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Josh Allen's "awful" 1st half...THIS is the article to read

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52 minutes ago, Thurman Kelly said:

Like almost everyone here, I was glad the Bills were able to pull out this win, and Allen deserves a lot of credit for composing himself at the half (it certainly helped that the defense played great and the Jets made very little out of all those turnovers by half) and for playing an excellent 4th quarter.  Also, I don't expect a 2nd year QB who didn't start every game of his rookie season to be perfect.  I'm just looking to see enough improvement in seeing receivers open downfield, avoiding foreseeable interceptions, improved accuracy (particularly in short passing), and better decision making (particularly when it comes to throwing the ball away when nothing is there).

 

Notwithstanding that outlook, a reasonable description of his performance in the first half is "Petermanesque".  The Beasley interception was largely his fault.  He threw it behind him, if only slightly, but it was off target enough that at that range and velocity a bounce of some kind was foreseeable.  The pick 6 is entirely on him.  The first fumble was a little sloppy and little unlucky (he felt the sack coming, but didn't secure the ball to his body, or get rid of it), but the fumbled snap was on him (he left the exchange too early - I don't buy the explanation that the exchange failed because the centre was pushed back by the defense).  He wasn't to blame for the safety (unless you think he should have pushed into Gore's back when it looked like he was stacked up at the line - frankly, I don't want the starting QB to risk injury by getting involved in line play).  Let's remember that Peterman, similarly, also wasn't entirely to blame for his 5 first half interceptions, but his performance is now legend.

 

The difference is that Peterman was benched after his nightmare half, the Bills were out of the game by the time he left, and so Peterman never got the chance to "redeem" himself with a better 2nd half performance.

 

I think that Allen is much more talented than Peterman and has a much higher upside, but his performance in the first half was one of the worst ever by a Bills starting QB.

This to me is way, way off base.  I refer you to my previous post above, but to comment on stuff here I'm sorry, but when you hit an NFL receiver in the hands - in the hands- and he pops it up that is not a pick that is entirely on the QB.  It simply is not, and claiming it is is just dumb.  The fumble on the snap.  Morse hiked the ball into himself it appeared; it is not a fumble if you never even touch the ball.  The fumble on the sack entirely on Allen; he has to learn to take the sack and protect the ball.  And the other pick was a deflection and it's a crap shoot when that occurs.

 

To compare that half to Peterman, to claim it is one of the worst halves ever by a Bills QB, is so over the top it's ridiculous.  Bad breaks are not poor performance.  You ignore the fact that they were moving the ball down the field for most of the half is simply looking for reasons to be negative.  You claim you want to see improvement in seeing receivers open downfield (checked, although he could get the ball out sooner sometimes), avoiding foreseeable interceptions (the throw to the corner where it should have been picked is a throw he can't make-see my commentary above), improved accuracy (anyone who watched that game and can't see how accurate he was is either blind or refuses to see), better decision making (he went through progressions and di throw it way more - even Gannon commented on how he was doing that).  So for the most part he showed improvement in the areas you wanted to see, and that makes him Petermanesque???

 

The kid did a lot more good than bad the other day.  He  did some bad things, he'll continue to do some bad things as young QBs do, but hopefully at much lower frequencies. Yet some around here want to apparently crucify the kid for reasons that remain a mystery. 

Edited by oldmanfan
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26 minutes ago, BillsfaninSB said:

 

I agree.  The Jets game was weird and made it hard to truly evaluate QB play.  It felt kind of like a pre season game with how uneven it was.  But we did see how he handled himself under pressure.

 

We need a couple more data points. 

 

 

it was one of the more bizarre games i have seen in a long time.

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 I watched game late on dvr and cheated and checked the halftime score/stats (not final score though).  So yeah watching the game it wasn't near as bad as the stats made it out to be.  Josh did have a hand in the turnovers, no doubt but as the article points out was not result of poor decisions.  The 2 almost ints were worse than the actual turnovers. 

 

One thing too, which I doubt anyone argues, is last year's Allen / Bills team would not have won this game. 

