Why You Shouldn’t Feel Completely Dejected Over Josh Allen’s Poor Performance

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Not dejected.  Simply upset by Daboll's play calling and management, especially in the first quarter.  An unpaid minor could have continually called run twice, throw a deep uncatchable pass, then punt - over and over again.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

For the bolded... that's a play call.  If he is throwing to a guy at the LoS that's call.  The ball is always going there.  Doesn't matter if Beasley got open.  Beasley's job would have been to clear out then block.

 

That's like saying on a screen pass... well they had so and so open 20 yards downfield.  It doesn't matter because the call was a screen pass.

 

I don't agree, but I'll leave it.   I'd suggest a look at some of the stuff that's been written about the levels concepts the Bills are running and what Allen's progressions are in different circumstances that suggest he could make that read and choose where to go.

 

But of course in other systems and designs you'd be right and neither of us really know.

[Scott7975]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't agree, but I'll leave it.   I'd suggest a look at some of the stuff that's been written about the levels concepts the Bills are running and what Allen's progressions are in different circumstances that suggest he could make that read and choose where to go.

 

But of course in other systems and designs you'd be right and neither of us really know.

 

I will do that

[CorkScrewHill]

It was a bad game ... but if anyone thought his progress would be straight up .. you were kidding yourself. The goal is year over year improvement not week to week. All QBs have duds .. here is a stat line you might recall "14–28 for 123 yards, no TDs and 4 interceptions (including a pick six) prior to being pulled in the 4th quarter. QB rating of 22.5" What scrub was this???? Thomas Brady vs Buffalo in 2003. It sucks .. I had visions of the top playoff spot dancing in my head .. but considering I picked the Bills to be 8-8 this year .. I am pleased with where the team is and where Josh is. Next year I will be looking for even more. Go Bills! 2020 season Super Bowl contenders.

[Billsatlastin2018]

Allen was up against the NFL’s best team... and he stunk! His Deep Ball was again MIA and his general accuracy- distressing! 
 

But, on the basis of the entire year, I’m not depressed. Although, beating better teams us a prerequisite in the Playoffs! He’d better improve quickly. 

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

This is one of the most unbelievable throws I've ever seen. What a shame.

[london_bills]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is one of the most unbelievable throws I've ever seen. What a shame.

Brilliant throw amazing touch on that one. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Like many, I was really disappointed by a bad performance by Josh Allen.  I also was very annoyed to find many excuses to mask what was clearly a below average QB performance.

 

I will loop back here to say this.

 

I've seen it said on here this was Josh Allen's worst game this season (you know who you are).

 

McDermott and Daboll aren't exactly scintillating conversationalists in their pressers.  But generally speaking, they shoot straight: they say what they mean, they mean what they say.  There have been other games where they have called out Allen, not by name, but pretty pointedly "We've got to take better care of the football." "We've got to keep two hands on the football in the pocket".  "We've got to have situational awareness and take care of the football in those situations (said after a game with several picks)"  or even "He's got to take what the defense is giving him".

 

This week, I really didn't catch a hint of that from McDermott or from Daboll in their pressers.  They were all about "it takes 11 guys to execute a play on offense" and "usually it's more than 1 responsible"

 

So I don't think McDermott nor Daboll put that bad offensive performance all or predominantly on Allen. 

 

 

[london_bills]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I will loop back here to say this.

 

I've seen it said on here this was Josh Allen's worst game this season (you know who you are).

 

McDermott and Daboll aren't exactly scintillating conversationalists in their pressers.  But generally speaking, they shoot straight: they say what they mean, they mean what they say.  There have been other games where they have called out Allen, not by name, but pretty pointedly "We've got to take better care of the football." "We've got to keep two hands on the football in the pocket".  "We've got to have situational awareness and take care of the football in those situations (said after a game with several picks)"  or even "He's got to take what the defense is giving him".

