It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[Sundancer]

30 minutes ago, OrangeBills said:

 

There are zero hospitals stressed anywhere, and there really haven't been during this entire 20 month hysteria

In a thread full of bad info, your post adds more. Plenty of hospitals have been severely stressed. Lots of people could not get treatment because Covid cases dominated the workers. Even Fox covered this. Maybe not OAN though. 

[OrangeBills]

21 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

Just in Buffalo a major Hospital  (Mercy) has been on strike for almost almost a month because of severe under staffing , a problem across the country and shortage of key supplies.  I would call that stress.

 

OK, fair, I apologize.

 

Hospitals have been stressed for various reasons, but NOT because of COVID patients over-running their facilities.  

[Orlando Tim]

4 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Hard to generate a long term track record if no one will take the new drug because they want a decades long track record of success.  Kind of a catch-22.  Also, over 6 billion doses have been administered world wide.  Thats a significant number.

 

What are the long-term risks you fear?

Im middle aged and I have been vaccinated but in regards to my children, who are healthy, the risk from the virus to them is minimal while the long term vaccine impact will possibly not be known for decades. I do not think that any particular side effect is likely but I also know that if they naturally learn to fight to a disease it is good for their long term health 

[Sundancer]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

Im middle aged and I have been vaccinated but in regards to my children, who are healthy, the risk from the virus to them is minimal while the long term vaccine impact will possibly not be known for decades. I do not think that any particular side effect is likely but I also know that if they naturally learn to fight to a disease it is good for their long term health 

 

Thankfully we have a long track record of this NOVEL coronavirus that is driving a global pandemic and your kids can be part of the transmission chain. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

6 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Hard to generate a long term track record if no one will take the new drug because they want a decades long track record of success.  Kind of a catch-22.  Also, over 6 billion doses have been administered world wide.  Thats a significant number.

 

What are the long-term risks you fear?

 

Here is a little recap for you to help explain the thought process of why long term studies have been conducted on every vaccine ever and why it’s a rational  assessment to state that this new first time technology to create mRNA vaccines studied for 2 decades but never brought to market until 2020 has absolutely zero long term effect data. None. Zero. 

 

https://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/fda-approved-prescription-drugs-later-pulled-from-the-market/

 

if you have any clue about science this vaccine having no long term impact of any kind on developing children is a hypothesis at best. 
 

and as for immediate risk there is a not immaterial incidence of myocarditis and pericarditis impacting children, which can have chronic long term implications.  
 

Vaccines for adults verses children appear to have completely risk data sets

Edited October 27, 2021 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Orlando Tim]

4 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

Well here, it's the Guardian:  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study

 

This compares  transient myocarditis to Covid hospitalization at ages 12-15 years.

 

On the other hand, my 15 year old son is over a month out from his Covid infection and still doesn't have his sense of taste back.  Why is that and what does it mean down the line?  Risks can be relative.

 

I don't know anyone who states there is no long term risk to vaccination, only that it is very minimal.  As a non-teen adult, risk of long term effects from Covid are far higher.

I am sorry about your son, hopefully it is only ruining a few meals. I also am glad it is an option for parents for their kids, especially for ones with health issues. As I have said to others I support the option not the mandate. 

[JaCrispy]

Perhaps the vaccine mandates may have a bigger purpose, and long term agenda?

 

Maybe this is why covid policy is so inconsistent, so confusing...maybe the vaccine mandates are a means to an end, and we’ve all been distracted into bickering over “pro-vax vs. anti-vax”...

 

Curious what y’all think about this...👍

 

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by JaCrispy

[Big Blitz]

1 hour ago, Sundancer said:

 

Thankfully we have a long track record of this NOVEL coronavirus that is driving a global pandemic and your kids can be part of the transmission chain. 

 

 

And what's stopping that from continuing?

 

You still on Team Eradication?

 

 

If you are, that's tough.  

 

If you aren't, you're supporting forever mitigation measures and it's logical conclusion.