Edited by dakrider
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1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

This is kind of absurdity that I find laughable around here.  I refer you to my previous post above, but to comment on stuff here I'm sorry, but when you hit an NFL receiver in the hands - in the hands- and he pops it up that is not a pick that is entirely on the QB.  It simply is not, and claiming it is is just dumb.  The fumble on the snap.  Morse hiked the ball into himself it appeared; it is not a fumble if you never even touch the ball.  The fumble on the sack entirely on Allen; he has to learn to take the sack and protect the ball.  And the other pick was a deflection and it's a crap shoot when that occurs.

 

To compare that half to Peterman, to claim it is one of the worst halves ever by a Bills QB, is so over the top it's ridiculous.  Bad breaks are not poor performance.  You ignore the fact that they were moving the ball down the field for most of the half is simply looking for reasons to be negative.  You claim you want to see improvement in seeing receivers open downfield (checked, although he could get the ball out sooner sometimes), avoiding foreseeable interceptions (the throw to the corner where it should have been picked is a throw he can't make-see my commentary above), improved accuracy (anyone who watched that game and can't see how accurate he was is either blind or refuses to see), better decision making (he went through progressions and di throw it way more - even Gannon commented on how he was doing that).  So for the most part he showed improvement in the areas you wanted to see, and that makes him Petermanesque???

 

The kid did a lot more good than bad the other day.  He  did some bad things, he'll continue to do some bad things as young QBs do, but hopefully at much lower frequencies. Yet some around here want to apparently crucify the kid for reasons that remain a mystery. 

 

I disagree, but I'll be a bit more respectful than you. 

 

NFL receivers typically have a large catch radius, but on the perimeter of that radius receivers stand an equal chance of either catching the ball or just deflecting it.  No point is made by stating that the pass hit Beasley's hands.  The fact is that the pass was behind him.  It was inaccurate, even though it was a short pass.  It was thrown into the middle of the field where there is less forgiveness for inaccuracy.  The best QBs don't make this mistake very often.  They make their short passes to the center of the catch radius, or at least outside of the catch radius of coverage.  That's why their INT totals are low (at least relative to their TD passes).

 

I watched the replays of the snap as well.  I saw a snap lifted to the right position.  It wasn't fumbled on the way up by the center (which you also seem to have noticed).

 

You seem to miss my point somewhat.  I didn't say he's a lost cause, or that his entire game was Petermanesque, just that the first half was.  He  did some things well during that half (just as Peterman did against the Chargers), was a little unlucky (as Peterman also was), but made far too many errors for one half of football.  If that performance had been against the Patriots and not the Jets, and had the Bills been trailing by 30 at the half, he might have found himself on the bench.  Fortunately for him, the defense gave him a second chance, and fortunately he took advantage of that opportunity and played well in the second half (and eliminated his 1st half errors).

 

I think he's still the best chance we have to win, both now and in the immediate future, but let's not pretend he didn't have an awful first half last week.

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13 minutes ago, Thurman Kelly said:

 

I disagree, but I'll be a bit more respectful than you. 

 

NFL receivers typically have a large catch radius, but on the perimeter of that radius receivers stand an equal chance of either catching the ball or just deflecting it.  No point is made by stating that the pass hit Beasley's hands.  The fact is that the pass was behind him.  It was inaccurate, even though it was a short pass.  It was thrown into the middle of the field where there is less forgiveness for inaccuracy.  The best QBs don't make this mistake very often.  They make their short passes to the center of the catch radius, or at least outside of the catch radius of coverage.  That's why their INT totals are low (at least relative to their TD passes).

 

I watched the replays of the snap as well.  I saw a snap lifted to the right position.  It wasn't fumbled on the way up by the center (which you also seem to have noticed).

 

You seem to miss my point somewhat.  I didn't say he's a lost cause, or that his entire game was Petermanesque, just that the first half was.  He  did some things well during that half (just as Peterman did against the Chargers), was a little unlucky (as Peterman also was), but made far too many errors for one half of football.  If that performance had been against the Patriots and not the Jets, and had the Bills been trailing by 30 at the half, he might have found himself on the bench.  Fortunately for him, the defense gave him a second chance, and fortunately he took advantage of that opportunity and played well in the second half (and eliminated his 1st half errors).

 

I think he's still the best chance we have to win, both now and in the immediate future, but let's not pretend he didn't have an awful first half last week.

