I don't get it...why doesn't Daboll move the pocket more with Allen especially with quick middle pressure occurring so frequently

[Big Turk]

 I simply don't understand with the pass blocking issues they have had why Daboll hasn't started moving the pocket more with Allen.  This would help with several things:

 

1) It would get Allen away from the immediate middle pressure that seems to be happening so much since Ford gets smoked more often than not

2) It would cause the DLine to have to chase Allen all over the field which would wear on them as the game wore on and tire them out, limiting their effectiveness as time went on from being tired.

3) This might also open up holes in the run game since a tired DLine would be less effective getting off blocks and tackling, leading to more arm tackles and poor technique.

4) It would allow Allen and his WR's more creativity in getting open downfield, and allow for misdirection throwbacks that could result in HUGE plays since the flow would be taking all the defenders towards the play side

5) It would force defenders to make a choice between defending Allen running the ball versus covering their man, or at least give them hesitation as to what they should do that would allow Allen to have an advantage where either they don't cover his rushing lane and he gets cheap yards or they leave a man uncovered downfield...it would also be something new the Bills are doing regularly so the tape on it wouldn't be out immediately for teams to have a good gameplan against it

 

Daboll is supposed to innovative, but having your mobile QB get pressured up the middle quickly which negates his mobility and play making ability doesn't seem to make much sense from a design standpoint...

Edited November 26, 2021 by Big Turk

[Jerome007]

Yes but it has to be drilled, practiced. 

 

This game, as in the Jets game, we saw more FB time, an extra blocker, etc. And in this Saints game the Bills used way more short passes, sweeps, even one 3 "backs" set. And... it worked. Very few long passes but they moved the ball at will. If they can mix back the long plays more as well, this is gold. Josh was still being forced to be a moving pocket way too often though. But anything that helps the OL, do it! 

[Rochesterfan]

12 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 I simply don't understand with the pass blocking issues they have had why Daboll hasn't started moving the pocket more with Allen.  This would help with several things:

 

1) It would get Allen away from the immediate middle pressure that seems to be happening so much since Ford gets smoked more often than not

2) It would cause the DLine to have to chase Allen all over the field which would wear on them as the game wore on and tire them out, limiting their effectiveness as time went on from being tired.

3) This might also open up holes in the run game since a tired DLine would be less effective getting off blocks and tackling, leading to more arm tackles and poor technique.

4) It would allow Allen and his WR's more creativity in getting open downfield, and allow for misdirection throwbacks that could result in HUGE plays since the flow would be taking all the defenders towards the play side

5) It would force defenders to make a choice between defending Allen running the ball versus covering their man, or at least give them hesitation as to what they should do that would allow Allen to have an advantage where either they don't cover his rushing lane and he gets cheap yards or they leave a man uncovered downfield...it would also be something new the Bills are doing regularly so the tape on it wouldn't be out immediately for teams to have a good gameplan against it

 

Daboll is supposed to innovative, but having your mobile QB get pressured up the middle quickly which negates his mobility and play making ability doesn't seem to make much sense from a design standpoint...

 

I think mostly because teams are not rushing with their DEs - they are having them go up field to contain JA in the pocket.  Therefore many times you would roll Josh right into an oncoming DE.

 

Rollouts work best if the tackle can hook a DE giving space, but the times they have move Josh out - he is forced directly into guys not rushing, but playing contain.  - Similar to how the Bills have played Lamar.  Pass Rush from the outside to contain get pressure from the middle.

 

Defenses have even gotten particular in allowing space for Josh to escape, but mostly to his left because they can control better where he throws when he is moving that way.

 

If you watch the game there are times he tries to roll out and the DE or OLB is waiting for him and forces him backwards and away from the LOS.  It has moved Josh into areas where he is unprotected and he has rushed throws or made plays where he didn’t get the ball back to the LOS and got flagged for intentional grounding.

 

Your idea sounds great in theory, but is easily thwarted by a DE playing contain - which brings Josh right into the pass rush.  
 

Also as we have seen - anytime the QB or RB is moving side to side and the DL disengages to pursue - that is when the majority of holding calls occur.  They see the player move and then call the hands outside the frame.  
 

Those would be the first two reasons - I am sure their are more.  It works on occasion, but as a long term attack plan - I think it opens up issues.

 

 

 

[ticketssince61]

... and it limits your passing options to only half the field. 

