Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[TSOL]

4 minutes ago, ALF said:

Belarus would use nuclear weapons in the event of ‘aggression,’ Lukashenko says

He also warned that if provoked – especially by neighboring NATO countries like Poland, Lithuania and Latvia – Belarus would “immediately respond with everything we have,” including nuclear weapons.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/18/europe/lukashenko-belarus-nuclear-weapons-russia-crimea-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Sounds like another Kim Jong Un , thanks Russia

 

 

They are going to use one at some point 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 hour ago, ALF said:

Belarus would use nuclear weapons in the event of ‘aggression,’ Lukashenko says

He also warned that if provoked – especially by neighboring NATO countries like Poland, Lithuania and Latvia – Belarus would “immediately respond with everything we have,” including nuclear weapons.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/18/europe/lukashenko-belarus-nuclear-weapons-russia-crimea-intl-hnk/index.html

 

Sounds like another Kim Jong Un , thanks Russia

 

Sad, sad grandstanding from Belarus. But since they're practically a Russian colony at this point, it makes sense that they yip whenever master tugs their leash. 

[TSOL]

Why did we get involved inbetween these two scumbag nations 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/videos-russia-touts-captured-western-weapons-ukraine-theme-park-2023-8

[B-Man]

 

 

Must be a "Putin stooge".  Right ?

 

 

 

.

[SoCal Deek]

Is the small incursion over yet? Asking for a close friend. 

[TSOL]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-missile-strike-ukraine-city-chernihiv-kills-people-zelenskiy-says-2023-08-19/

 

Russia is absolutely brutalizing them, Ukraine really stands no chance without foreign forces putting boots on the ground. 

 

Russia is too much bigger and has absolutely no regard for human life in this war. They will.kill every man woman and child if they have to. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

20 minutes ago, TSOL said:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-missile-strike-ukraine-city-chernihiv-kills-people-zelenskiy-says-2023-08-19/

 

Russia is absolutely brutalizing them, Ukraine really stands no chance without foreign forces putting boots on the ground. 

 

Russia is too much bigger and has absolutely no regard for human life in this war. They will.kill every man woman and child if they have to. 

 

You said, 11 hours ago, that they're both scumbag countries. Why do you care what happens to one, or the other? 

[TSOL]

1 minute ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

You said, 11 hours ago, that they're both scumbag countries. Why do you care what happens to one, or the other? 

 

 

Ukraine is impossibly corrupt, russia is just much larger than them. It's a cat and mouse game. 

[Coffeesforclosers]

1 minute ago, TSOL said:

 

 

Ukraine is impossibly corrupt, russia is just much larger than them. It's a cat and mouse game. 

 

Fair enough.  Just wanted to know where you're coming from. 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[TSOL]

Just now, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Fair enough.

 

 

 

 

Ukraine stands no chance no matter how many weapons they are given. The only way they win is with numbers, of men. 

[Tommy Callahan]

8 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

You said, 11 hours ago, that they're both scumbag countries. Why do you care what happens to one, or the other? 

Peace is good for the people that live in those two crap governments. 

[TSOL]

6 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Fair enough.  Just wanted to know where you're coming from. 

 

 

 

Where I'm coming from is that war is brutal should be avoided at all costs but when you have ignorant nations with no respect for human life you're basically screwed. 

 

I don't know that our role in this war is exactly noble either. We have our ulterior motives in this war 

[Coffeesforclosers]

5 minutes ago, TSOL said:

 

 

Ukraine stands no chance no matter how many weapons they are given. The only way they win is with numbers, of men. 

 

Ok. I'm not going to debate the point that you're making if that's what you're looking for. 

 

But it is interesting to me to see why people think what they think. 

Just now, TSOL said:

 

 

Where I'm coming from is that war is brutal should be avoided at all costs but when you have ignorant nations with no respect for human life you're basically screwed. 

 

I agree.

 

Just now, TSOL said:

 

I don't know that our role in this war is exactly noble either. We have our ulterior motives in this war 

 

Yup. But if you're looking for a morally pure country to live in... well nobody sells real estate in space. 

6 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

Peace is good for the people that live in those two crap governments. 

 It absolutely is. 

[sherpa]

3 hours ago, TSOL said:

 

 

Ukraine stands no chance no matter how many weapons they are given. The only way they win is with numbers, of men. 

 

They don't, unless they achieve air superiority, and there is no current path to that now.

The F-16 is not going to provide that. It will take years for that to become a change maker.

 

This thing is a body grinding stalemate.

The oversold counter offensive isn't going that well, and it takes multiples more munitions to be offensive rather than defensive.

[TSOL]

12 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

They don't, unless they achieve air superiority, and there is no current path to that now.

