Calling it now: Zay Jones will not be on the week 1 roster.

[Ronin]

2 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

I dunno cam is a pretty decent one man show

Mvp and a Superbowl trip ?

 

Cam's not a franchise QB, not even close tho.  

 

Besides, in those playoffs he had one good passing game, against Arizona.  He wasn't good in the other two.  

 

[Alphadawg7]

10 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

I was able to flip Zay for a first rounder in Madden last night, so clearly the trade market is there

 

hahaha kudos, that was funny

[John from Riverside]

11 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Cam's not a franchise QB, not even close tho.  

 

Besides, in those playoffs he had one good passing game, against Arizona.  He wasn't good in the other two.  

 

LOL.....just LOL

[Teddy KGB]

22 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Cam's not a franchise QB, not even close tho.  

 

 

Lmao.     Imagine saying this about an MVP ??

[Mike in Horseheads]

4 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Lmao.     Imagine saying this about an MVP ??

Thats right out of Boyst mouth too

[Doc]

3 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

You'll get little argument from me on Clay, most overrated TE we've had in years.

 

BUT, he's not nearly as bad as the 2.3 catches/game he had with Allen throwing.  Hell, he averaged 3.8 catches/game with Taylor and whom, Fitz?

 

Everyone's receiving numbers went down with Allen on the field.

 

As exciting as Allen was to watch, and this isn't going to float well here, but it wasn't team ball.  He tried to be a one man show.  Last time a QB like that became a franchise QB was never, at least not in the modern era.

 

True, it wasn't team ball.  Because they had no running game, which is a young QB's best friend. 

 

As for Clay, his best days are behind him.  My lasting impression of him will be him feebly trying to catch what would have been the game-winning pass in the 1st Dols game. 

[Stank_Nasty]

11 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

You'll get little argument from me on Clay, most overrated TE we've had in years.

 

BUT, he's not nearly as bad as the 2.3 catches/game he had with Allen throwing.  Hell, he averaged 3.8 catches/game with Taylor and whom, Fitz?

 

Everyone's receiving numbers went down with Allen on the field.

 

As exciting as Allen was to watch, and this isn't going to float well here, but it wasn't team ball.  He tried to be a one man show.  Last time a QB like that became a franchise QB was never, at least not in the modern era.

How is one supposed to play “team ball” with an awful offensive line, absolutely no freaking run game, and extremely underwhelming talent around him? 

 

Those last 6 games, Allen was polishing that turd of an offense as best as he could given the circumstances. He was a one man offense out of NECESSITY. it’s troubling to me that you can’t really see that. 

 

The thing is.... I agree with a lot of what you say but your comments about his supporting cast through this thread have been so crazy bad. That’s just hard to get passed for me. 

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

True, it wasn't team ball.  Because they had no running game, which is a young QB's best friend. 

 

As for Clay, his best days are behind him.  My lasting impression of him will be him feebly trying to catch what would have been the game-winning pass in the 1st Dols game. 

There’s a montage of timely drops that goes through my head when he comes to mind.... add one that went through his hands for a pick in the endzone in the 17 opener vs the jets. Or the pathetic drop he had up in foxboro the play before the KB “no catch” .... turns out that Miami drop may have been the most impactful play he’s ever “made” for us. Saved us 9 draft slots if I’m not mistaken. 

 

if i went digging for a brief spell I’m sure I could find plenty more examples for clay. 

 

Allen was a one man show because he had to be. Anyone that couldn’t see that needs to find another sport watch for sure. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[SouthNYfan]

8 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Cam's not a franchise QB, not even close tho.  

 

Besides, in those playoffs he had one good passing game, against Arizona.  He wasn't good in the other two.  

 

 

Wow.

Just wow 

 

8 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

LOL.....just LOL

 

I can't even LoL at it... It's that absurd I'm just like... At a loss...

 

8 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Lmao.     Imagine saying this about an MVP ??

 

Right!?

Not sure what else he has to do.

 

[Ronin]

2 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

The thing is.... I agree with a lot of what you say but your comments about his supporting cast through this thread have been so crazy bad. That’s just hard to get passed for me. 

 

There are a lot of statements out there implying, suggesting, and otherwise outright stating things about the team that simply aren't true.  They never provide the statistical/factual basis for making them as if a narrative trumps reality.  No matter how many times I point them out the people making those comments simply ignore them.  

 

Yes, there were some issues with the team, he could have had better receivers, etc., but ONCE AGAIN, we were generally not THE worst in all of them.  

 

Rosen, Darnold, Jackson also didn't have great "weapons."  

 

Lots said about how hurried Allen was to throw, but statistically he had more time-to-throw than ANY QB in this league, by a statistical country mile even.  

 

People continually talk about dropped passes as if we're the worst when the truth is that we're pretty near average.  So in comps drops can't explain differences.  

 

But, AND AGAIN, why did ALL of our receivers do so much worse with Allen than with Anderson and Barkley, neither of whom even played recently or even before we signed them.  What, are they so great that it explains all that.  

 

Say what you want, but you too are implying that none of it is Allen's fault on one hand, and then say you agree with a lot of what I say.  If you agree with a lot of what I say about Allen, then who cares about the rest.  The only reason I bring it up is usually because someone else has stated the contrary with a narrative suggesting that Allen had so much less to work with than any other QB in the league.  

