Josh Allen has been working with Jordan Palmer with McDermott's blessing

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

2 barely nfl QBs came in off the street and completed 60% of their passes at a higher ypa than Allen with the same team.

 

he needs to become a more accurate passer. I can’t believe this is even being argued.  

THIS. This is what I mean when I say you refuse to engage in warrants and instead just repeat the same old mantras.  THIS is what makes you impossible, easily dismissable, and lacking in any credibility. 

[LSHMEAB]

3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Dude...youre gonna cite to Anderson?  The Barkley game was a product of him hitting deep over the top throws; the remainder were dump offs underneath.  The ypa was artificially elevated by the deep shots.  If there is a knock on Allen it is that he doesn't throw underneath.  This of course explains why he can look more accurate than 52% and still have the low completion percentage.  But, again, its a point you refuse to engage, choosing instead to continue to repeat that he is simply inaccurate.  

He's not particularly good yet at throwing underneath. Needs to get the ball out quicker and develop a bit more touch. I'll betcha this is exactly what he's working on with Palmer.

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

All of his JUCO wrs were terrible and it was a very tough conference. 

College of the Redwoods and Monterey Peninsula field some top notch defenses; I'll grant you that.

 

Like you, I don't understand why this is even a debate. I think we all know he needs to work on his short game. Or at least I thought we did.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

THIS. This is what I mean when I say you refuse to engage in warrants and instead just repeat the same old mantras.  THIS is what makes you impossible, easily dismissable, and lacking in any credibility. 

Huh?  Trust me, I used to be a huge homer.  It was great.  But how is citing 2 guys, who weren’t in the nfl at the beginning of the season, having better passer stats than Allen not valid?  

 

I feel like there there is some cult here that just ignores all evidence.  Allen has never been an accurate passer.  He is very fast, works hard, and has a cannon.  But the lack of accuracy made him a polarizing prospect.

 

again, if he was on the Jets, we would laugh at him.  I hope he becomes a 60% passer who limits his turnovers because he could be special.  But he is a lot risky than other top qb prospects.  Silly to argue that.

[Doc]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Huh?  Trust me, I used to be a huge homer.  It was great.  But how is citing 2 guys, who weren’t in the nfl at the beginning of the season, having better passer stats than Allen not valid?  

 

I feel like there there is some cult here that just ignores all evidence.  Allen has never been an accurate passer.  He is very fast, works hard, and has a cannon.  But the lack of accuracy made him a polarizing prospect.

 

again, if he was on the Jets, we would laugh at him.  I hope he becomes a 60% passer who limits his turnovers because he could be special.  But he is a lot risky than other top qb prospects.  Silly to argue that.

 

If Josh were on the Jets, it'd be understandable as to why you'd laugh at him.  As a Bills fan...

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Huh?  Trust me, I used to be a huge homer.  It was great.  But how is citing 2 guys, who weren’t in the nfl at the beginning of the season, having better passer stats than Allen not valid?  

 

I feel like there there is some cult here that just ignores all evidence.  Allen has never been an accurate passer.  He is very fast, works hard, and has a cannon.  But the lack of accuracy made him a polarizing prospect.

 

again, if he was on the Jets, we would laugh at him.  I hope he becomes a 60% passer who limits his turnovers because he could be special.  But he is a lot risky than other top qb prospects.  Silly to argue that.

 

So how is it when Bills fans laugh at Josh Rosen you get all defensive.  One can argue you are in some Rosen Cult!

[Doc]

Josh's game against the Dols was better than any game by either Barkley or Anderson.  So there.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

So how is it when Bills fans laugh at Josh Rosen you get all defensive.  One can argue you are in some Rosen Cult!

Huh? They are both rookie qbs who need to get better.  I do think the Cards took a major step in helping Rosen improve by their coaching change.  

 

It would be great if they both turn out to be good. Good QBs is great for the NFL.

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

35 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Huh?  Trust me, I used to be a huge homer.  It was great.  But how is citing 2 guys, who weren’t in the nfl at the beginning of the season, having better passer stats than Allen not valid?  

 

I feel like there there is some cult here that just ignores all evidence.  Allen has never been an accurate passer.  He is very fast, works hard, and has a cannon.  But the lack of accuracy made him a polarizing prospect.

 

again, if he was on the Jets, we would laugh at him.  I hope he becomes a 60% passer who limits his turnovers because he could be special.  But he is a lot risky than other top qb prospects.  Silly to argue that.

Was this supposed to be a response to a different post? It doesn't make sense in the context of what I am saying. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

....good move Josh......despite a nothing playing career (and a momentary Buffalo Bill), the Palmer kid found his teaching niche and is pretty damn good at it IMO......

