Reduce the size and complexity of the offensive play book

[Alphadawg7]

I think they need to reduce the size of the playbook a little bit and dial down the complexity.  Players in the past have already said its the most complicated they have seen, and that was before this year where he has clearly expanded the size of the playbook.

 

We are seeing too many dumb penalties on offense like illegal formations that have taken TD's off the board or killed drives.  Get this offense into a rhythm, make it just a little less complicated and keep it fresh with Josh ability to improvise.  Daboll is trying too hard on gimmick and trick plays.  He calls too many, and has bad timing with it too.  

 

Maybe just dial back the complexity and size just a little bit, at least until our offense gets healthy and get key guys back like Brown and Feliciano.   

Edited October 26, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[klos63]

The illegal formation was a terrible call, and likely had nothing to do with a complicated playbook. Davis was considered too far off the line. He wasn't.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I think the only way the complexity of the offense and size of the playbook will be dialed back is if Daboll is dialed back

It's his identity

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

To fix there problems in the Red Zone the bills need to start looking at the running backs we have and say your our number 1 no more running back by committee one  has to start taking pressure off of Josh,.

[MJS]

1 minute ago, klos63 said:

The illegal formation was a terrible call, and likely had nothing to do with a complicated playbook. Davis was considered too far off the line. He wasn't.

 

They didn't really show much of that play on the broadcast. Did you see the play somewhere?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Any evidence this is a problem?

[GunnerBill]

No. When you have no conventional run game you need as many other ways to manufacture offense as possible. 

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

No. When you have no conventional run game you need as many other ways to manufacture offense as possible. 

🐔/ 🥚?

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

🐔/ 🥚?

 

Ideally I'd fix the run game. Don't see a way to make that happen with the current personnel. The run game issues are on Brandon Beane more than Brian Daboll IMO.

Edited October 26, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Livinginthepast]

16 minutes ago, klos63 said:

The illegal formation was a terrible call, and likely had nothing to do with a complicated playbook. Davis was considered too far off the line. He wasn't.

 

The Bills one was very ticky tack. The Bills player was slightly off the LOS . Boneheaded play but not much of an advantage. Later in the game the Jets had the same penalty where the LIneman looked about a yard back from the line, which is much more egregious.

[klos63]

13 minutes ago, MJS said:

They didn't really show much of that play on the broadcast. Did you see the play somewhere?

someone posted a still shot , on twitter, of the formation right before the snap. If accurate, it shows a weak call in my opinion.

It looks like maybe Kroft is covering one end and Davis on the bottom is covering the left end.

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, klos63 said:

someone posted a still shot , on twitter, of the formation right before the snap. If accurate, it shows a weak call in my opinion.

It looks like maybe Kroft is covering one end and Davis on the bottom is covering the left end.

 

 

 

 

 

Did they clarify who they called it on? Gabe on the near side looks fine. The other side I am less sure is covered. 

[GoBills808]

He probably didn’t check in w his side ref

 

rookie mistake

[WideNine]

38 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I think they need to reduce the size of the playbook a little bit and dial down the complexity.  Players in the past have already said its the most complicated they have seen, and that was before this year where he has clearly expanded the size of the playbook.

 

We are seeing too many dumb penalties on offense like illegal formations that have taken TD's off the board or killed drives.  Get this offense into a rhythm, make it just a little less complicated and keep it fresh with Josh ability to improvise.  Daboll is trying too hard on gimmick and trick plays.  He calls too many, and has bad timing with it too.  

 

Maybe just dial back the complexity and size just a little bit, at least until our offense gets healthy and get key guys back like Brown and Feliciano.   

 

 

I was not a fan of the too cute double screen fake thing then ended up with Allen dirting the pass and our team getting called for illegal player downfield. We were in down and goal territory and the Jets were rushing 4 and we went 3 straight pass plays that were broken up.

 

I also feel like Allen rarely if ever gives up the ball on read option run plays. The reason it is called a read option is supposed to be Allen reading a specific defender or two has the option to give it to the running back or keep it. Allen has to take the option of giving the ball to the RB a few times to have that play work. At least three times today I saw the read option called where the running back had blockers and daylight yet Allen kept it and dove into a scrum of bodies.

