Nice game but Allen needs to pass

[Teddy KGB]

10 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Jax is a train wreck this year. They are a completely different team. 

 

3 points doesn’t beat this team either though. 

 

Rookie Allen > Veteran Taylor all day baby !

 

Any gm in the league can verify this for you.  

[BillsFan130]

33 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

3 points doesn’t beat this team either though. 

 

Rookie Allen > Veteran Taylor all day baby !

 

Any gm in the league can verify this for you.  

You really have an obsession with tyrod eh? Lol.

 

Tyrod isn’t here anymore and he’s the past.

 

I think we can all agree that we are happy with Allen as our QB and not tyrod

[BillsFan130]

8 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

Scott’s your man then.    I didn’t bring him up.  

Haha fair enough

 

 

[Gugny]

13 hours ago, Jpsredemption said:

Never in my life have I seen such an overreaction to 8 completed passes. 8 of 19 nonetheless. 

 

Can we talk about the drops and the completions negated by penalties now?  That would be super fun.

[oldmanfan]

Allen is a rookie QB with 6.5 games to his credit so far.  If you watch games in chronologic order he is making slow but steady progress.  with a young QB the things you look for are whether he gets too jumpy, makes bad decisions with the ball, and such.  You want to see evidence that the game is starting to slow down for him.

 

If you look objectively at Allen's progress, I think anyone who is being fair would say the game is slowing down for him.  Not by leaps and bounds, but the evidence is plain to see.  It looks to me like he's seeing his reads quicker, he is figuring out where to go with the ball somewhat faster.  He could of course maybe stay in the pocket  fraction of a second more, and while I know the running scares folks you could also say it is a result of him making good reads.  On his 45 yard run he read the MLB, saw he was not paying attention to the run threat, and he took off.  As he learns and as the game continues to slow down he should start checking down more (if the check downs are there).  And Daboll will continue to present more complex options as Allen learns.

 

It is of course not a sure thing; he has a ways to go.  But his progress is certainly encouraging, and anyone who would deny that is really just searching to support a pre-conceived notion that he would be a bust.

 

 

[TheElectricCompany]

38 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Allen is a rookie QB with 6.5 games to his credit so far.  If you watch games in chronologic order he is making slow but steady progress.  with a young QB the things you look for are whether he gets too jumpy, makes bad decisions with the ball, and such.  You want to see evidence that the game is starting to slow down for him.

 

If you look objectively at Allen's progress, I think anyone who is being fair would say the game is slowing down for him.  Not by leaps and bounds, but the evidence is plain to see.  It looks to me like he's seeing his reads quicker, he is figuring out where to go with the ball somewhat faster.  He could of course maybe stay in the pocket  fraction of a second more, and while I know the running scares folks you could also say it is a result of him making good reads.  On his 45 yard run he read the MLB, saw he was not paying attention to the run threat, and he took off.  As he learns and as the game continues to slow down he should start checking down more (if the check downs are there).  And Daboll will continue to present more complex options as Allen learns.

 

It is of course not a sure thing; he has a ways to go.  But his progress is certainly encouraging, and anyone who would deny that is really just searching to support a pre-conceived notion that he would be a bust.

 

Good post. I generally agree, and do feel that Allen has progressed, although not as much as others. 

 

I don't mind that he runs the ball. It's not ideal long term, but he's a rookie, have at it. Let the guy get first downs and build some momentum and confidence. Keep doing it until a defense can stop it. 

 

We've been spoiled this year by the sheer brilliance of many QBs. 9+ YPA, 70%+ completion, 400+ yard performances,  ridiculous TD/INT rates, etc. I love all of that, and want Allen to be a part of that club, but until he starts "slicing and dicing" defenses, I have my concerns he'll get there. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by TheElectricCompany

[dakrider]

2 hours ago, Fan in Chicago said:

I recognize that his scrambling (and now rushing) skills are a big asset. But him being the crown jewel, I would rather forego a first down if it helps keep him healthy. 