[oldmanfan]

47 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Please explain. Why is the percentage of times your pass is caught by the receiver not an important stat?

Because there are multiple variables that affect that, and not just the QB.  As a team stat is maybe important.  As a stat to assess QB play it doesn't mean much.

50 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

2 barely nfl QBs came in off the street and completed 60% of their passes at a higher ypa than Allen with the same team.

 

he needs to become a more accurate passer. I can’t believe this is even being argued.  

Accuracy and completion percentage are not the same.  This has been explained countless times on this board, but you continue to think the sky is purple.

[formerlyofCtown]

1 hour ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

 

So how is it when Bills fans laugh at Josh Rosen you get all defensive.  One can argue you are in some Rosen Cult!

He is a Right Josh guy appearantly.  JA will shut him up by the end of next season.

[Lurker]

On 1/23/2019 at 9:51 AM, Heitz said:

 

Have the people that feel that way EVER tried to improve at something through practice with a "coach" or "teacher".  

 

Their "how to post dumbass hot takes on message boards" coaches seem to be making a difference...

[Alphadawg7]

On 1/23/2019 at 3:17 AM, Aussie Joe said:

JA is working out..

 

Meanwhile Mahomes is Mahoming 

 

What time does Mahomes play on 2/3/19?  Oh yeah same time Josh does 

[LSHMEAB]

I've come to the conclusion that Rosen is trash, so I don't think about the right/wrong Josh debate anymore. It's more about Darnold/Mayfield, and yes, even Jackson.

 

I could see Kingsbury working some magic and making Rosen look servicable kind of like Nagy did with Trubisky, but neither are any good IMO.

Edited January 25, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[njbuff]

Let's hope the Bills running game can help this kid out.

 

And McCoy still being the guy is troublesome. His dancing does not mesh with Josh Allen's abilities.

 

The Bills need a RB that hits the hole hard to really help Allen's development.

[WideNine]

On 1/23/2019 at 5:18 AM, TPS said:

It's all about the proper footwork.

However, If you don't start with the proper technique, then It's analogous to changing your golf swing: with enough practice and repetition you can do it; but, there will be times when you revert to what was natural before, especially in pressure situations. 

 

 

Agree.

 

That muscle-memory is way important to Allen because he can launch it from bad platforms and often still get it near where it needs to go so there is probably a tendency to fall back on his arm strength too often.

 

He also needs to keep working on those the pre-snap defensive reads to get a better idea where he can go with the quicker throws, when teams play off and take away the deeper stuff. I think that will come along gradually, it will just take more time behind center and in the film room.

 

With the better mechanics and knowing where to go, the timing and placement get better, not that they were horrible to begin with. Those swing, flair, or wheel routes to the right could be ugly at times when he did not reset his feet or seemed to over-think the mechanics - yet he threw a perfect swing pass to Kyle on the right side at the end of the season, with a lot of pressure to not screw up Kyle's one career chance to catch an NFL pass. I like the kid's moxy, and I believe he's progressing.

 

Now if he just had the support of a real running game, wasn't dodging and scrambling away from pressure .9 seconds after the snap, and his receivers held onto the ball we could maybe stack up some wins next year

 

Good to see the kid is working at his craft.

 

 

 

[Doc]

59 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I've come to the conclusion that Rosen is trash, so I don't think about the right/wrong Josh debate anymore. It's more about Darnold/Mayfield, and yes, even Jackson.

 

I could see Kingsbury working some magic and making Rosen look servicable kind of like Nagy did with Trubisky, but neither are any good IMO.

 

Neither Josh is any good?  And Jackson is?  LOL!

 

1 minute ago, mattynh said:

Completion percentage and accuracy are correlated.  You talk about them like they are independend variables.  

 

Yeah, no they're not.  If a QB throws a good pass to a WR and he drops it, his accuracy is 100% but his completion percentage is 0.  Capiche?

[LSHMEAB]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Neither Josh is any good?  And Jackson is?  LOL!

 

Why in the world are you guys so sensitive? I included Allen in the conversation. And yes, Jackson should be included as well. The only declarative OPINION was that Rosen was trash. Holy smokes!

[Doc]

14 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Why in the world are you guys so sensitive? I included Allen in the conversation. And yes, Jackson should be included as well. The only declarative OPINION was that Rosen was trash. Holy smokes!

 

My bad.  I read "but neither is any good IMO" as being about Rosen and Allen.  I guess you meant (Rosen and) Trubisky, which I find surprising.

[oldmanfan]

38 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Completion percentage and accuracy are correlated.  You talk about them like they are independend variables.  

Really?  What's the correlation coefficient?  What variables affect completion percentage than have no effect whatsoever on accuracy?  The answer to the latter:  a lot.