 

Again, it's all irrelevant, our receivers (WR, TE, RBs, doesn't matter) ALL categorically did less with Allen throwing.  Foster particularly.  

 

That's a fact, if it's true, the rest really doesn't matter.  

[BillsBlue]

On 2/27/2019 at 3:46 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

I could be wrong, but this is just what I believe based on the additions I expect Beane to make in the WR room.  I have no issues if others don't agree, just my opinion on the matter, nothing more.  

 

I have consistently said this all off season, and McDermott just said something again that enforces that belief.  I think they see how the Rams cleared out their WR room and so did the Bears and in both cases their young QB's took big strides as passers.  Eagles did the same for Wentz too.  

 

"We're looking for guys that can get open and catch the ball."  Yes, that is an obvious trait for any WR, but also its telling that he and Beane keep making these comments given the struggles all year, including Zay, to do these very basic things.  

 

I think the WR room will be crowded once free agency and the draft is over (likely 2 to 3 additions) and Zay is going to be someone who has to really impress in camp to make this roster.   Right now, there is not one part of being a wide receiver that Zay does particularly well outside of his reported good work ethic.  

 

1. Hands:  Struggles catching the ball.  Makes easy catches look hard and drops too many passes.
2. Separation:  Has struggled to get separation, especially playing on the outside.  
3. Route Running:  Part of his issue with getting separation is his inconsistent route running.
4. Speed:  He has average speed.  He is fast enough to play in the league, but to be consistent with his speed he needs to be a good route runner.  
5. Physicality:  He is easily man handled by physical corners.  Games like the Lions and Pats this year he was dominated physically for example.  
6. Contested Catches:  One of the weakest part of his game.
7. Catch Radius:  Very limited mostly due to his inconsistent hands and lack of physicality.  

 

Foster:  Penciled in as a projected #2 WR.  However, if we bring in a potential starter in FA and also draft one early, then Foster is no lock for #2 and could be used more out of the slot or as a deep threat.  Additionally, if we draft say Metcalf or make a splashy trade for someone like Brown (less likely), then Duke could make a real challenge for #2 as a big catch radius compliment to a #1 who poses a real deep threat opposite him. 

 

Duke:  He has to prove himself in the NFL, I get that.  But if we take an honest assessment of him, his issues were never talent related.  He isn't a speed burner, but he has a big catch radius, runs good routes, and has great hands.  He could legit compete for the #2 opposite a big play #1.  Even if not a #2, its more than reasonable he has a legit shot to make this team and compete for minutes.  

 

Zay:  Best suited for the slot, however his lack of consistent hands and his issues with separation make his spot there vulnerable.  If our top 2 WR's this next season dont include Foster, then I can easily see Foster challenging to play in the slot, and he already has surpassed Zay.  

 

We are adding at least 2 additonal WR's (and maybe 3) this offseason expected to start or compete to start to go along with the 3 guys already here.  With McD and Beanes consistent comments about getting open and catching the ball, I think Zay is in trouble and will be a training camp or preseason trade for a 4th round or conditional 5th round pick.  

no sir this year he kicks it up another notch and cements his spot on the roster i see a good 3 2 touchdown games from him this year 

[Ronin]

9 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Lmao.     Imagine saying this about an MVP ??

 

BTW, allow me to ask, which of Newton's passing seasons back up the notion that he's a franchise QB to you?  

 

Just curious.  

 

And here's a list;  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm

 

I'll even summarize the seasons: 

 

21 TDs, 17 INTs, 4,051 Yards

19/12, 3,869

24/13, 3,379

18/12, 3,127

35/10, 3,837

19/14, 3,509

22/16, 3,302

24/13, 3,395 

 

As I see it, withone exception, he's a tremendously average passer, low TD/INT rate, average or worse TD production, high INT%, he's known for being a poor leader and numerous other things.  

 

I think this at least explains the low standards here however.  

 

One solid season does not a franchise QB make.  I can name dozens of QBs with one great season that were never even considered for that status.  Easily.  

 

If all we get from Allen in 7 of every 8 seasons is TD production of 18-24 TDs, well, continue to laugh, but again, I can see why some seem to think that Allen's better than he is at the moment.  

 

 

[artmalibu]

11 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

BTW, allow me to ask, which of Newton's passing seasons back up the notion that he's a franchise QB to you?  

 

Just curious.  

 

And here's a list;  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm

 

I'll even summarize the seasons: 

 

21 TDs, 17 INTs, 4,051 Yards

19/12, 3,869

24/13, 3,379

18/12, 3,127

35/10, 3,837

19/14, 3,509

22/16, 3,302

24/13, 3,395 

 

As I see it, withone exception, he's a tremendously average passer, low TD/INT rate, average or worse TD production, high INT%, he's known for being a poor leader and numerous other things.  

 

I think this at least explains the low standards here however.  

 

One solid season does not a franchise QB make.  I can name dozens of QBs with one great season that were never even considered for that status.  Easily.  

 

If all we get from Allen in 7 of every 8 seasons is TD production of 18-24 TDs, well, continue to laugh, but again, I can see why some seem to think that Allen's better than he is at the moment.  

 

11 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

 

When you add his rushing production it changes things a bit....

[Ronin]

2 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

Right!?

