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Josh Allen's "awful" 1st half...THIS is the article to read

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4 hours ago, mrags said:

The only thing I didn’t agree with was the TD to Brown when he said it was a perfectly placed back shoulder throw. 

 

I could be wrong, but I thought I heard in WGR yesterday, some with the team said it wasn’t intended to be a back shoulder throw. That he just threw it up and gave Brown a chance at it. If that was Joshs intent to put it in that spot, then great, but if he just “threw it up for a chance at it” and that’s what we got, I’m not 100% super duper excited about it. I mean it worked and we won the game because of it, but that doesn’t mean it was an accurately placed throw like the article states. 

 

I'll go with Kubiack here who thought it was a great throw.  From what we know about that play:

 

*  I saw an analysis showing how Allen froze the Safety in place on that play with his eyes which resulted in Brown getting single coverage.

 

*  With Brown seeing single coverage he EXPECTED Allen to throw the ball back shoulder (under throw) based on the fact that the Jet's corner had taken away the over the top throw.  Which given the situation - Jet's up by 6 under 4 minutes to play - one would expect a CB to do.  No way is the Jets defense going to get beat over the top here.  For this reason, at the snap Brown probably figured that if Allen could look the safety off then the ONLY play to be made would be the back shoulder throw.

 

*  It was obvious by the SMOOTH way in which Brown caught the pass and made a move to score the TD that this was exactly the pass he expected to get.

 

*  We also know from reports that Allen & Brown have worked on this pass a lot during the preseason.

 

 

Edited by CincyBillsFan

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9 hours ago, Chris from Rochester said:

Not to sound cheap, but is it worth subscribing to the athletic? I feel like most of these writers are worse then the people we have on TSW. For those who have it, do you get your moneys worth? 

 

Yes, it's worth it...

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9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's an excellent read, thanks.   I would phrase it perhaps a bit differently - Allen indeed had an awful first half, because any QB who's team has 4 TO had an awful first half.  But he also did a lot of good things.  Kubiak absolves Allen for the first 2 TO and puts it more on Dawkins (who did get beaten like a drum, but that's gonna happen from time to time).  Compare and contrast to Daboll (TBN, paywall), who is measured about mistakes and upbeat about Allen:
“There’s always a reason for a turnover,” Daboll said. “Whether it’s ball location, finishing a catch, an arm angle. We’re not about making excuses, but there’s going to be some that take bad bounces and that’s football. But you can always look to improve. We have to get the quarterback-center exchange taken care of. We have to keep two hands on the ball in the pocket. We have to make a play when it comes our way even if it’s a little bit low. So, we can do a better a job of that, we need to do a better job with that, that’s where it starts. And again, some are bounces you’re going to have to overcome.”

 

While he's not throwing anyone under the bus, I think that what Daboll says there is a pretty good clue to the thinking of the guy whose job it is to watch film and get the offense on track assigns responsibility.  The strip-sack fumble is on Allen.  He sensed the defender coming and put out his L arm to push him off rather than covering up the football with both arms and tucking himself around it.  He puts the INT more on Beasley - Allen's throw was low, but catchable, and they paid Beasley to make those plays.  The fumbled snap is on both of them, they have to get it straight.  And he pretty much thinks the deflected INT was a fluke they have to overcome.

 

 

Good observation regarding Daboll's words.

 

We as fans, are subjective most of the times, we can excuse Allen or throw him under the bus as our bias see fit but it's important that the guys in his ear, whether it's Daboll or Ken Dorsey,  remain objective and to the point of the things he needs to get better at. Taking care of the football should be priority, and I'm sure Allen will learn from Sunday's game.

 

For example, it was second down when Dawkins gets beat and Josh fumbles the ball, instead of trying to escape a sure sack, the priority has to be protecting the ball and live to fight another battle, a positive play on third down might put us in a position to score, at least, a FG.

 

 

 

Edited by Fixxxer

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11 hours ago, Chris from Rochester said:

Not to sound cheap, but is it worth subscribing to the athletic? I feel like most of these writers are worse then the people we have on TSW. For those who have it, do you get your moneys worth? 

