Vontae money coming back

[K-9]

8 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said:

the way I read it was at the end of the year if he was on the 46 for 16 games..he would get the $750K. The incentive itself sounds asinine to me, and i am sure there had to be protections for injury..or his agent should never negotiate another contract in the NFL.

 

I mean just think if that was the case, the Bills were sitting at 2-9..and they sat him one game to save the $750K.So something seems off, but at face value in that article I wonder if Davis is the back of his head was "damn, this team sat me to save the $750K..they are not about winning, what am I doing out here"

 

Its a weird situation for sure

Damn, I gotta read that article again. I totally misread the numbers, apparently. 

 

I agree that the incentive may seem odd on the surface, but this was a player in decline and coming off surgery for an injury. He didn't garner a lot of interest around the league, either, as a FA. 

 

I seriously doubt the Bills would deliberately sit anyone just to save $750k, though. They had legitimate reasons to keep him out of game one. Chief among them was his dismal preseason performance.  

1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said:

Hey @K-9    rereading it think maybe a TOTAL of 750K, or about $46K for each game he was on the 46...so he forfeited $46K...certainly not enough for the Bills to do it for cap puposes

Thanks. I shouldn't read articles in a hurry. That prorated 1/16th share sounds reasonable. 

[CuddyDark]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You hypothesized that Vontae could "force" the Bills to put him on IR, where the injury guarantees in his vet contract would presumably take over.

The motivation for a team to IR a player is to clear a spot on the 53 man roster, right? 

Since the Bills currently requested and received a roster exemption, they have no motivation to place Davis on IR.

It means they can fill the 53 man roster without counting Davis. 

 

 

 

 

I believe IR is more than for a roster spot. It has contract implications for the player and the team.

[Mr. WEO]

Reading he thread title, I thought he was coming back to the Bills as "Vontae Money"....

[CuddyDark]

16 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Yes signing a former pro bowl player is a total lack of judgement.....

 

When the bills get their money back are you going to try to fall back to this arguement?   It doesnt matter that they got their money back because they shouldnt have taken a chance on a former pro bowl player

Piss poor judgement. Not only Davis signing. The entire offseason is poor judgement and direction for the organization long term. Especially in free agency.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Ol Dirty B said:

Why do people even care if the Bills get the money back? 

 

Because a) he doesn't deserve it and b) the Bills will have even more cap room next year because of it.

 

51 minutes ago, JohnC said:

As you stated Gaines wanted a longer term and richer contract than the Bills were willing to give him. So he signed a one year deal with the Browns. Although it would have been preferable for the Bills to sign him to a one year deal the player wasn't going to agree to it. Gaines signed  a deal that was cheaper than what Davis got. But that was Gaines choice. So the Bills took another option. It didn't work out well but you can't always foresee what is going to unfold. 

 

In hindsight most people would have wanted to keep Gaines.. But the organization didn't feel that the contract numbers and term was the right way to go. This is a system of frequent player movement. Sometimes the organization has the upper hand and other times the player has the upper hand in deciding what the options are. Gaines didn't like his option here so he moved on even at the expense of taking a lesser and shorter term contract. It's just the nature of the business you have to contend with. 

 

Yup.  Sometimes you overplay your hand, thinking you're more valuable than you are, and end up screwing yourself.

 

37 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Not a money saving move. Players on the 53 man roster get paid their salary, regardless if they're active or not on game day. So Davis made his 1/16 salary for game one and, even though it could be argued he doesn't deserve it, he also earned his 1/16 for game two. 

 

He "earned" just 1/32 since he retired at halftime.

[K-9]

Just now, Doc said:

 

Because a) he doesn't deserve it and b) the Bills will have even more cap room next year because of it.

 

 

Yup.  Sometimes you overplay your hand, thinking you're more valuable than you are, and end up screwing yourself.

 

 

He "earned" just 1/32 since he retired at halftime.

"Earned" is a generous way of putting it. And if the NFL delineated to that fractional degree, I'd only give him that 1/32nd share. 

[John from Riverside]

54 minutes ago, CuddyDark said:

Piss poor judgement. Not only Davis signing. The entire offseason is poor judgement and direction for the organization long term. Especially in free agency.

