Chris Simms Has Zach Wilson Ahead Of Trevor Lawrence?

[GunnerBill]

17 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

On the other hand, I have the right to say something along the lines of "What you have there is an opinion, it is certainly not a fact," if you state an opinion as a fact. I'm not a mind-reader, just a text-reader.

 

You don't have to be a mind reader. You just have to use basic logic. Opinion on NFL draft prospects can never, by definition, be facts. They should always be read as opinions. I did not state an opinion as fact. 

[H2o]

Ok, I went and watched some games of Zach Wilson to really dig into what Simms was saying. I watched him against Boise St., against Coastal Carolina, against Western Kentucky, and against Louisiana Tech (all the BYU offensive possessions). I remember hearing a knock on Wilson is that he was like Manziel, minus the party boy lifestyle. That he's basically out there just winging it on the field. In some instances when plays break down, maybe. But he looks like he's out there actually processing what the defense is doing, not just relying on his athleticism like JM. I watched him hang a ball 60 yards in the air with pinpoint accuracy, even though his WR slowed up causing it to be incomplete. He throws from different arm angles. He looks off defenders. He uses that little shoulder pump fake like Josh does. He puts the ball in the perfect place for his receivers almost every time. The only time he's really missing his guy is when he throws off his back foot fading away or sometimes on the run. He stands in the pocket keeping a good base most of the time as well when protection allows. He definitely needs to add about 10lbs to his frame for the NFL, but that shouldn't be a problem. In summary I still don't know if I would take him over Lawrence, but this kid does look like he's gonna be special. He does have a Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers type feel to his game. I am now hoping and praying both the Jets and Dolphins are stupid enough to pass on him because I don't want him in the AFC East for the next 15 years. This kid is gonna be good. 

[metbill]

I would love for the Jets to draft Wilson at #2.  That means they don't trade for draft capital and bring Wilson on to the current Jets team, 100% guaranteed disaster!  The Jets trading the pick to build high end talent scares me more than any little string bean QB.  Unless Wilson hits the roids for a few cycles, he will be beaten into an early retirement, if he is even NFL caliber, especially behind that Jets Oline as it looks now.

[mannc]

3 hours ago, H2o said:

Ok, I went and watched some games of Zach Wilson to really dig into what Simms was saying. I watched him against Boise St., against Coastal Carolina, against Western Kentucky, and against Louisiana Tech (all the BYU offensive possessions). I remember hearing a knock on Wilson is that he was like Manziel, minus the party boy lifestyle. That he's basically out there just winging it on the field. In some instances when plays break down, maybe. But he looks like he's out there actually processing what the defense is doing, not just relying on his athleticism like JM. I watched him hang a ball 60 yards in the air with pinpoint accuracy, even though his WR slowed up causing it to be incomplete. He throws from different arm angles. He looks off defenders. He uses that little shoulder pump fake like Josh does. He puts the ball in the perfect place for his receivers almost every time. The only time he's really missing his guy is when he throws off his back foot fading away or sometimes on the run. He stands in the pocket keeping a good base most of the time as well when protection allows. He definitely needs to add about 10lbs to his frame for the NFL, but that shouldn't be a problem. In summary I still don't know if I would take him over Lawrence, but this kid does look like he's gonna be special. He does have a Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers type feel to his game. I am now hoping and praying both the Jets and Dolphins are stupid enough to pass on him because I don't want him in the AFC East for the next 15 years. This kid is gonna be good. 

I listened to the entire podcast this morning.  Simms says he’s got Wilson ranked ahead of where he had Burrow and Herbert last year, and he’s got Lawrence ranked behind both of them.  He also says no way in hell Jacksonville takes anyone other than Trevor Lawrence.

 

It will be very interesting to see what the Jets do.  

[C.Biscuit97]

1 - Simms is a genius who truly knows good qbs and should be employed by a nfl front office

 

or 

 

2 - he takes the unpopular opinion on purpose so if he is right, he looks way smarter than everyone else. 

10 minutes ago, mannc said:

I listened to the entire podcast this morning.  Simms says he’s got Wilson ranked ahead of where he had Burrow and Herbert last year, and he’s got Lawrence ranked behind both of them.  He also says no way in hell Jacksonville takes anyone other than Trevor Lawrence.

 

It will be very interesting to see what the Jets do.  

I guess it depends on what they think about 2022 QB crop. I didn’t love Darnold but his situation on the Jets has been a joke. If they like next years qbs, they should trade down, load up on picks, and continue building their roster. They evaluate Darnold for another year snd he fails, draft a new guy who will step into a much better situation. It’s not a coincidence that the same bad franchises struggle to find qbs.

 

I don’t think Wilson is some elite qb who can just elevate a bad nfl team. 

[mannc]

49 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - Simms is a genius who truly knows good qbs and should be employed by a nfl front office

 

or 

 

2 - he takes the unpopular opinion on purpose so if he is right, he looks way smarter than everyone else. 