I will respectfully disagree.  I have said here many times, and some disagree, that there is a difference between accuracy and precision.  The pass that was the pick 6 is a perfect example.  It was accurate, it hit the WR in the hands.  Accuracy is how close you are to a given target, , and by any measure that pass was accurate.  It could have been more precise, i.e. hitting a specific spot.  Now from my measure that throw could have been maybe 4 inches more to the left.  But I'm sorry, NFL WR's who get hit right in the hands (and the pass was low, where it should have been away from the defender)  get paid to catch that pass.  To somehow conflate that with some of the terrible Peterman picks is just looking to be overly negative, in my opinion.

 

The bad snap.  Snaps are between a C and QB.  It looked  to me (and to Gannon) that the snap was on the C. But again to place all the blame on Allen when, at the least, a poor snap involves both parties. 

 

The other pick.  A tipped ball which is a crap shoot.  And the other fumble that was on him as a said above.

 

Three fo the four issues were not truly his, but if you watch the half objectively you see that the team was moving very well offensively, and some dumb luck and dumb penalties such as Feliciano kept them from scoring.  Your conclusion that he was Petermanesque, that it was one of the worst halves of football ever by a Bills QB, and so on, is just over the top.  I go back to 1960 with this team and there have been plenty of QBs that have had worse halves.  If you can, go back and watch the replay, look at every throw he made, then tell me he was inaccurate and so on.  If you're being objective you'll find he wasn't.

Edited by oldmanfan
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3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I will respectfully disagree.  I have said here many times, and some disagree, that there is a difference between accuracy and precision.  The pass that was the pick 6 is a perfect example.  It was accurate, it hit the WR in the hands.  Accuracy is how close you are to a given target, , and by any measure that pass was accurate.  It could have been more precise, i.e. hitting a specific spot.  Now from my measure that throw could have been maybe 4 inches more to the left.  But I'm sorry, NFL WR's who get hit right in the hands (and the pass was low, where it should have been away from the defender)  get paid to catch that pass.  To somehow conflate that with some of the terrible Peterman picks is just looking to be overly negative, in my opinion.

 

The bad snap.  Snaps are between a C and QB.  It looked  to me (and to Gannon) that the snap was on the C. But again to place all the blame on Allen when, at the least, a poor snap involves both parties. 

 

The other pick.  A tipped ball which is a crap shoot.  And the other fumble that was on him as a said above.

 

Three fo the four issues were not truly his, but if you watch the half objectively you see that the team was moving very well offensively, and some dumb luck and dumb penalties such as Feliciano kept them from scoring.  Your conclusion that he was Petermanesque, that it was one of the worst halves of football ever by a Bills QB, and so on, is just over the top.  I go back to 1960 with this team and there have been plenty of QBs that have had worse halves.  If you can, go back and watch the replay, look at every throw he made, then tell me he was inaccurate and so on.  If you're being objective you'll find he wasn't.

I agree with you that the pass to Beasely was clearly inside the radius.  It was a tough pass and catch in the circumstance.  The fact that an interception was the result of that play was highly unlikely.  We're giving it way too much time and energy.

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6 hours ago, RobbRiddick said:

As I've said 100 times, Allen will make errant throws every game. So long as he offsets a bad int in a game with 2 or 3 td passes, who gives a *****? 

 

I would tend to agree but I cant recall any "most errant" throws Sunday, were some off, yes for sure

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Tony Romo threw 5 real interceptions in a game......and came back to beat us

 

I am not saying ball control is not important it def is.......but the ability to win games down...in someone elses house.....also cannot be overstated.

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1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:

Tony Romo threw 5 real interceptions in a game......and came back to beat us

 

I am not saying ball control is not important it def is.......but the ability to win games down...in someone elses house.....also cannot be overstated.

To  win

 

1) on the road

2) vs a divisional rival

3) being -4 in the turnover dept and all at the hands of the QB

4) be down by 16 late in Q3

 

All these combined are pretty darn amazing, especially for the Buffallo Bills and a 2nd year somewhat raw QB

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1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

I mean Allen was locked in that drive he didn't really miss going 8/10 and the two uncompleted being a throwaway and a perfect pass dropped by Beasley. It's possible it was off but it'd have to of been off in a way that coincided with reading the defender perfectly.