Of course we need to wait before we proclaim him to be our long term answer. But as Augie and several others have said, all you look for in a rookie is continued progress. It's undeniable that he is showing that and, last Sunday , it was against a good defense. 

 

The biggest thing to me was Allen made the correct decision on just about every play.  One of the hardest things for QB's is making the correct decision on each and every play vs making a big mistake that gets you sacked or intercepted.   And yeah, if the Bills had played better overall he would have had 250 yards passing along with 100 yards rushing.  

And I still maintain that regardless of how well or how poorly they play, you can never adequately judge a quarterback their rookie year.  There's so many great QB's who hardly played at all their rookie year and others like Goff who didn't really look good their first year.  

 

Goff 7 games 2016 and Allen 6.5 games 

Goff (only 16 yards rushing with 1 TD)
GP CMP  ATT   CMP%    YDS   AVG   TD  LNG INT FUM  QBR   RAT
7    112    205    54.6    1,089    5.31    5    66     7      5     18.9    63.6

Allen (254 yards rushing and 4 TD's)
7      83    158    52.5       992     6.28    3    75    5       1     37.9    65.2
 

 

[Jay_Fixit]

On 11/25/2018 at 2:56 PM, Teddy KGB said:

 

Like completing passes on 3rd and 5 then 3rd and 15 then throwing a jump ball to KB ON 3rd and 25 ? 

That was my favorite series of the game. 

 

3rd down.

 

Completed one on 3rd and 5 for a first.. Called back.

Completed another (great throw) on 3rd and 15. Called back.

Threw it where only his guy could get it on 3rd and 25. It was a long shot but at least it was attempted.

 

Was nice to see.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Jay_Fixit

[Jpsredemption]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Can we talk about the drops and the completions negated by penalties now?  That would be super fun.

Go ahead. 

[Fan in Chicago]

29 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

Go ahead. 

This post will help. Start reading about half way into the first post and then let us know what you think

 

[Gugny]

33 minutes ago, Jpsredemption said:

Go ahead. 

 

3 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

This post will help. Start reading about half way into the first post and then let us know what you think

 

 

Good call on referencing the @Shaw66 post, Fan in Chicago.  Here is what you were talking about:

 

"But he was 8 for 19.  How can he be good if he was 8 for 19?  Well, how many bad throws did he make?  By my count, three:  He missed the first pass of the game, behind Jones coming across the middle, missed Foster in the flat in the third quarter, and mysteriously underthrew McKenzie in the right flat in the fourth quarter.  Three bad throws, one of them the first throw he’s made in live action for over a month. 

 

Three bad throws out of 11 incompletions.  Not great, and Allen will tell you he should have made each of those.  What about the other eight incompletions?  One was a hail Mary, at least two were throw-aways, one was a prayer of a deep ball to Benjamin on third and 26, one was an incredible scramble and throw for a first down that went through Croom’s hands on the right sideline, one was a nearly perfect throw to Thompson over the middle that he dropped after a good defensive play, one was a good throw where Thompson failed to settle in the open spot in the zone, one was miscommunication with Thompson on a sideline pattern to the left late in the game, where Allen was under intense pressure.  (Thompson and Allen have had only one week to practice together.) 

 

Allen made the right throw on eight of his 11 incompletions. 

 

And then there are the throws that didn’t count.  Completion to Logan Thomas for seven yards and a first down, penalty on Miller.  Completion to McKenzie for 16 yards and a first down, penalty on Bodine, completion to Ivory for four yards, penalty on Teller.  Deep sideline throw to Foster at the end of the half, intercepted by Ramsay but only because his illegal contact took Foster out of the play."  (Shaw66)

[26CornerBlitz]

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

 

1. Coming around on Josh Allen kinda, sorta

Allen’s ability to escape pressure has translated better than expected at this level, and when he gets out of the pocket, he’s a real threat as a chunk runner and vertical passer. Defenses will always have to worry about the deep ball with Allen, who can reach any portion of the field at all times, and that alone will help unclog things underneath and help offset some of his problems. In today’s wide-open NFL, a creative play-caller could score points with Allen as is, let alone in three or four years.