 

Period.  

 

There is no justifying mandated vaccines to.....anyone. 

[SoCal Deek]

Still waiting for someone to answer my simple question? Anyone?

[Sundancer]

36 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Still waiting for someone to answer my simple question? Anyone?

 

Maybe because your question is so stupid. “With virtually total control over Washington for the better part of a year now, why hasn’t Biden [mandated vaccines]?”

 

Biden is trying to mandate as much as he believes he can. Why he’s doing it? To stop Americans from dying. Why is he struggling to enact? Because he’s getting lots of pushback.

 

Not that hard to comprehend, liar.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Sundancer

[Sundancer]

38 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

And what's stopping that from continuing?

 

You still on Team Eradication?

 

I don’t know if we can eradicate this. Certainly not for a long time. But we can 100% reign it in until it’s negligible with vaccines. 

 

38 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

If you are, that's tough.  

 

If you aren't, you're supporting forever mitigation measures and it's logical conclusion.

 

Period.  

 

I don’t support any mitigation measures besides masks around at risk people (hospitals and nursing homes). You created a false choice. 

 

38 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

There is no justifying mandated vaccines to.....anyone. 

 

If you’re a healthcare worker, go spread your COVID somewhere else. You’re fired if you don’t get the vaccine. Businesses should require what they see fit to keep their employees safe. It’s a pandemic, and currently mostly a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Stop spreading it if you’re unvaccinated. That’s how this ends. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Still waiting for someone to answer my simple question? Anyone?

What was the question, Deek?  I’ll give it a whirl. 

[Big Blitz]

1 hour ago, Sundancer said:

 

I don’t know if we can eradicate this. Certainly not for a long time. But we can 100% reign it in until it’s negligible with vaccines. 

 

What does "reign it in" mean and why is the correct answer "that isn't a metric."

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sundancer said:

 

 

I don’t support any mitigation measures besides masks around at risk people (hospitals and nursing homes). You created a false choice. 

 

Everyone is at risk - the NFL had to send Allen Lazard home because he is just as vulnerable as a 80 year old diabetic.

 

Masks and protocols for life.  The NFL is showing you this live every day how it will work and if you have a problem with that your Chinese style social credit score will take a hit.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Sundancer said:

 

 

If you’re a healthcare worker, go spread your COVID somewhere else. You’re fired if you don’t get the vaccine.

 

 

Everyone can spread it.  Vaccinated or not.  So we make policy based on "we think you might spread it harder" or something if not vaccinated?  Ridiculous 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sundancer said:

 

Businesses should require what they see fit to keep their employees safe. It’s a pandemic, and currently mostly a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Stop spreading it if you’re unvaccinated.

 

 

 

*Biden and OSHA have entered the chat*

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Sundancer said:

 

That’s how this ends. 

 

We've been told lots of things about "how this ends" as we enter year 3 taking orders from the people who lied and censored anyone that questioned them and the virus' origins we'll all forget about as we become a Chinese satellite state.  

 

[SoCal Deek]

18 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

What was the question, Deek?  I’ll give it a whirl. 

The title of this thread is “It’s time to mandate vaccines”. It was started MONTHS ago, and hundreds of posts ago. So….on the assumption that the OP believes SOME government agency is supposed to mandate them…why haven’t they? Are they too busy dealing with another international pandemic?
 

Sundancer wants to solely focus on FEDERAL mandates and reverts to playing juvenile liar liar games.. So I’ll give him that, and come back with WHO is supposed to? States? Counties? Cities? Neighborhoods? Who? And….why haven’t they?

[JaCrispy]

5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The title of this thread is “It’s time to mandate vaccines”. It was started MONTHS ago, and hundreds of posts ago. So….on the assumption that the OP believes SOME government agency is supposed to mandate them…why haven’t they? Are they too busy dealing with another international pandemic?
 

Sundancer wants to solely focus on FEDERAL mandates and reverts to playing juvenile liar liar games.. So I’ll give him that, and come back with WHO is supposed to? States? Counties? Cities? Neighborhoods? Who? And….why haven’t they?

