Josh Allen has been working with Jordan Palmer with McDermott's blessing

[tbarg12]

I don't really have a problem with someone trying to improve on their craft. Especially with McDermott making sure Palmer knows the terminology, some actual NFL game footage of Allen, and just working on the basics all seem like good things for a second year player. 

[Matt_In_NH]

Allen struggle to complete 50% and it was not because of the WR's.    He needs a lot of work on consistency/accuracy.   And he needs a lot of work in the short passing game also.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, mattynh said:

Allen struggle to complete 50% and it was not because of the WR's.    He needs a lot of work on consistency/accuracy.   And he needs a lot of work in the short passing game also.

 

Totally wrong.  Try again.

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Totally wrong.  Try again.

 

How could it be wrong? I saw in in writing on the internet! THAT makes it official.  ?

[Formerly Allan in MD]

14 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

For what position?

There are a few of them around.

[Doc]

13 minutes ago, Augie said:

How could it be wrong? I saw in in writing on the internet! THAT makes it official.  ?

 

My bad.  Stat lines are where it's at.

[Shaw66]

7 hours ago, PaattMaann said:

Love hearing about all players working their butts off to improve all the time. Not surprised by this as Josh has already proven he is DRIVEN to get better at his craft. Great and expected. 

This was my first thought.   He said when the season ended he was going to work on his game,.   Now it's two weeks after the season ended, and he's been working out with Palmer for two weeks.  He has McDermott's guidance about what he's supposed to be working on.  

 

Remember what McBeane have told us.   They want guys who are intense competitors, who want to get better all the time, and who are willing to work at it all the time.   Those are qualities they saw in Allen that, together with his physical talents, sold them on him.   We've seen the competitive nature, and now we're seeing the willingness to work.   

 

Love it.  

 

And, by the way, would people rather he worked out on his own, without any coach?  League rules prohibit him from working out with the Bills coaches, he can't work out with coaches of any other teams.   Jordan Palmer, whether it's valid or not, is recognized as one of the best.   What QB coach is sitting in his den waiting for Josh to call?   Is he better than Jordan Palmer?

[Shaw66]

Just now, NJKBillsfan said:

Accuracy issues with his throws.

Some throws were just way off target. 

I really, really believe you're wrong about this.   This issue has been argued a lot here.  

 

I think you'll find that most of the throws that you call "way off target" were the result of incomplete understanding and communication on the part of Allen and the receiver.   That doesn't have anything to do with accuracy - it comes from rookies throwing to rookies.  

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

@BringBackFergy and are are down for signing Palmer as the new starter. Get that guy in there (He throws a sweet spiral), and see what Josh Allen is worth on the trade market. 

[FLFan]

26 minutes ago, NJKBillsfan said:

Accuracy issues with his throws.

Some throws were just way off target. 

Not to be seen as trying to throw shade on the next big thing, Patrick Mahomes, but I saw plenty of throws from him these last two weeks that were way off target.  It happens.  Most of Allen's completion percentage issue was due to drops, miscommunications, throw always, and simple rookie mistakes.  Very few way off target as you claim.  Some - sure.  Room for improvement - sure.  But accuracy issues with Allen are way overblown.

[Herc11]

13 hours ago, #34fan said:

We could have had Frank Reich!

 

We're supposed to get all excited becuz Josh is working with a former marginal pro/college QB.

 

Josh doesn't need a teacher.  He needs a coach.

 

 

 

So how was Belicheks pro football career as a player? Oh that's right he never played pro football cause he wasn't any good in college. Being a good player has nothing to do with coaching ability.

[RussellDopeland]

It could be worse- Allen could be working with JESSE Palmer (though he'd probably be baking some scrumtrulescent cupcakes!)

[Matt_In_NH]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Totally wrong.  Try again.

How is it wrong?