 

As documented upthread, Simms has a very good track record when it comes to analyzing college QBs for the draft; I don't know that anyone has said he's a genius, though.  And if you listen to the podcast, he actually says his goal is to become a GM someday, and therefore he doesn't make these evaluations for clickbait purposes. 

[H2o]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

I listened to the entire podcast this morning.  Simms says he’s got Wilson ranked ahead of where he had Burrow and Herbert last year, and he’s got Lawrence ranked behind both of them.  He also says no way in hell Jacksonville takes anyone other than Trevor Lawrence.

 

It will be very interesting to see what the Jets do.  

I wouldn't rank him higher than Burrow either, but I do believe he is going to be good. Burrow was probably the most accurate deep ball passer I've ever seen. 

[C.Biscuit97]

37 minutes ago, mannc said:

As documented upthread, Simms has a very good track record when it comes to analyzing college QBs for the draft; I don't know that anyone has said he's a genius, though.  And if you listen to the podcast, he actually says his goal is to become a GM someday, and therefore he doesn't make these evaluations for clickbait purposes. 

Do you have more links to his evaluations besides the Allen draft? Because his Tayson Hill one screams clickbait. 

1 minute ago, H2o said:

I wouldn't rank him higher than Burrow either, but I do believe he is going to be good. Burrow was probably the most accurate deep ball passer I've ever seen. 

It’s so hard to tell though with these guys in absolutely loaded offenses. He had Jefferson and Chase with CHE in the backfield. I like Burrow but who won’t look in college in that situation?

[PrimeTime101]

Simms got a lot of visits and replies on this topic

 

Simms likes getting attention

[GunnerBill]

Simms doesn't do it for clicks. But just because he has a good track record doesn't mean he is always right. Even within his "good" record there have been a few misses. He really liked Drew Lock for example. I think he is a bit too high on Wilson and too low on Lawrence. I think it likely doesn't matter, because I think both will be good. I actually like all the top 4 guys this year to some extent. If I was a QB needy team in the top 10 I wouldn't have any problem taking any of them. I think there are certain guys who fit certain schemes better than others but they are four pretty legit prospects in my view. 

[MrSarcasm]

Honestly I'm not exactly blow away by Trevor Lawrence. I feel like he is going to be a mid tier QB when all is said and done. I think Derick Carr when I see him .

 

People always forget that Clemson is/was the best or second best school in the country- meaning Trevor Lawrence had the best or second best talent around him. Lots of talent around a player can hide their defects, just ask Alabama RBs not named Derrick Henry.

 

 

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Wilson is a monster and unfortunately the Jets are going to get him. I agree w/ Simms

[YoloinOhio]

On 3/3/2021 at 3:13 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

I think a fair criticism is that there is not a lot of development from year 1 to year 2 and year 3 at Clemson. But he was so good year 1 anyway. He didn't play well in the playoffs in 2019 but he did play well against Ohio State this year and against ND in the conference championship. Lawrence wasn't the reason Clemson lost. Justin Fields was.

Lawrence and Fields are both elite Qb talents and athletes who have not yet reached their ceilings. They are young and still developing. Their NFL traits are very clear. Both have the work ethic, leadership and intelligence to succeed in the NFL. I don’t know much about Wilson or lance but I think teams are overthinking it if those guys don’t go 1-2. 

[YoloinOhio]

On 3/3/2021 at 3:36 PM, Gugny said:

 

Fields had one ridiculous (fluke?) season bookended by two abbreviated okay seasons.  Fromm had 3 consistently decent/complete seasons.

They are just completely different QBs and athletes. I’m not sure comparing their stats are relevant when projecting to the nfl. Fields has elite talent. He has a lot less reps. He’s a bit of a project, with huge upside. But there is a reason that Fromm went in the 5th round. 

[Gugny]

45 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

They are just completely different QBs and athletes. I’m not sure comparing their stats are relevant when projecting to the nfl. Fields has elite talent. He has a lot less reps. He’s a bit of a project, with huge upside. But there is a reason that Fromm went in the 5th round. 

 

Fromm played in 9 more games than Fields did, with 3000 more yards and 15 more TDs than Fields.

[Buffalo716]

16 hours ago, MrSarcasm said:

Honestly I'm not exactly blow away by Trevor Lawrence. I feel like he is going to be a mid tier QB when all is said and done. I think Derick Carr when I see him .

 

People always forget that Clemson is/was the best or second best school in the country- meaning Trevor Lawrence had the best or second best talent around him. Lots of talent around a player can hide their defects, just ask Alabama RBs not named Derrick Henry.