Not sure what else he has to do.

 

BTW, "not sure what else he has to do?  

 

How about be more than perfectly mediocre in the postseason?  

 

IDK, call me crazy like you guys have, but to me a franchise QB doesn't play average ball in the postseason and rely on the defense and running games to win.  

 

But here's a straight YES or NO question for you, and very curious than answer.  

 

If after the 2026 season we look back and Allen's last 8 seasons were to mimic Newton's 8 to a T, would you consider Allen to have played to expectations?  

 

33 minutes ago, artmalibu said:

 

 

When you add his rushing production it changes things a bit....

 

Rushing doesn't a franchise QB make.  Every single franchise QB has an outstanding short-medium game. 

 

To even hint that Allen's short-medium game is even anywhere in the ballpark of where Newton's is is the definition of ignorance in the matter.  

 

To add to that point, you cannot name one QB in the modern era, not one, that has even average much less Allen's horrific-ness in the short-medium game that is a franchise QB based on his rushing.  In fact, you can't even name one QB with great passing that is considered a franchise QB because of his rushing.  Wilson's about the closest and Wilson's passing is so much better than Newtons, on TD/INT alone.  

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by TaskersGhost

[SouthNYfan]

4 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

BTW, "not sure what else he has to do?  

 

How about be more than perfectly mediocre in the postseason?  

 

IDK, call me crazy like you guys have, but to me a franchise QB doesn't play average ball in the postseason and rely on the defense and running games to win.  

 

But here's a straight YES or NO question for you, and very curious than answer.  

 

If after the 2026 season we look back and Allen's last 8 seasons were to mimic Newton's 8 to a T, would you consider Allen to have played to expectations?  

 

 

Rushing doesn't a franchise QB make.  Every single franchise QB has an outstanding short-medium game. 

 

To even hint that Allen's short-medium game is even anywhere in the ballpark of where Newton's is is the definition of ignorance in the matter.  

 

To add to that point, you cannot name one QB in the modern era, not one, that has even average much less Allen's horrific-ness in the short-medium game that is a franchise QB based on his rushing.  In fact, you can't even name one QB with great passing that is considered a franchise QB because of his rushing.  Wilson's about the closest and Wilson's passing is so much better than Newtons, on TD/INT alone.  

 

 

A franchise QB is somebody who gives their team the chance to win, week in and week out, year in and year out.

 

He won a league mvp and went to the Superbowl

He's got a winning record

 

If Allen accomplishes in his first 8 years what cam has, he will absolutely be a success.

[Stank_Nasty]

1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

There are a lot of statements out there implying, suggesting, and otherwise outright stating things about the team that simply aren't true.  They never provide the statistical/factual basis for making them as if a narrative trumps reality.  No matter how many times I point them out the people making those comments simply ignore them.  

 

Yes, there were some issues with the team, he could have had better receivers, etc., but ONCE AGAIN, we were generally not THE worst in all of them.  

 

Rosen, Darnold, Jackson also didn't have great "weapons."  

 

Lots said about how hurried Allen was to throw, but statistically he had more time-to-throw than ANY QB in this league, by a statistical country mile even.  

 

People continually talk about dropped passes as if we're the worst when the truth is that we're pretty near average.  So in comps drops can't explain differences.  

 

But, AND AGAIN, why did ALL of our receivers do so much worse with Allen than with Anderson and Barkley, neither of whom even played recently or even before we signed them.  What, are they so great that it explains all that.  

 

Say what you want, but you too are implying that none of it is Allen's fault on one hand, and then say you agree with a lot of what I say.  If you agree with a lot of what I say about Allen, then who cares about the rest.  The only reason I bring it up is usually because someone else has stated the contrary with a narrative suggesting that Allen had so much less to work with than any other QB in the league.  

 

Again, it's all irrelevant, our receivers (WR, TE, RBs, doesn't matter) ALL categorically did less with Allen throwing.  Foster particularly.  

 

That's a fact, if it's true, the rest really doesn't matter.  

the bolded is why I cant take you that seriously. its completely false. I mean I even double checked the box scores. its false. 100%.... and are you really referencing a one game sample size for barkley? and then you say "foster particularly"? foster had numerous games with allen that were better than any he had with Anderson or barkley…. how can you not feel dirty when you spout trash like this. it completely false. 

 

your lack of awareness of how bad the team was up front and around him is alarming. 

 

oh..... and I don't suppose it makes any sense that allen happened to have to MAKE time to throw because he was running for his life.... I love how you try and spin that like we had good pass pro. that's freaking joke man.... again, I don't know how you don't feel dirty when you type crap like this.

 

basically when I said I agree with some of what you say I meant allen needs to get better and he's not blame free.... but your thoughts on this topic in particular are downright foolish.

[Teddy KGB]

1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

BTW, allow me to ask, which of Newton's passing seasons back up the notion that he's a franchise QB to you?  

 

Just curious.  

 

And here's a list;  https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NewtCa00.htm

 

I'll even summarize the seasons: 

 

21 TDs, 17 INTs, 4,051 Yards

19/12, 3,869

24/13, 3,379

18/12, 3,127

35/10, 3,837

19/14, 3,509

22/16, 3,302

24/13, 3,395 

 

As I see it, withone exception, he's a tremendously average passer, low TD/INT rate, average or worse TD production, high INT%, he's known for being a poor leader and numerous other things.  