The F-16 is not going to provide that. It will take years for that to become a change maker.

 

This thing is a body grinding stalemate.

The oversold counter offensive isn't going that well, and it takes multiples more munitions to be offensive rather than defensive.

 

 

That was my point, I just don't see what strategic end our government sees coming from the international welfare program we are running over there, that isn't going to cut it. Russia is just going to wait it out terrorizing that nation until the west either gives in or sends troops 

 

And if that was to happen Russia is just chomping at the bit to drop a nuke on that nation. Which is what they will do if NATO ever was to send troops 

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 hours ago, TSOL said:

 

 

That was my point, I just don't see what strategic end our government sees coming from the international welfare program we are running over there, that isn't going to cut it. Russia is just going to wait it out terrorizing that nation until the west either gives in or sends troops 

 

And if that was to happen Russia is just chomping at the bit to drop a nuke on that nation. Which is what they will do if NATO ever was to send troops 

The stated strategic objective is to "do whatever it takes" to support democracy.

 

Now that we've read the required public service announcement.

 

Does it need to be anything more than a target of opportunity chance to mess with Russia and disrupt their objective to spread their influence in Europe, ME, Asia, and Africa? It's just not a real good plan from the folks in Washington from an execution perspective.

 

 

 

 

[TSOL]

22 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The stated strategic objective is to "do whatever it takes" to support democracy.

 

Now that we've read the required public service announcement.

 

Does it need to be anything more than a target of opportunity chance to mess with Russia and disrupt their objective to spread their influence in Europe, ME, Asia, and Africa? It's just not a real good plan from the folks in Washington from an execution perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Europe does certainly need a buffer from Russia, but Europe may need to face the fact that we need to concede Ukraine or send NATO troops. Which in my opinion is a recipe for disaster 

 

Sh*ts getting real in that conflict. Russia is not going to pack up and go home because we sent 30 M1A1 Abrams 

[BillsFanNC]

 

[ALF]

 War criminal Putin has to be stopped period.

 

Appeasement did not work with Hitler it won't work with Putin.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by ALF

[Tiberius]

On 8/19/2023 at 6:32 PM, All_Pro_Bills said:

The stated strategic objective is to "do whatever it takes" to support democracy.

 

Now that we've read the required public service announcement.

 

Does it need to be anything more than a target of opportunity chance to mess with Russia and disrupt their objective to spread their influence in Europe, ME, Asia, and Africa? It's just not a real good plan from the folks in Washington from an execution perspective.

 

 

 

 

Target of opportunity? Ummm...how about a reaction against Russian aggression? 

 

You always make it seem like the free nations are to blame. Why is that? Comrade? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Target of opportunity? Ummm...how about a reaction against Russian aggression? 

 

You always make it seem like the free nations are to blame. Why is that? Comrade? 

You have a simplistic "white hat" vs. "black hat" view of how the world works which inhibits your ability to see there are no "good guys".  The only truth that exists is "perspective".

Edited August 21, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[SoCal Deek]

16 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You have a simplistic "white hat" vs. "black hat" view of how the world works which inhibits your ability to see there are no "good guys". 
 

The only truth that exists is "perspective".

I really like that last line. I may have to steal it. 👍

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

I really like that last line. I may have to steal it. 👍

Feel free to use it!    

 

 

[Tiberius]

22 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

You have a simplistic "white hat" vs. "black hat" view of how the world works which inhibits your ability to see there are no "good guys".  The only truth that exists is "perspective".

Putin is a really, really bad guy, don't you agree? 

 

So yes, Biden is wearing a white hat in helping them. 

 

You seem to want to make it the other way around, comrade. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Putin is a really, really bad guy, don't you agree? 

 

So yes, Biden is wearing a white hat in helping them. 

 

You seem to want to make it the other way around, comrade. 

Two black hats. 

[SoCal Deek]

4 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Two black hats. 

The white hat will be worn by someone who puts an end to this ridiculously expensive border squabble. So far….the world is still waiting for that horse to ride in. 

[Tiberius]

14 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I really like that last line. I may have to steal it. 👍

Hope you are not getting flooded out 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Tiberius said:

Hope you are not getting flooded out 

Thanks Tibs! It rained all day here yesterday. What most people don’t realize is that Southern California gets literally ZERO rain at all for the months of July through October. So yesterday’s total was as much as we’d see in one of our wettest ‘winter’ months….all in one day. To those in WNY, you’d just call it a normal Tuesday. 😉

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Two black hats. 

It's bad for us to help Ukraine fight off Russian aggresion, eh comrade? 