Thank you for confirming your bias

[aceman_16]

22 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

He can keep the partially used socks...

He can't because he was juked out of them during the game.

Edited September 20, 2018 by aceman_16
Phone sucks

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Just now, aceman_16 said:

He can't because he was juked out of them during the game.

 

Whoever wants to claim he actually quit at half time need to watch his play first half. 

 

He was avoiding cotact everywhere.

 

Feigned minimal effort of that loose ball. 

[CuddyDark]

25 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Thank you for confirming your bias

You're welcome.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, plenzmd1 said:

the way I read it was at the end of the year if he was on the 46 for 16 games..he would get the $750K. The incentive itself sounds asinine to me, and i am sure there had to be protections for injury..or his agent should never negotiate another contract in the NFL.

 

Nah, that's not how it works.  It's divided into 16 portions.  He gets 1/16th if he's active on the 46 each week, and a lower amount each week he's on the 53

You're absolutely correct no reputable agent would negotiate an incentive that would be so easily lost through being inactive due to injury or through the team being incentivized to make him a healthy scratch.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, CuddyDark said:

I believe IR is more than for a roster spot. It has contract implications for the player and the team.

 

Yes, it has contract implications for a player.  Most veteran players have a clause that guarantees them full pay while on IR (rookies have an "up-down" - a lower minimum salary while on IR).  If Vontae were to go on IR, he would get paid.

 

A team, on the other hand, has little or no financial benefit to putting a veteran player on IR (they may save some per-game roster bonus bucks, which are usually chump change from the NFL perspective)  From a team's POV, IR sucks - it means you gotta pay a player to sit around, even if they recover after a month and could play again.

 

Thus a team's only motivation to place a vet player on IR is to free up a roster spot while retaining a player's rights.  There is little to no financial benefit to them in IR'ing a guy.

 

The Bills got a roster exemption for Davis.  Thus there is no way he can "force" them to put him on IR as you speculated.  He has no leverage for that.

[LSHMEAB]

I've never really understood why fans care so much about the money players make/keep unless it pertains to the cap.

 

Baseball fans whine all the time about bad contracts. "Miguel Cabrera is stealing money from the Tigers." As a Tigers fan, I couldn't care less. I understand that theoretically that money could be spent elsewhere, but I doubt many sports owners are financially precluded from signing anyone they wish.

 

Granted Vontae is pretty unusual in that he up and quit during the middle of a game, but the passion about players and money seems odd.

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I've never really understood why fans care so much about the money players make/keep unless it pertains to the cap.

 

Baseball fans whine all the time about bad contracts. "Miguel Cabrera is stealing money from the Tigers." As a Tigers fan, I couldn't care less. I understand that theoretically that money could be spent elsewhere, but I doubt many sports owners are financially precluded from signing anyone they wish.

 

Granted Vontae is pretty unusual in that he up and quit during the middle of a game, but the passion about players and money seems odd.

 

Even if there were no cap implications, I'd still vehemently maintain that Davis should have to repay most of the money he got because he did not earn it. 

[John from Riverside]

8 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

I've never really understood why fans care so much about the money players make/keep unless it pertains to the cap.

 

Baseball fans whine all the time about bad contracts. "Miguel Cabrera is stealing money from the Tigers." As a Tigers fan, I couldn't care less. I understand that theoretically that money could be spent elsewhere, but I doubt many sports owners are financially precluded from signing anyone they wish.

 

Granted Vontae is pretty unusual in that he up and quit during the middle of a game, but the passion about players and money seems odd.

Ever play a team sport?

[LSHMEAB]

22 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Even if there were no cap implications, I'd still vehemently maintain that Davis should have to repay most of the money he got because he did not earn it. 

 

I don't disagree. I just don't really care what x player gets unless it affects the team. In that scenario, I fault the GM for making a mistake.

 

Like I said, this situation is unique in that the guy up and left in the middle of the game. I'll give you that much. 

25 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Ever play a team sport?