 

I think this at least explains the low standards here however.  

 

One solid season does not a franchise QB make.  I can name dozens of QBs with one great season that were never even considered for that status.  Easily.  

 

If all we get from Allen in 7 of every 8 seasons is TD production of 18-24 TDs, well, continue to laugh, but again, I can see why some seem to think that Allen's better than he is at the moment.  

 

 

 

This is the Zay thread.    You know they give the MVP to the best football player in the world though right ? 

 

 

 

[Buffalo Junction]

53 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

To even hint that Allen's short-medium game is even anywhere in the ballpark of where Newton's is is the definition of ignorance in the matter.  

 

To add to that point, you cannot name one QB in the modern era, not one, that has even average much less Allen's horrific-ness in the short-medium game that is a franchise QB based on his rushing.  In fact, you can't even name one QB with great passing that is considered a franchise QB because of his rushing.  Wilson's about the closest and Wilson's passing is so much better than Newtons, on TD/INT alone.  

 

Interestingly, Rivers had some similar issues his first few years. He consistently forced/pushed the ball down the field instead of taking the easy yardage. It was really chunk yardage or bail to the back at the last second. His short game numbers are actually inflated because of those swing passes and screens, which is expected when your backs are Tomlinson and Sproles.

 

This is not a direct comparison, but rather an example of improvement. Rivers was light years ahead or Allen his first year as a starting QB. However, he was also more pro-ready coming out and sat behind Brees. 

 

The thing to take away is that these guys can learn to utilize the short game, but for gunslingers it generally occurs after some time and experience. In contrast, it’s damn near impossible to get a timid QB to improve the intermediate/deep game. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Buffalo Junction

[Doc]

1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

There are a lot of statements out there implying, suggesting, and otherwise outright stating things about the team that simply aren't true.  They never provide the statistical/factual basis for making them as if a narrative trumps reality.  No matter how many times I point them out the people making those comments simply ignore them.  

 

Yes, there were some issues with the team, he could have had better receivers, etc., but ONCE AGAIN, we were generally not THE worst in all of them.  

 

Rosen, Darnold, Jackson also didn't have great "weapons."  

 

Lots said about how hurried Allen was to throw, but statistically he had more time-to-throw than ANY QB in this league, by a statistical country mile even.  

 

People continually talk about dropped passes as if we're the worst when the truth is that we're pretty near average.  So in comps drops can't explain differences.  

 

But, AND AGAIN, why did ALL of our receivers do so much worse with Allen than with Anderson and Barkley, neither of whom even played recently or even before we signed them.  What, are they so great that it explains all that.  

 

Say what you want, but you too are implying that none of it is Allen's fault on one hand, and then say you agree with a lot of what I say.  If you agree with a lot of what I say about Allen, then who cares about the rest.  The only reason I bring it up is usually because someone else has stated the contrary with a narrative suggesting that Allen had so much less to work with than any other QB in the league.  

 

Again, it's all irrelevant, our receivers (WR, TE, RBs, doesn't matter) ALL categorically did less with Allen throwing.  Foster particularly.  

 

That's a fact, if it's true, the rest really doesn't matter.  

 

The bolded part is flat-out wrong.  You need to check your facts there, especially your prior claim that Foster did better with Peterman and Anderson.

 

As for the other stuff, the WR's and OL were among the worst units in the league.  Does it make a difference that they weren't the worst?  No, the combination was more than enough to sink the offense.  And Jackson and Darnold had better OL and weapons around them and Jackson had a running game outside of what he provided. 

 

And the drops were plentiful.  And he had the most time to throw because he was avoiding the rush, not because the OL was blocking well.

 

Throw-in that he didn't get more than 3rd string reps all off-season, on real help from his QB coach and no real veteran QB presence until mid-season and it's no wonder he struggled.

[Stank_Nasty]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

The bolded part is flat-out wrong.  You need to check your facts there, especially your prior claim that Foster did better with Peterman and Anderson.

 

As for the other stuff, the WR's and OL were among the worst units in the league.  Does it make a difference that they weren't the worst?  No, the combination was more than enough to sink the offense.  And Jackson and Darnold had better OL and weapons around them and Jackson had a running game outside of what he provided. 

 

And the drops were plentiful.  And he had the most time to throw because he was avoiding the rush, not because the OL was blocking well.

well I think he was actually referencing barkley, not Peterman. but either way its a poor attempt and 100% WRONG. haha. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[Doc]

5 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

well I think he was actually referencing barkley, not Peterman. but either way its a poor attempt and 100% WRONG. haha. 

 

No, in another post he said (I'm paraphrasing) that "people aren't even aware of the fact that he was better with Peterman, Anderson and Barkley than Allen..." when he didn't even play with Anderson and played just a half with Peterman and had no catches.

[MrEpsYtown]

I think San Fran and Tampa would be interested in Zay as a slot guy and I think he could be used as a part of a package in a trade up scenario. 

[Stank_Nasty]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

No, in another post he said (I'm paraphrasing) that "people aren't even aware of the fact that he was better with Peterman, Anderson and Barkley than Allen..." when he didn't even play with Anderson and played just a half with Peterman and had no catches.

oh. ya..... that's just factually 100% wrong.

 

dude is a character. 

