberculosis ward, were open to the sea, where a gentle New York harbor breeze cleansed their lungs, improving their chances. Other rooms were solitary, forlorn places where the illness itself decided when to leave or stay. Most patients in the hospital or Contagious Disease Ward recovered, but some were not so lucky. More than 120,000 immigrants were sent back to their countries of origin, and during the island's half-century of operation more than 3,500 immigrants died there." Ellis Island waylaid certain arrivals, including those likely to become public charges, such as unescorted women and children. Women could not leave Ellis Island with a man not related to them. Other detainees included stowaways, alien seamen, anarchists, Bolsheviks, criminals and those judged to be "immoral." Approximately 20 percent of immigrants inspected at Ellis Island were temporarily detained, half for health reasons and half for legal reasons They screened them, turned away the bad. put the sick on boats in the harbor. And There was not a monetary factor like our asylum package is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Immigrants, like yours and mine ancestors, have been flocking to our shores since before the Revolution. Same as it ever was Yup. And they did it legally. My mom was a legal immigrant and is a Dem, and is pissed about all the illegals streaming across the border. Edited August 24, 2023 by Doc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted August 24, 2023 Author Share Posted August 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, Doc said: Yup. And they did it legally. My mom was a legal immigrant and is a Dem, and is pissed about all the illegals streaming across the border. Why she pissed? They will turn into great Americans just like the hated Irish, German and Polish immigrants did 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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