Tightwad.

 

The Athletic is great if you're into detailed, informative analysis and worth the few bucks.

Edited by LSHMEAB

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5 hours ago, mrags said:

Like I said. I’m a huge Allen fan and I hope I’m just overreacting. 

Exactly this 

I don't think you were overreacting. It wasn't a great throw. It was a good throw. The ball was placed in a spot that gave Brown and not the DB a chance to adjust to the ball, but based on the way it came out(a bit of a duck), it most likely wasn't precisely where he intended to place it. Nevertheless, I'd much rather see that than see him fire it inaccurately to a spot that DIDN'T give Brown a chance to make the play. Not a TERRIFIC throw, but an effective throw. I'll take that.

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On 9/10/2019 at 12:13 PM, billsfan1959 said:

I won't go into what occurred on each of the turnovers; however, NONE of them were due to poor play, poor mechanics, or poor decisions by Allen. The interception that was negated by penalty and the "almost" interception were not great decisions, but, every QB has a couple passes a game that could be questioned in regard to judgement and a pass or two that "could have been" intercepted. He threw the ball 37 times and you would have a hard time objectively identifying even a handful that were innacurate or bad decisions.

 

For the most part, Allen was poised, accurate, made good decisions, had sound mechanics, read the defenses well, moved the ball all day, and, oh yeah, he led the team on two 80+ yd TD drives in the fourth quarter to win the game.

 

To say Allen had a bad day is simply wrong and not supported by an objective evaluation of his play.

 

Here are a few others that might be worth a second look: 

 

-the first half side arm throw to Zay out to the right that was no where near on target

-the first half deep ball to Zay down the left side line that landed 10 yards over his head

-the miss short left to Beasley on the drive with the botched snap

-the miss to Knox on the cross in the 3rd where he got spun around 180 degrees because the ball was so far behind him

-the negated turnover in the 3rd

-the should-have-been-a-turnover drop by the Jets DB down the right sideline in the 3rd 

-the under throw in the endzone that would have been a pick had Mosley just turned around instead of going for the break up

 

RE the actual INTs: 1. the Beasley tipped ball was low and behind him (i.e. away from his momentum). Rich Gannon put that one on Allen in the moment though I agree Beasley needs to shoulder responsibility there as well. As an aside, it looked a lot like a bunch of the missed connections with Zay from last year where poor ball placement contributed to the incompletion; 2. The Mosley tipped ball is on Allen. Mosley was a free rusher in Josh's direct line of sight and he threw it right at him. If Mosley had been preoccupied by a blocker and managed to get an arm free to tip it then I'd say great play, but that's not what happened. You can't expect to throw it directly above a free rusher's head and claim bad luck when he gets his hands (plural) on it. The fact it turned into an INT was a little unlucky but the ball getting tipped at the line wasn't.     

 

RE the fumbles: Dabol seemed to put the strip sack on Allen in his post game noting he has to do a better job with ball security. It's not like he got blindsided. The botched snap was tough given the lack of training camp reps between Allen and Morse. Hopefully that was the first and last time that happens.

 

Despite all of that I thought Josh did some things well on Sunday (e.g sustained drives, quicker decision making). His improvement over last season is already evident, but given the number of poor plays I don't see how we can say he had a good game. 

Edited by VW82

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22 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Here are a few others that might be worth a second look: 

 

-the first half side arm throw to Zay out to the right that was no where near on target.

-the first half deep ball to Zay down the left side line that landed 10 yards over his head. 

-the miss short left to Beasley on the drive with the botched snap. 