 

This week, I really didn't catch a hint of that from McDermott or from Daboll in their pressers.  They were all about "it takes 11 guys to execute a play on offense" and "usually it's more than 1 responsible"

 

So I don't think McDermott nor Daboll put that bad offensive performance all or predominantly on Allen. 

 

 

What I did notice was in the post game presser, mcdermott mentioned Allen's 'overthrows' which I thought was interesting.

 

He's just stating what we all saw but in the past he would just say there are plays he wants back. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by london_bills

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, london_bills said:

What I did notice was in the post game presser, mcdermott mentioned Allen's 'overthrows' which I thought was interesting.

 

He's just stating what we all saw but in the past he would just say there are plays he wants back. 

 

That is true, but he said it in the context of broader critique.  Said we didn't get into a good rhythm offensively early, that when we get field position we have to do something with it - that can be on Josh but on play calling and OL execution too.  When asked how he'd evaluate Josh Allen first he did trot out the "some plays he'd like to have back" chestnut but then added on "some times we could have helped him out too".  Said we needed to work on "throwing and catching fundamentals".  Mentioned that we had some "players who dropped some balls, Josh had a couple of overthrows".  He got really wishy-washy when asked if it was a line of scrimmage thing, said he'd have to look at the film and give a better answer tomorrow.

 

So it seemed to me like he put Josh's miscues (the overthrows) into a context of other offensive miscues and was taking the viewpoint "plenty to spread around here".

 

Just my take perhaps.

[london_bills]

5 hours ago, MDH said:

It wasn’t a bad pass but given the coverage it wasn’t where it needed to be. Ideally the ball would have been down and away from Brown so only he could get his hands on it.

Is allen accurate enough to do this precision? I still can't work that out! ?

[london_bills]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That is true, but he said it in the context of broader critique.  Said we didn't get into a good rhythm offensively early, that when we get field position we have to do something with it - that can be on Josh but on play calling and OL execution too.  When asked how he'd evaluate Josh Allen first he did trot out the "some plays he'd like to have back" chestnut but then added on "some times we could have helped him out too".  Said we needed to work on "throwing and catching fundamentals".  Mentioned that we had some "players who dropped some balls, Josh had a couple of overthrows". 

 

So it seemed to me like he put Josh's miscues (the overthrows) into a context of other offensive miscues and was taking the viewpoint "plenty to spread around here".

 

Just my take perhaps.

Yes. Just the mention of 'overthrows' was I think the first time I heard him acknowledge what they are, in lamens terms as it were. I read this as Allen needs to be better there, which is fair.

 

Yes he mentioned about not getting into a good rythmn early (which he often says as its been an issue in earlier games), I read this partly as Daboll can help Allen to get into a rythmn with more higher percentage completions etc, which is also true. 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, london_bills said:

Yes. Just the mention of 'overthrows' was I think the first time I heard him acknowledge what they are, in lamens terms as it were. I read this as Allen needs to be better there, which is fair.

 

Yes he mentioned about not getting into a good rythmn early (which he often says as its been an issue in earlier games), I read this partly as Daboll can help Allen to get into a rythmn with more higher percentage completions etc, which is also true. 

 

 

I got to wonder what those throws look like in practice for Josh.  You can't imagine that Daboll would keep dialing them up if he never hit them or only a few times.

[london_bills]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I got to wonder what those throws look like in practice for Josh.  You can't imagine that Daboll would keep dialing them up if he never hit them or only a few times.

Exactly

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

10 hours ago, Groin said:

Allen was Real Bad yesterday.  Real Bad.  However, and without question, he gets a third year to work this out (or not).  He's not EJ Manuel fer chrissakes, and not by a long shot.  And I think that's a good thing.

 

I'm not dejected about what happened yesterday.  At all.  I just want reasonably consistent O play week after week.

 

The Bills, most likely, will make the playoffs again this year.  And they will certainly finish > .500, which is a major "yay" in the Book of Groin.  Longer term, I think they need to change O coordinator (again) and to get a couple of big, strong, and speedy guys at WR.

 

Take it from your pal, Groin.  You love this nickname, and if you deny it then you are lying.  ?