[Doc]

31 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

oh. ya..... that's just factually 100% wrong.

 

dude is a character. 

 

That’s why facts need to be checked. I had to go over it a couple times just to make sure I wasn’t getting it wrong myself.

[artmalibu]

2 hours ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

BTW, "not sure what else he has to do?  

 

How about be more than perfectly mediocre in the postseason?  

 

IDK, call me crazy like you guys have, but to me a franchise QB doesn't play average ball in the postseason and rely on the defense and running games to win.  

 

But here's a straight YES or NO question for you, and very curious than answer.  

 

If after the 2026 season we look back and Allen's last 8 seasons were to mimic Newton's 8 to a T, would you consider Allen to have played to expectations?  

 

 

Rushing doesn't a franchise QB make.  Every single franchise QB has an outstanding short-medium game. 

 

To even hint that Allen's short-medium game is even anywhere in the ballpark of where Newton's is is the definition of ignorance in the matter.  

 

To add to that point, you cannot name one QB in the modern era, not one, that has even average much less Allen's horrific-ness in the short-medium game that is a franchise QB based on his rushing.  In fact, you can't even name one QB with great passing that is considered a franchise QB because of his rushing.  Wilson's about the closest and Wilson's passing is so much better than Newtons, on TD/INT alone.  

 

 

A franchise QB is one who gives a team a chance to win.  By land or air I dont give a crap.

[Alphadawg7]

Quite a bit of Cam vs Allen talk in here...

 

Allen does not project to be the same type of QB that Cam is.  There are TODAY similarities, but thats not important.  Whats important is the type of QB Allen projects to potentially be, and thats not Cam Newton.  It resembles the Big Ben, Steve Young, John Elway type QB.  Big arms with cerebral pocket awareness and movement who has the ability to beat you on any given play with his legs.  

 

He has the legs and running ability of Cam, but his style as an actual QB in the pocket is more in line with those other guys in terms of where his potential is.  

[Ronin]

23 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

A franchise QB is somebody who gives their team the chance to win, week in and week out, year in and year out.

 

He won a league mvp and went to the Superbowl

He's got a winning record

 

If Allen accomplishes in his first 8 years what cam has, he will absolutely be a success.

 

Well, OK, that's part of our differences then.  I won't be satisfied with mediocre-to-average passing TD production given what they gave up to get Allen and the opportunity costs otherwise.  

 

I'm expecting twice that TD production.  If Allen can't at least perennially pitch a marginally above-average 30 TDs season, something that Newton's even done once, never having come close otherwise, in a league that has never made passing easier, I will consider that he will not even begun to approach the expectations attached to him. 

 

Success is one thing, franchise is another.  

 

As to franchise QB, that entails that the QB is the best player on his team.  Newton is not.  Kuechly is notably better.  Otherwise I haven't looked over heir roster, but there's quite a bit of debate among Carolina fans as to whether Newton is or isn't.  To me anytime there's that kind of debate, he isn't.  

22 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

the bolded is why I cant take you that seriously. its completely false. I mean I even double checked the box scores. its false. 100%.... and are you really referencing a one game sample size for barkley? and then you say "foster particularly"? foster had numerous games with allen that were better than any he had with Anderson or barkley…. how can you not feel dirty when you spout trash like this. it completely false. 

 

your lack of awareness of how bad the team was up front and around him is alarming. 

 

oh..... and I don't suppose it makes any sense that allen happened to have to MAKE time to throw because he was running for his life.... I love how you try and spin that like we had good pass pro. that's freaking joke man.... again, I don't know how you don't feel dirty when you type crap like this.

 

basically when I said I agree with some of what you say I meant allen needs to get better and he's not blame free.... but your thoughts on this topic in particular are downright foolish.

 

Well, OK, in your world then all those wide-open receivers that Allen didn't see last season weren't doing their jobs. 

 

OK, everyone hast their opinion.  

Edited March 31, 2019 by TaskersGhost

[Ronin]

22 hours ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

This is the Zay thread.    You know they give the MVP to the best football player in the world though right ? 

 

Not sure what you mean here.  

 

Newton won MVP one season.  He's never even approached that distinction again and has been a below-average passer in 7 of his 8 other seasons. 

 

I'm not sure how that qualifies him to be a franchise QB.  Call me crazy.  

[Stank_Nasty]

23 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

 

Well, OK, in your world then all those wide-open receivers that Allen didn't see last season weren't doing their jobs. 

 

OK, everyone hast their opinion.  

If I were you I would conveniently gloss over the fact I was making up false facts about wr/qb production to fit an awful argument as well. 

 

Good talk, bruh. 

[SouthNYfan]

1 hour ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Well, OK, that's part of our differences then.  I won't be satisfied with mediocre-to-average passing TD production given what they gave up to get Allen and the opportunity costs otherwise.  

 

I'm expecting twice that TD production.  If Allen can't at least perennially pitch a marginally above-average 30 TDs season, something that Newton's even done once, never having come close otherwise, in a league that has never made passing easier, I will consider that he will not even begun to approach the expectations attached to him. 

 

Success is one thing, franchise is another.  

 

As to franchise QB, that entails that the QB is the best player on his team.  Newton is not.  Kuechly is notably better.  Otherwise I haven't looked over heir roster, but there's quite a bit of debate among Carolina fans as to whether Newton is or isn't.  To me anytime there's that kind of debate, he isn't.  