 

 

 

 

It's not always just as cut and dry as that

 

And Derek carr and Trevor Lawrence are absolutely nothing alike 

 

One is an average sized NFL quarterback with above average traits.. lawrence is 6'6 , can move like Josh Allen, and was making throws as a true freshman that some quarterbacks in the NFL can't even make

 

Again I think the hype on Lawrence made it so he can never live up to it.. but he had the greatest true freshman season by a quarterback in the history of college football

 

Just say that sentence again and soak it in. In over 100 years he had the greatest true freshman season ever for quarterback

 

Everybody else is playing catch up to him as a prospect right now. And it's because he's been that far ahead of everybody since he was 15

 

Yea he had a good wideout room, but he still wasn't working with six NFL quality WRs .. he's going to look even better with a core of professionals

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Buffalo716

[turftoe]

On 3/5/2021 at 9:48 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

1 - Simms is a genius who truly knows good qbs and should be employed by a nfl front office

 

or 

 

2 - he takes the unpopular opinion on purpose so if he is right, he looks way smarter than everyone else. 

 

 

 

Or maybe he parots what his dad says about the QBs. His coming out and saying he wants to be a GM is funny to me. 

I don't think he is some talent guru, seeing things that nobody else does. Wilson has talent, no doubt. Can he stay healthy as a smaller QB? I think that is the bigger question.

[auburnbillsbacker]

No one really knows but I think it's possible.

[C.Biscuit97]

11 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Fromm played in 9 more games than Fields did, with 3000 more yards and 15 more TDs than Fields.

Haha, what a bunch of BS. You are counting the 12 games fields played as freshman where he threw 39 passes the entire year??? 😆

 

there is not a smart Georgia fan who would have rather had Fromm than Fields as a quarterback. 

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

there is not a smart Georgia fan who would have rather had Fromm than Fields as a quarterback. 

 

And there is not a smart reader who would interpret my comments this way.

[Nextmanup]

Remember when Chris Simms was just a garbage QB trying to make it in the NFL?

 

Since when are we supposed to care about what he says, one way or the other?

 

 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Gugny said:

 

And there is not a smart reader who would interpret my comments this way.

Uh, you purposely did a terrible stat comparison. 

Just now, Nextmanup said:

Remember when Chris Simms was just a garbage QB trying to make it in the NFL?

 

Since when are we supposed to care about what he says, one way or the other?

 

 

 

 

I mean he zinged when everyone zanged on Allen. But he has been terrible about a lot of his other predictions 

[Dr.Sack]

Allen I #1 in 2018 draft. 

[mannc]

30 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

I mean he zinged when everyone zanged on Allen. But he has been terrible about a lot of his other predictions 

Like which ones?

[Mat68]

On 3/5/2021 at 5:43 AM, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Fair enough that you disagree. You're claiming the freedom to communicate unclearly, and nobody can take that away from you. To communicate clearly and well should - I personally believe - be the goal in any public communication. Message board or not. If someone wants to be understood correctly, he should speak clearly. But some people have other priorities, and that's their prerogative.

 

And no, you don't have to say "I believe" or "in my opinion" before every opinion, to be clear. I pointed out four easy alternatives and there are surely hundreds if not tens of thousands of ways to point out you're expressing an opinion. But if you don't mind being misunderstood easily and often, who am I to challenge your priorities? Hell, I'm just a guy on the internet.

 

On the other hand, I have the right to say something along the lines of "What you have there is an opinion, it is certainly not a fact," if you state an opinion as a fact. I'm not a mind-reader, just a text-reader. Even if your intention is to give your opinion, if I can't understand that from the writing, I'm gonna react to what you wrote, just as I do for everyone. I just do my best to understand the words on the page or the screen, myself. I think that's what most people do, they assume what someone wrote is what they meant. I don't think of myself as bright enough to elicit unexpressed meaning from text.

 

Worth pointing out, though, that Simms spends a great deal of time and care pointing out that what he says is opinion.

 

01:30  "Zach Wilson is clearly the number one quarterback in the draft for me."

 

04:00  "To me, he is the clear-cut number one quarterback in this draft. I love Trevor Lawrence, there's a lot I like. But I think Zack Wilson and him, there's a separation there, for my money and what I see and what I've evaluated."

 

He even prefaces the whole thing with a similar statement, "What I'm evaluating here is what I see on the field. Yeah, I hear rumors and all that kind of stuff, OK? But all I can do is see what I see on the field and use my knowledge that way, and that's really what my rankings are all about."

 

That was only the first four minutes. He goes on like that constantly, in pretty much every podcast. Why? I think it's because through long experience he's found out that, people misunderstand him. They hear it as, "I know this, 'cause I'm just that smart." He's been faced with that misunderstanding often enough that he knows if he wants to be correctly understood he's got to say this.

