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DuckyBoys

Is Tre White worth top corner money?

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8 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:


Beane is the GM.   Beane was not the GM then.  
 

Our cap situation also is not the same either.  
 

So I still say this regime today has nothing to do with that first offseason where Whaley was the GM.

 

You are confused. Its ok.

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Yes and he will get paid big time by the Bills. Beane has said many times that he wants to build thru draft and then keep their core together. White is definitely part of the core group going forward.

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Yes.  And him getting all pro I think helps us believe it or not.   Tre is a good dude and wont be a diva in negotiations I dont think now that he knows he will get recognized in buffalo.  If he was ignored again he would want to be top paid.  Now I think we get a slightly team friendly deal. 

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9 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

Is any cornerback playing in a primarily zone scheme  worth paying top money?  I would not be shocked to see a CB drafted early by Buffalo How do they handle it this time after letting Gilmore walk?  I know he's under contract for 2020 just curious what you guys think is the long term plan

 

If the Bills don't think a first team All Pro CB is "worth paying top money" when they don't have any other player making top tier money at their position except for maybe Morse, they have plenty of cap space, and they have serious needs to fill at other positions, then the ghosts of Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon are alive and well at OBD.

 

8 hours ago, Mango said:


At some point you have to pay your players though. We have a lot holes to fill still and not great depth in the secondary. CB2 is an area of need. We have to stop creating new holes. 
 

He plays like a top CB, pay him like a top CB. I’d prefer if they got frugal elsewhere. 

 

This.  The Bills need to use FA and the first two days of the draft to add two big, sure-handed receivers, a better RB than Gore or Yeldon, and an edge rusher as well as maybe an OLer if they can find one.  They also need to generally upgrade their non-starter talent so that their STs can become assets rather than liabilities.  They don't need to make CB1 another Day 1 or 2 need which they've done repeatedly in the past.

 

8 hours ago, Rc2catch said:

What? Are we back to more of this? 
We draft guys. Develop them. When they are about to peak let them leave in free agency and get nothing for it. Then we cry they are great for their next team and cry that the rookie we drafted to replace them is a rookie and may struggle while he learns. At some point you HAVE to start paying the players you draft. This isn’t a holdout situation or a diva being greedy. Guy has balled out and busted butt here and is arguably the face of our defense and gameplanned for by every team we face. You reward players like that and pay them. 

 

This has been exactly why the Bills went 17 years without a playoff appearance.  They were always spinning their wheels because they were always creating holes by letting their best players walk away ... and that was most noticeable when it came to DBs.

 

8 hours ago, wppete said:


Mcdermott was the one that decided to not resign Gilmore or at least franchise him. They let him walk and a month later they Draft Tredavious White at #27 in the first round after trading down with KC to get an extra draft pick the following year that they used to Draft Josh Allen.

 

^^^

 

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

McDermott was coach when Gilmore left in FA.  He could have franchise tagged him to give time to work something out.

 

I think it's fair to say he felt Gilmore was not worth the money he'd want as a CB in the system he wanted to implement.

 

 

I don't think that McDermott can be responsible for the decision to not re-sign Gilmore; he may have agreed with it but the timeline doesn't fit for him to have made the actual decision.  It was generally speculated in the media that Gilmore wouldn't be back in 2017 before the 2016 season ended, well before McDermott was hired.   McDermott was hired in January, 2017, so he would have been on the job only a few weeks before FA started, and wouldn't have had time to supplant Whaley before the decision to let Gilmore walk was made.  The FA signing period generally starts in early March IIRC, but the teams decide which players to re-sign or franchise before that, and McDermott would have been too new to have acquired that much power.

 

Moreover, not paying outstanding players, especially DBs, for the market rate was pretty much an institutional policy under Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon ... and the GMs Donahoe, Nix, and Whaley all accepted that.   I also don't think franchise tagging Gilmore was ever even considered.  I can't think of any player the Bills franchise tagged since 2000 ... 

 

I've said it before that how the Bills handle White -- whether they re-sign him or let him walk -- will indicate whether McDermott and Beane are truly a new regime or if the legacy of Wilson and Brandon still rules the Bills.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:


Hoody paid Gilmore though, so suggest he wouldn’t agree with you..

 

And San Francisco would agree with me because the front seven are their strength.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

I don't think you fully understand zone.  Tre plays man and shuts his man down consistently.

 

Agreed.  The entire reason the Bills can play such "hide and seek" on the back end with coverages is because they have White able to lock down his man when needed so Hyde and Poyer can disguise what they are doing so well and confuse QB's.  In fact their coverage disguises are based in large part on White's ability to eliminate one side of the field, or at least one man from that side of the field.

Edited by matter2003

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1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

If the Bills don't think a first team All Pro CB is "worth paying top money" when they don't have any other player making top tier money at their position except for maybe Morse, they have plenty of cap space, and they have serious needs to fill at other positions, then the ghosts of Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon are alive and well at OBD.

 

 

This.  The Bills need to use FA and the first two days of the draft to add two big, sure-handed receivers, a better RB than Gore or Yeldon, and an edge rusher as well as maybe an OLer if they can find one.  They also need to generally upgrade their non-starter talent so that their STs can become assets rather than liabilities.  They don't need to make CB1 another Day 1 or 2 need which they've done repeatedly in the past.