[IgotBILLStopay]

Sorry to be a Negative Nancy but I have more faith in the Bills’ staff (Culver etc.) than Palmer. I would rather he practice at the Bills facility with Zay and Foster.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

4 hours ago, mattynh said:

Allen struggle to complete 50% and it was not because of the WR's.    He needs a lot of work on consistency/accuracy.   And he needs a lot of work in the short passing game also.

Not true.  KB only caught 30% of the passes to him.  90% of those he dropped 

[Franco_92]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I really, really believe you're wrong about this.   This issue has been argued a lot here.  

  

 I think you'll find that most of the throws that you call "way off target" were the result of incomplete understanding and communication on the part of Allen and the receiver.   That doesn't have anything to do with accuracy - it comes from rookies throwing to rookies.  

And since accuracy and Allen have been tied at the hip, we are far more prone to noticing even slightly-off throws. Every time I went to a different game this season (not that often, but often enough) to watch a Mahomes or a Big Ben, I was shocked at how many throws were off target and imperfect, because I lost my grip on the accuracy of normal NFL QBs.

 

This is not to say that Josh is more accurate than average, only that it's not as bad as you'd think by microanalyzing every Josh Allen throw without doing it to any other QB.

Edited January 24, 2019 by arcane

[Doc]

1 hour ago, mattynh said:

How is it wrong?

 

The difference between 60% passing and what Josh had (52.8%) is 23 passes.  His receivers easily dropped more than that. 

[Mrbojanglezs]

He took 2 weeks off, and back to work. He's HUNGRY

[Doc]

23 minutes ago, mattynh said:

All qbs have drops. 

 

So what?  Josh didn't struggle to complete 60% of his passes, much less the 50% you claimed.  Did you see any WR's making highlight reel catches this year, much less routinely?  And I'm not even talking about throwaways, miss-communications, and passes defensed.

[BringBackFergy]

5 hours ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

@BringBackFergy and are are down for signing Palmer as the new starter. Get that guy in there (He throws a sweet spiral), and see what Josh Allen is worth on the trade market. 

At least have a five way QB competition: Palmer, Allen, Barkley, Anderson and the kid from UB that the guy above wants to burn a 5th round pick on. Let them battle it out. 

[transplantbillsfan]

16 hours ago, TPS said:

It's all about the proper footwork.

However, If you don't start with the proper technique, then It's analogous to changing your golf swing: with enough practice and repetition you can do it; but, there will be times when you revert to what was natural before, especially in pressure situations. 

 

 

I will always personally expect to see him revert on occasion throughout his entire career.

 

Allen's not a QB who's ever going to be PERFECTLY CONSISTENT in his accuracy...

 

but the key is to get him to be as consistent as he can possibly be, and the fact that he's out in Cali working with a guy who obviously helped him mechanically from College to the pros should be really, really encouraging.

15 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Why is a pass rushing LB preparing for the draft with a QB coach.?

 

 

I really kinda would love to draft JA, the Kentucky version, just for entertainment purposes.

[transplantbillsfan]

10 hours ago, mattynh said:

Allen struggle to complete 50% and it was not because of the WR's.    He needs a lot of work on consistency/accuracy.   And he needs a lot of work in the short passing game also.

 

No.

 

His completion percentage is mainly because of his incompetent offensive weapons.

 

Allen's accuracy was what you see from a typical 1st round NFL rookie QB.

[GaryPinC]

I think Josh will improve his accuracy and this is my simple reason why:

He regularly made perfectly placed throws for us at all levels of the field, hitting guys in stride.

 

He's also a raw prospect out of college, and vastly improved his decision making this year.  Willing and able to improve.

 

Contrast that with EJ Manuel.

[Matt_In_NH]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

No.

 

His completion percentage is mainly because of his incompetent offensive weapons.

 

Allen's accuracy was what you see from a typical 1st round NFL rookie QB.

 

You are saying two things, first its the fault of the rest of the offensive players and second it is typical for a rookie.  Which is it?