[LSHMEAB]

23 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

My bad.  I read "but neither is any good IMO" as being about Rosen and Allen.  I guess you meant (Rosen and) Trubisky, which I find surprising.

Trubisky is a poor man's Josh Allen; same short game issues without the crazy mobility and a good arm that doesn't compare to Allen's. Don't like Trubisky's decision making or accuracy. He's in a great system so of course he's gonna look decent. Rosen had TERRIBLE protection but I saw zero zip on his passes and of course zero mobility. He's slow as dirt and doesn't appear to move around all that well in the pocket ala a Tom Brady. Just my opinion.

Edited January 25, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, WideNine said:

 

Agree.

 

That muscle-memory is way important to Allen because he can launch it from bad platforms and often still get it near where it needs to go so there is probably a tendency to fall back on his arm strength too often.

 

He also needs to keep working on those the pre-snap defensive reads to get a better idea where he can go with the quicker throws, when teams play off and take away the deeper stuff. I think that will come along gradually, it will just take more time behind center and in the film room.

 

With the better mechanics and knowing where to go, the timing and placement get better, not that they were horrible to begin with. Those swing, flair, or wheel routes to the right could be ugly at times when he did not reset his feet or seemed to over-think the mechanics - yet he threw a perfect swing pass to Kyle on the right side at the end of the season, with a lot of pressure to not screw up Kyle's one career chance to catch an NFL pass. I like the kid's moxy, and I believe he's progressing.

 

Now if he just had the support of a real running game, wasn't dodging and scrambling away from pressure .9 seconds after the snap, and his receivers held onto the ball we could maybe stack up some wins next year

 

Good to see the kid is working at his craft.

 

 

 

 

This is a good observation WideNine and let me provide another:  remember against the LA Chargers when Allen threw that horrible wheel route pass to Demarco who had to make a circus catch to grab it?  He was wide open and people rightly criticized Allen for that pass and have used it as an example of his "inaccuracy".  Now fast forward to after Allen returned from injury and was playing the Dolphins in Miami.  Remember how he had perfect touch on the same pass to Demarco on the wheel route that went for 30+ yards.  That's what I like about the kid - he learns from his mistakes and improves on what he doesn't do so well. 

Edited January 25, 2019 by CincyBillsFan

[transplantbillsfan]

4 hours ago, mattynh said:

Completion percentage and accuracy are correlated.  You talk about them like they are independend variables.  

 

Can you determine accuracy by watching a QB throw a ball to a wooden block moved around by a track of some sort that can't catch?

 

Sure, accuracy and completion percentage are related to each other. That still doesn't mean completion percentage tells you how accurate a QB is.

[transplantbillsfan]

9 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Yes. We've heard all the "reasons" for Allen's low completion percentage in JUCO, Wyoming, and the Bills.

 

It's only nonsense if you don't believe it's an important statistic. Until he's more proficient as a passer, it's going to be an issue. 

 

And coincidentally, Allen will only be a proficient passer if his WRs and TEs actually catch the passes Allen throws

[#34fan]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 2:07 AM, Buddo said:

 

It can easily be argued that Frank is a marginal pro/college QB. (I'm not about to, but you get my drift).

 

Reich owns a significant piece of history in both the college and pro game. (I think you know of what I speak.)

 

As a coach he has lifted nearly every offense he's touched.  -Where has Jordan Palmer coached?

 

If he's such a guru, -why isn't he coaching for any of the NFL's 32 teams?  

 

I submit that right now, at this moment, Josh Allen is a better pro QB than Jordan Palmer EVER was...  If I was Beane, I'd keep Palmer the hell away

 

from my 1st round draft pick.

[#34fan]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 3:10 PM, Herc11 said:

 

So how was Belicheks pro football career as a player? Oh that's right he never played pro football cause he wasn't any good in college. Being a good player has nothing to do with coaching ability.

 

What team does Palmer coach for?

[Warcodered]

5 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

What team does Palmer coach for?

If he was a coach for a team how could he possibly be helping Allen right now?

[#34fan]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

If he was a coach for a team how could he possibly be helping Allen right now?

 

I'm not so sure he's helping Allen at all... Guess we'll see in August.

[oldmanfan]

18 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

What team does Palmer coach for?

Define what a coach is in your mind.

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, mattynh said:

 

So Allen is perfect and has nothing to work on...we just need to get him "weapons"

Childish.  No one is saying that.  What we are saying is that accuracy and completion percentage are not related.  You claim they're correlated, what's the correlation coefficient?  There are a whole host of variables that affect completion percentage that have nothing to do with accuracy.  Plus what you seem to be confusing is correlation with causation.  Causation would mean there is a direct link to inaccuracy with an incompletion.  For individual passes that can be true.  As it can be also true that it is because a received dropped a pass, or because the defense made a good play, or because the QB had to throw the ball away.