 

But, I agree Daboll has to be more creative

[Big Turk]

3 minutes ago, ticketssince61 said:

... and it limits your passing options to only half the field. 

 

But, I agree Daboll has to be more creative

 

With Allen's arm?  I wouldn't say that...they can use that thought process against teams

11 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I think mostly because teams are not rushing with their DEs - they are having them go up field to contain JA in the pocket.  Therefore many times you would roll Josh right into an oncoming DE.

 

Rollouts work best if the tackle can hook a DE giving space, but the times they have move Josh out - he is forced directly into guys not rushing, but playing contain.  - Similar to how the Bills have played Lamar.  Pass Rush from the outside to contain get pressure from the middle.

 

Defenses have even gotten particular in allowing space for Josh to escape, but mostly to his left because they can control better where he throws when he is moving that way.

 

If you watch the game there are times he tries to roll out and the DE or OLB is waiting for him and forces him backwards and away from the LOS.  It has moved Josh into areas where he is unprotected and he has rushed throws or made plays where he didn’t get the ball back to the LOS and got flagged for intentional grounding.

 

Your idea sounds great in theory, but is easily thwarted by a DE playing contain - which brings Josh right into the pass rush.  
 

Also as we have seen - anytime the QB or RB is moving side to side and the DL disengages to pursue - that is when the majority of holding calls occur.  They see the player move and then call the hands outside the frame.  
 

Those would be the first two reasons - I am sure their are more.  It works on occasion, but as a long term attack plan - I think it opens up issues.

 

 

 

 

There are ways to combat that tho as well from an offensive line blocking standpoint...it's not like the Bills couldn't come up with a plan to still make that work

[First Round Bust]

agree some designed rollouts would help diversify the O,of esp if we can catch the D off-guard, so its got to be the right call at the right time otherwise you are allowing the D to dictate your play call and you minimize the the field other than Josh throwing across his body and the field.

 

If they blitz from the edge, the extra rushers pretty much blow the rollout play up so its back to the right call at the right time - part of exection

Edited November 26, 2021 by First Round Bust

[78thealltimegreat]

I continue to be amazed at how confused defenses are when Josh is under center…I’m guessing Josh just says he feels more comfortable back in shotgun as a reason 

[clayboy54]

44 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 I simply don't understand with the pass blocking issues they have had why Daboll hasn't started moving the pocket more with Allen.

"Pocket? Don't talk about—pocket! You kidding me? Pocket? I just hope we can block somebody, anybody!”

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

I continue to be amazed at how confused defenses are when Josh is under center…I’m guessing Josh just says he feels more comfortable back in shotgun as a reason 

 

They did a study that showed QBs are more effective from the shotgun across the board pretty much and said it likely is because it gives them the ability to survey the defense better, so likely that is part of the reason so many are in the shotgun these days.

[Nextmanup]

I can't wait for this upcoming draft, and for the analysts to be describing that guy we just took by saying "This guy is your classic, mauling, Guard.  He's extremely physical, great run blocker, good in pass blocking, he can do it all; he should be a blue chip OL in the NFL."

And then we need to get bodies during free agency too.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

17 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

With Allen's arm?  I wouldn't say that...they can use that thought process against teams

 

There are ways to combat that tho as well from an offensive line blocking standpoint...it's not like the Bills couldn't come up with a plan to still make that work

 

Correct, but you are very limited as you have almost no athleticism at the guard position.  Typically with roll outs - you are pulling guards or centers to slide over and create a new pocket toward the outside.  

 

Currently the Bills are facing a contain DE and DTs that are beating your RG - which is where you want to move the pocket.  
 

Your Center and LT have some athletic ability, but your guards are big bodies that take up space.  Rolling to the right with the current line just adds to the pressure.  You are literally moving Josh right into the pressure spots on the DLine.

 

With Spencer Brown at RT and Williams at RG - you now have the athletic makeup to move the line, but the improved guard play so that you don’t need to.

 

I think as a rare 1 off it works, but based upon your OP - I think you are inviting trouble.  The current line is weakened and can’t really perform what you are asking, the regular line doesn’t need to.  
 

So you would be trying to create a whole new offense that actually plays into what the defense is doing and only doing it for the limited time that Brown is out - seems like a huge stretch of something for an offense to work on.  They are better off working on ways to help Ford out that can be when he is replaced by the next game.