 

Seemed the Jets knew that too, and I did not see them attack the running back on those options. Rather, they targeted Allen each time - you would think they might have spotted a hero-tendency or something.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by WideNine

[DrPJax]

35 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I think they need to reduce the size of the playbook a little bit and dial down the complexity.  Players in the past have already said its the most complicated they have seen, and that was before this year where he has clearly expanded the size of the playbook.

 

We are seeing too many dumb penalties on offense like illegal formations that have taken TD's off the board or killed drives.  Get this offense into a rhythm, make it just a little less complicated and keep it fresh with Josh ability to improvise.  Daboll is trying too hard on gimmick and trick plays.  He calls too many, and has bad timing with it too.  

 

Maybe just dial back the complexity and size just a little bit, at least until our offense gets healthy and get key guys back like Brown and Feliciano.   

I was wondering your opinion on whether you think some of the penalties are occurring as josh sits  quite awhile at the LOS, trying to use his hard count several times, and it seems to interfere with the lineman coming off at the snap aggressively and also sets them up for false starts. Seems like he uses this tactic much more now with no crowd present. Just a thought and value your observations. I also think  Brown, who has more experience in this offense than everyone except Beasley, being absent is a huge detriment to this offense being run effectively. Perhaps when he returns at full health , the offense will approach what it was the first four weeks. I also think incorporating more running plays would  effectively simplify things without limiting the type of formations and plays to draw from.  What do you think? 

[MAJBobby]

39 minutes ago, MJS said:

They didn't really show much of that play on the broadcast. Did you see the play somewhere?

I posted the picture of the lineup in the post game thread. 

[maryland-bills-fan]

39 minutes ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

To fix there problems in the Red Zone the bills need to start looking at the running backs we have and say your our number 1 no more running back by committee one  has to start taking pressure off of Josh,.

We have 3rd round running backs.  Notice that a lot of teams have 1st and 2nd round running backs. Gee, do you get what you pay for or are we so very clever and the rest of the world is stupid?

[DrPJax]

9 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

 

I was not a fan of the too cute double screen fake thing then ended up with Allen dirting the pass and our team getting called for illegal player downfield. We were in down and goal territory and the Jets were rushing 4 and we went 3 straight pass plays that were broken up.

 

I also feel like Allen rarely if ever gives up the ball on read option run plays. The reason it is called a read option is supposed to be Allen reading a specific defender or two has the option to give it to the running back or keep it. Allen has to take the option of giving the ball to the RB a few times to have that play work. At least three times today I saw the read option called where the running back had blockers and daylight yet Allen kept it and dove into a scrum of bodies.

 

Seemed the Jets knew that too, and I did not see them attack the running back on those options. Rather, they targeted Allen each time - you would think they might have spotted a hero-tendency or something.

 

 

I was saying the same thing today about the RPOS. Allen always keeps it.  Not sure if he doesn’t trust the rbs or if it’s an old habit from college where he was the best / star player and so he just feels he is “ certain” to get the first down etc.    It is a pattern that is noticeable by a novice like myself so I am sure this tendency is being keyed on by opponents. Let’s watch for this next week against the pats. 

[MAJBobby]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Did they clarify who they called it on? Gabe on the near side looks fine. The other side I am less sure is covered. 

Ok top side is fine there is a TE. With WR off Ball 
 

bottom WR is on the line. 
 

Slot off the Ball. 
 

this is a completely legal formation. 
 

all WRs checked with the Line Judge. Only way to call that is if you are on the OT or TE being in the backfield like they did with the Make up call later with Bekton. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by MAJBobby

[GunnerBill]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Ok top side is fine there is a TE. With WR off Ball 
 

bottom WR is on the line. 
 

Slot off the Ball. 
 

this is a completely legal formation. 

 

TE looks as though he may just be a touch deep. But hard to tell on that shot. 

[Nextmanup]

Who is to say that the penalties we get stem from "complexity" or player confusion?

 

A lot of the penalties we got today, for example, are the sort of undisciplined/stupid penalties Bills teams have always gotten.

 

Didn't seem anything special to me.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

37 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

No. When you have no conventional run game you need as many other ways to manufacture offense as possible. 

