Warcodered Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, joesixpack said: So basically, threaten to fire him, if not fire him outright. More of the same. Thanks for the effort, I do appreciate you putting something forward, but it's kind of clear where your feelings about the current regime lie. You want to repeat the pattern of the past 20 years and give people three years or less. Nah, I'll pass. I'm really confused wasn't this supposed to be a bad year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, Warcodered said: I'm really confused wasn't this supposed to be a bad year? it was. but a significantly vocal portion of the fan base just can't accept it. and they're going to make sure you hear their displeasure...over...and over....and over...and over... and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris66 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 At least he didnt say " its hard to win in the nfl" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 37 minutes ago, Shaw66 said: Well, that's well put, and I agree to some extent. They've said it before - they will take not take a guy with talent who doesn't fit the culture. So that means, I think, that they want to fill the locker room with guys who fit the culture, and they will improve the talent as they can. I get that. However, I don't see why it should mean that you have to do that with coaching. Why can't you have coaches who fit the culture and who ALSO are good at Xs and Os. What some of us have been talking about is that the offense seems remarkably ineffective, and I think that's more about coaching than talent. I mean, this talent on offense isn't going to light up everyone, but it should at least be able to SCORE once in a while. Is McDermott telling us that Daboll isn't so good at strategy, but he's good at culture and that's all the Bills need right now? If so, I think McDermott is wrong. This is his second offensive coordinator in two years, and he shouldn't have swung and missed twice at hiring someone who actually could figure out how to move the ball. i'm with you here. i don't expect dominant play, but i also don't expect this team to sleepwalk through the games like they have. i'm not sure it's a daboll issue, but i don't know a ton about him as a coach. if mcdermott really thinks this on daboll, then what? can you have 3 coordinators in 3 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I know of no successful organizations that do not have a successful culture. When he says culture trumps strategy it means you can have the best plays called, best coaching, etc. but if guys aren't committed to work and improvement it won't mean much. I note some here saying he does not want talent. That is nowhere to be found in his statement. His and Beane's jobs are to bring talent in and mold it into a successful team. But if the talent is not part of a broader success mindset and culture the talent will not be as successful as it should be. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, joesixpack said: it was. but a significantly vocal portion of the fan base just can't accept it. and they're going to make sure you hear their displeasure...over...and over....and over...and over... and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over... I can accept the "build"..but if he thinks a guy who works harder and celebrates with the team but cant separate from a DB is more important than a me-first diva receiver who is always playing for his next contract but separates and creates mismatches all over the field...that is not a "strategy" i can buy into . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philo Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I know of no successful organizations that do not have a successful culture. When he says culture trumps strategy it means you can have the best plays called, best coaching, etc. but if guys aren't committed to work and improvement it won't mean much. I note some here saying he does not want talent. That is nowhere to be found in his statement. His and Beane's jobs are to bring talent in and mold it into a successful team. But if the talent is not part of a broader success mindset and culture the talent will not be as successful as it should be. Yeah, I don't know why some posters have brought up talent when it's not what he is addressing. The question he was asked and his answer is in regard to coaching, team building, and thus team cohesion/atmosphere. I think he is trying to say that having the right guys with the right mindset will be better for the team overall than specific X's and O's in the long run. Either way, he knows you have to have the talent to execute, just not lazy or selfish talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, plenzmd1 said: I can accept the "build"..but if he thinks a guy who works harder and celebrates with the team but cant separate from a DB is more important than a me-first diva receiver who is always playing for his next contract but separates and creates mismatches all over the field...that is not a "strategy" i can buy into . So, with that being said let's see who they've drafted: Edmunds White Milano Allen Phillips Johnson Neal ALL look like really good gets. Could it be maybe that NEXT year is when they go hard on Offense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeHateMe Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Culture has to trump strategy around here because these guys don't know what strategy is.