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corta765

Coach Length To Put Program In

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20 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

I don't believe most fans believe they should automatically get  4 to 5 years. IMHO, I think most believe it is reasonable to give them through next year to show a marked improvement in this team, and that they are capable of achieving what they said they want to do - and what we all want: building a championship caliber team.

 

There are definitely people here who believe these guys should get 5 years for the sake of continuity.

 

If Allen doesn’t make a big leap next year and our offense is still terrible then these guys are probably gone.

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18 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

But but but but McBeane should be fired immediately!

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1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

 

There are definitely people here who believe these guys should get 5 years for the sake of continuity.

 

If Allen doesn’t make a big leap next year and our offense is still terrible then these guys are probably gone.

I think it is a small segment that believes it would be a good idea to give any FO 5 years just for the sake of "continuity," which is ridiculous. Just as I think it is a small segment that believes it would be a good idea to fire a GM after one draft and 1.5 years into a rebuild and a coach 1.5 years into a rebuild - which is equally ridiculous. Again, IMHO, I think most of us are in the camp that it is reasonable to give them through next year. If, at that point, we are not seeing real improvement and real indications this team is headed in the right direction, then, I would image there will be changes.

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18 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

An extra year or two wouldn't have improved the results.

 

The Bills biggest mistake over the past 6 years has been flip flopping between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense pretty much every season. Both schemes require very different players, and flip flopping with coordinators under Gailey, Marrone and Rex really didn't do us any favours. 

For me this is about never having a GM with any power in the organization since Polian. They keep hiring poor GMs who will acquiesce to the owner. Whaley had zero power. Beane is a stand in to McDermott. If they want to fix it, they have to do like the Steelers. Get a good talent guy and let him build it to his liking. Leave him alone to his theory on both sides of the ball. To me this is the biggest problem going back to Ralph. You can't keep changing a good football man because he makes a bad draft pick. I think they fired Whaley too soon. They could have kept him and added Beane as President of operations. Beane is not a GM. He's never worked in talent. He didn't work in talent as a coach or scout like most GMs. Whaley had an eye for talent he was just a poor personality type and he missed on QB. I think a GM should get to miss on 2 or 3 high draft picked QBs before he's fired.

Edited by CuddyDark
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18 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

An extra year or two wouldn't have improved the results.

 

The Bills biggest mistake over the past 6 years has been flip flopping between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense pretty much every season. Both schemes require very different players, and flip flopping with coordinators under Gailey, Marrone and Rex really didn't do us any favours. 

I believe it’s a combination of both. Must hold the course, regardless of fan discontent. 

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Just now, TroutDog said:

I believe it’s a combination of both. Must hold the course, regardless of fan discontent. 

If you believe in the men in charge. Yes men holding a course is wasted time.

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4 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

If you believe in the men in charge. Yes men holding a course is wasted time.

I believe the Pegula’a do. 

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The McBeane plan, as it looks after 1.5 seasons, regressed beyond what any reasonable fan could have imagined. They are near a laughing stock.

 

McD defenders cite the 'D', it would have merit if it wasn't being totally wasted by an offense teetering towards an all time worse.  

 

To think the offense will improve much by next season is wishful thinking. McBeane will need at least through 2020 to show real 'O" improvement.  

 

Lot of painful watching for at least another year and a half before this team can even be possibly considered weekly competitive.

Edited by I am the egg man

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Jason Garrett for OC in 2019. :ph34r:

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19 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

Yes, Jauron kicked ass after being here for 3 1/2 years! ;) :) 

Seriously, almost every person on that list was a terrible hire.  One was worse than the next. Levy/Jauron  would have kept losing if they were here for 50 years.

I still actually think that the team has a better chance to win with the Pegulas. Ralph was done and Brandon was a horror show.

Jmo.

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19 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

An extra year or two wouldn't have improved the results.

 

The Bills biggest mistake over the past 6 years has been flip flopping between a 3-4 and 4-3 defense pretty much every season. Both schemes require very different players, and flip flopping with coordinators under Gailey, Marrone and Rex really didn't do us any favours. 