 

I donno. I kinda like "crotch" better. :Lol:

[billsfan_34]

I stopped letting people tell me how I should feel years ago ?

[Billsatlastin2018]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I got to wonder what those throws look like in practice for Josh.  You can't imagine that Daboll would keep dialing them up if he never hit them or only a few times.

That’s interesting! ?

 

Surely, he must be hitting them in practice.

 

Heard Mike Lombardi on his podcast today. Gives grudging respect to the Bills, but specifically outs Allen as being “ inaccurate” and “just not able to make the big plays”. A bit lazy with that assessment, but not far off.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Billsatlastin2018

[Mat68]

13 hours ago, MDH said:

It wasn’t a bad pass but given the coverage it wasn’t where it needed to be. Ideally the ball would have been down and away from Brown so only he could get his hands on it.

I disagree.  He is Buffalo's best wr.  Game on the line and he is 1 on 1.  Truth is Brown ran a sloppy route.  He never threatened Peters outside.  Peters was able to make a play on it.  

[123719bwiqrb]

Get better WRs, TEs and RBs.  We are married to Joshy thru 2021.

 

Keep - Brown, Beasley

Replace - Knox, WR3

Supplement - SIngletary with another real RB

 

Also continue to bring in the best 8-10 linemen you can find.  They don't have to be on the roster today.

Edited December 10, 2019 by ScotSHO

[PolishDave]

8 hours ago, london_bills said:

Yes. Just the mention of 'overthrows' was I think the first time I heard him acknowledge what they are, in lamens terms as it were. I read this as Allen needs to be better there, which is fair.

 

Yes he mentioned about not getting into a good rythmn early (which he often says as its been an issue in earlier games), I read this partly as Daboll can help Allen to get into a rythmn with more higher percentage completions etc, which is also true. 

 

 

I'm thinking Allen's problems are mostly mental/emotional coming into the games.    I don't know if it is the pressure of playing in front of a jam packed stadium full of your own fans or what.  I suspect that has a lot to do with it.   Maybe he is putting an excessive amount of pressure on himself when he runs out of that tunnel in front of tens of thousands of googly eyed fans practically worshiping him for what they think he might become.   That has to be intimidating. 

 

Perhaps the solution to the lack of consistency from Josh Allen can be found in his pregame routine for home games.   Maybe the guy needs to meet with his receivers on a practice field game day mornings (other than the stadium) for home games and throw a hundred passes before the game until his guys are catching everything he throws.   Or perhaps change his routine in some other meaningful way to get him feeling loose at the start of the games.    It's the coaches' job and Josh's job to figure that out.

 

If this offense played close to their potential with consistency as the defense mostly does, this team would beat every other team in the NFL who didn't play to their potential.

 

And they could do it as soon as this year if they could manage to get it together here at the end of the season going into the playoffs.

[Billsatlastin2018]

54 minutes ago, ScotSHO said:

Get better WRs, TEs and RBs.  We are married to Joshy thru 2021.

 

Keep - Brown, Beasley

Replace - Knox, WR3

Supplement - SIngletary with another real RB

 

Also continue to bring in the best 8-10 linemen you can find.  They don't have to be on the roster today.

They clearly need a #1 (Not that Brown is not very good) & a TE, plus O lineman.

 

All you need to know, is to watch that beast on San Fran make the critical catch against New Orleans.

 

6’ 5” minimum for a TE & no Smurf for the WR. Josh isn’t highly accurate by any means. So, that means giving him the “throw it up” option to yuuuge Receivers in the Wind, Sleet and Snow of Home Turf is ideal. OBD has never got this.

[Cripple Creek]

23 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Like many, I was really disappointed by a bad performance by Josh Allen.  I also was very annoyed to find many excuses to mask what was clearly a below average QB performance.
 

But here is the thing, Baltimore’s defense has been playing really well this season - specifically their pass defense.  While the offenses has been hyped to epic proportions by the media, the defense flies slightly under the radar.  Not unlike Buffalo, their secondary is very good.