 

 

[Steptide]

Daboll gonna Dabe

[78thealltimegreat]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

They did a study that showed QBs are more effective from the shotgun across the board pretty much and said it likely is because it gives them the ability to survey the defense better, so likely that is part of the reason so many are in the shotgun these days.

This might be one of those cases where teams are all so one way anymore that doing it old school looks like they’re speaking a foreign language 

[Beerball]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 I simply don't understand with the pass blocking issues they have had why Daboll hasn't started moving the pocket more with Allen.  This would help with several things:

 

1) It would get Allen away from the immediate middle pressure that seems to be happening so much since Ford gets smoked more often than not

2) It would cause the DLine to have to chase Allen all over the field which would wear on them as the game wore on and tire them out, limiting their effectiveness as time went on from being tired.

3) This might also open up holes in the run game since a tired DLine would be less effective getting off blocks and tackling, leading to more arm tackles and poor technique.

4) It would allow Allen and his WR's more creativity in getting open downfield, and allow for misdirection throwbacks that could result in HUGE plays since the flow would be taking all the defenders towards the play side

5) It would force defenders to make a choice between defending Allen running the ball versus covering their man, or at least give them hesitation as to what they should do that would allow Allen to have an advantage where either they don't cover his rushing lane and he gets cheap yards or they leave a man uncovered downfield...it would also be something new the Bills are doing regularly so the tape on it wouldn't be out immediately for teams to have a good gameplan against it

 

Daboll is supposed to innovative, but having your mobile QB get pressured up the middle quickly which negates his mobility and play making ability doesn't seem to make much sense from a design standpoint...

Boggles the mind, doesn’t it?

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I think mostly because teams are not rushing with their DEs - they are having them go up field to contain JA in the pocket.  Therefore many times you would roll Josh right into an oncoming DE.

 

Rollouts work best if the tackle can hook a DE giving space, but the times they have move Josh out - he is forced directly into guys not rushing, but playing contain.  - Similar to how the Bills have played Lamar.  Pass Rush from the outside to contain get pressure from the middle.

 

Defenses have even gotten particular in allowing space for Josh to escape, but mostly to his left because they can control better where he throws when he is moving that way.

 

If you watch the game there are times he tries to roll out and the DE or OLB is waiting for him and forces him backwards and away from the LOS.  It has moved Josh into areas where he is unprotected and he has rushed throws or made plays where he didn’t get the ball back to the LOS and got flagged for intentional grounding.

 

Your idea sounds great in theory, but is easily thwarted by a DE playing contain - which brings Josh right into the pass rush.  
 

Also as we have seen - anytime the QB or RB is moving side to side and the DL disengages to pursue - that is when the majority of holding calls occur.  They see the player move and then call the hands outside the frame.  
 

Those would be the first two reasons - I am sure their are more.  It works on occasion, but as a long term attack plan - I think it opens up issues.

 

 

 

Bingo

 

so the next question would be, what is the best way to beat teams that are playing contain on the edges while playing cover 2 shell?  Power run game (ugh, not good with Morse @ center) and short passing game (we have the pieces to excel) would be my guess from my seat on the couch.

Edited November 26, 2021 by NewEra

[EmotionallyUnstable]

3 hours ago, ticketssince61 said:

... and it limits your passing options to only half the field. 

 

But, I agree Daboll has to be more creative

Not only does it limit the down field options, it also shrinks the field of play for the QB to scramble. 
 

If you want to move the pocket, how about some naked boot action? The Bills love a good PA fake, 7 stepper in the pocket. Give Breida an outside zone PA fake and send Allen out on his own vs a DE who may or may not keep contain. I like our chances. 
 

Disclaimer: yes I know it still shrinks the field for the QB as a runner but with proper scheme they could have a personal protector to allow for a throw back 

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Bingo

 

so the next question would be, what is the best way to beat teams that are playing contain on the edges while playing cover 2 shell?  Power run game (ugh, not good with Morse @ center) and short passing game (we have the pieces to excel) would be my guess from my seat on the couch.

11 personnel, pin and pull with TE/T combo. Knox blocks down on the 7T DE and the tackle pulls out behind him. The rest of the line slides gap protection and the RB either cleans up the mess or keeps the edge clean. 
 

Sets up a perfect TE screen or throw back for later on. 
 