Yes. Why?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Good, friggin loser.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

I don't disagree. I just don't really care what x player gets unless it affects the team. In that scenario, I fault the GM for making a mistake.

 

Like I said, this situation is unique in that the guy up and left in the middle of the game. I'll give you that much. 

Yes. Why?

Ever have a teammate quit on you in the middle of a game

 

better yet ever had a teammate quit on you in a playoff or championship game?

[Punching Bag]

6 hours ago, SouthNYfan said:

 

Both of them get their money

They just raise ticket, merch, etc prices 

 

Cap does not work that way but you are welcome to send donations.

[SouthNYfan]

15 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Cap does not work that way but you are welcome to send donations.

 

What are you talking about?

When the cap goes up and the owners have to spend more, where do you think that money comes from?

Not from their bottom line

From the pockets of the fans

[Tuco]

Here's where it's at. Until VD is technically retired he still counts against the cap. And everything from game 2 counts even though he quit halfway through - at least for now. If the Bills want to go after 1/2 a games money they will have to go through an arbitrator. Until then, VD's 2 games count.

 

Before the season VD had a cap charge of an even $5,000,000. This is broken down in the following manner-

 

Base salary - $2,250,000 

Signing bonus - $1,500,000

Workout bonus -$250,000

Roster bonus - $250,000

 

These amounts total $4,250,000

 

In addition, VD had a weekly roster bonus (it's not that uncommon by the way) of either-

$46,875 if on the 46 man roster (X 16 games = $750,000), or-

$15,625 if only on the 53 man roster (X 16 games = $250,000).

 

It's one or the other above each week, not both.

 

Before the season the NFL looked at the contract and decided the $46,875 per week was a "Likely To Be Earned" (LTBE) incentive, so they charged that amount ($750,000) against the cap at the start of the year (LTBE incentives that aren't earned get refunded as the season goes on).

 

The $750,000 added to the $4,250,000 is where the total cap charge of $5,000,000 VD had before the season comes from. Now if you look at the Spotrac page, it now shows a cap charge of $4,312,500. The roster bonus that used to show $250,000 now shows $312,500. That's because the roster bonus for week 1 ($15,625) and week 2 ($46,875) have been paid and added to the $250,000 roster bonus figure. That brings the original $4,250,000 up to $4,312,500. Or, more specifically, since the announced retirement, the league (or at least Spotrac) have decided the remaining weekly roster bonuses are no longer LTBE so no longer charged, bringing his current charge down to $4,312,500.

 

Where we are at this point. VD hasn't been officially retired by the league. Technically he could walk back in and say he changed his mind and still wants to play. If so the Bills would have to decide to release him (letting him keep almost all his guaranteed salary and SB), or accept him back, possibly with suspensions and fines for conduct detrimental, etc. Maybe even so far as seeking to have the contract voided by an arbitrator. Either way, If VD changes his mind it would be very ugly. So let's say he stays retired. 

 

If VD is deemed officially retired he will get to keep his first 2 game checks plus the per game roster bonuses. Base salary is divided by the 17 weeks of the season, so he keeps the 2/17 ($264,706) of his base salary, plus the $62,500 per game bonuses. Also he keeps the $250,000 original roster bonus and the $250,000 workout bonus, whatever that all adds up to. We'll get to his signing bonus below.

 

Once he becomes officially retired the Bills will get cap relief in the amounts of $687,500 for the no longer LTBE weekly roster bonuses (according to Spotrac they already have, whatev).  They will also be refunded $1,985,294 (15/17 of the $2,250,000 base salary) for a total of  $2,672,794 towards the cap.

 

Additionally, they have the right via the CBA to request repayment of 15/17 of the $1,500,000 signing bonus. If VD repays it they get credit immediately. If not the Bills will have to go through a system arbitrator who would most likely award them an additional $1,323,529. So all told, the Bills could eventually recieve $3,996,323 in salary cap refunds. Plus, I suppose, they could also go through the system arbitrator for 1/2 of a game's refunds. No telling how that would go. It's never been done before.

Edited September 20, 2018 by Tuco

[Helpmenow]

Charlie warner can get his number back now.