 

But he’s not a perfect player, and I cover that in the video, too. My biggest concern with Allen are his slow eyes and accuracy. I have no idea if either will get better. While some say both can be improved significantly with reps and tweaking of fundamentals, there are others who say it’s easier said than done.

 

Allen’s accuracy issues are the most concerning. It’s the most important trait for a quarterback, and Hall of Famer Troy Aikman, who was recently making the rounds to talk about his involvement in this amusing Tide ad, agrees.

 

“I’ve always felt the most important quality is accuracy,” Aikman told me. “If a quarterback can’t throw the ball where he wants to throw it, then there’s a lot of things that [conceptually] that go out the window. I think arm strength is probably way down the list, in my opinion.”

Allen has lots of the latter, and much less of the former. But if he can make improvements as it relates to his accuracy and processing speed, then the Bills will hit on this pick.

[26CornerBlitz]

Good stuff!

 

 

[Fan in Chicago]

10 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

 

Good call on referencing the @Shaw66 post, Fan in Chicago.  Here is what you were talking about:

 

Man, you are spoon feeding him. I just linked Shaw's post as I wanted JPS to at least do a little work and not just throw out lazy takes. 

[BigDingus]

Any time Allen wins while making a few awesome plays, the majority of people are willing to overlook every glaring issue that has remained consistent since long before he was even a Bill.

I was really entertained at the beginning of the game, and was impressed by his determination running the ball, but it doesn't change his poor accuracy, his inconsistency (which isn't just due to him being a rookie...he's been that way forever), difficulty reading a defense, holding onto the ball too long, etc. But he has some nice strengths too, and deserves to be recognized for them. 

I'm worried he'll look like how he did following up the Vikings game though and try to keep every play alive by running the ball, leading to a ton of sacks. He ran for 2 TD's in the Vikings game, then went next week into GB & got smashed around for 7 sacks & a ton of hits trying to do the same thing. 

And although getting TD's on the ground is great, it's not a good sign when your QB has only 3 passing TD's compared to 4 rushing TD's...and compared to 5 INT's & 5 fumbles. Only surpassing 200 yards passing once in all his starts? He has just as many 100 yard rushing games (well, technically 99). If this wasn't a Bills QB, would anyone honestly see that & think that's normal & a good sign? Only having 1 game of 60% completions, whereas he averaged exactly 50% completions for all other games? Holding onto the ball longer than any QB in the league?

 

I mean, people say we can fix these things, but we haven't seen any progress through this entire season, so what do the coaches have to do different? What makes you believe McDermott, the guy who you've seen handle & evaluate the QB position miserably this entire year, will be the one guy who finally cracks the Josh Allen code & makes him into a QB he's never been, only this time at the most difficult level? He couldn't do it against Mountain West opponents, but facing NFL defenses he'll make that kind of leap? I don't know, nothing like that has ever happened in the NFL, and expecting the Bills of all organizations to do it would be a miracle for the ages.

[eanyills]

On 11/25/2018 at 5:15 PM, Degenerate Mike in HHDS said:

Yah sux when we win

Am I supposed to be impressed that the Bills best two of the worst teams in the league?

 

JOSH ALLEN HAS ARRIVED! HE BEAT THE JAGS! About the only thing we’ve established is that he’s better than Blake Bortles.

Edited November 29, 2018 by eanyills

[oldmanfan]

36 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Any time Allen wins while making a few awesome plays, the majority of people are willing to overlook every glaring issue that has remained consistent since long before he was even a Bill.

I was really entertained at the beginning of the game, and was impressed by his determination running the ball, but it doesn't change his poor accuracy, his inconsistency (which isn't just due to him being a rookie...he's been that way forever), difficulty reading a defense, holding onto the ball too long, etc. But he has some nice strengths too, and deserves to be recognized for them. 