Like I said. I’m a huge Allen fan and I hope I’m just overreacting. 

1 hour ago, MDH said:

 

Yeah, it wasn't really back shoulder, it was too far inside to be that.

 

He still gave his best playmaker a chance to win a one on one battle which is what I want to see.

Exactly this 

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25 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

The bad snap.  Snaps are between a C and QB.  It looked  to me (and to Gannon) that the snap was on the C. But again to place all the blame on Allen when, at the least, a poor snap involves both parties. 

 

I think of snaps like Formula 1 pit stops.  In Formula 1, the driver waits for his tires to be changed.  He wants to leave as soon as they are.  The mechanics try to get the tires to where they have to be as fast as possible.  However, if the driver is released before they are properly secured in place, or the driver leaves without being released, the mistake is on the crew member releasing the car, or on the driver, not on the mechanic.

 

The ball was snapped to where it needed to be.  Perhaps it was not snapped fast enough.  However, Peterman left the exchange too quickly and without the ball.  He simply cannot do that.  In those circumstances, the fumble was on him.

 

It's not too different from throwing to receivers.  The QB has to throw to where the receiver will be, WHEN he will actually be there, and not when he thought he would be there based on practice or the play design.  He has to adjust to the actual game state.

Edited by Thurman Kelly
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Just now, Thurman Kelly said:

 

I think of snaps like Formula 1 pit stops.  In Formula 1, the driver waits for his tires to be changed.  He wants to leave as soon as they are.  The mechanics try to get the tires to where they have to be as fast as possible.  However, if the driver is released before they are properly secured in place, or the driver leaves without being released, the mistake is on the crew member releasing the car, or on the driver, not on the mechanic.

 

The ball was snapped to where it needed to be.  Perhaps it was not snapped fast enough.  However, Peterman left the exchange too quickly and without the ball.  He simply cannot do that.  In those circumstances, the fumble was on him.

We will simply have to disagree on the snap being where it needed to be.  And it wasn’t Peterman.

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1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

We will simply have to disagree on the snap being where it needed to be.  And it wasn’t Peterman.

 

Sorry for the typo.  I was getting Peterman and Allen confused during that first half! :)

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I rewatched the game and Allen looked a lot better than my initial reaction on the GDT. Just like the Bills I will get better each week.

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59 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Why do we say this.  Because you're being ridiculous.  See my post above, and then see what you wrote here.  You claim he made way to many mistakes and then cite ONE PASS. 

 

Do this.  go back and actually watch the game.  Go back and chart each throw, hen tell me he made way too many mistakes.  Tell me he was inaccurate.  If you do, it will confirm you simply want to slam the kid for no reason. 

 

 

 

I listed only one of his mistakes in a reply to another poster who pointed out a few others because it isn't necessary to write a full dissertation each time you make a point. 

 

Josh had a hand in four turnovers. A fifth was called back on a penalty that didn't impact the play and a sixth didn't happen due to an egregious drop by a Jets DB. I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest it was a bad day.

 

I read your post and I read Thurman Kelly's reply to you. I agree with his take. Further, I don't understand why you think nobody watches the games. I will go out on a limb and guess that the vast majority here not only watch the games but likely re-watch parts of them. I certainly do. I suspect people writing about the games for a living do as well given it's their job and all. The only people involved who are truly biased are us as fans. 

 

I've noticed you quote me a lot to tell me how ridiculous or idiotic or whatever you think I am. Let's remember we're both huge Bills fans so even though we disagree we probably have more common than you think ;)     

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13 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

I listed only one of his mistakes in a reply to another poster who pointed out a few others because it isn't necessary to write a full dissertation each time you make a point. 

 

Josh had a hand in four turnovers. A fifth was called back on a penalty that didn't impact the play and a sixth didn't happen due to an egregious drop by a Jets DB. I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest it was a bad day.

 

I read your post and I read Thurman Kelly's reply to you. I agree with his take. Further, I don't understand why you think nobody watches the games. I will go out on a limb and guess that the vast majority here not only watch the games but likely re-watch parts of them. I certainly do. I suspect people writing about the games for a living do as well given it's their job and all. The only people involved who are truly biased are us as fans. 