-the miss to Knox on the cross in the 3rd where he got spun around 180 degrees because the ball was so far behind him. A little behind but catchable

-the negated turnover in the 3rd

-the should-have-been-a-turnover drop by the Jets DB down the right sideline in the 3rd 

-the under throw in the endzone that would have been a pick had Mosley just turned around instead of going for the break up

 

RE the actual INTs: 1. the Beasley tipped ball was low and behind him (i.e. away from his momentum). Rich Gannon put that one on Allen in the moment though I agree Beasley needs to shoulder responsibility there as well. As an aside, it looked a lot like a bunch of the missed connections with Zay from last year where poor ball placement contributed to the incompletion; 2. The Mosley tipped ball is on Allen. Mosley was a free rusher in Josh's direct line of sight and he threw it right at him. If Mosley been preoccupied by a blocker and managed to get an arm free to tip it then I'd say great play, but that's not what happened. You can't expect to throw it directly above a free rusher's head and claim bad luck when he gets his hands (plural) on it. The fact it turned into an INT was a little unlucky but the ball getting tipped at the line wasn't.     

 

Again, Josh did some things well on Sunday. His improvement over last season is already evident, but given the number of poor plays I don't see how we can say he had a good game. 

Your analyses and my responses in red:

 

-the first half side arm throw to Zay out to the right that was no where near on target. So disingenuous. Allen threw this ball away while on the run from defensive pressure.

-the first half deep ball to Zay down the left side line that landed 10 yards over his head. Wow. A ball that was 50 yards in the air and he missed Jones

-the miss short left to Beasley on the drive with the botched snap. The only miss to Beasley on that drive was a tipped pass at the line. Again, so disingenuous.

-the miss to Knox on the cross in the 3rd where he got spun around 180 degrees because the ball was so far behind him. Such hyperbole. A little behind but catchable (See photo below)

-the negated turnover in the 3rd Ill advised throw

-the should-have-been-a-turnover drop by the Jets DB down the right sideline in the 3rd  Ill advised throw  Ill advised throw

-the under throw in the endzone that would have been a pick had Mosley just turned around instead of going for the break up Mosley barely got a blind hand out or it would have been a touchdown - again on a throw that travelled over 45 yards in the air.

 

Seriously? Your dislike for Allen is constantly in display in your posts with your constant innacuracies and hyperbole.  You will say anything to prove yourself right. In my post, I stated you might find a handful of plays I would consider bad plays on Allen's part. Your response is to list plays where you completely mischaracterize what actually happened - and you still couldn't come up with more than a handful of legitimately bad plays.

 

What a joke.

Knox.jpg

Mosley breakup.jpg

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45 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Your analyses and my responses in red:

 

-the first half side arm throw to Zay out to the right that was no where near on target. So disingenuous. Allen threw this ball away while on the run from defensive pressure. He threw the ball from the pocket. The ball landed in bounds between a bunch of Jets players. It definitely wasn't a throwaway. Perhaps you're thinking of a different throw. 

-the first half deep ball to Zay down the left side line that landed 10 yards over his head. Wow. A ball that was 50 yards in the air and he missed Jones. Yes, he missed him by 8-10 yards.

-the miss short left to Beasley on the drive with the botched snap. The only miss to Beasley on that drive was a tipped pass at the line. Again, so disingenuous. I might have messed this one up. I'm doing it from memory. Now that I think about it the pass was short right not left. Pretty sure it was 1st q. I'll try and find it.

-the miss to Knox on the cross in the 3rd where he got spun around 180 degrees because the ball was so far behind him. Such hyperbole. A little behind but catchable (See photo below). I'll admit your photo changes my opinion somewhat. It's still poor ball placement and throw he should have made. 

-the negated turnover in the 3rd Ill advised throw

-the should-have-been-a-turnover drop by the Jets DB down the right sideline in the 3rd  Ill advised throw  Ill advised throw

-the under throw in the endzone that would have been a pick had Mosley just turned around instead of going for the break up Mosley barely got a blind hand out or it would have been a touchdown - again on a throw that travelled over 45 yards in the air. In this case, I think your photo proves my point though I agree it's nitpicking 

 

Seriously? Your dislike for Allen is constantly in display in your posts with your constant innacuracies and hyperbole.  You will say anything to prove yourself right. In my post, I stated you might find a handful of plays I would consider bad plays on Allen's part. Your response is to list plays where you completely mischaracterize what actually happened - and you still couldn't come up with more than a handful of legitimately bad plays. Seriously? You quoted me. I just responded to defend my position and now you're getting all bent out of shape about it. I think the reason you quoted me in the first place is because I make valid points and actually try to back them up with context. God forbid anyone takes a critical view of Allen's play, especially if it sounds credible. You may have noticed that many others on here (including mods) and elsewhere thought he had a tough day (at least through three quarters) as well. I provided ten examples of plays I thought Allen erred, including inaccurate throws, poor decisions, INTs, almost INTs, and a fumbles. Like, that's not enough?