 

In Baltimore’s 9 game win streak here is how opposing QB’s performed vs Baltimore:

 

Andy Dalton

21/39   239 yards   0 TD/1 INT

Loss 23-17

 

Russell Wilson

20/41  241 yards 1 TD/1 INT

LOSS 30-16
 

Tom Brady

30-46   285 yards  1 TD/1 INT

LOSS 37-20

 

Ryan Finley

16-31  167 yards.   1 TD/1 INT

LOSS 49-13

 

Deshaun Watson

18-29  169 yards.  0 TD/1 INT

LOSS 41-7

 

Jared Goff

26-37  212 yards   0 TD/2 INT

LOSS 45-6

 

Jimmy Garoppolo

15-21  165 yards  1 TD/1 INT

Loss 20-17

 

Josh Allen

17-39  146  1 TD/0 INT

Loss 24-17

 

So again, I’m not going to give Allen a pass.  He was below average and an average QB performance probably wins this football game.   Of course their were protection issues and dropped passes but we need to see more from Josh - especially on those deep passes that he can’t connect.

 

But outside of Wilson and Brady (2 HOF QB’s), I’m not sure that any of the other QB performances vs. the Ravens wins this football game.  Opposing QB’s have not really put up many yards against the secondary, including several “good” offenses who had opportunities to get garbage time yards.   In fact, Allen’s bad performance is close to how poorly other QB’s have performed - really bad!
 

So It’s quite possible that Sunday’s game was simply Allen struggling against a well-coaches, aggressive defense, with 2 very good corners.   It was frustrating to see our “franchise QB” play so poorly, but I also don’t think one game is enough of a sample size to overreact.  

 

 

 

 

Wow, there are a lot of crappy QBs in the league, aren't there?

 

I wish I knew what went into this game.  Why did Allen stick in the pocket and take repeated hits? Did he not recognize the blitzes? Do we not have hot reads to give him quick options to unload the ball?  Many more.  Hopefully it's a learning experience for him.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, PolishDave said:

 

I'm thinking Allen's problems are mostly mental/emotional coming into the games.    I don't know if it is the pressure of playing in front of a jam packed stadium full of your own fans or what.  I suspect that has a lot to do with it.   Maybe he is putting an excessive amount of pressure on himself when he runs out of that tunnel in front of tens of thousands of googly eyed fans practically worshiping him for what they think he might become.   That has to be intimidating. 

 

Perhaps the solution to the lack of consistency from Josh Allen can be found in his pregame routine for home games.   Maybe the guy needs to meet with his receivers on a practice field game day mornings (other than the stadium) for home games and throw a hundred passes before the game until his guys are catching everything he throws.   Or perhaps change his routine in some other meaningful way to get him feeling loose at the start of the games.    It's the coaches' job and Josh's job to figure that out.

 

If this offense played close to their potential with consistency as the defense mostly does, this team would beat every other team in the NFL who didn't play to their potential.

 

And they could do it as soon as this year if they could manage to get it together here at the end of the season going into the playoffs.

 

There's clearly a mental component to it in that, as Josh has said himself, he needed to take some of the easier throws the D is giving.  That would move the chains, flip the field, and get us into a rhythm.  But those throws were there, they would have been difference makers if he hit them, a couple times taking the shot is fine - it just went on too long.

 

As far as the misses on deep passes though,  I'm not sure going to another field would help.  Part of the problem is the nasty swirling winds in New Era.

You can't replicate them somewhere else.  Do they practice in New Era during the week?  Maybe that's part of the problem and the Bills need to set it up to have a deep throw practice IN New Era.

 

It's also a possibility that it isn't just Josh that's the difference on those overthrows.  Maybe the throws are exactly where he expects the receiver to be based on practice, but in the game the receiver 1) doesn't release as clean off the line and gets bumped off his route or held and/or 2) runs the route slightly. differently  The point isn't to make excuses for Josh, but to point out that in fact, in the game, there are other variables that you can't replicate by going to a practice field and tossing balls to his receivers (who would then go into the game with tired legs) - sheesh! 