 

I've noticed you quote me a lot to tell me how ridiculous or idiotic or whatever you think I am. Let's remember we're both huge Bills fans so even though we disagree we probably have more common than you think ;)     

My apologies for being too strident.  I am referring to opinions and not the person but I should tamp it down.

 

It seems to me that some around here place unrealistic expectations on our QB.  When a pass hits a WR right in the hands, and yet you blame the QB, that is unreasonable. The reason I ask if people watch the games is, if one does and really looks at each pass from this last game, Allen was right there on the vast majority of throws.  Yet he still gets this inaccuracy stuff.  I did the same for his last couple games last year as did others here and we agreed he was on target, his inaccuracy was overblown.  If you watch the game from Sunday I would estimate over 80% of targeted throws (non-throwaways) were on target..  All offseason all we heard is his completion percentage being under 60%.  Sunday was 65%, and what happens?  Look for other things to pick on.

 

You say he had a hand in four turnovers.  That is far from saying he was responsible.  Again when you hit an NFL WR in the hands it is not right to put it on him.  When a guy tips a ball and it becomes a free for all that is a great play by the defender.  And so on.

 

I will refer you to my longer comments a page or two back.  He made some mistakes as all young QBs fo.  But it is becoming increasingly apparent to me that, for some, Allen will never be good enough.  And I can only assume it’s because they were disappointed when he was drafted and refuse to have that opinion be altered.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

I listed only one of his mistakes in a reply to another poster who pointed out a few others because it isn't necessary to write a full dissertation each time you make a point. 

 

Josh had a hand in four turnovers. A fifth was called back on a penalty that didn't impact the play and a sixth didn't happen due to an egregious drop by a Jets DB. I don't think it's ridiculous to suggest it was a bad day.

 

I read your post and I read Thurman Kelly's reply to you. I agree with his take. Further, I don't understand why you think nobody watches the games. I will go out on a limb and guess that the vast majority here not only watch the games but likely re-watch parts of them. I certainly do. I suspect people writing about the games for a living do as well given it's their job and all. The only people involved who are truly biased are us as fans. 

 

I've noticed you quote me a lot to tell me how ridiculous or idiotic or whatever you think I am. Let's remember we're both huge Bills fans so even though we disagree we probably have more common than you think ;)     

I won't go into what occurred on each of the turnovers; however, NONE of them were due to poor play, poor mechanics, or poor decisions by Allen. The interception that was negated by penalty and the "almost" interception were not great decisions, but, every QB has a couple passes a game that could be questioned in regard to judgement and a pass or two that "could have been" intercepted. He threw the ball 37 times and you would have a hard time objectively identifying even a handful that were innacurate or bad decisions.

 

For the most part, Allen was poised, accurate, made good decisions, had sound mechanics, read the defenses well, moved the ball all day, and, oh yeah, he led the team on two 80+ yd TD drives in the fourth quarter to win the game.

 

To say Allen had a bad day is simply wrong and not supported by an objective evaluation of his play.

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11 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I won't go into what occurred on each of the turnovers; however, NONE of them were due to poor play, poor mechanics, or poor decisions by Allen. The interception that was negated by penalty and the "almost" interception were not great decisions, but, every QB has a couple passes a game that could be questioned in regard to judgement and a pass or two that "could have been" intercepted. He threw the ball 37 times and you would have a hard time objectively identifying even a handful that were innacurate or bad decisions.

 

For the most part, Allen was poised, accurate, made good decisions, had sound mechanics, read the defenses well, moved the ball all day, and, oh yeah, he led the team on two 80+ yd TD drives in the fourth quarter to win the game.

 

To say Allen had a bad day is simply wrong and not supported by an objective evaluation of his play.

On one of those interceptions I think Josh knew he had a free play due to the flag and took a shot.....

 

The almost int on the side line?  I didnt like that one......it doesnt happen a lot because he puts so much on the ball

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7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

On one of those interceptions I think Josh knew he had a free play due to the flag and took a shot.....

 

The almost int on the side line?  I didnt like that one......it doesnt happen a lot because he puts so much on the ball

Yeah, he is going to make those throws now and then. I know I am in the minority here; however, I don't really mind it. It is part of who he is as a QB. He is showing he can take those short throws, but, he is still a guy that is always looking downfield for that big play - and I love that. He is going to have some turnovers wioth that mentality - and he is going to make some pretty big plays as well.