 

Well, OK, in your world then all those wide-open receivers that Allen didn't see last season weren't doing their jobs. 

 

OK, everyone hast their opinion.  

 

You talk about this 30 passing td magical threshold as if rushing TDS by a QB don't count for the same # of points

 

Newton's year by year

2011: 21 passing 14 rushing TD (35 total)

2012: 19 passing 8 rushing (27 total)

2013: 24 passing 6 rushing (30 total)

2014: 18 passing 4 rushing (22 total) (missed 2 games)

2015: 35 passing 10 rushing (45 total)

2016: 19 passing 5 rushing (24 total) (missed 2 games)

2017: 22 passing 6 rushing (28 total)

2018: 24 passing 4 rushing (28 total) (missed 2 games)

 

He hit 30 total TDS in 3 seasons, came close in 3 others, one of which he would have without messing 2 games.

That's a pretty good number.

 

 

Tom Brady for reference has only eclipsed 30 TDS in 7 of his 18 seasons.

Aaron Rodgers 6 of 11.

Peyton 9 of 17.

Brees 10 of 18.

Big Ben 3 of 15.

Rivers 6 of 13.

 

I can keep going.

 

Your "30 touchdown" stipulation isn't even met year in year out by some of the best QBs of all time.

I'm not sure where you think pitching "at least 30 TDS" is "marginally above average"

58 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Not sure what you mean here.  

 

Newton won MVP one season.  He's never even approached that distinction again and has been a below-average passer in 7 of his 8 other seasons. 

 

I'm not sure how that qualifies him to be a franchise QB.  Call me crazy.  

 

You are crazy because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Your stipulation as to why newton isn't a franchise QB doesn't even apply to the current elites.

37 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

If I were you I would conveniently gloss over the fact I was making up false facts about wr/qb production to fit an awful argument as well. 

 

Good talk, bruh. 

 

He is completely lost.

Edited March 31, 2019 by SouthNYfan

[Ronin]

23 hours ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Interestingly, Rivers had some similar issues his first few years. He consistently forced/pushed the ball down the field instead of taking the easy yardage. It was really chunk yardage or bail to the back at the last second. His short game numbers are actually inflated because of those swing passes and screens, which is expected when your backs are Tomlinson and Sproles.

 

This is not a direct comparison, but rather an example of improvement. Rivers was light years ahead or Allen his first year as a starting QB. However, he was also more pro-ready coming out and sat behind Brees. 

 

The thing to take away is that these guys can learn to utilize the short game, but for gunslingers it generally occurs after some time and experience. In contrast, it’s damn near impossible to get a timid QB to improve the intermediate/deep game. 

 

Well, to your point, there isn't a single QB that came into the NFL lacking a short-medium game anywhere near to the extent that Allen struggles that ever made it to even average much less franchise status.  So as I've pointed out numerous times, if Allen can do it he'll be the first.  I'm just not a fan of staking my entire career on "firsts" in the NFL, much in the same way that trading up for a WR (Watkins in our case) has never been worth it.  And as if we need to rehash all of our misteps as such as Bills fans, we of all fans should know about that.  

 

Otherwise agree with your post, but again, that renders what needs to be done a tall order.  I mean how does one get into a QB's head to get them to take his time, scan the field, much less effectively for which the jury's entirely out right now?  As I've pointed out, they tried to correct one little thing in Bledsoe to the point where they were using timers and buzzers and they couldn't even get him to get rid of the ball quickly.  Imagine compounding that task several times over not to mention getting a QB that's never played like that to do it and learn it in the NFL.  

 

Again, not saying that it's not going to happen, but I'd definitely put the odds of it happening at lower than it not happening.  What I would absolutely insist must be done based upon a wealth of conclusive NFL history is that he'll have to have his short-medium game make monstrous leaps and bounds going from bottom-dwelling to well above-average.  Everyone talks as if merely playing a second season will automatically correct all that, which is a foolish proposition.  

 

 

[Dr. Who]

23 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

He is completely lost.

Yes, but he is lost with condescending aplomb, so there's that. Meanwhile, you are ignorant, don't know statistics, and don't realize Allen is epically challenged on basic skills and has little chance of even being an average qb.

[Ronin]

23 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:

well I think he was actually referencing barkley, not Peterman. but either way its a poor attempt and 100% WRONG. haha. 

 

Really, it's wrong?  

 

LMAO  ... this is one of those comments that renders a poster ignorant.  

 

Foster in the 4 games w/o Allen:  13 catches for 330 yards, an average of 82 YPG. 

 

Foster in the other 12 games with Allen:  14 catches for 221 yards, an average of fewer than 220 YPG.  

 

OK, let's just consider the weeks after Allen came back from injury then, which is fair.  In those games Foster caught 12 passes for 181 yards, an average of 60 YPG.  

 

I don't know, I learned in 1st grade math class that 82 > 60.  I'll have to go back and check tho, maybe I'm wrong.  LOL  

 

And let's keep in mind, one of those four non-Allen games was with Peterman, the other three were with nothing NFL QBs that hadn't played in any significant time, one having been called up from his sofa.  

 

You guys are really something else. 