 

All I am saying is lets call a spade a spade.  Was there lack of talent? Yes, Were their drops? Yes.   Was the lack of talent and drops the main reason for completing low 50%?  Nope sorry that is not what I saw.   Yes his % would have been higher without drops.  But all QB's have drops so the question is how many more drops did allen have compared to others.  Josh Allen was often late on throws and as a result through into traffic, sometimes (more often than is typical) just misfires, and is generally not good at short passes, screens in particular.  I am not saying Josh Allen is a bust or anything, just being honest with what I saw.  

 

Like you said, it is not atypical for a rookie to have some bad numbers, it does not predict the rest of his career or anything.  But he has a lot to improve on is all I am saying.  Anyone who thinks the guy is as good as Mahomes and he just needs talent is ridiculous (I have seen that a lot here).     

[transplantbillsfan]

2 hours ago, mattynh said:

 

You are saying two things, first its the fault of the rest of the offensive players and second it is typical for a rookie.  Which is it?

 

All I am saying is lets call a spade a spade.  Was there lack of talent? Yes, Were their drops? Yes.   Was the lack of talent and drops the main reason for completing low 50%?  Nope sorry that is not what I saw.   Yes his % would have been higher without drops.  But all QB's have drops so the question is how many more drops did allen have compared to others.  Josh Allen was often late on throws and as a result through into traffic, sometimes (more often than is typical) just misfires, and is generally not good at short passes, screens in particular.  I am not saying Josh Allen is a bust or anything, just being honest with what I saw.  

 

Like you said, it is not atypical for a rookie to have some bad numbers, it does not predict the rest of his career or anything.  But he has a lot to improve on is all I am saying.  Anyone who thinks the guy is as good as Mahomes and he just needs talent is ridiculous (I have seen that a lot here).     

 

Completion percentage and accuracy aren't the same thing, and you talked about them as though they are.

 

Completion percentage involves the pass AND the catch.

 

Accuracy JUST involves the pass.

 

 

Allen's accuracy is fine by NFL standards, not just rookie standards, but as far as rookies go, he's actually good.

[Matt_In_NH]

25 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Completion percentage and accuracy aren't the same thing, and you talked about them as though they are.

 

Completion percentage involves the pass AND the catch.

 

Accuracy JUST involves the pass.

 

 

Allen's accuracy is fine by NFL standards, not just rookie standards, but as far as rookies go, he's actually good.

 

They are related but I will agree they are not the same.   If you throw every ball in the dirt you will have 0%, so yeah they are not the same but more accurate passers generally have higher completion percentages.  But its not just accuracy, its other things like throwing on time, getting the ball to the WR in the right window.   All of that he will work on and hopefully improve.  And actually, in terms of timing, he did get better after he returned from injury.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

Jim Kelly's first 4 years we're 59%. In 92' during that SB year he was 58%. People are getting way off topic on this overblown accuracy issue. Josh will never be 65-70% in his career. But that won't deter him from being a franchise qb.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

12 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Jim Kelly's first 4 years we're 59%. In 92' during that SB year he was 58%. People are getting way off topic on this overblown accuracy issue. Josh will never be 65-70% in his career. But that won't deter him from being a franchise qb.

 

This is why analytics is just the worst.  I mean, sure, it has its uses.  But it doesn't have to be the predominant talking point on every issue.  

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

This is why analytics is just the worst.  I mean, sure, it has its uses.  But it doesn't have to be the predominant talking point on every issue.  

I pity the team that has to play against a 59% Josh Allen with his size, arm strength and off the charts mobility. Jim couldn't run like that, ever in his career.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Jim Kelly's first 4 years we're 59%. In 92' during that SB year he was 58%. People are getting way off topic on this overblown accuracy issue. Josh will never be 65-70% in his career. But that won't deter him from being a franchise qb.

Jim Kelly would complete 65% of his passes in this area.  It’s a complete invalid comparison from today’s nfl to Jim Kelly’s.

