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Tag for Phillips?

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1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

We have $80M-90M to spend. We can sign JP, a WR, and a LB and still have $60M left over for extensions and other guys.

I get that, but he's going to split time with Oliver. That's a lot of $ for a part time player, even for 1 yr. We can make this a better/deeper team with that $15M. 

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11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That would be my fault for the cut-n-paste method I used, not his

 

 

How so?

 

What I read him saying is we will need cap space in 3 years, so instead of saving cap to roll over, we should spend it on a guy he flat-out states is not a $15.5M player.

 

If the guy is not a $15.5M player, why tag him for that?  If he's a worthwhile player and we want to keep him, and he'd be willing to sign for $24M/3 years, why not do that instead?  A deal can be structured in any kind of a way to front-load it and clear cap in the latter years.

 

It seems like he's arguing to treat the cap like it's "Brewster's Millions" this season, giving it away on a player who he says is not worth that much because we won't spend it all - because in future years we'll need cap.  But in that case why not roll over cap?

His argument is that losing Phillips for nothing is bad and you’ll have to pay something to replace him (at almost a guaranteed lower production). Giving Phillips a multiple year deal that will beat the market, (aka probably not some team friendly out in 2 year deal) is also bad. Controlling Phillips for 1 year, not letting him test the market, may be preferable even with a higher 1 year pricetag.

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5 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I get that, but he's going to split time with Oliver. That's a lot of $ for a part time player, even for 1 yr. We can make this a better/deeper team with that $15M. 

 

Our entire DL "splits time". Are you saying we should never sign a DL star since they'll always be in rotation? Where better to invest than in the trenches? We still have plenty of money to make this a better/deeper team even with that theoretical signing.

 

If we were in a different cap situation, I'd agree with you. The money could be better spent elsewhere. But we have a ton of cash to spend this year. Whether it's a big, 1-year Franchise Tag deal, or a more team-friendly long term deal. We have the ability to make that deal and still have money.

 

We have our QB on a rookie deal. We control Tre's money for 2 more years. Now is the time to make such splurges in order to "win now" while that window is open.

 

Edited by DrDawkinstein
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Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Our entire DL "splits time". Are you saying we should never sign a DL star since they'll always be in rotation? Where better to invest than in the trenches? We still have plenty of money to make this a better/deeper team even with that theoretical signing.

I do agree with building the trenches. He's not a star to me, though. If I thought he was, I would be for it. Even splitting time. 

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1 minute ago, Dopey said:

I do agree with building the trenches. He's not a star to me, though. If I thought he was, I would be for it. Even splitting time. 

 

Regardless of whether we think he's a star or not, who is going to replace him that is as good?

 

Right now we just have Ed in that 3-tech spot. Star, Harry, VTaylor, and Liuget are all 1-tech.

 

Don't focus on the $ amount when we have so much to spend. Especially if we're talking 1-year Franchise Tag deal where we get that cap space back next year anyways.

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1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Regardless of whether we think he's a star or not, who is going to replace him that is as good?

 

Right now we just have Ed in that 3-tech spot. Star, Harry, VTaylor, and Liuget are all 1-tech.

 

Don't focus on the $ amount when we have so much to spend. Especially if we're talking 1-year Franchise Tag deal where we get that cap space back next year anyways.

Good question. I don't have an answer. I won't be pissed if they franchise him, but would prefer something else for that amount of $. Unless we feel we are SB ready.

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Plus keep in mind that there is no cap roll over for next year. (Right? Because of the CBA ending)

 

If that is the case, spend away (in a constructive, conscience manner). Leave no dollar unspent.

Edited by letsgoteam

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3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Makes sense to me. We have the cap space and nothing else to spend it on (assuming a lot of the big names we covet in FA ultimately wont be available).

 

Might as well spend it, and if it's only a 1 year deal, we get the cap space back next year. It works like rolling it over, except we get a talented player for a year instead of nothing.

 

As long as the spend doesnt hinder us form signing other players for this year, then we might as well.

 

The $15M Franchise Tag number is the average of the highest paid DTs.

 

NONE of our DTs are making even close to that. We do not have high paid DTs.

 

As a positional group last year, the Bills spent the most money in the NFL on DT's at over $21 million and 10.5% of the cap.