Well, didn’t Biden say, months ago, that he couldn’t mandate because it’s unconstitutional? 
 

So, if that’s the case, I don’t understand how the federal government can fine businesses if they don’t force their employees to get the shot...like, what’s the difference?

[ALF]

Congress Didn’t Give OSHA Authority to Impose Vaccine Mandates

 

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration is about to require 80 million working Americans to get vaccinated. You may be among them.

There’s just one catch: OSHA lacks the legal authority to impose a vaccine mandate. 

 

https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/congress-didnt-give-osha-authority-impose-vaccine-mandates

 

I believe businesses can have there own work rules like a vaccine mandate.

 

State laws establish vaccination requirements for school children. These laws often apply not only to children attending public schools but also to those attending private schools and day care facilities. All states provide medical exemptions, and some state laws also offer exemptions for religious and/or philosophical reasons. State laws also establish mechanisms for enforcement of school vaccination requirements and exemptions.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/laws/state-reqs.html

[Sundancer]

6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The title of this thread is “It’s time to mandate vaccines”. It was started MONTHS ago, and hundreds of posts ago. So….on the assumption that the OP believes SOME government agency is supposed to mandate them…why haven’t they? Are they too busy dealing with another international pandemic?
 

Sundancer wants to solely focus on FEDERAL mandates and reverts to playing juvenile liar liar games.. So I’ll give him that, and come back with WHO is supposed to? States? Counties? Cities? Neighborhoods? Who? And….why haven’t they?

 

I focused of federal because, as I literally quoted you 6 posts above, you asked “With virtually total control over Washington for the better part of a year now, why hasn’t Biden [mandated vaccines]?” Then started whining that no one was answering you.

 

Read your own posts!

 

7 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

What does "reign it in" mean and why is the correct answer "that isn't a metric."

 

 

 

 

Everyone is at risk - the NFL had to send Allen Lazard home because he is just as vulnerable as a 80 year old diabetic.

 

Masks and protocols for life.  The NFL is showing you this live every day how it will work and if you have a problem with that your Chinese style social credit score will take a hit.  

 

 

 

Everyone can spread it.  Vaccinated or not.  So we make policy based on "we think you might spread it harder" or something if not vaccinated?  Ridiculous 

 

 

 

*Biden and OSHA have entered the chat*

 

 

 

 

 

 

We've been told lots of things about "how this ends" as we enter year 3 taking orders from the people who lied and censored anyone that questioned them and the virus' origins we'll all forget about as we become a Chinese satellite state.  

 

 

I haven’t masked except at the doctor since the spring. You sure seem wound. Are you living in New Zealand?

[Doc Brown]

On 10/25/2021 at 12:11 PM, SoCal Deek said:

I watch on here as you guys go back and forth for weeks and weeks on the topic of vaccine mandates. So let me ask:

 

With virtually total control over Washington for the better part of a year now, why hasn’t Biden done it? 

 

Is he waiting for consensus to be reached on this Message Board? Or is this yet another thing he’s been too busy to get around to…Like going to the border? 

Lack of resources to enforce it.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

8 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The title of this thread is “It’s time to mandate vaccines”. It was started MONTHS ago, and hundreds of posts ago. So….on the assumption that the OP believes SOME government agency is supposed to mandate them…why haven’t they? Are they too busy dealing with another international pandemic?
 

Sundancer wants to solely focus on FEDERAL mandates and reverts to playing juvenile liar liar games.. So I’ll give him that, and come back with WHO is supposed to? States? Counties? Cities? Neighborhoods? Who? And….why haven’t they?

I saw that Sunny got lathered up, thanks for clarifying. 

The decision to push the envelope is viewed through a political lens.  For all the hubbub and manufactured outrage over DJTs comments about COVID being a political event, it certainly was and has been treated politically.  
 