 

What could be done though, is to time the routes precisely in practice, and then time them in the game, and see if different route running in games could be part of the issue and if so brainstorm how to adjust.

 

OK one last thing.  People talk all the time about Josh needing to throw with more of an arc so his WR can track it better.  The really long missed throws had arc to them.  Later in the game when he threw some on-target throws that were dropped by Beas and not handled by Singletary, they were flatter.  I have heard Jim Kelly on radio saying that (when Fitz was here) he talked to Fitz about needing to throw more on a line in New Era.  Maybe part of Josh's problem is being coached to throw an arc that isn't appropriate to our wind and in fact, he needs to throw flatter?  It's a trade-off though because it's more difficult for the WR to handle (Beasley makes that one if it's more of an arc)

[Don Otreply]

I don’t.

 

Go Bills!!!

[Mr. WEO]

But we were told right here all week that the Ravens D "isn't that good".

[Tenhigh]

17 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Of course the narrative is that Peters made a great play on the ball to win the game. The eye in the sky doesn’t lie. Looks like a drop by Brown and a very accurate throw by Allen. 

Brown has to box out there. 

[The Jokeman]

24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Get rid of Lee Smith. 

 

Need at least one good WR and another high round WR. 

 

A RB who is a home run threat would also be a great addition. 

And now we are hearig the Bills win easily against the Steelers.?

Considering the Steelers are playing with their 4th string  QB(they traded their then #3 to Jags after Week 1)the Bills D shouldn't have any issues stopping their O. All we need is our O to produce some points, avoid costly turnovers and a win should happen. 

[Tenhigh]

28 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

And now we are hearig the Bills win easily against the Steelers.?

What makes you think they don't?   I'm surprised by this, you're usually such an optimistic fan, always coming on after wins, lol. 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Tenhigh

[Coach Tuesday]

Part of the issue (also a good thing) is that they still don’t know/haven’t decided where his ceiling is - once they do, they can settle on what kind of complimentary pieces the offense needs in order to be successful.  Two years in a row they’re asking Allen to win games by himself.  At some point they need to put in a competent structure.  They’ve admitted they didn’t know John Brown would be this good - so what does that tell you about their strategy coming into the year?  Gore is washed.  They blew a second round pick on a guard.  They still don’t have a tight end and Baltimore has a handful.  It’s time for Beane to get his sh- together when it comes to building an offense.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, ScotSHO said:

Get better WRs, TEs and RBs.  We are married to Joshy thru 2021.

 

Keep - Brown, Beasley

Replace - Knox, WR3

Supplement - SIngletary with another real RB

 

Also continue to bring in the best 8-10 linemen you can find.  They don't have to be on the roster today.

 

Knox would be a "supplement" guy.  He's a raw rookie who has done a lot of great things and some astounding lapses. 

But we need more than 1 TE, and Kroft has not cut it.

 

4 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Part of the issue (also a good thing) is that they still don’t know/haven’t decided where his ceiling is - once they do, they can settle on what kind of complimentary pieces the offense needs in order to be successful.  Two years in a row they’re asking Allen to win games by himself.  At some point they need to put in a competent structure.  They’ve admitted they didn’t know John Brown would be this good - so what does that tell you about their strategy coming into the year?  Gore is washed.  They blew a second round pick on a guard.  They still don’t have a tight end and Baltimore has a handful.  It’s time for Beane to get his sh- together when it comes to building an offense.

 

I agree with the latter part of this, but the former part - that's a "chicken and egg" quandry.  They need to give Josh top-notch help in order to *see* where his ceiling is.

 

Josh should not have to be making passes to Knox and Singletary downfield and he needs a guy who can "box out" Peters and catch that last one.

[jrober38]

Dawson Knox is a rookie tight end who is 23rd in the NFL in yards at his position.

 

He's right behind TJ Hockenson who was the #8 overall pick in the draft this year. 