 

Now you want them to give Phillips a franchise tag of $15.5 million and increase it to almost $30 million and take up 14.8% of the cap?  

 

You can't be serious.

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Something that jut occurred to me as I was looking at the patriots draft picks .. if we can sign him to a reasonable deal great .. but if the price gets too high .. we will end up with a nice compensatory draft pick. The smart teams have been taking advantage of this system for years. Let a guy walk for high money .. don't pay the money and get a draft pick on a cheap contract for  nothing. The not so smart teams overpay and get into cap hell .. looking at you Rams. let's be a smart team.

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10 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

As a positional group last year, the Bills spent the most money in the NFL on DT's at over $21 million and 10.5% of the cap.

 

Now you want them to give Phillips a franchise tag of $15.5 million and increase it to almost $30 million and take up 14.8% of the cap?  

 

You can't be serious.

 

Very serious. Where better to spend the money than the trenches?

 

IMO, it should be 25% of cap on OL and 25% of cap on DL as a starting point. Especially when you have a QB on a rookie deal. And doubly so when you have so many other starters on rookie deals as well.

 

The 2020 Cap is $201.2M. That gives us $50M per Line to work with.

 

According to the Spotrac Breakdown for our Positional spends we're currently at:

Offensive Line: 13.42%

Defensive Line: 15.83%

 

While we need to add to OL, we don't have any major OL contracts to hand out, and could even get away with sliding Ford to Guard and keeping Nsekhe at RT. But we still have room there either way.

 

Our DEs are fairly "set" if they wanted to roll with Murhpy. Or cut him to make up some cap room and go try to get Ngakoue.

 

That still gives us plenty of room to spend at DT in 2020 or beyond. AND sign Ngakoue or the equivalent.

 

AND still have $50M left over for UFAs to add top talent and depth to the team. A WR, TE, and OLB all at $10M each gives us $20M left over. That's still more than some teams have in TOTAL cap space to start the offseason.

 

Or mix and match some extensions in there as well. However you want to move all that money around. It's all possible.

 

We are in a very unique cap situation. Beane has set us up to make moves exactly like I'm talking about. He's not just hoarding gold like a dragon.

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2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Our entire DL "splits time". Are you saying we should never sign a DL star since they'll always be in rotation? Where better to invest than in the trenches? We still have plenty of money to make this a better/deeper team even with that theoretical signing.

 

If we were in a different cap situation, I'd agree with you. The money could be better spent elsewhere. But we have a ton of cash to spend this year. Whether it's a big, 1-year Franchise Tag deal, or a more team-friendly long term deal. We have the ability to make that deal and still have money.

 

We have our QB on a rookie deal. We control Tre's money for 2 more years. Now is the time to make such splurges in order to "win now" while that window is open.

 

Here you go-

 

image.png.c9e5ad4a9c9f92072fe6b442ebd5ee04.png

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1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Here you go-

 

image.png.c9e5ad4a9c9f92072fe6b442ebd5ee04.png

 

Another Houston guy to pair with Ed. I like it.


We'll still be spending $15.5M+/year on another "rotational" DT like a lot of fans here are opposed to.

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Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Another Houston guy to pair with Ed. I like it.


We'll still be spending $15.5M+/year on another "rotational" DT like a lot of fans here are opposed to.

He's a legit superstar imo. I thought he should have been SB MVP and if KC has to cut him loose (and it looks like they might) he would be the guy I imagine McDermott/Beane are in on. 

 

You can put him on the field w/Lotulelei or another 1tech in base but the great thing about having him and Oliver is they're both multiple and it allows for a ton of combinations...Jones can get it done at DT as well. For me he is the home run FA signing

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$15m is definitely steep for Phillips, but it’s not my money and there’s no way we won’t be well under the cap.  If he and Shaq truly want to stay, I’d do what I could to keep them.  I’d rather over-pay my own guys than free agents.  But it’s not smart to let good players go with no guarantees you’ll be able to replace them in free agency especially considering our current cap situation. 

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$15.5 mil seems like a lot for a rotational player who has had 1 good season in his 5 year career. Maybe he will repeat the performance, but the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

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6 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

Something that jut occurred to me as I was looking at the patriots draft picks .. if we can sign him to a reasonable deal great .. but if the price gets too high .. we will end up with a nice compensatory draft pick. The smart teams have been taking advantage of this system for years. Let a guy walk for high money .. don't pay the money and get a draft pick on a cheap contract for  nothing. The not so smart teams overpay and get into cap hell .. looking at you Rams. let's be a smart team.