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Tuco said:

Here's where it's at. Until VD is technically retired he still counts against the cap. And everything from game 2 counts even though he quit halfway through - at least for now. If the Bills want to go after 1/2 a games money they will have to go through an arbitrator. Until then, VD's 2 games count.

 

Before the season VD had a cap charge of an even $5,000,000. This is broken down in the following manner-

 

Base salary - $2,250,000 

Signing bonus - $1,500,000

Workout bonus -$250,000

Roster bonus - $250,000

 

These amounts total $4,250,000

 

In addition, VD had a weekly roster bonus (it's not that uncommon by the way) of either-

$46,875 if on the 46 man roster (X 16 games = $750,000), or-

$15,625 if only on the 53 man roster (X 16 games = $250,000).

 

It's one or the other above each week, not both.

 

Before the season the NFL looked at the contract and decided the $46,875 per week was a "Likely To Be Earned" (LTBE) incentive, so they charged that amount ($750,000) against the cap at the start of the year (LTBE incentives that aren't earned get refunded as the season goes on).

 

The $750,000 added to the $4,250,000 is where the total cap charge of $5,000,000 VD had before the season comes from. Now if you look at the Spotrac page, it now shows a cap charge of $4,312,500. The roster bonus that used to show $250,000 now shows $312,500. That's because the roster bonus for week 1 ($15,625) and week 2 ($46,875) have been paid and added to the $250,000 roster bonus figure. That brings the original $4,250,000 up to $4,312,500. Or, more specifically, since the announced retirement, the league (or at least Spotrac) have decided the remaining weekly roster bonuses are no longer LTBE so no longer charged, bringing his current charge down to $4,312,500.

 

Where we are at this point. VD hasn't been officially retired by the league. Technically he could walk back in and say he changed his mind and still wants to play. If so the Bills would have to decide to release him (letting him keep almost all his guaranteed salary and SB), or accept him back, possibly with suspensions and fines for conduct detrimental, etc. Maybe even so far as seeking to have the contract voided by an arbitrator. Either way, If VD changes his mind it would be very ugly. So let's say he stays retired. 

 

If VD is deemed officially retired he will get to keep his first 2 game checks plus the per game roster bonuses. Base salary is divided by the 17 weeks of the season, so he keeps the 2/17 ($264,706) of his base salary, plus the $62,500 per game bonuses. Also he keeps the $250,000 original roster bonus and the $250,000 workout bonus, whatever that all adds up to. We'll get to his signing bonus below.

 

Once he becomes officially retired the Bills will get cap relief in the amounts of $687,500 for the no longer LTBE weekly roster bonuses (according to Spotrac they already have, whatev).  They will also be refunded $1,985,294 (15/17 of the $2,250,000 base salary) for a total of  $2,672,794 towards the cap.

 

Additionally, they have the right via the CBA to request repayment of 15/17 of the $1,500,000 signing bonus. If VD repays it they get credit immediately. If not the Bills will have to go through a system arbitrator who would most likely award them an additional $1,323,529. So all told, the Bills could eventually recieve $3,996,323 in salary cap refunds. Plus, I suppose, they could also go through the system arbitrator for 1/2 of a game's refunds. No telling how that would go. It's never been done before.

Outstanding summary. Thanks. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

1 hour ago, Tuco said:

Here's where it's at. Until VD is technically retired he still counts against the cap. And everything from game 2 counts even though he quit halfway through - at least for now. If the Bills want to go after 1/2 a games money they will have to go through an arbitrator. Until then, VD's 2 games count.

 

Before the season VD had a cap charge of an even $5,000,000. This is broken down in the following manner-

 

Base salary - $2,250,000 

Signing bonus - $1,500,000

Workout bonus -$250,000

Roster bonus - $250,000

 

These amounts total $4,250,000

 

In addition, VD had a weekly roster bonus (it's not that uncommon by the way) of either-

$46,875 if on the 46 man roster (X 16 games = $750,000), or-

$15,625 if only on the 53 man roster (X 16 games = $250,000).

 

It's one or the other above each week, not both.