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, joesixpack said: So, with that being said let's see who they've drafted: Edmunds White Milano Allen Phillips Johnson Neal ALL look like really good gets. Could it be maybe that NEXT year is when they go hard on Offense? i said I am okay with a "build" ...but even you have to agree that statement about culture over strategy is insane..if Gaily said that you would have gone ballistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, joesixpack said: So basically, threaten to fire him, if not fire him outright. More of the same. Thanks for the effort, I do appreciate you putting something forward, but it's kind of clear where your feelings about the current regime lie. You want to repeat the pattern of the past 20 years and give people three years or less. Nah, I'll pass. It is not my preference but the current regime, right now, has displayed outright negligence. I applaud the the investment in draft picks required to get a QB, even if it may have been a year late. But surrounding that QB with horrendous talent and scheme and exposing him to injury is not a smart plan and it needs to be fixed ASAP. To be clear: it is fixable. But messing around with a long-term "culture change" is not what I'd want to hear about if I were the owner, at this point. They have a young QB getting beaten to a pulp. Edited October 3, 2018 by Coach Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said: i said I am okay with a "build" ...but even you have to agree that statement about culture over strategy is insane..if Gaily said that you would have gone ballistic. Considering I liked Chan, I doubt it. I think his statement is one of "we want guys with talent AND effort." That's what he means by culture, but people here have their preconceived ideas about what he means. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeHateMe Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Is Kelvin Benjamin a culture guy then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, joesixpack said: Considering I liked Chan, I doubt it. I think his statement is one of "we want guys with talent AND effort." That's what he means by culture, but people here have their preconceived ideas about what he means. i get what he means by culture..Marv used character the same way Sean uses culture...Marv always meant he wanted guys with "football" character" ..as MCD said today, not choir boys. But hard work and talent need strategy in today's NFL..teams are winning by outthinking and out scheming other teams...strategy is just part of today's game..it is no longer..just beat the guy in front of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 52 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Yeah I value culture as well........but the problem with a culture based re-build is that a seamless transition then requires someone that the players trust will put them in position to win. You hire a Marty Schottenheimer type who has proven he can win to do a culture based re-build and then hope the football evolves. You hire a Sean McVay type to do a football based re-build and hope the culture develops FROM winning. McD obviously felt that he didn't have the cred to pull off what he wanted to do without ridding his roster of skeptics..........and naturally your more talented players.....who are the least concerned about their own job security....... are the most likely to be openly skeptical of a lackluster hire. So here we are. A wanna-be Schottenheimer trying to fake it til' he makes it before his expiration date arrives. i can't argue too much with this, and i especially agree with the bolded. i don't think you can build on a culture model. culture is important, but it's something that developed every time. I don't think BB walked on as the coach of the pats and just installed a culture. they landed on a qb, but systems in place, kept consistency, and the winning culture appeared. my hope for this staff is that the offseason is drastic. they put themselves in this situation, so i'm very curious to see if they can get themselves out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said: it is no longer..just beat the guy in front of you! Jacksonville made it to the AFCCG and nearly won it by doing just that. So, I get that media wankers don't like to admit it, but that IS a valid way to win nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkeerie Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 12 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I know of no successful organizations that do not have a successful culture. When he says culture trumps strategy it means you can have the best plays called, best coaching, etc. but if guys aren't committed to work and improvement it won't mean much. I note some here saying he does not want talent. That is nowhere to be found in his statement. His and Beane's jobs are to bring talent in and mold it into a successful team. But if the talent is not part of a broader success mindset and culture the talent will not be as successful as it should be. Thank you for saying this. It seems some folks heard "Culture is the only thing." That is not at all what was said. We were not a talented team last year...yet we won more than we lost. We are getting more talented on the defensive side of the football. Allen hopefully adds an important piece to the offense, but clearly offensive talent is what is lacking this year. The jury is out on our offensive coaching. I don't understand what Daboll is trying to do from week to week. Running the football does not appear to be part of his overall plan. Yes...this is a passing league, but you can't have a good passing game without talent...and without a respected run game. Weren't there a couple other OC's that McDermott wanted his first year that signed with different teams? The good OCs in the league are taken, so McDermott went to one of the most talented college teams (Alabama) to grab Daboll...who also happened to be from the area so he was easy to attract. I think we have to wait and see what develops. McDermott though is obviously not pleased with the current direction. He just isn't the type to throw anyone under the bus publicly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COTC Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Warcodered said: I'm really confused wasn't this supposed to be a bad year? We went from playoff potential to worse team in the league... We were supposed to build on last years success. Josh McDanials is to Tim Tebow as McDermott is to Josh Allen. Edited October 3, 2018 by COTC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 43 minutes ago, joesixpack said: And you'll be able to cast that judgement before it even has a chance to come to fruition? Me? My judgement doesn't matter. But Allen is on pace to set an NFL record for sacks in a season, and if he is IR'd or suffers the sort of injuries that tend to curtain a QB's career (multiple concussions, back or shoulder) I would say that's the judgement right there. Tell me what you mean by "chance to come to fruition" though? 