JmO

[EmotionallyUnstable]

3 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I think mostly because teams are not rushing with their DEs - they are having them go up field to contain JA in the pocket.  Therefore many times you would roll Josh right into an oncoming DE.

 

Rollouts work best if the tackle can hook a DE giving space, but the times they have move Josh out - he is forced directly into guys not rushing, but playing contain.  - Similar to how the Bills have played Lamar.  Pass Rush from the outside to contain get pressure from the middle.

 

Defenses have even gotten particular in allowing space for Josh to escape, but mostly to his left because they can control better where he throws when he is moving that way.

 

If you watch the game there are times he tries to roll out and the DE or OLB is waiting for him and forces him backwards and away from the LOS.  It has moved Josh into areas where he is unprotected and he has rushed throws or made plays where he didn’t get the ball back to the LOS and got flagged for intentional grounding.

 

Your idea sounds great in theory, but is easily thwarted by a DE playing contain - which brings Josh right into the pass rush.  
 

Also as we have seen - anytime the QB or RB is moving side to side and the DL disengages to pursue - that is when the majority of holding calls occur.  They see the player move and then call the hands outside the frame.  
 

Those would be the first two reasons - I am sure their are more.  It works on occasion, but as a long term attack plan - I think it opens up issues.

 

 

 

 

A good crack block by a WR or TE can be very convincing. At the speed these guys play, it doesn’t take much. A slight chip can almost entirely nullify the DE in a sprint roll out while allowing the WR/TE to still get into an underneath route. 
 

That being said if the DE wants to play a wide 9 on the TE, then they absolutely should be running the ball. 

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

 

A good crack block by a WR or TE can be very convincing. At the speed these guys play, it doesn’t take much. A slight chip can almost entirely nullify the DE in a sprint roll out while allowing the WR/TE to still get into an underneath route. 
 

That being said if the DE wants to play a wide 9 on the TE, then they absolutely should be running the ball. 

 

That works if you have guys that can move out to protect, but if the WR/TE chips down it slows down their route.

 

If the guards struggle to pull for the roll out - it leaves lots of room to attack the gaps and get pressure on Josh - closer to the sideline.

 

 

 

[Nextmanup]

To the OP:  You pose a good question.  Why aren't we trying to do more of this type of thing?

 

Another interesting question: why has Matt Breida gone undressed for most of the season?  Fans were calling for that the last few weeks as well; the coaching staff finally changed their position, and it seems to be working.

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

With Allen's arm throwing back across the field should work well. Russell Wilson and the Seahawks try this almost every game.

I think the long pass to Diggs against the Jets late in the game was a mini roll to the right throw back left.

[LABILLBACKER]

5 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

Yes but it has to be drilled, practiced. 

 

This game, as in the Jets game, we saw more FB time, an extra blocker, etc. And in this Saints game the Bills used way more short passes, sweeps, even one 3 "backs" set. And... it worked. Very few long passes but they moved the ball at will. If they can mix back the long plays more as well, this is gold. Josh was still being forced to be a moving pocket way too often though. But anything that helps the OL, do it! 

They are capable of scoring 28-31 points per game taking what the defenses are running at us now. We have to practice & execute "being smart". We don't have to always fall back to 25 yard posts or deep balls. You can win alot of games,  even a SB with screens, short slants and dump offs. If you don't believe me ask Tom Brady who has never had a canon arm. Daboll has to make adjustments even if it's on a weekly basis. We'll need Brian to be better to continue this journey to a championship. 

[Mat68]

Are not really effective with the outside zone.   When the backside of the defense has to crash down the line to take away the cutbacks that allows for the time and space for that play.  DE playing Allen kills the play.  That has happened about half the time.  I liked the run action of Knox and Davis to create big plays yesterday.  

[Da webster guy]

Daboll should watch how Stefanski does this.   Browns are great at it.  

[ganesh]

On 11/26/2021 at 11:31 PM, 78thealltimegreat said:

I continue to be amazed at how confused defenses are when Josh is under center…I’m guessing Josh just says he feels more comfortable back in shotgun as a reason 

Didn't someone post a few weeks back that Josh's numbers were through the roof when he starts under center?

What I am really missing with Allen this season is his ability to lead the receiver so that they can make plenty of YAC.  He seems to wait that split second long to throw the ball (in anticipation).   I saw that a lot last year...but this year not so much.