You dont get comp picks when you have 90 million to spend in free agency.  If you franchise tag him then extend players you might get a comp pick for him when he leaves a year from now.

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as happy as i am to see one of our own outplay his contract I am inclined to see this as a product of Clappy's coaching rather than us unearthing the next Reggie White

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6 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Another Houston guy to pair with Ed. I like it.


We'll still be spending $15.5M+/year on another "rotational" DT like a lot of fans here are opposed to.


that guy is a star.  Imo

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3 hours ago, auburnbillsbacker said:

You dont get comp picks when you have 90 million to spend in free agency.  If you franchise tag him then extend players you might get a comp pick for him when he leaves a year from now.

Well you may be right .. but it really depends on how much of the 90 mil they spend on resigning their guys and how much they spend on other people’s FA

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On 2/14/2020 at 10:28 AM, DrDawkinstein said:

Our entire DL "splits time". Are you saying we should never sign a DL star since they'll always be in rotation? Where better to invest than in the trenches? We still have plenty of money to make this a better/deeper team even with that theoretical signing.

 

I think what's being said is that we don't assess Phillips as a DL star; we assess him as a very talented DL contributor who would need to develop his run D to become that thing.

 

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The more I think about the more I am fine with it.

What I imagine the bills would like is a long term deal sub 10 million, phillips I imagine wants 12 plus long term

 

The bills have the next 2 years to go all in before having to figure out a ton of expiring rookie deals, if they believe Phillips is perfect for the team and settles the DT position. They might be fine over paying a few million for one season, see if harry returns healthy and re set next off season

 

Also in my opinion the bills negotiating position strengthens when he tests the market. As I believe the bills guarenteed money portion of any contract they offer will be very competitive with offers he gets from other teams

Edited by Cheektowaga Chad

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On 2/14/2020 at 5:04 PM, without a drought said:

$15.5 mil seems like a lot for a rotational player who has had 1 good season in his 5 year career. Maybe he will repeat the performance, but the odds aren't exactly in his favor.

 

The real problem in overpaying a player is the "Diner while Dining at Crewe" phenomenon -

 

A Diner while dining at Crewe,
Found quite a large Rat in his stew,
Said the waiter, "Don't shout!
And wave it about,
Or the rest will be wanting one too."
 
If you overpay Phillips for your value on him, everybody else in the team who is negotiating contract turns and says "I want that too"
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On 2/14/2020 at 1:47 PM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Another Houston guy to pair with Ed. I like it.


We'll still be spending $15.5M+/year on another "rotational" DT like a lot of fans here are opposed to.


He’s from Mississippi?

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On 2/14/2020 at 10:28 AM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Our entire DL "splits time". Are you saying we should never sign a DL star since they'll always be in rotation? Where better to invest than in the trenches? We still have plenty of money to make this a better/deeper team even with that theoretical signing.

 

If we were in a different cap situation, I'd agree with you. The money could be better spent elsewhere. But we have a ton of cash to spend this year. Whether it's a big, 1-year Franchise Tag deal, or a more team-friendly long term deal. We have the ability to make that deal and still have money.

 

We have our QB on a rookie deal. We control Tre's money for 2 more years. Now is the time to make such splurges in order to "win now" while that window is open.

 


I mean, I think he’s just saying get a $5m guy and a $10m pass catcher 

 

or even a $5m guy, a $5m back, and a $5m upgrade elsewhere 

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1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The real problem in overpaying a player is the "Diner while Dining at Crewe" phenomenon -

 

A Diner while dining at Crewe,
Found quite a large Rat in his stew,
Said the waiter, "Don't shout!
And wave it about,
Or the rest will be wanting one too."
 
If you overpay Phillips for your value on him, everybody else in the team who is negotiating contract turns and says "I want that too"

What?

 

Teams overpay free agents or impending free agents all the time. We paid Morse a ton, is Dawkins going to hold out? We paid John Brown quite a bit, is Isaiah McKenzie demanding “that too?”

 

That’s an argument that is not supported at all in the modern NFL.

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