The decision to mandate on federal or state level would have to consider the health of the general public, the legalities involved, and the political impact on the voting block necessary to keep one in power.  
 

In this case, we’re being told one thing (the fate of the nation depends upon submission) but the process reflects another (“If we can save just one life of one person who works in an organization of 100+ people with certain exemptions for certain organizations!”) and the obligatory “This is so important we’ll develop a revenue stream capable of destroying an organization that fails to mandate a vax that is by definition voluntary!”.  
 

When you had in the historical vax hesitancy for people that traditionally vote Democrat, the general distrust of the pharmaceutical (and government in general) industry and big business by people of all political leanings, and the emerging power of that voting bloc, there is a significant danger in bringing the hammer down. 
 

Federal, state, it’s all about focus groups,  political wrangling and relative risk.  

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

19 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I saw that Sunny got lathered up, thanks for clarifying. 

The decision to push the envelope is viewed through a political lens.  For all the hubbub and manufactured outrage over DJTs comments about COVID being a political event, it certainly was and has been treated politically.  
 

The decision to mandate on federal or state level would have to consider the health of the general public, the legalities involved, and the political impact on the voting block necessary to keep one in power.  
 

In this case, we’re being told one thing (the fate of the nation depends upon submission) but the process reflects another (“If we can save just one life of one person who works in an organization of 100+ people with certain exemptions for certain organizations!”) and the obligatory “This is so important we’ll develop a revenue stream capable of destroying an organization that fails to mandate a vax that is by definition voluntary!”.  
 

When you had in the historical vax hesitancy for people that traditionally vote Democrat, the general distrust of the pharmaceutical (and government in general) industry and big business by people of all political leanings, and the emerging power of that voting bloc, there is a significant danger in bringing the hammer down. 
 

Federal, state, it’s all about focus groups,  political wrangling and relative risk.  

 

 

 

I believe you’re trying to say our elected officials don’t have the guts to act. It’s way easier for them to posture, threaten and bloviate. 
 

So can we end this thread? After almost a year of readily available vaccines. It ain’t happening.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

I believe you’re trying to say our elected officials don’t have the guts to act. It’s way easier for them to posture, threaten and bloviate. 
 

So can we end this thread? After almost a year of readily available vaccines. It ain’t happening.

No, Deek, they absolutely have the desire to act, the will to do so, and the willingness to sidestep messy issues like the law and the rights of an individual, but they have made the political calculation that it is not in their best interest to act at this time.  
 

It’s not cowardice, it’s strategy. 

[OrangeBills]

This probably isn't the place for this, but it's pretty interesting how utterly human and pretty awful Bill Gates is proving out to be, with all of the new revelations coming out in the last several months.  And who knows what else there is lurking behind the curtain...

 

Point is we anointed him Society's savior and benefactor, when really he's just a run-of-the-mill Software code-writer with the same predilections (actually worse) than the rest of us.

[SoCal Deek]

6 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

No, Deek, they absolutely have the desire to act, the will to do so, and the willingness to sidestep messy issues like the law and the rights of an individual, but they have made the political calculation that it is not in their best interest to act at this time.  
 

It’s not cowardice, it’s strategy. 

Thanks. So now we’re back on topic here! It’s your contention that our leaders LIKE the population at each other’s throats, filling up almost 200 pages of a thread on vaccine mandates. You might have a point. If so, they’re brilliant! 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

Thanks. So now we’re back on topic here! It’s your contention that our leaders LIKE the population at each other’s throats, filling up almost 200 pages of a thread on vaccine mandates. You might have a point. If so, they’re brilliant! 

Yes, and ultimately people in those positions want control.  History shows us that, doesn’t it?   

 

The average guy who says “we’re not after your guns!” may be telling the truth, but some politician is always after your guns.    

 

In the big picture, lockdowns, mandates, civil fines, vax at football stadiums is all about control.  100%, can’t be disputed.   Whether or not someone supports it out of fear for their safety, love of fellow man, whatever depends on the individual.  
 