 

The FACT of the matter is that there isn't a receiver on the team that performed better with Allen in there.  Sorry, that's simply a fact, rage against it as you may.   

[aristocrat]

33 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

You talk about this 30 passing td magical threshold as if rushing TDS by a QB don't count for the same # of points

 

Newton's year by year

2011: 21 passing 14 rushing TD (35 total)

2012: 19 passing 8 rushing (27 total)

2013: 24 passing 6 rushing (30 total)

2014: 18 passing 4 rushing (22 total) (missed 2 games)

2015: 35 passing 10 rushing (45 total)

2016: 19 passing 5 rushing (24 total) (missed 2 games)

2017: 22 passing 6 rushing (28 total)

2018: 24 passing 4 rushing (28 total) (missed 2 games)

 

He hit 30 total TDS in 3 seasons, came close in 3 others, one of which he would have without messing 2 games.

That's a pretty good number.

 

 

Tom Brady for reference has only eclipsed 30 TDS in 7 of his 18 seasons.

Aaron Rodgers 6 of 11.

Peyton 9 of 17.

Brees 10 of 18.

Big Ben 3 of 15.

Rivers 6 of 13.

 

I can keep going.

 

Your "30 touchdown" stipulation isn't even met year in year out by some of the best QBs of all time.

I'm not sure where you think pitching "at least 30 TDS" is "marginally above average"

 

You are crazy because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Your stipulation as to why newton isn't a franchise QB doesn't even apply to the current elites.

 

He is completely lost.

Excellent post

[Teddy KGB]

5 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Really, it's wrong?  

 

LMAO  ... this is one of those comments that renders a poster ignorant.  

 

Foster in the 4 games w/o Allen:  13 catches for 330 yards, an average of 82 YPG. 

 

Foster in the other 12 games with Allen:  14 catches for 221 yards, an average of fewer than 220 YPG.  

 

OK, let's just consider the weeks after Allen came back from injury then, which is fair.  In those games Foster caught 12 passes for 181 yards, an average of 60 YPG.  

 

I don't know, I learned in 1st grade math class that 82 > 60.  I'll have to go back and check tho, maybe I'm wrong.  LOL  

 

And let's keep in mind, one of those four non-Allen games was with Peterman, the other three were with nothing NFL QBs that hadn't played in any significant time, one having been called up from his sofa.  

 

You guys are really something else. 

 

The FACT of the matter is that there isn't a receiver on the team that performed better with Allen in there.  Sorry, that's simply a fact, rage against it as you may.   

 

Trash all the rookie QBs for us and Go ! 

[Ronin]

37 minutes ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

You talk about this 30 passing td magical threshold as if rushing TDS by a QB don't count for the same # of points

 

Newton's year by year

2011: 21 passing 14 rushing TD (35 total)

2012: 19 passing 8 rushing (27 total)

2013: 24 passing 6 rushing (30 total)

2014: 18 passing 4 rushing (22 total) (missed 2 games)

2015: 35 passing 10 rushing (45 total)

2016: 19 passing 5 rushing (24 total) (missed 2 games)

2017: 22 passing 6 rushing (28 total)

2018: 24 passing 4 rushing (28 total) (missed 2 games)

 

He hit 30 total TDS in 3 seasons, came close in 3 others, one of which he would have without messing 2 games.

That's a pretty good number.

 

 

Tom Brady for reference has only eclipsed 30 TDS in 7 of his 18 seasons.

Aaron Rodgers 6 of 11.

Peyton 9 of 17.

Brees 10 of 18.

Big Ben 3 of 15.

Rivers 6 of 13.

 

I can keep going.

 

Your "30 touchdown" stipulation isn't even met year in year out by some of the best QBs of all time.

I'm not sure where you think pitching "at least 30 TDS" is "marginally above average"

 

You are crazy because you have no idea what you are talking about.... 

Your stipulation as to why newton isn't a franchise QB doesn't even apply to the current elites.

 

He is completely lost.

 

Look, you're belaboring this point.  Newton vs. Brady now?  ROFLMAO 

 

The FACT is that Newton, even with one superlative season, has averaged 22 TDs/season.  To compare him as such to Brady or to any true franchise QB for that matter is ludicrous.  There isn't another QB in the league that is averaging 22 TDs/season, 20 otherwise in 7 steady-state seasons, or even close, that's considered a franhise QB.  

 

Don't agree, great.  Let's agree to disagree.  

 

Either way, and indisputably, Allen's short-medium game is so far from Newton's that that's a huge mountain he'll have to climb to even become what Newton is.  

 

We'll see.  As with you I'm hoping, unlike you I'm doubtful.  Unlike most here I don't think for a moment that what my findings and opinions are will make any difference whatsoever in whether or not it happens.  Amazing how some posters get so upset to the point of ignoring reality and posting opinionated nonsense, like that Foster didn't have better production w/o Allen than with.  .... and no, not referring to you, but you did quote them as a part of your argument.  

 

And BTW, it's not like Foster put up 82 ypg w/ Brees, Brady, or Rivers.  He did it with nothing QBs.  I mean seriously, people aren't concerned about that?  I have no idea why not.  

3 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

Trash all the rookie QBs for us and Go ! 

 

Boy howdy, there's an intelligent well-thought out counter  to the facts. 

 

 

BTW, I pretty much have except for Mayfield, both before and after the draft.  