3 minutes ago, COTC said: Josh McDanials is to Tim Tebow as McDermott is to Josh Allen. Oh, now, that's harsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dablitzkrieg Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 I think the majority of people are really overreacting juuuuuuuust a bit here. We all knew (at least the smart fans) that the team was going to suck. Enjoy the ride people 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said: Me? My judgement doesn't matter. But Allen is on pace to set an NFL record for sacks in a season, and if he is IR'd or suffers the sort of injuries that tend to curtain a QB's career (multiple concussions, back or shoulder) I would say that's the judgement right there. Tell me what you mean by "chance to come to fruition" though? I mean that the general consensus is that this coming offseason is the part of the plan where they spend coin and picks on offense. So, if you can these guys now, you've effectively fired them before they even had a chance to execute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 4 minutes ago, COTC said: We went from playoff potential to worse team in the league... We were supposed to build on last years success. Josh McDanials is to Tim Tebow as McDermott is to Josh Allen. i don't think there was anyone that though this year was going to be a continuation of last year. most realized there would be a step back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Dablitzkrieg said: I think the majority of people are really overreacting juuuuuuuust a bit here. We all knew (at least the smart fans) that the team was going to suck. Enjoy the ride people This thread is evidence of what happens when feelings overtake logic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COTC Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, teef said: i don't think there was anyone that though this year was going to be a continuation of last year. most realized there would be a step back. I expected us to be in a similar situation as the Titans. Not worse the the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, COTC said: I expected us to be in a similar situation as the Titans. Not worse the the league. i actually responded to your post in another thread. i don't think it's an apples to apples comparison to the titans at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dablitzkrieg Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, COTC said: I expected us to be in a similar situation as the Titans. Not worse the the league. Arizona is the worst team in the league right now..by a mile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, joesixpack said: I mean that the general consensus is that this coming offseason is the part of the plan where they spend coin and picks on offense. So, if you can these guys now, you've effectively fired them before they even had a chance to execute. I want no part of that...they got this and at least two more..unless Allen is a 100% total bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, plenzmd1 said: I want no part of that...they got this and at least two more..unless Allen is a 100% total bust. Well, that's good. There are people here who could conceive of them being fired THIS year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stony Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, joesixpack said: I mean that the general consensus is that this coming offseason is the part of the plan where they spend coin and picks on offense. So, if you can these guys now, you've effectively fired them before they even had a chance to execute. I have no desire to can these guys now. That would be stupid. But its fair to criticize their decision to strip the offense and delay laying any foundation of talent on that side of the ball while throwing Allen into the furnace. They've effectively burnt a year of his rookie deal and possibly stunted a year of his development. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 5 minutes ago, COTC said: We went from playoff potential to worse team in the league... We were supposed to build on last years success. Josh McDanials is to Tim Tebow as McDermott is to Josh Allen. I think most people realize that last year's Bills team was a bad team that somehow backed into the playoffs. McDermott and Beane also got rid of the best players on both sides of the ball and went with a rookie QB and Nate Peterman. I think building is accurate with regard to what to expect this season; but being anywhere close to "successful" (wins/playoffs) as last year's team? Good God, no. And I've tried, but I can't make sense of your McDaniels/Tebow to McDermott/Allen connection. An offense-minded coach with arguably the worst QB in the history of the NFL being compared to a defense-minded coach with a rookie QB who's made 3 (three) (tres) career starts. You got me stumped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, joesixpack said: Well, that's good. There are people here who could conceive of them being fired THIS year. doesn't mean can't B word when he says something stupid in his coach speak?!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 22 minutes ago, joesixpack said: Considering I liked Chan, I doubt it. I think his statement is one of "we want guys with talent AND effort." That's what he means by culture, but people here have their preconceived ideas about what he means. ...why not?.....aren't those key components of a culture so you can build you winning strategy?.....what did I miss?...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 Just now, ScottLaw said: I think it's more about having no choice but to play Allen because of their gigantic mismanagement of the QBs considering the state on of the offensive line and receivers. Keeping Tyrod or McCarron while allowing Allen to ride the bench and not get his ass kicked would've been ideal. Instead they went with the worst starting QB in the history of the game because of process and effort and of course he was !