 

 

This has been exactly why the Bills went 17 years without a playoff appearance.  They were always spinning their wheels because they were always creating holes by letting their best players walk away ... and that was most noticeable when it came to DBs.

 

 

^^^

 

 

I don't think that McDermott can be responsible for the decision to not re-sign Gilmore; he may have agreed with it but the timeline doesn't fit for him to have made the actual decision.  It was generally speculated in the media that Gilmore wouldn't be back in 2017 before the 2016 season ended, well before McDermott was hired.   McDermott was hired in January, 2017, so he would have been on the job only a few weeks before FA started, and wouldn't have had time to supplant Whaley before the decision to let Gilmore walk was made.  The FA signing period generally starts in early March IIRC, but the teams decide which players to re-sign or franchise before that, and McDermott would have been too new to have acquired that much power.

 

Moreover, not paying outstanding players, especially DBs, for the market rate was pretty much an institutional policy under Ralph Wilson and Russ Brandon ... and the GMs Donahoe, Nix, and Whaley all accepted that.   I also don't think franchise tagging Gilmore was ever even considered.  I can't think of any player the Bills franchise tagged since 2000 ... 

 

I've said it before that how the Bills handle White -- whether they re-sign him or let him walk -- will indicate whether McDermott and Beane are truly a new regime or if the legacy of Wilson and Brandon still rules the Bills.

 

 

 

 

Not trolling here guys.  Long off season, tired of discussing Josh and Daboll.  How were handling roster structure/money/  This is what I was getting at.  Or let me rephrase the question.  If we didnt have Tre would we bring in a top dollar corner for this particular defensive scheme? 

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If you want to be technical we have 4 more years...

2020 - Under Rookie Deal
2021 - Pick up the option before the 2020 years starts
2022 - Franchise Tag 1
2023 - Franchise Tag 2 (Provided there are no changes in the new CBA with reference to the FT)

Now this is not ideal for anyone, and obviously he wants the security of a long term deal and you don't want to be looking at that much guaranteed money hitting the cap each year, but you have time.

What I would do is pick up the 5th year option and then hammer out an extension that tacks on to the end of that. But again, YOU HAVE TIME. Figure out the best most cap efficient way to throw gobs of money at him, but also have it not hamstring you in the future. You don't want to put too much in signing bonus because it becomes amortized, and that's the stuff thats hard to get out from under late in a contract... you're wearing cap hits for money spent years prior.

Pick up the option, and while you have cap space in 2020 and 2021 see if you can figure out an extension where the bulk of the money is guaranteed. So that way you eat the cap hit in years 1 and 2 of the extension rather than spreading the cap hit over the life of the deal. He's going to want "top CB money" so something in the range of these: (source - Overthecap.com)

Player    Team    Age    Total
Value    Avg./Year    Total
Guaranteed    Fully
Guaranteed    Free
Agency
Xavien Howard    Dolphins    27    $75,250,000    $15,050,000    $46,000,000    $27,185,641    2025 UFA
Josh Norman    Redskins    33    $75,000,000    $15,000,000    $50,000,000    $36,500,000    2021 UFA
Trumaine Johnson    Jets    30    $72,500,000    $14,500,000    $45,000,000    $34,000,000    2023 UFA
Xavier Rhodes    Vikings    30    $70,100,000    $14,020,000    $40,826,000    $20,026,000    2023 UFA
Patrick Peterson    Cardinals    30    $70,050,000    $14,010,000    $48,000,000    $16,250,000    2021 UFA
Kyle Fuller    Bears    28    $56,000,000    $14,000,000    $18,000,000    $18,000,000    2022 Void
Marcus Peters    Ravens    27    $42,000,000    $14,000,000    $31,468,118    $21,000,000    2023 UFA
Desmond Trufant    Falcons    30    $68,750,000    $13,750,000    $42,026,000    $20,776,000    2023 UFA
A.J. Bouye    Jaguars    29    $67,500,000    $13,500,000    $26,000,000    $26,000,000    2022 UFA
Stephon Gilmore    Patriots    30    $65,000,000    $13,000,000    $40,000,000    $31,000,000    2022 UFA


Something like 6 year extension starting in 2021 for $75M with $45M guaranteed... $8M signing bonus amortized over the life of the deal and then you make Years 1 & 2 fully guaranteed for a total of about $20-22M and a roster bonus in 2020 of $7M.

 

Plenty of new money, but it spreads out his cap hits and by year 3 of the deal if needed you can get out of the contract... makes his overall cap hits palatable, and it gives him plenty of up front and guaranteed money as an incentive to sign a cap friendly deal.

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He's a top 5 corner and will be paid accordingly, probably by the Bills. He's a great player but everybody has strengths and weaknesses (or less strength in a performance catagory if you like). There are better CBs than Tre when in pure man coverage (though he is good). He seems to play off a lot so can be late closing on slants sometimes and I think he can be beaten over the top by a burner if 1 on 1. 