Edited March 31, 2019 by TaskersGhost

[Elite Poster]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

[Pbomb]

12 minutes ago, Elite Poster said:

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Appears it has become a trash Allen thread

[SouthNYfan]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Yes, but he is lost with condescending aplomb, so there's that. Meanwhile, you are ignorant, don't know statistics, and don't realize Allen is epically challenged on basic skills and has little chance of even being an average qb.

 

Please explain where I was being ignorant and not knowing stats?

 

14 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

Excellent post

 

Thanks

 

12 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

 

Look, you're belaboring this point.  Newton vs. Brady now?  ROFLMAO 

 

The FACT is that Newton, even with one superlative season, has averaged 22 TDs/season.  To compare him as such to Brady or to any true franchise QB for that matter is ludicrous.  There isn't another QB in the league that is averaging 22 TDs/season, 20 otherwise in 7 steady-state seasons, or even close, that's considered a franhise QB.  

 

Don't agree, great.  Let's agree to disagree.  

 

Either way, and indisputably, Allen's short-medium game is so far from Newton's that that's a huge mountain he'll have to climb to even become what Newton is.  

 

We'll see.  As with you I'm hoping, unlike you I'm doubtful.  Unlike most here I don't think for a moment that what my findings and opinions are will make any difference whatsoever in whether or not it happens.  Amazing how some posters get so upset to the point of ignoring reality and posting opinionated nonsense, like that Foster didn't have better production w/o Allen than with.  .... and no, not referring to you, but you did quote them as a part of your argument.  

 

And BTW, it's not like Foster put up 82 ypg w/ Brees, Brady, or Rivers.  He did it with nothing QBs.  I mean seriously, people aren't concerned about that?  I have no idea why not.  

 

Where did I compare newton to Brady?

As usual you ignore the point of the post to run your own tangential narrative.

 

You stated that a franchise QB MUST PERENNIALLY HAVE 30TDS A SEASON, which is "marginally above average"

I provided factual evidence that even the best QBs of all time and of the current generation are only doing it about 35-45% of the time with Ben doing it in only 3 of his 15 seasons.

 

You also blatantly ignored the point that newton provides a significant bonus the others do not, short yardage running options and a significant # of rushing TDs.

A rushing TD is still 6 points last I checked, so you have to count those for him towards his overall total.

 

He has 182 passing and 58 rushing TDs in 8 seasons.

Know that that averages out to??

Exactly 30 TDs a season.

 

Math isn't your strong suit.

 

There are plenty of reasons to argue why cam isn't on the same level as Brady, Rivers, Rodgers (because he isn't), but he's still a franchise QB, and if you're saying any guy who isn't Brees, Rodgers, Brady level isn't considered a franchise QB then that's fine, but maybe you should use something other than arbitrary TD totals that you came up with to separate them from the pack, since Cam actually bests Brady (27.77 combined TDs), ben (26.2 combined), Rivers (28.92 combined), and falls slightly behind Peyton (32 combined), Brees (31.8 combined) and Rodgers (32.8 combined)

 

 

4 minutes ago, Pbomb said:

Appears it has become a trash Allen thread

 

Pretty amazing right?

[JoeF]

Happy Belated Birthday, Zay.  Turned 24 yesterday.  Zay has become one of the boards favorite targets of ire.  I understand the criticism for the drops, the gaining yards at garbage time, etc, but his stats for the last five games last year were

 

19 catches, 260 yards and 5 TDs

 

That's an 800 yard, 15 TD season...

 

He improved as Josh improved and became a favored red zone target. 

 

The Bills will build around Zay, Foster, Beasley, Brown and 1st 3 round rookie -- not cut Zay.

[Doc]

46 minutes ago, TaskersGhost said:

Well, to your point, there isn't a single QB that came into the NFL lacking a short-medium game anywhere near to the extent that Allen struggles that ever made it to even average much less franchise status.  So as I've pointed out numerous times, if Allen can do it he'll be the first.  I'm just not a fan of staking my entire career on "firsts" in the NFL, much in the same way that trading up for a WR (Watkins in our case) has never been worth it.  And as if we need to rehash all of our misteps as such as Bills fans, we of all fans should know about that.  

 

Otherwise agree with your post, but again, that renders what needs to be done a tall order.  I mean how does one get into a QB's head to get them to take his time, scan the field, much less effectively for which the jury's entirely out right now?  As I've pointed out, they tried to correct one little thing in Bledsoe to the point where they were using timers and buzzers and they couldn't even get him to get rid of the ball quickly.  Imagine compounding that task several times over not to mention getting a QB that's never played like that to do it and learn it in the NFL.  

 

Again, not saying that it's not going to happen, but I'd definitely put the odds of it happening at lower than it not happening.  What I would absolutely insist must be done based upon a wealth of conclusive NFL history is that he'll have to have his short-medium game make monstrous leaps and bounds going from bottom-dwelling to well above-average.  Everyone talks as if merely playing a second season will automatically correct all that, which is a foolish proposition. 

 

I saw Allen eschew many short passes in favor of of looking for the bigger play, presumably because he knew he was a one-man show.  Again it's easier to teach a QB to take the short stuff than it is to teach them to keep their eyes downfield.  And with the addition of Beasley, he'll know he needs to take those more often.