 

Do people not realize that it usually takes 2-3 years for tight ends to produce?

[thebandit27]

11 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

Dawson Knox is a rookie tight end who is 23rd in the NFL in yards at his position.

 

He's right behind TJ Hockenson who was the #8 overall pick in the draft this year. 

 

Do people not realize that it usually takes 2-3 years for tight ends to produce?

 

So many excuses for Dawson Knox. Does it take 2-3 years to learn how not to drop a critical pass that's right in your hands uncontested? Because he does it every week.

 

You can either catch the ball or not. Drops don't improve in the NFL.

Edited December 10, 2019 by thebandit27

[jrober38]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

So many excuses for Dawson Knox. Does it take 2-3 years to learn how not to drop a critical pass that's right in your hands uncontested? Because he does it every week.

 

You can either catch the ball or not. Drops don't improve in the NFL.

 

What are you suggesting?

 

Should we cut him? Is that your assessment of Dawson Knox?

[thebandit27]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

What are you suggesting?

 

Should we cut him? Is that your assessment of Dawson Knox?

 

I'm "suggesting" that a pass catcher that can't catch the ball is not much of a pass catcher.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

I'm "suggesting" that a pass catcher that can't catch the ball is not much of a pass catcher.

 

Hot take coming through.

 

I'll give him another year or two. He plays a position that arguably has the steepest learning curve in the league from college to the pro level.

 

Most rookies at his position, like the 8th overall pick in the draft, contribute very little their first season. 

[thebandit27]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

Hot take coming through.

 

I'll give him another year or two. He plays a position that arguably has the steepest learning curve in the league from college to the pro level.

 

Most rookies at his position, like the 8th overall pick in the draft, contribute very little their first season. 

 

There are very basic skills that an NFL player at his position needs to have coming into the league. Being able to catch an easy pass is one of them. He routinely drops throws that hit him cleanly in both hands. That isn't going to go away; drops just don't improve in the NFL.

 

You can be patient with him if you want; I say get a real TE.

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Pittsburgh is a terrific home team. They are historically one of the best primetime home teams in the league... if not the best. 

 

Anyone expecting an easy win is kidding themselves. Despite them having a 3rd stringer starting they are a good team and the Bills haven't beaten a good team all year.

Tennessee is a good team. I also think Dallas is good despite their record. Having said that, the Bills haven't won in Pittsburgh in the regular season since 1975.

[jrober38]

1 minute ago, thebandit27 said:

 

There are very basic skills that an NFL player at his position needs to have coming into the league. Being able to catch an easy pass is one of them. He routinely drops throws that hit him cleanly in both hands. That isn't going to go away; drops just don't improve in the NFL.

 

You can be patient with him if you want; I say get a real TE.

 

Sounds simple. How do we get a real tight end?

 

Should we spend a first round pick on one, like teams have done in recent years on guys like Hockenson, OJ Howard or Hayden Hurst to get the same production out of them that we're getting out of Dawson Knox?

[thebandit27]

Just now, jrober38 said:

 

Sounds simple. How do we get a real tight end?

 

Should we spend a first round pick on one, like teams have done in recent years on guys like Hockenson, OJ Howard or Hayden Hurst to get the same production out of them that we're getting out of Dawson Knox?

 

Nope. Spending a first on a TE is a wasted resource--they rarely produce enough.

 

But there's no reason to sign Tyler Kroft instead of Jared Cook, who's clear and away better than anything they have now.

 

Or they can go get Henry or Hooper or Ebron in FA.

 

Point is, don't put a guy on the field that can't catch 

[jrober38]

Just now, thebandit27 said:

 

Nope. Spending a first on a TE is a wasted resource--they rarely produce enough.

 

But there's no reason to sign Tyler Kroft instead of Jared Cook, who's clear and away better than anything they have now.

 

Or they can go get Henry or Hooper or Ebron in FA.

 

Point is, don't put a guy on the field that can't catch 

 

I think you fail to understand how hard it is to find a good pass catching tight end.