 

Its also makes what Dan Marino did so special as a passer.  Now, Matt Stafford can pass for 5,000 yards.  

 

Its not normal to have a 52% passer in a league where the average starter is probsbly at around 63%.  He’s a rookie but these excuses are mind numbing. He needs to become a better passer.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Jim Kelly would complete 65% of his passes in this area.  It’s a complete invalid comparison from today’s nfl to Jim Kelly’s.

 

Its also makes what Dan Marino did so special as a passer.  Now, Matt Stafford can pass for 5,000 yards.  

 

Its not normal to have a 52% passer in a league where the average starter is probsbly at around 63%.  He’s a rookie but these excuses are mind numbing. He needs to become a better passer.

 

Mind numbing or not, you have never actually engaged with the warrants of the argument being made.  You essentially just repeat over and over: No! He needs have a higher completion percentage.  It doesn't matter how many ways people problematize your analysis, you just continue to repeat that the percentage needs to be higher. 

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Mind numbing or not, you have never actually engaged with the warrants of the argument being made.  You essentially just repeat over and over: No! He needs have a higher completion percentage.  It doesn't matter how many ways people problematize your analysis, you just continue to repeat that the percentage needs to be higher. 

You can do this for every qb in the nfl.  And it’s not like he was a 65% passer in the Mountain West and had a tough year as a rookie on a bad offense.  Two journeymen qbs signed off the street (Anderson and Barkley) completed 60% of their passes at a higher ypa than Allen.  They must have just gotten better receivers who won’t drop the ball.

 

he is a rookie so he won’t be written off.  But a top 10 pick qb should elevate the talent around him.  52% is terrible in today’s nfl and I’m sure if you asked Allen, he needs to improve instead of just blaming his receivers. 

 

And there is no downside to him working out with Palmer. I have zero questions about Allen’s work ethic.  But why do people treat him like a qb guru? Who else has he ever worked with?

Edited January 24, 2019 by C.Biscuit97

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You can do this for every qb in the nfl.  And it’s not like he was a 65% passer in the Mountain West and had a tough year as a rookie on a bad offense.  Two journeymen qbs signed off the street (Anderson and Barkley) completed 60% of their passes.  They must have just gotten better receivers who won’t drop the ball.

 

he is a rookie so he won’t be written off.  But a top 10 pick qb should elevate the talent around him.  52% is terrible in today’s nfl and I’m sure if you asked Allen, he needs to improve instead of just blaming his receivers. 

You are acting like someone who claims the sky is purple.  Countless numbers of people give you solid explanations as to why the sky is blue, and you just keep saying the sky is purple no matter what.

 

I'll give you the same data I've given you before.  You throw thirty passes in a game  about two completions change you from 52% to 60%.  So take away one throwaway and one drop and there you are.

 

Doesn't matter if other QBs have these as well.  Doesn't matter at all what other QBs do past or present.  All that matters to you is Allen increasing his percent.  If you're going to continue to cling to this completion percentage thing, and continue to ignore that accuracy and completion percentage are not equivalent, all that matters is two passes a game.  Give him a couple receivers that don't drop easy catches or make tough ones, and voila- you have your magic number. 

 

Yes Allen can get better.  Yes he is already working to do so.  But drop this nonsense about completion percentage.  Enough already.

Edited January 24, 2019 by oldmanfan

[C.Biscuit97]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You are acting like someone who claims the sky is purple.  Countless numbers of people give you solid explanations as to why the sky is blue, and you just keep saying the sky is purple no matter what.

 

I'll give you the same data I've given you before.  You throw thirty passes in a game  about two completions change you from 52% to 60%.  So take away one throwaway and one drop and there you are.

 

Doesn't matter if other QBs have these as well.  Doesn't matter at all what other QBs do past or present.  All that matters to you is Allen increasing his percent.  If you're going to continue to cling to this completion percentage thing, and continue to ignore that accuracy and completion percentage are not equivalent, all that matters is two passes a game.  Give him a couple receivers that don't drop easy catches or make tough ones, and voila- you have your magic number. 

