The End of the Lamar Jackson Era

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Because people rush to judgement.

 

Trent Dilfer won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?

Mark Rypien won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?
Jeff Hostetler won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?

 

Will LJ thrive w/o Roman. 
That is the key question

 

 

I mean the league has changed significantly since those three guys. The best recent example is Peyton Manning won a Superbowl. At the time he was barely a starting level QB.

[TheElectricCompany]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He is a phenomenal runner. I argue he is a limited passer. 

 

Limited passer...we're starting to go in circles in this thread, but there are plenty of videos and statistics on these 20 pages that showcase his ability to play in the pocket, scan the field, and throw some lasers and touch passes across the field.

 

He had THREE games last year with 5 passing TDs and 0 picks (plus some rushing yards). Limited passers can't do that, period.

Edited October 2, 2020 by TheElectricCompany

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Limited passer...we're starting to go in circles in this thread, but there are plenty of videos and statistics on these 20 pages that showcase his ability to play in the pocket, scan the field, and throw some lasers and touch passes across the field.

 

He remains an unfinished project, but he has the tools you need to be elite for a long time. The sky is truly the limit with him.

You don't run 75% option/zone read if your QB is a pocket passer. And those are the ones who historically reach the limits to which you're referring. 

 

It's not a style thing either. There are degrees of limitations I see in most QBs. I think Goff has a similar ceiling to his game, albeit for dramatically different reasons. 

[Teddy KGB]

1 hour ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

Limited passer...we're starting to go in circles in this thread, but there are plenty of videos and statistics on these 20 pages that showcase his ability to play in the pocket, scan the field, and throw some lasers and touch passes across the field.

 

He had THREE games last year with 5 passing TDs and 0 picks (plus some rushing yards). Limited passers can't do that, period.

Regular season baller.       
 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I mean the league has changed significantly since those three guys. The best recent example is Peyton Manning won a Superbowl. At the time he was barely a starting level QB.

yes it has. 
 

my point is some good teams do not need an elite QB. 
 

Peyton was a very good Qb.  Definitely limped in with the Broncos 

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

yes it has. 
 

my point is some good teams do not need an elite QB. 
 

Peyton was a very good Qb.  Definitely limped in with the Broncos 

 

Peyton was a great QB. But by the time he won his second Superbowl with Denver he was completely done. He was basically a play caller who stood behind center. He was a bottom 5 QB that year.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Peyton was a great QB. But by the time he won his second Superbowl with Denver he was completely done. He was basically a play caller who stood behind center. He was a bottom 5 QB that year.

I wanted to post great 

 

but his greatness ended a few years prior to his retirement. 
 

[JerseyBills]

On 9/29/2020 at 9:06 AM, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

I said ALL summer that Jackson was exposed by Buffalo late in the year and then Tennessee in the playoffs. 

Lamar can't read the field fast enough, once the run game breaks down , he has no shot in bringing them back through the pass game.  

I just don't see a scenario where he improves in that department or a scenario with him winning the SB, the defenses late in the playoffs will expose Lamar all day.

[TheElectricCompany]

1 hour ago, Teddy KGB said:

Regular season baller.      

 

That's fair - playoff dominance is the next bridge he has to cross.

[Punching Bag]

35 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I said ALL summer that Jackson was exposed by Buffalo late in the year and then Tennessee in the playoffs. 

Lamar can't read the field fast enough, once the run game breaks down , he has no shot in bringing them back through the pass game.  

I just don't see a scenario where he improves in that department or a scenario with him winning the SB, the defenses late in the playoffs will expose Lamar all day.

 

I can see scenarios where he can but I think he will need to fail badly to make him do the effort to do so in offseason. 

I have heard a lot of about his socializing during offseason but not much about him working his craft.

[Rick 'r Mortis]

9 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Because people rush to judgement.

 

Trent Dilfer won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?

Mark Rypien won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?
Jeff Hostetler won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?

 

Will LJ thrive w/o Roman. 
That is the key question

 

And it's not just this board, but maybe it's extra here? 

[Rebel101]

On 9/29/2020 at 9:06 AM, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

I agree. I just read an article that said Josh Allen can do this other QBs can’t even imagine doing and if he keeps doing them well, well it will basically be impossible to defend. But our defense needs to stop thinking now that Allen takes control of the game the can just give it slack because these games should have all been blow outs

[Dr.Sack]

Lamar Jackson is going to light up the Washington Football Team. Expect 5-6 TDs. 

[wjag]

8 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Lamar Jackson is going to light up the Washington Football Team. Expect 5-6 TDs. 

Yeah this is a bad week to draw the Ravens.  

[Big Gun]

8 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Lamar Jackson is going to light up the Washington Football Team. Expect 5-6 TDs. 

Doubt it, Rivera is a pretty good coach.

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Peyton was a great QB. But by the time he won his second Superbowl with Denver he was completely done. He was basically a play caller who stood behind center. He was a bottom 5 QB that year.

Yup, Peyton basically won with his brain as he had zero physical game left at that point.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

16 hours ago, Rick 'r Mortis said:

And it's not just this board, but maybe it's extra here? 

hard to say unless you visit other sites. 
 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Lamar Jackson is 4-5 in his career including playoffs in games where he attempts 28 or more passes a game. He is 17-1 when he attempts fewer than 28 passes. 

 

Josh Allen is 8-10 in his career including playoffs attempting 28 or more passes in a game. But he is on a clear upward trend with that stat. And like his career as a whole so far he has improved in each season.

 

2018- 0-5 attempting 28 or more passes

2019- 5-5 attempting 28 or more passes

2020- 3-0 attempting 28 or more passes

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

On 10/2/2020 at 2:25 PM, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Because people rush to judgement.

 

Trent Dilfer won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?

Mark Rypien won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?
Jeff Hostetler won a SB. Is or was he an elite QB?

 

Will LJ thrive w/o Roman. 
That is the key question

 

With the way the rules are right now Dilfer might even be able to break 300 every now and then. 

[BADOLBILZ]

Are you SURE @Shaw66? 

 

As sure as Kilimanjaro rises like Olympus above the Serengeti, sure?

 

I mean this board are gonna be chapped if the Bills meet the Ravens in postseason and the era ain't ended yet.

 

And if La-mar ends up raising the Lo-mbardi before the Bills you are going to wish you only suggested a Skelton for Mario swap.

[Victory Formation]

I thought Lamar Jackson would be a mega bust, but I no longer feel that way.. Yes, he struggled against the Chiefs but damn that guy is so talented.. Decent size, big arm, smart, amazing athlete.. I think he is more like Steve Young than he is Mike Vick.. I’ll admit I was wrong... he is going to be just fine! Incredible QB!