You can’t look at our offense and play calling and not put a lot of that on Daboll.  One, he is not calling many run plays, and when he does, he’s often calling runs out of unconventional formations or RPOs.  

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

TE looks as though he may just be a touch deep. But hard to tell on that shot. 

That is the ONLY player they could have called it on  I think. But I bet Bills get a letter this week from NFL Officials saying our bad we got it wrong. 
 

couldnt have called it on WRs as each one pointed at the Line judge (if they were lined up wrong Line Judge SHOULD have corrected them). 
 

which is why we didn’t get a number. Anytime I hear a penalty called with no number I immediately go to BS mode 

Edited October 26, 2020 by MAJBobby

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

You can’t look at our offense and play calling and not put a lot of that on Daboll.  One, he is not calling many run plays, and when he does, he’s often calling runs out of unconventional formations or RPOs.  

 

I can. The run blocking is atrocious and the running backs are very average and lack burst. The reason we are not running well is talent related. Finesse center, bad guards, slow ponderous backs.

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

That is the ONLY player they could have called it on  I think. But I bet Bills get a letter this week from NFL Officials saying our bad we got it wrong. 

 

It is certainly a harsh call. But it must have been on the TE. 

[Alphadawg7]

I didn’t make this post about one play.  We have had multiple issues for several weeks.  And most importantly, Daboll game plan has been frustrating for several weeks now.  
 

I didn’t say let’s make the offense vanilla, I think we need to just reduce the complex schemes a little bit that he’s always trying to run and turn the focus on getting the offense into a rhythm and getting the run game going.  
 

 

[947]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

TE looks as though he may just be a touch deep. But hard to tell on that shot. 

There's only 10 players shown in that still shot. I assume there's a WR wide on the right side that's not shown, and on the line. The WR at the top of the still is in the slot & off the line. Regardless, Gabe was even with the LT & the reply shows him signal that he's on the line to line judge. Really bad call. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, 947 said:

There's only 10 players shown in that still shot. I assume there's a WR wide on the right side that's not shown, and on the line. The WR at the top of the still is in the slot & off the line. Regardless, Gabe was even with the LT & the reply shows him signal that he's on the line to line judge. Really bad call. 

 

I count 11. I think there is a tight end next to the right tackle and he is the guy that looks arguably a bit deep to me. Am I seeing two people where there is only one?

[y2zipper]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I can. The run blocking is atrocious and the running backs are very average and lack burst. The reason we are not running well is talent related. Finesse center, bad guards, slow ponderous backs.

 

It is certainly a harsh call. But it must have been on the TE. 

 

I don't know the rules enough to know about the illegal formation but it's sus that we didn't get a number and the announcers didn't see it either.

 

The penalties today were on players that weren't planned starters and the sooner Buffalo gets Brown, Feliciano and Ford back, the better. This is a year with no preseason and TC, so teams that have major changes tend to have it rough. In Buffalo, this is a major reason the defensive line isn't good right and may be contributing to the run blocking woes, as well.

 

I also wonder if a part of the running game is part of building the team for Allen to succeed. He's largely a shotgun passer, and really prefers empty sets. Honestly enough.

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, y2zipper said:

 

I also wonder if a part of the running game is part of building the team for Allen to succeed. He's largely a shotgun passer, and really prefers empty sets. Honestly enough.

 

Yep and that is why the signed Morse who is a much better pass blocker than run blocker. Similarly Spain. But obviously something has gone on there.

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Marvlevydraftdaygenius said:

To fix there problems in the Red Zone the bills need to start looking at the running backs we have and say your our number 1 no more running back by committee one  has to start taking pressure off of Josh,.

 

The Bills have been one of the best redzone teams in the NFL since Allen took over. I'd say this is a momentary speed bump rather than an actual issue.

[MAJBobby]

15 minutes ago, 947 said:

There's only 10 players shown in that still shot. I assume there's a WR wide on the right side that's not shown, and on the line. The WR at the top of the still is in the slot & off the line. Regardless, Gabe was even with the LT & the reply shows him signal that he's on the line to line judge. Really bad call. 

There is a TE covering the OT on the top of the shot. That’s 11 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

15 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I didn’t make this post about one play.  We have had multiple issues for several weeks.  And most importantly, Daboll game plan has been frustrating for several weeks now.  
 