The funny thing is, almost to a man each one has claimed that they don't run a "true" 3-4 or 4-3, rather, it would be some type of hybrid set that could accomodate players schematically giving both looks based on the in-game situation. It seems like it's too simplistic to say that a D is beholden to one or the other anymore. Rexy for instance tried to run more of his father's 46 setup, and his coaching mentor Billick claimed that what personnel he had on hand dictated what his base look would be. McDermott also claims that he's comfortable with both base looks.

 https://buffalonews.com/2017/01/14/bills-2016-defensive-autopsy-rex-ryan/

 

Here's another one from Rex's Jets days claiming a similar point:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1193999-new-york-jets-why-rex-ryans-defense-is-not-a-3-4

 

And finally, a really good primer on what any of this jargon truly means and more specifically from which coaching tree they were made famous by, as of a few years ago:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1074050-nfl-defensive-schemes-the-basics-of-the-4-3-3-4-and-ryan-defenses

 

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That's a rather personal topic, a coach's length.

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19 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

That is true, but when you have clearly made a mistake in hiring (for example Rex Ryan), it is better to cut the cord quickly. But half of those coaches should have been given longer.

 

It is also worth noting that Marrone left on his own terms. He would have had a third year at least.

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2 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

Or that the teams done a terrible job hiring. How many do you think would’ve been excellent in year 4?

 

Probably not many, but that isn't relevant to the point that 1) no franchise will be successful if they can't find some continuity and 2) people who are screaming for McD's head (some since halftime of the Baltimore game) are idiots.

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21 hours ago, corta765 said:

A lot of people have been commenting that perhaps McD and Beane should be relieved or at least one changed by seasons end. Here is a look at how long coaches have had to put their program in (for better or worse):

 

1996-97- Marv sees Kelly retire and follows suit next season after Todd Collins doesn't pan out

1998-2000 DC Wade Phillips steps in and the team trades for Rob Johnson to be the future while adding longtime vet Flutie. Without rehashing Ralph basically forced Wade's at QB hand to the point it was easier to leave then stay. During this time Jerry Butler runs the show with a pretty strong staff including AJ Smith who turned later helped turn the Chargers around with Butler. (3 years)

2001-2003 Tom Donahoe is brought in to be the new GM after Butler resigns. Donahoe at the time was highly regarded for his work in Pittsburgh and hire's hot DC candidate Greg Williams to be the new head coach. At the time it was believed Williams could bring the defense more success while helping to smooth out the QB situation. Johnson flames out but the Bills get Bledsoe from NE. Williams in the end is relieved but was able to bring his program in. (3 Years)

2003-05 Donahoe brings in Mularkey who has some relative success both never gets a chance to put together a full team due to QB controversy and mgmt change with Donahoe being replaced by Marv. (2 Years)

2006-2009 Dick Jaruon gets the longest chance of any Bills coach with over three and half years to get his team and QB with Edwards being the guy he thought could work. (3 and 1/12 years)

2010-2012 Chan Gailey gets his shot but never gets enough talent on defense nor a chance to pick a QB of his liking. EJ was after Chan by Nix/Whaley (3 years)

2013-2014 Doug Marrone chooses to leave after building a decent program 2 years in despite Manuel's flame out (2 years)

2015-2016 Rex is given a roster with a lot of talent but still chooses to remake it as his own. Taylor being brought in is a plus given prior QB problems but his defense never gets a chance to be fully established due to injury and being relieved just 2 years in (2 years)

 

Overall only Jauron and Williams ever really got a chance to put their true program and QB out there. The rest the cord was pulled before they got a chance or they left. The biggest thing with this you see is how many times the deck had to be refreshed and altered because of a new coach. I really think McD and Beane should get four years just for the fact I want to see a coach for the first time in over 2 decades to truly put his stamp on a team for better or worse.

 

I still don't want McD or Beane fired at season's end (or earlier!), although I reserve the right to change my mind if things get even worse.  I think I advocated for giving McBeane 4 years when they were brought in, and in theory, I stand by that.  In practice, there's no excuse for putting an offense on the field that's this consistently bad.  I don't think they need to make the playoffs in 2019 to save their jobs or anything, but if 2019 is as bad as 2018, they shouldn't be with the team in 2020.  I would ideally like to have some amount of hope by the end of 2018 - young players getting better, the offense scoring on its own once in a while, etc.  But there NEEDS to be something to build on next year, or it's time to move on.  I don't think giving Dick Jauron more time would've helped.  I don't think giving Gregggggo more time would've helped.  I don't think giving Jeff Fisher more time would've helped the Rams.  I don't think giving John Fox more time would've helped the Bears.  For now, I'm willing to give McBeane more time, mostly because of last year.  