I’m of the mind that when you cede control of your freedom, people in power  are often willing to take it.  

The balancing act for us all is trying to figure when the fate of the world is truly in the balance and when it is not.  In this case, it seems obvious that Biden has made partisan political decisions, as have other political leaders on the state level.

 

Btw, just stopped at a coffee shop.  Masks everywhere, signs everywhere.  I get my coffee and go to the creamer table.  The stirrers are sitting there, no wrappers almost begging to be pawed through.  No one thinks that might be an issue? No one at corporate, the health dept etc?  
 

 

 

[TSOL]

Ive been seeing more and more accounts on social media, facebook, twitter, instagram, and the like, of people saying that the vaccine is making their ***** shrink. 

 

Have any of you pro vaxxers noticed a difference? 

[JaCrispy]

12 minutes ago, TSOL said:

Ive been seeing more and more accounts on social media, facebook, twitter, instagram, and the like, of people saying that the vaccine is making their ***** shrink. 

 

Have any of you pro vaxxers noticed a difference? 

Government’s way of deterring toxic masculinity...

 

[billsfanmiamioh]

16 hours ago, Sundancer said:

 

I don’t know if we can eradicate this. Certainly not for a long time. But we can 100% reign it in until it’s negligible with vaccines. 

 

 

I don’t support any mitigation measures besides masks around at risk people (hospitals and nursing homes). You created a false choice. 

 

 

If you’re a healthcare worker, go spread your COVID somewhere else. You’re fired if you don’t get the vaccine. Businesses should require what they see fit to keep their employees safe. It’s a pandemic, and currently mostly a pandemic of the unvaccinated. Stop spreading it if you’re unvaccinated. That’s how this ends. 

How exactly is that going to happen? Pretty sure the general consensus is that this thing is endemic. And it’s also becoming increasingly clear that vaccinated spread significantly more than originally thought. This vaccine is a life saver for many and that’s fantastic. Pretending like it’s the singular path towards ending this thing which is so far out of the bag is just nonsense. 

 

[Sundancer]

1 hour ago, billsfanmiamioh said:

How exactly is that going to happen? Pretty sure the general consensus is that this thing is endemic. And it’s also becoming increasingly clear that vaccinated spread significantly more than originally thought. This vaccine is a life saver for many and that’s fantastic. Pretending like it’s the singular path towards ending this thing which is so far out of the bag is just nonsense. 

 

 

I'll take getting us below pandemic level deaths for a starter. 

 

Then I'll take hospitalizations back to something like normal. 

 

At taht point, I'd say it's negligible. They've managed to do this in several countries with very high vax rates. 

 

No one knows if it's endemic. Way too early for that call but it might be. Given the virus's seeming dependence on its spikes, I would not put it past a future vax/treatment to wipe it out from humans. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Government’s way of deterring toxic masculinity...

 

Its a cornerstone part of the Woke agenda to create a generation of girly-men that are in touch with their feelings and aren't afraid to cry. 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[SoCal Deek]

5 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Yes, and ultimately people in those positions want control.  History shows us that, doesn’t it?   

 

The average guy who says “we’re not after your guns!” may be telling the truth, but some politician is always after your guns.    

 

In the big picture, lockdowns, mandates, civil fines, vax at football stadiums is all about control.  100%, can’t be disputed.   Whether or not someone supports it out of fear for their safety, love of fellow man, whatever depends on the individual.  
 

I’m of the mind that when you cede control of your freedom, people in power  are often willing to take it.  

The balancing act for us all is trying to figure when the fate of the world is truly in the balance and when it is not.  In this case, it seems obvious that Biden has made partisan political decisions, as have other political leaders on the state level.

 

Btw, just stopped at a coffee shop.  Masks everywhere, signs everywhere.  I get my coffee and go to the creamer table.  The stirrers are sitting there, no wrappers almost begging to be pawed through.  No one thinks that might be an issue? No one at corporate, the health dept etc?  
 