I'm worried he'll look like how he did following up the Vikings game though and try to keep every play alive by running the ball, leading to a ton of sacks. He ran for 2 TD's in the Vikings game, then went next week into GB & got smashed around for 7 sacks & a ton of hits trying to do the same thing. 

And although getting TD's on the ground is great, it's not a good sign when your QB has only 3 passing TD's compared to 4 rushing TD's...and compared to 5 INT's & 5 fumbles. Only surpassing 200 yards passing once in all his starts? He has just as many 100 yard rushing games (well, technically 99). If this wasn't a Bills QB, would anyone honestly see that & think that's normal & a good sign? Only having 1 game of 60% completions, whereas he averaged exactly 50% completions for all other games? Holding onto the ball longer than any QB in the league?

 

I mean, people say we can fix these things, but we haven't seen any progress through this entire season, so what do the coaches have to do different? What makes you believe McDermott, the guy who you've seen handle & evaluate the QB position miserably this entire year, will be the one guy who finally cracks the Josh Allen code & makes him into a QB he's never been, only this time at the most difficult level? He couldn't do it against Mountain West opponents, but facing NFL defenses he'll make that kind of leap? I don't know, nothing like that has ever happened in the NFL, and expecting the Bills of all organizations to do it would be a miracle for the ages.

To say you have not seen any progress in Allen this year is absurd.  People like you made up your minds about the guy the day he was drafted and no matter what he does it won't change your mind.  He's played 6.5 games.  Try some objectivity.

[Billsfan1972]

36 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Any time Allen wins while making a few awesome plays, the majority of people are willing to overlook every glaring issue that has remained consistent since long before he was even a Bill.

I was really entertained at the beginning of the game, and was impressed by his determination running the ball, but it doesn't change his poor accuracy, his inconsistency (which isn't just due to him being a rookie...he's been that way forever), difficulty reading a defense, holding onto the ball too long, etc. But he has some nice strengths too, and deserves to be recognized for them. 

I'm worried he'll look like how he did following up the Vikings game though and try to keep every play alive by running the ball, leading to a ton of sacks. He ran for 2 TD's in the Vikings game, then went next week into GB & got smashed around for 7 sacks & a ton of hits trying to do the same thing. 

And although getting TD's on the ground is great, it's not a good sign when your QB has only 3 passing TD's compared to 4 rushing TD's...and compared to 5 INT's & 5 fumbles. Only surpassing 200 yards passing once in all his starts? He has just as many 100 yard rushing games (well, technically 99). If this wasn't a Bills QB, would anyone honestly see that & think that's normal & a good sign? Only having 1 game of 60% completions, whereas he averaged exactly 50% completions for all other games? Holding onto the ball longer than any QB in the league?

 

I mean, people say we can fix these things, but we haven't seen any progress through this entire season, so what do the coaches have to do different? What makes you believe McDermott, the guy who you've seen handle & evaluate the QB position miserably this entire year, will be the one guy who finally cracks the Josh Allen code & makes him into a QB he's never been, only this time at the most difficult level? He couldn't do it against Mountain West opponents, but facing NFL defenses he'll make that kind of leap? I don't know, nothing like that has ever happened in the NFL, and expecting the Bills of all organizations to do it would be a miracle for the ages.

And I blame it on McD & Daboll and the playcalling.  Very good the first 20 mins and then lacking.  The penalties killed them again, and yes 2-3 not great passes.  However watch Brady and his incompletions and you'll too see a lot of terrible passes.  

 

The issue is the Bills again have too many negative plays or 2nd/3rds & long, which results in lousy situations.  Not much movement on the line, separation by receivers and seem to have forgotten McCoy is a threat more as a pass catcher then runner.

 

Cup half full or empty.  Some always will see it half empty.

[TheElectricCompany]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

To say you have not seen any progress in Allen this year is absurd.  People like you made up your minds about the guy the day he was drafted and no matter what he does it won't change your mind.  He's played 6.5 games.  Try some objectivity.

I think his progression is tied with the scheme and chemistry with teammates.

Do I think he's becoming a more efficient and consistent passer? Not really. 
 