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10 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The cap situation isn't thanks to Beane. It's thanks to Beane and McDermott. The moves made by McDermott before Beane got here were already rebuild-oriented financially conservative moves, which is precisely the opposite of how things went during the years when Whaley was making the decisions.

 

The reason Beane is here is because McDermott gets along with him and has similar philosophies. McDermott was in the room when Beane was interviewed and you can bet that if he hadn't liked Beane and the way he does things, Beane wouldn't be here.

 

Whaley lost his decision-making powers very very quickly after McDermott arrived.

 

Whaley and McDermott have also made it clear that they do most of their decision-making by hashing it out and coming to consensus. Yes, if they disagree, Beane makes the decision on personnel. But they don't disagree all that much, as they've made clear. And their financial philosophies are just about the same, both pretty much right there with industry best practices.


This is not at all the same regime of McD and Whaley.  Y’all are crazy if you think otherwise.

 

And no, Beane fixed the cap.  The entire roster was over hauled and only Shaq really remains from the era prior.  

8 hours ago, BringBackOrton said:

Yeah, McD did.


Weird, I thought Brandon Beane was our GM.  :doh:

5 hours ago, wppete said:

 

You are confused. Its ok.


geezus.  It’s utterly comical some of you are trying to argue that McD and Whaley are the same regime, decision making process etc as Beane and McD.

 

Its so stupid that we might as well fire Beane and hire Whaley back.  It’s all the same to you people.  

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He'll get paid, but then the knives will start to come out afterword when expectations get raised.   

 

Tre is a top-3 zone coverage CB.   But as Hopkins said, he hasn't proven he's a man-to-man guy like Revis or even Gilmore...

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40 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:


This is not at all the same regime of McD and Whaley.  Y’all are crazy if you think otherwise.

 

And no, Beane fixed the cap.  The entire roster was over hauled and only Shaq really remains from the era prior.  


Weird, I thought Brandon Beane was our GM.  :doh:


geezus.  It’s utterly comical some of you are trying to argue that McD and Whaley are the same regime, decision making process etc as Beane and McD.

 

Its so stupid that we might as well fire Beane and hire Whaley back.  It’s all the same to you people.  


You just don’t know what you are talking about. There is no question that Mcdermott was in Charge the second he walked in the building. Mcdermott let Gilmore walk and Mcdermott was the one who was responsible for the draft not Whaley. 

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14 minutes ago, wppete said:


You just don’t know what you are talking about. There is no question that Mcdermott was in Charge the second he walked in the building. Mcdermott let Gilmore walk and Mcdermott was the one who was responsible for the draft not Whaley. 

 

You got a source on that?

 

Whaley was always good at getting his coaches the types of players they wanted. If McD took over all GM responsibility the second he walked into the building in January, there's no way Whaley sticks around and stands idley by.

 

McD had as much influence on the roster as Rex and Marrone did. That's it. He was a DC in Carolina, not a scout, not a personnel guy. Coordinators arent ready to take over building a team their first day as HC. It's not how it works.

 

If you believe McD was "responsible for the draft" and had done all his own scouting himself, and didnt use Whaley's scouting reports and information... or even worse, one of those people that believe Beane was somehow assisting McD even though he was still on Carolina payroll and hadnt even interviewed for the job yet, then you're nuts.

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15 hours ago, Estro said:

Honestly, with the way McDermott has shown he can develop corners and get them to play well:

 

Tre White

Levi Wallace

Taron Johnson 

Kevin Johnson

Siran Neal

E.J. Gaines 

 

I don't know that you pay a CB $15-$16M a year, which is probably what Tre White will be looking for.

Take the top name in that list, insert a stratosphere between that name and the rest of the list.  Then reconsider that answer.  EJ was great in that defense though but wildly injury prone.

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20 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You got a source on that?

 

Whaley was always good at getting his coaches the types of players they wanted. If McD took over all GM responsibility the second he walked into the building in January, there's no way Whaley sticks around and stands idley by.

 

McD had as much influence on the roster as Rex and Marrone did. That's it. He was a DC in Carolina, not a scout, not a personnel guy. Coordinators arent ready to take over building a team their first day as HC. It's not how it works.

 

If you believe McD was "responsible for the draft" and had done all his own scouting himself, and didnt use Whaley's scouting reports and information... or even worse, one of those people that believe Beane was somehow assisting McD even though he was still on Carolina payroll and hadnt even interviewed for the job yet, then you're nuts.


I guess you haven’t been following the Bills that closely. Look it up. I’m not wasting my time. Dorsey already discussed in an interview it was McDermott he talked to prior to the trade up not Whaley. You are wrong thinking Whaley was on charge of the free agency and draft. 

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16 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Yes 

 

close thread 

what he said

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Yes, White is as valuable as any player can be on a defense he should see an extension that kicks in during the 2021 season. 

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16 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

Is any cornerback playing in a primarily zone scheme  worth paying top money?  I would not be shocked to see a CB drafted early by Buffalo How do they handle it this time after letting Gilmore walk?  I know he's under contract for 2020 just curious what you guys think is the long term plan

 

He sucks.  Cut him.

 

***** seriously?

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