 

Yes Allen can get better.  Yes he is already working to do so.  But drop this nonsense about completion percentage.  Enough already.

I miss being a homer. ?

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

You are acting like someone who claims the sky is purple.  Countless numbers of people give you solid explanations as to why the sky is blue, and you just keep saying the sky is purple no matter what.

 

I'll give you the same data I've given you before.  You throw thirty passes in a game  about two completions change you from 52% to 60%.  So take away one throwaway and one drop and there you are.

 

Doesn't matter if other QBs have these as well.  Doesn't matter at all what other QBs do past or present.  All that matters to you is Allen easing his percent.  If you're going to continue to cling to this completion percentage thing, and continue to ignore that accuracy and completion percentage are not equivalent, all that matters is two passes a game.  Give him a couple receivers that don't drop easy catches or make tough ones, and voila- you have your magic number. 

 

Yes Allen can get better.  Yes he is already working to do so.  But drop this nonsense about completion percentage.  Enough already.

Yes. We've heard all the "reasons" for Allen's low completion percentage in JUCO, Wyoming, and the Bills.

 

It's only nonsense if you don't believe it's an important statistic. Until he's more proficient as a passer, it's going to be an issue. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

15 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

You can do this for every qb in the nfl.  And it’s not like he was a 65% passer in the Mountain West and had a tough year as a rookie on a bad offense.  Two journeymen qbs signed off the street (Anderson and Barkley) completed 60% of their passes at a higher ypa than Allen.  They must have just gotten better receivers who won’t drop the ball.

 

he is a rookie so he won’t be written off.  But a top 10 pick qb should elevate the talent around him.  52% is terrible in today’s nfl and I’m sure if you asked Allen, he needs to improve instead of just blaming his receivers. 

 

And there is no downside to him working out with Palmer. I have zero questions about Allen’s work ethic.  But why do people treat him like a qb guru? Who else has he ever worked with?

 

Dude...youre gonna cite to Anderson?  The Barkley game was a product of him hitting deep over the top throws; the remainder were dump offs underneath.  The ypa was artificially elevated by the deep shots.  If there is a knock on Allen it is that he doesn't throw underneath.  This of course explains why he can look more accurate than 52% and still have the low completion percentage.  But, again, its a point you refuse to engage, choosing instead to continue to repeat that he is simply inaccurate.  

[oldmanfan]

Just now, LSHMEAB said:

Yes. We've heard all the "reasons" for Allen's low completion percentage in JUCO, Wyoming, and the Bills.

 

It's only nonsense if you don't believe it's an important statistic. Until he's more proficient as a passer, it's going to be an issue. 

It is not an important stat.

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I miss being a homer. ?

Math, not homerism.  Grow up.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Dude...youre gonna cite to Anderson?  The Barkley game was a product of him hitting deep over the top throws; the remainder were dump offs underneath.  The ypa was artificially elevated by the deep shots.  If there is a knock on Allen it is that he doesn't throw underneath.  This of course explains why he can look more accurate than 52% and still have the low completion percentage.  But, again, its a point you refuse to engage, choosing instead to continue to repeat that he is simply inaccurate.  

2 barely nfl QBs came in off the street and completed 60% of their passes at a higher ypa than Allen with the same team.

 

he needs to become a more accurate passer. I can’t believe this is even being argued.  

[LSHMEAB]

1 minute ago, oldmanfan said:

It is not an important stat.

Please explain. Why is the percentage of times your pass is caught by the receiver not an important stat?

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Yes. We've heard all the "reasons" for Allen's low completion percentage in JUCO, Wyoming, and the Bills.

 

It's only nonsense if you don't believe it's an important statistic. Until he's more proficient as a passer, it's going to be an issue. 

All of his JUCO wrs were terrible and it was a very tough conference.