I didn’t say let’s make the offense vanilla, I think we need to just reduce the complex schemes a little bit that he’s always trying to run and turn the focus on getting the offense into a rhythm and getting the run game going.  
 

 

It's vague what exactly you're calling for other than more running plays and less RPOs...if that's all you got then 'Run The Ball More' would have "reduced the complexity" of your thread title.

[MAJBobby]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I didn’t make this post about one play.  We have had multiple issues for several weeks.  And most importantly, Daboll game plan has been frustrating for several weeks now.  
 

I didn’t say let’s make the offense vanilla, I think we need to just reduce the complex schemes a little bit that he’s always trying to run and turn the focus on getting the offense into a rhythm and getting the run game going.  
 

 

i do thinks there are some things we can do without. Example all the window Dressing on a TE screen. You don’t need to fake 2 screens to try and get e TE screen in the middle. 
 

I don’t need to see multiple McKenzie End around s. 
 

I do think Daboll is getting to crazy lately with his window dressing. 

[Matt_In_NH]

I dont agree.  Illegal formation and false starts are unforced mental errors not caused by playbook complexity.  That can happen no matter what the complexity is.  This is more lack of focus than too much complexity.  I do think maybe they need to make some strategy adjustments though.    More called runs for rb’s is needed IMO.  

Edited October 26, 2020 by mattynh

[y2zipper]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Yep and that is why the signed Morse who is a much better pass blocker than run blocker. Similarly Spain. But obviously something has gone on there.

 

QB development is so important I'll take that trade, and honestly enough I really like moss on passing downs as a checkdown option and in pass pro. I think today they showed they can sub the short passing attack for it and make that work, but I'd like some investment into the shotgun running game.

 

 

[MasterStrategist]

Just today, I give Daboll a pass on the run game.  Being limited to 2 TEs, and injuries up front.  As much as the red zone deficiencies,  I think we would have been more angry not to drive the field. Just didn't have the timing or execution on some of the redzone possessions.  Illegal formation was questionable, but also not a fan of a couple play calls.  Need to avoid the penalties as well, once we get down there.

 

Illegal formation, at least this week, appeared to be a poor officiating call.  And erased a great read by Josh, and route by Davis.  

 

Days like today, where Josh did a solid job taking what the defense provided, I'm fine relying on the pass.game.  But we know Josh will occasionally have his "off games", up to Daboll to adjust then, and agree Daboll hasn't done that well in our 2 losses.

 

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

It's vague what exactly you're calling for other than more running plays and less RPOs...if that's all you got then 'Run The Ball More' would have "reduced the complexity" of your thread title.

 

Thats not what I said.  I said reduce the complexity and size of the playbook a little bit until our offense is healthy.  Focus on getting a rhythm in the offense.  Because if you think our offense has been in rhythm the last 3 weeks then I dont know what games you have been watching.

2 minutes ago, mattynh said:

I dont agree.  Illegal formation and false starts are unforced mental errors not caused by playbook complexity.  That can happen no matter what the complexity is.  This is more lack of focus than too much complexity.  

 

Man, people fixate on certain words.  I didnt pin this thread only on penalties.  Its like thats all anyone read.  

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Thats not what I said.  I said reduce the complexity and size of the playbook a little bit until our offense is healthy.  Focus on getting a rhythm in the offense.  Because if you think our offense has been in rhythm the last 3 weeks then I dont know what games you have been watching.

So any time the offense doesn't work it's always going to be because it's too complex with no real reason to think that's the cause.

[Alphadawg7]

3 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

So any time the offense doesn't work it's always going to be because it's too complex with no real reason to think that's the cause.

 

Do you watch for the game plan?  The formations?  The shifts?  The schemes?  The options?

 

Not being an a**...but if you don't then this thread isn't going to make a lot of sense to you.  

 

Guess Daboll is perfect and nothing needs adjusting.  I whole heartedly disagree that hes been good the last few weeks.  I have had these issues in the past with him too.  

Edited October 26, 2020 by Alphadawg7

[Augie]

Rather than reduce the playbook, I’d rather INCREASE the production of the OLine. The RB’s are just OK, but they need a chance, somewhere to go. 

 

BTW, when does Feleciano comes back? Maybe that will help?