[Chicken Boo]

 

Some of us here are able to look at Allen objectively.  The rest of you are homers, incapable of seeing anything but the good.  Josh Allen is not above criticism.  

 

There is a lot here to be desired.  His ball placement on dump offs, for example or him holding on to the ball for too long.  He has "slow eyes".

 

He is far from a finished product and it's apparent, so don't act surprised when fans point out glaring holes in his game.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Chicken Boo

[Billsfan1972]

18 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Some of us here are able to look at Allen objectively.  The rest of you are homers, incapable of seeing anything but the good.  Josh Allen is not above criticism.  

 

There is a lot here to be desired.  His ball placement on dump offs, for example or him holding on to the ball for too long.  He has "slow eyes".

 

He is far from a finished product and it's apparent, so don't act surprised when fans point out glaring holes in his game.

Watched it and saw 2 bad passes and two others that could have been better.  Otherwise all others seemed fine and his throwaways were perfectly fine too.  Noted the one in the fourth after the 40 yard run and he rolled out, no one was open, and he did exactly what he should have done, throw it away.  

 

He made quick decisions and didn't have a whole lot of time.

 

Sorry way too harsh if you think otherwise.  

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Some of us here are able to look at Allen objectively.  The rest of you are homers, incapable of seeing anything but the good.  Josh Allen is not above criticism.  

 

There is a lot here to be desired.  His ball placement on dump offs, for example or him holding on to the ball for too long.  He has "slow eyes".

 

He is far from a finished product and it's apparent, so don't act surprised when fans point out glaring holes in his game.

I have gone back the last two games he played and looked at each play he ran.  And tried to compare to earlier games like the Packers.  If you watch them, and if you're objective, he's making progress.  He is making reads quicker and getting the ball out quicker.  He is more accurate.  There are still some missed passes, but for example if you look at the Jacksonville game the only truly bad pass was  that WR screen where he dumped the ball at the guy's feet.  He does need to improve on those kinds of passes.  Two passes he missed were communication issues with his WR.  And most other ones he was on target with his throws, some of which were taken away by dumb penalties.  If you watch the Houston game he again was hitting his targets consistently till he got hurt.  So I think this accuracy thing is overblown; people lazily look at completion percentage and don't take into account other variables like drops or wrong routes.

 

As for the "slow eyes" thing, that's just a canard used by guys like McShay who don't really understand the game of football.  Like most any other young QB, Allen needs to learn and have the game slow down for him so he makes quicker reads etc.  That goes hand in hand with holding the ball perhaps a bit too long.  But again, look at the Jacksonville game.  On his long TD pass to Foster, if he doesn't hold on too long, that pass never gets made.  I am still amazed that ball came out as well as it did.  People criticize his running, but that also comes down to reads.  On his one long run, he read that the MLB wasn't watching, and it gave him a huge running lane, so he took it.

 

I have no problem with critiquing the guy; as I have said often he has a long way to go.  I do have a problem with people not actually using their eyes and seeing that he is making progress.  If you don't see that he's making progress, it's because you don't want to see that he's making progress.

 

[Simon Says]

Only 5 teams are averaging 300+ passing yards per game, and that does not  include Brees & New Orleans. Tampa bay leads the league , but at 4-7,hardly a "great team". Falcons, also 4-7, are ranked 4th. It is not all about passing yards ; don't overlook the other facets of the  game.

[Billsfan1972]

24 minutes ago, Pablocruise said:

Only 5 teams are averaging 300+ passing yards per game, and that does not  include Brees & New Orleans. Tampa bay leads the league , but at 4-7,hardly a "great team". Falcons, also 4-7, are ranked 4th. It is not all about passing yards ; don't overlook the other facets of the  game.

Please stop......  This is a passing league & need to be able to do it consistently.  

 

Name me a bad offense that is thriving?

[dakrider]

2 minutes ago, Pablocruise said:

Only 5 teams are averaging 300+ passing yards per game, and that does not  include Brees & New Orleans. Tampa bay leads the league , but at 4-7,hardly a "great team". Falcons, also 4-7, are ranked 4th. It is not all about passing yards ; don't overlook the other facets of the  game.