 

Again, there were things I liked about Allen's game on Sunday. He did a lot right. I think he's improving, and despite what you might think I'm a fan of his and want to see him succeed. But I'm not going to bury my head in the sand when he has a bad day overall and pretend like it didn't happen.      

 

 

Edited by VW82

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31 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Seriously? You quoted me. I just responded to defend my position and now you're getting all bent out of shape about it. I think the reason you quoted me in the first place is because I make valid points and actually try to back them up with context. God forbid anyone takes a critical view of Allen's play, especially if it sounds credible. You may have noticed that many others on here (including mods) and elsewhere thought he had a tough day (at least through three quarters) as well. I provided ten examples of plays I thought Allen erred, including inaccurate throws, poor decisions, INTs, almost INTs, and a fumbles. Like, that's not enough?

 

Again, there were things I liked about Allen's game on Sunday. He did a lot right. I think he's improving, and despite what you might think I'm a fan of his and want to see him succeed. But I'm not going to bury my head in the sand when he has a bad day overall and pretend like it didn't happen.    

I responded to your post, not because I thought you had valid points, but because it was a post in response to something I had written. While I do think you make some valid points, I also think you tend to see what you want to see.

 

He didn't have a bad day overall. He completed 65% of his passes and had at least 5 other passes that should have or could have been completions. He moved the ball well all day against a pretty good defense. He was poised in the pocket, made good defensive reads at the line, was accurate on most of his throws, and made good decisions on most of his plays. Not one of the four turnovers was a result of him trying to do too much, making a poor decision, or just making a poor play. He led the team on two 80+ yard drives in the fourth quarter, on the road, to win the game. All in his 12th NFL game.

 

Was he perfect? No. Does he have room to grow? Absolutely. But to say he had an overall bad day is to nitpick plays to an absurd degree. I don't think anyone has a problem with legitimate, reasonable criticism of Allen; however There is a portion of this fanbase that wants to hold Allen to a standard they wouldn't hold any other QB. Go watch every other game this past weekend and you will find a number of plays on the part of every QB that is inaccurate, a poor decision, a near turnover, an actual turnover, etc.

 

We can agree to disagree. 

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1 hour ago, VW82 said:

 

I rewatched the first half last night.  The only two passes you could say he missed were the overthrow to Jones down the left side, and he threw wide to Beasley on a 10-15 yard throw to the right side.  Every other throw was on target including the pick 6.  I say again and will continue to say that when you hit a guy in the hands it cannot be totally in the QB.  The tipped pass INT was a good play by the defender.  The fumble was his fault, he needs to take the sack.  The bad snap is just that.

 

Nitpicking a young QB can be fun and clever I suppose but has no basis in reality in terms of his long term potential.  It ignores that it takes two to tango and in that regard I always think back to one of the most historical plays in NFL history.  The Catch.  Some think Montana was trying to throw it out of the end zone but Clark goes way up there and makes a legendary catch.  Did Montana make a bad throw?  No. 

 

If Allen has thrown such a ball Sunday and say Zay went high up there to make the catch, what we’d be reading from some here is how it was a horrible throw, that Zay saved Allen, that he should have seen a different guy open, etc. , etc.  and that just gets to the point where criticism gets overblown.  QBs aren’t perfect.  And younger QBs more so.

 

 

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I tune it out, but I was kicked off the board for whatever reason.................

 

but I come and read the GDT and the bashing of Allen was pretty disgusting by our own fan base.

 

In this information instant gratification society............... Allen doesn't stand a chance to hone his skills with this fan base and most of the drive by sports media too.

 

Patience is not in the vocabulary of some Bills fans.

 

The kid has less than a season of starts and has already led FIVE comeback wins (Clay drop in Miami).

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