 

 

Thanks….So now we’ll go back the resident Internet experts telling us all how they’d run the worlds health care systems. When this thread gets 350 pages I’ll ask my simple question again. 😂😂

[Big Blitz]

We're just going to reign this in baby!  

 

 

 

Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home

 

 

Double jabbed people are catching Covid and passing it on to those they live with, warn experts who have studied UK household cases.

 

Individuals who have had two vaccine doses can be just as infectious as those who have not been jabbed.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036

 

 

 

Get vaxxed tho!  That's how this "ends."

[Orlando Tim]

11 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

We're just going to reign this in baby!  

 

 

 

Covid: Double vaccinated can still spread virus at home

 

 

Double jabbed people are catching Covid and passing it on to those they live with, warn experts who have studied UK household cases.

 

Individuals who have had two vaccine doses can be just as infectious as those who have not been jabbed.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-59077036

 

 

 

Get vaxxed tho!  That's how this "ends."

The other part of that article that is interesting is that the 77% of protection from Pfizer is an average and that those most at risk have the quickest drop. 

[GaryPinC]

On 10/27/2021 at 2:57 PM, Sundancer said:

 

And myocarditis, while not something anyone wants, is easily treatable. 

 

Covid, which has widespread impact in the human body, is not. 

 

The FDA concluded that benefits outweigh risks for kids in most scenarios when Covid widespread. Only when Covid cases were very low in the community, and it looked to last summer for a benchmark, did it not appear beneficial to vaccinate children. CA would be a good example of a place where mandating vaccines, even according to the CDC, would not make sense. Good luck getting CA to follow that subtlety. 

Well, in my research with pigs, myocarditis makes your heart more susceptible to fatal arrhythmias, so it's occurrence shouldn't be minimized. 

 

While it occurs because of the vaccines, we don't know what effect Covid would have had on those particular patients.

 

Post- infection, my son had tight chest and light headedness his first week back to football. It may have been respiratory, but the trainer did some pulse ox readings that made me suspect cardiac, so who knows?

[Sundancer]

31 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

Well, in my research with pigs, myocarditis makes your heart more susceptible to fatal arrhythmias, so it's occurrence shouldn't be minimized. 

 

While it occurs because of the vaccines, we don't know what effect Covid would have had on those particular patients.

 

Post- infection, my son had tight chest and light headedness his first week back to football. It may have been respiratory, but the trainer did some pulse ox readings that made me suspect cardiac, so who knows?

 

Thank you—not minimizing a swelling in the heart for sure.

 

Myocarditis is a symptom of Covid in kids at a high rate. I’m not sure if I’ve seen a comparison of vaccine myocarditis incidence vs Covid. Either way, something about reacting to both the disease and vax causes it.

 

The risk of myocarditis for children under 16 years is 37 times higher for those infected with COVID-19 than those who haven’t been infected with the virus, according to a new study.

 

Authors from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said the study provides more evidence that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh a small risk of myocarditis after vaccination.

 

 

 https://www.aappublications.org/news/2021/08/31/covid-myocarditis-risk-children-083121

[GaryPinC]

On 10/27/2021 at 7:07 PM, Buffalo Timmy said:

I am sorry about your son, hopefully it is only ruining a few meals. I also am glad it is an option for parents for their kids, especially for ones with health issues. As I have said to others I support the option not the mandate. 

Thanks for the kind, thoughts.  Yes, it should be just an inconvenience, as were his tight chest and light-headedness his first week back to football.

 

My point is, even in these low risk kids there are risks to contracting Covid and I hope every parent/person carefully weighs the fact that right now your risk of long term effects from Covid far outweigh similar risks from the vaccine. Too often we are fixated by death stats.

 

And I understand reticence about the new vaccine technology, but given the short half life of the vaccine and the epidemiological focus on them, potential toxic effects of any vaccines decades later are highly, highly unlikely and even more unlikely to be traced back to the vaccine.  No, the time is now and in the next couple years, but with hundreds of millions of doses administered in over a year, the mRNA's have looked great.