 

 

He is also putting his name on.  He is right, most of the people who talk about the draft go off hearsay.  Group think sort of speak.  He over uses Me and I because he doesnt believe many people actually come to their own conclusions.  Goes back to his early Bleacher report days.  He firmly believes most people on TV talk about teams and players without actually ever watching them or the games during the season.  As a Bills fan is obvious that he is right.  I enjoy his opinions on players and games because he rarely talks about it without putting the effort into first.

[Thurman#1]

On 3/4/2021 at 5:43 AM, Gugny said:

 

I'm not saying Fromm is better than Fields.  I'm saying this is like an EJ vs. Tyrod comparison?  Was Tyrod better than EJ?  Yes.  Does that mean Tyrod was very good?  Nope.

 

Nothing I've seen, nor heard about, Fields tells me that he's a sure thing at the next level.  Therefore, I don't know why any team would pick him in the first round.

 

 

If teams only drafted sure things in the first round they'd probably have drafted three or four guys there over the last twenty years.  Manning, Luck, one or two others.

 

A sure thing is NOT the benchmark you look for at any position in the first round, much less QB, a position where you often have to just swallow and take the best chance you have. This year and last year it has been possible to get guys in FA or trades with a real chance to be really good. Historically that has really been true only very rarely.

 

The teams that get shut out there will maximize their chances to get a franchise QB by grabbing one of the top four or five or six guys in this draft. Those guys will go in the first because without a franchise guy your team will be scrabbling for table scraps in the wins column for years.

[Thurman#1]

On 3/5/2021 at 8:02 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

You don't have to be a mind reader. You just have to use basic logic. Opinion on NFL draft prospects can never, by definition, be facts. They should always be read as opinions. I did not state an opinion as fact. 

 

 

Well, yeah, opinion can never be fact. I got that.

 

But what a given person thinks is a fact and an opinion is not even close to that clear, Bill. I mean, come on. When something is stated as a fact, you really do have to be kind of a mind reader to be sure you understand when the guy is only giving his opinion. Maybe you're terrific at that. Maybe you never misunderstand. If so, more power to you, but I apparently have problems. I thought you were stating the opinion above as a fact. And I can promise you there are plenty more like me out there.

 

Again, that's pretty clearly why Simms, a guy giving draft opinions as you are, does so much of this. He's found that there are an awful lot of people like me out there.

 

Again, it's your communication, so do what you want. But I will also do what I want in my communication. Including pointing out that something you said that was stated as a fact is actually an opinion. That won't be separating you out, either. It's something I'm concerned with and do pretty often here, and really I do it generally.

 

I find this to be a cause of a ton of modern problems. You can't turn on a TV talk show without somebody shouting an opinion as if it's a fact. It's what modern public discourse is becoming and I believe it has a lot of awful consequences.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Mat68 said:

He is also putting his name on.  He is right, most of the people who talk about the draft go off hearsay.  Group think sort of speak.  He over uses Me and I because he doesnt believe many people actually come to their own conclusions.  Goes back to his early Bleacher report days.  He firmly believes most people on TV talk about teams and players without actually ever watching them or the games during the season.  As a Bills fan is obvious that he is right.  I enjoy his opinions on players and games because he rarely talks about it without putting the effort into first.

 

 

Oh, I really like Simms as well. He's bright, interesting, knowledgeable and a good listen.

 

And you're right that he often mentions and talks about groupthink and that most people make up their minds based on it. Which seems to me to be correct.

 

But he also makes it very clear very often that he makes mistakes, that he knows what he has are opinions and not facts. He often says that sometimes he's wrong, that he's not saying he knows he's right, that this is his opinion but what he can say about it is that it's backed up with a lot of hard work watching these guys and a lot of knowledge about what it takes to be a great QB in the NFL.

 

Though he also often says he's very aware that he was not a really talented QB. But his obsession with studying QB play has made him a well-informed evaluator.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Including pointing out that something you said that was stated as a fact is actually an opinion. 

 

 

Come on Thurman making a statement about a draft prospect being better than another is prima face opinion.

[metbill]

19 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

 

 

there is not a smart Georgia fan who would have rather had Fromm than Fields as a quarterback. 

Not saying they are smart, but the entire UGA coaching staff liked Fromm over Fields as he transferred to OSU due to his inability to unseat Fromm as the starter.

[Doc]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Oh, I really like Simms as well. He's bright, interesting, knowledgeable and a good listen.

 

And you're right that he often mentions and talks about groupthink and that most people make up their minds based on it. Which seems to me to be correct.

 

But he also makes it very clear very often that he makes mistakes, that he knows what he has are opinions and not facts. He often says that sometimes he's wrong, that he's not saying he knows he's right, that this is his opinion but what he can say about it is that it's backed up with a lot of hard work watching these guys and a lot of knowledge about what it takes to be a great QB in the NFL.

 

Though he also often says he's very aware that he was not a really talented QB. But his obsession with studying QB play has made him a well-informed evaluator.

Interesting. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a failed NFL QB admit that.