 

Allen has work to do like most young QBs.  He needs to improve his touch on throws.  Needs to continue learning to read defenses. But as the OPs exhaustive analysis of each of his games and throws showed, his accuracy is overblown and similar to the other young QBs.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, mattynh said:

 

They are correlated, I cant provide you common sense.

No, you make an outlandish statement and then can't back it up.  I work with statistics every day.  You want to claim correlation, show the data.  Sow us how strongly they're correlated.   Your issue is you don't understand what you're talking about. 

 

Read up on the difference between correlation and causation.

[Doc]

11 hours ago, mattynh said:

We will have to just agree to disagree.  

 

You're agreeing to disagree that if a QB throws a perfect pass to a WR and he drops it, that means the QB is inaccurate?  If so, it's best you don't continue discussing things further.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Doc said:

 

You're agreeing to disagree that if a QB throws a perfect pass to a WR and he drops it, that means the QB is inaccurate?  If so, it's best you don't continue discussing things further.

Amazing , isn't it?

[Doc]

17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Amazing , isn't it?

 

Yup.  That and the "so he's perfect..." comment show he's not willing to engage in honest discourse.  So I won't bother further.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Doc

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, mattynh said:

Move on son.  Stop making yourself look like an idiot.  

 

 

You provide the data stats man.  If you understood the difference between correlation and causation you would not be asking for a coefficient.  

You made the claim that they are correlated.  You make the claim, then provide the data to back up your claim.  And the reason I brought up correlation vs. causation is because you are clueless what correlation actually means.  Correlation describes the size and direction (i.e. positive or negative) of a relationship between two variables.  Correlation DOES NOT equal causation.  A classic example is that there is a correlation between high school test scores and the amount of ice cream that students eat in a given year.  Pretty strong positive correlation, with a correlation coefficient of around 0.6.

 

In your view of stats, you would claim that eating ice cream increased kid's test scores.  But you would be wrong.  Because eating ice cream does not CAUSe higher test scores.  What it really means is they have parents that have more disposable income to take kid's out for ice cream, and they also have more disposable income for things like getting kids help in test preparation. 

 

Correlation has no real bearing on cause.

 

You claim there is a correlation between accuracy and completion percentage.  First, you don't define how you measure accuracy.  If you're doing so based  on completion percentage then you're basically comparing the same set of data against itself.  Which would be really dumb.  And then you make the fatal mistake so many make.  Even if there is a positive correlation, that has nothing to do with cause.  The causes of lowered completion percentage involves many variables, the accuracy of a given pass to be sure, but also defensive aspects, play of the receivers, and many others. 

 

But you just go ahead and call those who have a much more comprehensive understanding of things statistical idiots if it will make you feel better.  All it does it make you look silly.

[LSHMEAB]

11 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

And coincidentally, Allen will only be a proficient passer if his WRs and TEs actually catch the passes Allen throws

Betcha anything the NUMBER 1 thing Palmer and Allen are working on is throwing more catchable balls, ie touch in the short game. That's not to say the receivers didn't suck, but he's gotta take some zip off the gimmies.

[Socal-805]

 

 

They should point Allen to the "RIGHT" and have him throw there all summer.

 

: )

 

5 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Betcha anything the NUMBER 1 thing Palmer and Allen are working on is throwing more catchable balls, ie touch in the short game. That's not to say the receivers didn't suck, but he's gotta take some zip off the gimmies.

 

 

Would be nice, but couldn't that make him even MORE inaccurate??

 

 

[transplantbillsfan]

56 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Betcha anything the NUMBER 1 thing Palmer and Allen are working on is throwing more catchable balls, ie touch in the short game. That's not to say the receivers didn't suck, but he's gotta take some zip off the gimmies.

 

I don't know how we would bet on something like that, but I'd bet against it.

 

I'm sure the #1 thing they're working on is consistency in his mechanics.

[LSHMEAB]

Just now, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I don't know how we would bet on something like that, but I'd bet against it.

 

I'm sure the #1 thing they're working on is consistency in his mechanics.

That's the baseline. Of course they're working on consistency in his mechanics. But the issue besides the obvious mechanical consistency is touch on short & intermediate throws.

 

Nice line regarding such a bet! Good stuff. I'm not sure how such a bet would work either.?

[dakrider]

1 hour ago, LSHMEAB said:

That's the baseline. Of course they're working on consistency in his mechanics. But the issue besides the obvious mechanical consistency is touch on short & intermediate throws.

 

Nice line regarding such a bet! Good stuff. I'm not sure how such a bet would work either.?

 

I think Allen's touch on short throws is fine.  I think he needs to work on his timing for the quick slant passes, but not sure if thats something he would be doing with Palmer.