On 11/27/2021 at 4:41 AM, Ethan in Portland said:

With Allen's arm throwing back across the field should work well. Russell Wilson and the Seahawks try this almost every game.

I think the long pass to Diggs against the Jets late in the game was a mini roll to the right throw back left.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

On 11/27/2021 at 4:41 AM, Ethan in Portland said:

With Allen's arm throwing back across the field should work well. Russell Wilson and the Seahawks try this almost every game.

I think the long pass to Diggs against the Jets late in the game was a mini roll to the right throw back left.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

On 11/27/2021 at 4:41 AM, Ethan in Portland said:

With Allen's arm throwing back across the field should work well. Russell Wilson and the Seahawks try this almost every game.

I think the long pass to Diggs against the Jets late in the game was a mini roll to the right throw back left.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Didn't someone post a few weeks back that Josh's numbers were through the roof when he starts under center?

What I am really missing with Allen this season is his ability to lead the receiver so that they can make plenty of YAC.  He seems to wait that split second long to throw the ball (in anticipation).   I saw that a lot last year...but this year not so much.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

 

With Allen's arm, probably not

[78thealltimegreat]

12 hours ago, ganesh said:

Didn't someone post a few weeks back that Josh's numbers were through the roof when he starts under center?

What I am really missing with Allen this season is his ability to lead the receiver so that they can make plenty of YAC.  He seems to wait that split second long to throw the ball (in anticipation).   I saw that a lot last year...but this year not so much.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

Throwing across the field has issues.  It allows Safeties to jump the route easily.   These results in turn overs more often than not.

Good point in college you can get away with throwing across the field in the nfl not so much 

[DrPJax]

On 11/26/2021 at 12:17 PM, Big Turk said:

 I simply don't understand with the pass blocking issues they have had why Daboll hasn't started moving the pocket more with Allen.  This would help with several things:

 

1) It would get Allen away from the immediate middle pressure that seems to be happening so much since Ford gets smoked more often than not

2) It would cause the DLine to have to chase Allen all over the field which would wear on them as the game wore on and tire them out, limiting their effectiveness as time went on from being tired.

3) This might also open up holes in the run game since a tired DLine would be less effective getting off blocks and tackling, leading to more arm tackles and poor technique.

4) It would allow Allen and his WR's more creativity in getting open downfield, and allow for misdirection throwbacks that could result in HUGE plays since the flow would be taking all the defenders towards the play side

5) It would force defenders to make a choice between defending Allen running the ball versus covering their man, or at least give them hesitation as to what they should do that would allow Allen to have an advantage where either they don't cover his rushing lane and he gets cheap yards or they leave a man uncovered downfield...it would also be something new the Bills are doing regularly so the tape on it wouldn't be out immediately for teams to have a good gameplan against it

 

Daboll is supposed to innovative, but having your mobile QB get pressured up the middle quickly which negates his mobility and play making ability doesn't seem to make much sense from a design standpoint...

This o line is giving up pressure from the center and edges , as Fina stated , they are not doing basic techniques well !  Defenses also know Josh is much more effective moving to his right , so they are not going to just sit and not bring pressure from that side.  Also these o line instabilities ( injuries, Covid etc) affect communication and they are already failing at picking up simple stunts. I would do more up tempo , change the snap count more, really work on screens to slow the rush, and do more protection in with the fb and play from under center to stop giving tells so much. Rolling out some is a good idea, but can’t be the entire solution.  Those defensive coordinators are smart once they have film. I fault Daboll for lack or variety , and the o line coach is not doing his job well.   Morse is the one stable piece playing with good health and is really intelligent.  Brown has great potential , Dawkins needs an off season to fully recover from a near death illness , and the rest are backups or journeyman types.  Williams is a passable guard but I think he is overrated based on last years play ( watch him in the afc championship game,,,,looked confused).  Josh looks most comfortable running up tempo so I would really go with that almost like the k gun years!  

[GunnerBill]

Because rolling out means you only have half the field to work with and against two deep shell defenses it really simplifies the defensive keys. I mean sure, try it... but when you give up as much pressure as the Bills have against straight up 4 man rushes there is no magic potion in the playbook for that. When it happened week 1 the cry was "more screens" and "more running" well they have tried both of those with no real success so roll outs is the latest suggested solution. Unfortunately there really is not much you can do when your line play is as bad as ours has been at times. It throws everything off.