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19 hours ago, Maybe Someday said:

&$%# that, I demand satisfaction NOW!!!  McD & Beane haven't done everything exactly as I wanted them to so they need to be fired yesterday.  If the new guys don't field an elite team by week 6 of next year, fire them too.  Eventually they'll hire me and we'll go 19-0 cuz I've got all the answers. 

 

Signed,

Way too many posters on TSW

woahcool so meta!

 

another post about the negative posters complete with a misrepresentation of what people are saying.

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My first reaction to this thread was "who is Coach Length, and what program is he putting in?"

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1 hour ago, CuddyDark said:

For me this is about never having a GM with any power in the organization since Polian. They keep hiring poor GMs who will acquiesce to the owner. Whaley had zero power. Beane is a stand in to McDermott. If they want to fix it, they have to do like the Steelers. Get a good talent guy and let him build it to his liking. Leave him alone to his theory on both sides of the ball. To me this is the biggest problem going back to Ralph. You can't keep changing a good football man because he makes a bad draft pick. I think they fired Whaley too soon. They could have kept him and added Beane as President of operations. Beane is not a GM. He's never worked in talent. He didn't work in talent as a coach or scout like most GMs. Whaley had an eye for talent he was just a poor personality type and he missed on QB. I think a GM should get to miss on 2 or 3 high draft picked QBs before he's fired.

 

I agree with most of this.  Whaley is horrible at public/media relations, but clearly had an eye for evaluating pro talent.  The draft was more of a mixed bag, but not as bad as people might think - there are still a lot of his picks playing in the NFL, just not for the Bills.  If Whaley had been able to hire his own coach, who reported to Whaley rather than to the Pegulas, and actually share a vision for team-building with that coach, things might've been more successful. 

 

Going forward, all indications are that McBeane are in lockstep the way Whaley/coach never were, so that's hopefully good.  I still think it's not ideal for both coach and GM to report to the owner, though, and I don't love that our rookie coach essentially hired his own GM rather than the other way around.  If they don't work out, hopefully the Pegulas ditch both at the same time and start fresh with a GM who's actually in charge.  (And hopefully hire a good one!)  Go Bills!

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20 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

 

Or picking better coaches, who could then pick a decent QB, might be a good idea too.

 

Most of that rogue's gallery of HCs went on to being coordinators again, or are out of the NFL.  Keeping them would have only prolonged the agony of having them.

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20 hours ago, KD in CA said:

After reading that, I'm almost tempted to conclude that cleaning house every 2-3 years might not be the best idea.

 

NO! FIRE EVERYONE! I'M CRANKY AND NEED INSTANT SATISFACTION.

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24 minutes ago, KD in CA said:

 

Probably not many, but that isn't relevant to the point that 1) no franchise will be successful if they can't find some continuity and 2) people who are screaming for McD's head (some since halftime of the Baltimore game) are idiots.

 

To point 1:

 

isnt “finding continuity” actually code for “hiring a coach and system worth keeping”

 

simply keeping someone to avoid change isnt particularly good. That said, the franchise hasn’t shown much in ID’ing leaders to bring in, so who knows if they know who to ship out 

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3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

 

To point 1:

 

isnt “finding continuity” actually code for “hiring a coach and system worth keeping”

 

simply keeping someone to avoid change isnt particularly good. That said, the franchise hasn’t shown much in ID’ing leaders to bring in, so who knows if they know who to ship out 

 

Indeed.

 

It should be intuitive that "successful franchises" find good coaches, therefore "continuity" naturally follows.

 

Teams don't "find continuity"...they find good coaches or they don't. 

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21 minutes ago, Cash said:

 

I agree with most of this.  Whaley is horrible at public/media relations, but clearly had an eye for evaluating pro talent.  The draft was more of a mixed bag, but not as bad as people might think - there are still a lot of his picks playing in the NFL, just not for the Bills.  If Whaley had been able to hire his own coach, who reported to Whaley rather than to the Pegulas, and actually share a vision for team-building with that coach, things might've been more successful. 

 

Imo Whaley had no self control. Sure, Sammy was "good." This is beyond dispute but for 2 1sts and a 4th and having no quarterback? Whaley just couldn't/wouldn't stop giving away our picks.

Sadly, Buffalo doesn't seem to be very high on the list of places where free agents want to play. For this reason we need more, not less draft choices and they need to be properly utilized. Whaley was decent at recognizing talent, but he never would have won here imo. Not with those stupid trades.

Edited by Bill from NYC

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