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6 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Yeah, he is going to make those throws now and then. I know I am in the minority here; however, I don't really mind it. It is part of who he is as a QB. He is showing he can take those short throws, but, he is still a guy that is always looking downfield for that big play - and I love that. He is going to have some turnovers wioth that mentality - and he is going to make some pretty big plays as well.

One of the things that irritate me is that if you have a QB that takes the short throw a lot (Edwards??), folks clamor for him to take more shots downfield and they’ll be OK with interceptions.  But then when you have a QB that takes those shots, nope.  They should check it down more.

 

That said, Allen needs to learn his arm isn’t strong enough to throw past NFL defenders when scrambling like that.

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1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

I would tend to agree but I cant recall any "most errant" throws Sunday, were some off, yes for sure

I tend to think of the one where he was running to his right and threw one towards the endzone that should have been picked off. 

 

I should clarify what I meant in my post. I don't so much mean bad throws as bone headed throws. Like the preseason one and a few from last year, the ones where you think why they hell did he even try that. But it goes back to my Favre comparison. He had maybe more boneheaded throws than any successful QB I've ever seen (Elway had a lot too) but it was just because he had so much faith in his arm. And also because he wouldn't lose confidence and would come right back on the next drive and make a spectacular play. 

 

I see elements of that in Allen, so I'm OK with the occasional head scratcher because if he tried to eliminate that part of his game I think it would negatively affect some of the good parts as well 

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1 hour ago, Thurman Kelly said:

 

Sorry for the typo.  I was getting Peterman and Allen confused during that first half! :)

And therein lies your problem. You shouldn’t have. 

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12 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

One of the things that irritate me is that if you have a QB that takes the short throw a lot (Edwards??), folks clamor for him to take more shots downfield and they’ll be OK with interceptions.  But then when you have a QB that takes those shots, nope.  They should check it down more.

 

That said, Allen needs to learn his arm isn’t strong enough to throw past NFL defenders when scrambling like that.

Something tells me he will be better at it; however, I don't think it will ever be eliminated from his game. It is in his DNA. Allen is a downfield thrower and loves to live in that 20-25 yard range. As a fan, I am willing to live with those occasional throws he "shouldn't" attempt because, in the end, I think he will make far more good plays than bad.

 

He is exactly the kind of QB I have been waiting for for this team.  

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3 hours ago, mrags said:

The only thing I didn’t agree with was the TD to Brown when he said it was a perfectly placed back shoulder throw. 

 

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard in WGR yesterday, some with the team said it wasn’t intended to be a back shoulder throw. That he just threw it up and gave Brown a chance at it. If that was Joshs intent to put it in that spot, then great, but if he just “threw it up for a chance at it” and that’s what we got, I’m not 100% super duper excited about it. I mean it worked and we won the game because of it, but that doesn’t mean it was an accurately placed throw like the article states. 

 

In Dabolls presser yesterday at about the 8 min mark he talked about this. They were doing red zone one-on-ones, with John Brown vs Tre White, running the same route, opposite side of the field. White was taking away the deep stuff so Josh and Brown practiced the back shoulder or under throw or whatever you wanna call it.

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I've been highly critical of Allen and he did throw some off target passes. I also thought he did get rattled into more bad decisions than you'd like when forced to move off his spot (like throwing across his body or not seeing a defender like when Maye dropped a sure pick). All QB's are worse under pressure, but some handle it better than others. Still, most of his passes were dimes unlike last year where receivers had to adjust to the ball so often. The OL may need another offseason to be solid, but if they are just above average, that will really help. I am encouraged.

 

A couple thoughts on his fumbles:  I think his first instinct on the 1st one should have been to put 2 hands on the ball. Fingers are better for grabbing things than elbows. Also, I think he needs to quit with that fake pass/deke move when he's running to try to get a defender to hesitate. One of these days, somebody is going to swat the ball out of his hand while he's holding it away from his body with 1 hand like that. Also, he's often past the LOS when he does it. Just my 2 cents.

Edited by GreggTX

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