 

With these mRNA vaccines, the biggest risk is inducing an auto-immune disorder, which should be apparent very quickly, as in clinical trials quickly.

 

WRT kids, I'd like to offer my perspective.  I really don't see the point of vaccinating kids under 12, given they are less likely to contract it to begin with and be asymptomatic.  The newer fact that the vaccinated can still carry and transmit delta means there should be no mandates on all school kids up to twenty-somethings.  But I don't fear the vaccines and will talk to my son's doctor about it but hold off for now.

Edited October 29, 2021 by GaryPinC

[GaryPinC]

38 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

 

Thank you—not minimizing a swelling in the heart for sure.

 

Myocarditis is a symptom of Covid in kids at a high rate. I’m not sure if I’ve seen a comparison of vaccine myocarditis incidence vs Covid. Either way, something about reacting to both the disease and vax causes it.

 

The risk of myocarditis for children under 16 years is 37 times higher for those infected with COVID-19 than those who haven’t been infected with the virus, according to a new study.

 

Authors from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said the study provides more evidence that the benefits of the vaccine outweigh a small risk of myocarditis after vaccination.

 

 

 https://www.aappublications.org/news/2021/08/31/covid-myocarditis-risk-children-083121

I don't put a lot of stock in the magnitude of those numbers and this is what drives me crazy about the CDC.  The devil is in the details.

 

This study compares myocarditis rates of people, with kids as a subset, who were admitted to hospitals with Covid vs uninfected.  Probably in the last 6-12 months.  I would think the kids Covid group is a really small number, and what percent of total Covid+ kids are admitted to the hospital?  Again, a very small number.

 

When considered against the premise of mass vaccinations of kids, I'm unsure this proves your odds of myocarditis are lower with the vaccines compared to Covid-at-large, and I don't feel it's scientifically honest to draw that conclusion from this study.

[All_Pro_Bills]

30 minutes ago, GaryPinC said:

I don't put a lot of stock in the magnitude of those numbers and this is what drives me crazy about the CDC.  The devil is in the details.

 

This study compares myocarditis rates of people, with kids as a subset, who were admitted to hospitals with Covid vs uninfected.  Probably in the last 6-12 months.  I would think the kids Covid group is a really small number, and what percent of total Covid+ kids are admitted to the hospital?  Again, a very small number.

 

When considered against the premise of mass vaccinations of kids, I'm unsure this proves your odds of myocarditis are lower with the vaccines compared to Covid-at-large, and I don't feel it's scientifically honest to draw that conclusion from this study.

Based on insurance data I've seen on hospitalization the rate of kids being admitted to hospitals "with" COVID w/o a high risk pre-existing condition is extremely rare.  And it might be hard to establish a base line in a lot of these studies. 

Of course all the COVID facts we get are derived from the data available and assumes all cases were coded and recorded correctly which is a suspect assumption and verifying everything is difficult because of patient privacy and other challenges. 

[GaryPinC]

30 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Based on insurance data I've seen on hospitalization the rate of kids being admitted to hospitals "with" COVID w/o a high risk pre-existing condition is extremely rare.  And it might be hard to establish a base line in a lot of these studies. 

Of course all the COVID facts we get are derived from the data available and assumes all cases were coded and recorded correctly which is a suspect assumption and verifying everything is difficult because of patient privacy and other challenges. 

Exactly, thanks for adding this as it's crucial when making conclusions on the bigger picture.  And it kills me this attention to these details get whitewashed by the CDC.  They should have a higher standard

Edited October 29, 2021 by GaryPinC

[LeviF]

Hmmm

 

[Orlando Tim]

My school district just dropped the mask mandate despite our school numbers being very steady across the county. Our superintendent also is allowing teachers to not use mask starting right after Thanksgiving. Why would she choose the time frame that is when the numbers are expected to spike regardless of mask mandates at work? The only reason is that this is political and not science related at all.