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Thanks Tibs! It rained all day here yesterday. What most people don’t realize is that Southern California gets literally ZERO rain at all for the months of July through October. So yesterday’s total was as much as we’d see in one of our wettest ‘winter’ months….all in one day. To those in WNY, you’d just call it a normal Tuesday. 😉

It's been absolutely perfect here last few days, but I saw that your rain is coming at us for next weekend 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

Wow, openly saying if we don't appease Putin then Putin wins

 

Heads Putin win, tails Ukraine loses, in this clowns wishes

 

There is some growing worry that if Putin is distracted by his war he won't be able to do all he can for Trump 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Wow, openly saying if we don't appease Putin then Putin wins

 

Heads Putin win, tails Ukraine loses, in this clowns wishes

 

There is some growing worry that if Putin is distracted by his war he won't be able to do all he can for Trump 

Let me see if I understand you here….you believe that Putin himself is responsible for working the keyboards during the ‘election tampering’ hoax? Now I think I’ve heard it all! 😂😂😂

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Let me see if I understand you here….you believe that Putin himself is responsible for working the keyboards during the ‘election tampering’ hoax? Now I think I’ve heard it all! 😂😂😂

He's not shooting guns in Ukraine himself, but resposible for that. 

 

Do you get the point? 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

He's not shooting guns in Ukraine himself, but resposible for that. 

 

Do you get the point? 

No…I really don’t get the point. And apparently neither do you. Go back a re-read your post. 

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

No…I really don’t get the point. And apparently neither do you. Go back a re-read your post. 

I read it, and you do not understand 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

I read it, and you do not understand 

Exactly! Nobody understands your posts on this topic. 😉

[The Frankish Reich]

40 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Wow, openly saying if we don't appease Putin then Putin wins

 

Heads Putin win, tails Ukraine loses, in this clowns wishes

 

That's the new "Republicans" for you. 

[The Frankish Reich]

7 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

There goes the family's Christmas in Minsk dream vacation.

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

That's the new "Republicans" for you. 

Its likely that Russia isn't going to be dislodged from their positions inside Ukraine short of NATO countries sending in combat troops to push them out.  Few are advocating for that and certainly nobody in a decision making capacity at this time.  That's not "appeasement", that's a realistic assessment of the situation.  We can debate when it started, who started what, and who did what, but that's not going to change the facts and conditions on the ground as of today.  If we want to say Putin is 100% to blame it doesn't change the current dilemma faced by the Ukrainian forces.  Its about as important at this point as arguing 1st class dinner table etiquette on the deck of the Titanic as the ship's about to go under.     

 

I know there's clamoring for providing F-16's ASAP but apparently it takes an extended period of training to come up to speed on the aircraft.  Maybe the people expecting them to be flying sorties already watched Independence Day a few times and saw how an alcoholic crop dusting single prop pilot came up to speed on an advanced fighter jet (I think they might have been mostly F-15's and some F-16's) in a couple hours of classroom instruction and are wondering why its taking so long? 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Its likely that Russia isn't going to be dislodged from their positions inside Ukraine short of NATO countries sending in combat troops to push them out.  Few are advocating for that and certainly nobody in a decision making capacity at this time.  That's not "appeasement", that's a realistic assessment of the situation.  We can debate when it started, who started what, and who did what, but that's not going to change the facts and conditions on the ground as of today.  If we want to say Putin is 100% to blame it doesn't change the current dilemma faced by the Ukrainian forces.  Its about as important at this point as arguing 1st class dinner table etiquette on the deck of the Titanic as the ship's about to go under.     

 

I know there's clamoring for providing F-16's ASAP but apparently it takes an extended period of training to come up to speed on the aircraft.  Maybe the people expecting them to be flying sorties already watched Independence Day a few times and saw how an alcoholic crop dusting single prop pilot came up to speed on an advanced fighter jet (I think they might have been mostly F-15's and some F-16's) in a couple hours of classroom instruction and are wondering why its taking so long? 

 

 

Remember Peace through Power?

You don't push Putin toward an acceptable negotiated settlement by signaling that you've lost your will to fight back.

Short of Putin being ousted in some kind of coup (an extremely unlikely event), this will end with some kind of negotiated withdrawal. It doesn't have to end with a Ukrainian surrender, which is essentially what a lack of allied support would result in.

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Remember Peace through Power?

You don't push Putin toward an acceptable negotiated settlement by signaling that you've lost your will to fight back.

Short of Putin being ousted in some kind of coup (an extremely unlikely event), this will end with some kind of negotiated withdrawal. It doesn't have to end with a Ukrainian surrender, which is essentially what a lack of allied support would result in.

Whatever happened to walking and chewing gum at the same time? You seem to suggest is that you’d only start negotiating once Russian forces are pushed backed to the border at the time this all started. If that’s the case, there’s no point in negotiating.