@#$ing terrible giving them no choice but to go with Allen. The trades of Tyrod and McCarron while getting us draft picks are looking like awful decisions at the moment. But that's what I'm saying - if this is going to be the New Normal for 2018, you're better off signing a street QB and letting him take the pounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 17 minutes ago, jkeerie said: The jury is out on our offensive coaching. I don't understand what Daboll is trying to do from week to week. Running the football does not appear to be part of his overall plan. Yes...this is a passing league, but you can't have a good passing game without talent...and without a respected run game. Good post. I've been discussing the bolded point with some folks in PM. Daboll's play calling often simply does not make situationally appropriate sense to me. Example: in the all-22 thread, some tweets by Sal dissect our second offensive series. On 1 and 10 from our 6, Sal critiques Allen for hesitating on a 2 yd slant to Benjamin. We are in max-protect 22 personnel and Allen has plenty of time. When I first looked at the play, I thought Sal was mistaken and the actual 1st read was Zay Jones, open downfield. When I went back and looked at Allen's eyes though, he never looks at Zay. So maybe Sal is right and the 2 yd slant is it. Max protect on first down on the goal line for a 2 yd slant, WTF? Then on 3rd and 10, Daboll dials up a 4 WR play. Yet all but one of the 4 WR run routes well short of the marker such that a completion would likely force a punt. WTF, on 3rd and 10 at the 6, 3 of 4 WR running routes short of the marker? That would be a great play for 1st or 2nd down, if you win you move the chains, if you lose you get 4-5 yds. I think running the football is part of what Daboll wants to do but our run blocking is so bad at times he usually can't achieve it. Which of course, begs the question - why? We had many of the same guys and weren't quite as "Keystone Cops" last year. It's not just we're beaten or we can't get a push (though that happens), it's ineffective cutting and assignment confusion. I guess my jury is still open to evidence, but their butts are kind of squirming on those hard oak seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 So at around 13:40 he starts talking about talent and how he feels about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 ...so if McDermott is a one trick pony as far as defensive background and the offense continues to sputter, how long do you think McBeane sticks around as the dog being wagged by the tail as far as personnel decisions?....Andy wields a heavy hand on the GM side in KC but he's proven.......Chip Kelly tried and failed.....is this what McDermott sees his role as with McBeane the order taker?.....should be REAL successful............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 funny how so many have turned on the guy in such a short time, even the petty nicknames thrown at him. seems he was the HC when the drought was broke but instead of crediting him, just excuse that fact and call it luck or if it wasn't for this or wasn't for that they'd be in year 18 of the drought. one season, 4 games in to the second and the torches and pitchforks are waving mercilessly for his head. shame, just shows that most of the know it alls around here are not willing to give him time, no patience with that crowd for sure. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkeerie Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 11 minutes ago, Warcodered said: So at around 13:40 he starts talking about talent and how he feels about it. Talent and habits...you've got something. Talent without habits, he wants no part of. Case in point, Vontaze Burfict, Bengals LB. Very talented...but the only habit he has is hot-tempered stupidity. He cost his team a playoff victory against the Steelers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 17 minutes ago, joesixpack said: I mean that the general consensus is that this coming offseason is the part of the plan where they spend coin and picks on offense. So, if you can these guys now, you've effectively fired them before they even had a chance to execute. Ah, OK, thanks for clarifying. I think I get you now. For me, I would say it's a potential example of the "sunk costs fallacy". McBeane had a plan involving clearing cap, pruning dead wood off the roster, and building around the key pieces of a LT, QB, MLB, and shutdown corner. They made playoffs by a fluke last year with a talent-depleted roster, and this year's plan was to stick it out through some growing pains with the new pieces and add talent next year. I think we all agree that was the plan? Your argument is, let them finish their plan, add talent next year in draft and FA, see where that goes, and then judge. We have sunk a lot of investment in these guys and their plan, right? My point (and this isn't what I'm arguing for, just my guess at what might happen) is that the above is predicated on the display of an appropriate level of football competence given the talent we have. The coaches need to be able to protect the investment in their key-piece QB one way or the other. They need to craft play designs that work with the talent we have and make situationally appropriate playcalls. And they need to show the ability to get the most out of the team on a consistent basis. If they do, fine, stay the course, steady as she goes or as you say, give them a "chance to execute" If they don't, it's just like any business investment where businessmen evaluate the performance of an asset and say "yeah, we will lose our sunk costs, but we don't see evidence that this investment is in the right hands to be turned around" It's saying "you don't get a chance to execute 'cuz we don't see enough evidence that you can execute." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 ......just not sure an Owner hiring his HC who then goes out and finds a GM to his liking regardless of prior affiliations is the right way.......seems a bit azz backwards and if it's implied your HC has that much power, where does the GM realistically stand in the grand scheme of things?.....just a thought....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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