Often team that have a high amount of passing yards do so because their losing by a lot and have to simply pass the ball and defenses are playing back.  Passing yards has always been a deceptive statistic.  The primary statistic is really number of wins.  Can your quarterback win the game.  Either by playing well all game and making good decisions, not turning the ball over and making necessary plays.  And sometimes by being able to come back in games as well.  

The "slow eyes" thing is stupid.  Quarterbacks are not able to see every player on every play nor make a great pass every play.  I see great QB's make terrible throws every week.  Aaron Rodgers made some real bad throws at the end of his last 2 games I saw including 1 swing pass he threw at the receivers feet.  I've never seen a game where a quarterback has not made some mistakes, interceptions, fumbles, missing a receiver, etc.  To call Allen's mistakes "glaring weaknesses" in his rookie year is ridiculous.  

 

As far as TD passes - the 14 yard TD run was the play call.  They didn't have him pass it.  The 2 runs on at the goal line were also play calls.  Those should have been pass plays with an option to run.  The thing I think Allen is weak on sometimes is the 10 yard pass, where he tries to let off on the ball.  My advice is to not let off, drill the ball in there and receivers need to catch it.  The only time he should worry about touch on his throws are screens and those quick swing passes.  And near the goal line they need to have some more pass plays. The defense are going to be anticipating run so a receiver should have room to get open.  But thats on the coaches too.  

[John from Riverside]

[Chicken Boo]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Watched it and saw 2 bad passes and two others that could have been better.  Otherwise all others seemed fine and his throwaways were perfectly fine too.  Noted the one in the fourth after the 40 yard run and he rolled out, no one was open, and he did exactly what he should have done, throw it away.  

 

He made quick decisions and didn't have a whole lot of time.

 

Sorry way too harsh if you think otherwise.  

 

:16 

1:44

2:39

2:51 - was a bad pass.  Bad placement, awful touch on something that should be routine

3:30

3:57 he had a guy open right in front of him

4:04

 

Only 2 bad passes?  Come on, man.

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

5 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

:16 

1:44

2:39

2:51 - was a bad pass.  Bad placement, awful touch on something that should be routine

3:30

3:57 he had a guy open right in front of him

4:04

 

Only 2 bad passes?  Come on, man.

 

 

:16 Thrown into coverage and broken up.  I'd say a good receiver shields ball from the defender.

1:44 Came after 2 beautiful third down completions called back for holding and a 3rd and 25.  Any throw to KB and can't be sure whether he had a chance to catch it in any case.

2:39 was a perfect pass, coverage was there, but too could have shielded the ball and hung on.

3:30 Was the worst pass of the game

3:57 there were 2 defenders and at best a short completion.  Good job throwing it away.

4:04 Allen hit and not great timing but a 3rd & 14 and tried for the 1st down.

 

I take it even if he goes 28-29, you'll find faults with the incompletion (as Rivers did Sunday) or where the ball was placed? 

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

:16 Thrown into coverage and broken up.  I'd say a good receiver shields ball from the defender.

1:44 Came after 2 beautiful third down completions called back for holding and a 3rd and 25.  Any throw to KB and can't be sure whether he had a chance to catch it in any case.

2:39 was a perfect pass, coverage was there, but too could have shielded the ball and hung on.

3:30 Was the worst pass of the game

3:57 there were 2 defenders and at best a short completion.  Good job throwing it away.

4:04 Allen hit and not great timing but a 3rd & 14 and tried for the 1st down.

 

I take it even if he goes 28-29, you'll find faults with the incompletion (as Rivers did Sunday) or where the ball was placed? 

 

Not true at all, but you can believe you'll have more excuses for bad football like you've demonstrated here.

 

*correction.  2:39 was supposed to be 2:45

Edited November 29, 2018 by Chicken Boo

[26CornerBlitz]

 

[26CornerBlitz]