 

Before the season the NFL looked at the contract and decided the $46,875 per week was a "Likely To Be Earned" (LTBE) incentive, so they charged that amount ($750,000) against the cap at the start of the year (LTBE incentives that aren't earned get refunded as the season goes on).

 

The $750,000 added to the $4,250,000 is where the total cap charge of $5,000,000 VD had before the season comes from. Now if you look at the Spotrac page, it now shows a cap charge of $4,312,500. The roster bonus that used to show $250,000 now shows $312,500. That's because the roster bonus for week 1 ($15,625) and week 2 ($46,875) have been paid and added to the $250,000 roster bonus figure. That brings the original $4,250,000 up to $4,312,500. Or, more specifically, since the announced retirement, the league (or at least Spotrac) have decided the remaining weekly roster bonuses are no longer LTBE so no longer charged, bringing his current charge down to $4,312,500.

 

Where we are at this point. VD hasn't been officially retired by the league. Technically he could walk back in and say he changed his mind and still wants to play. If so the Bills would have to decide to release him (letting him keep almost all his guaranteed salary and SB), or accept him back, possibly with suspensions and fines for conduct detrimental, etc. Maybe even so far as seeking to have the contract voided by an arbitrator. Either way, If VD changes his mind it would be very ugly. So let's say he stays retired. 

 

If VD is deemed officially retired he will get to keep his first 2 game checks plus the per game roster bonuses. Base salary is divided by the 17 weeks of the season, so he keeps the 2/17 ($264,706) of his base salary, plus the $62,500 per game bonuses. Also he keeps the $250,000 original roster bonus and the $250,000 workout bonus, whatever that all adds up to. We'll get to his signing bonus below.

 

Once he becomes officially retired the Bills will get cap relief in the amounts of $687,500 for the no longer LTBE weekly roster bonuses (according to Spotrac they already have, whatev).  They will also be refunded $1,985,294 (15/17 of the $2,250,000 base salary) for a total of  $2,672,794 towards the cap.

 

Additionally, they have the right via the CBA to request repayment of 15/17 of the $1,500,000 signing bonus. If VD repays it they get credit immediately. If not the Bills will have to go through a system arbitrator who would most likely award them an additional $1,323,529. So all told, the Bills could eventually recieve $3,996,323 in salary cap refunds. Plus, I suppose, they could also go through the system arbitrator for 1/2 of a game's refunds. No telling how that would go. It's never been done before.

I appreciate this and the fact you called him VD

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 hours ago, Tuco said:

Here's where it's at. Until VD is technically retired he still counts against the cap. And everything from game 2 counts even though he quit halfway through - at least for now. If the Bills want to go after 1/2 a games money they will have to go through an arbitrator. Until then, VD's 2 games count.

 

Before the season VD had a cap charge of an even $5,000,000. This is broken down in the following manner-

 

Base salary - $2,250,000 

Signing bonus - $1,500,000

Workout bonus -$250,000

Roster bonus - $250,000

 

These amounts total $4,250,000

 

In addition, VD had a weekly roster bonus (it's not that uncommon by the way) of either-

$46,875 if on the 46 man roster (X 16 games = $750,000), or-

$15,625 if only on the 53 man roster (X 16 games = $250,000).

 

It's one or the other above each week, not both.

 

Before the season the NFL looked at the contract and decided the $46,875 per week was a "Likely To Be Earned" (LTBE) incentive, so they charged that amount ($750,000) against the cap at the start of the year (LTBE incentives that aren't earned get refunded as the season goes on).

 

The $750,000 added to the $4,250,000 is where the total cap charge of $5,000,000 VD had before the season comes from. Now if you look at the Spotrac page, it now shows a cap charge of $4,312,500. The roster bonus that used to show $250,000 now shows $312,500. That's because the roster bonus for week 1 ($15,625) and week 2 ($46,875) have been paid and added to the $250,000 roster bonus figure. That brings the original $4,250,000 up to $4,312,500. Or, more specifically, since the announced retirement, the league (or at least Spotrac) have decided the remaining weekly roster bonuses are no longer LTBE so no longer charged, bringing his current charge down to $4,312,500.

 

Where we are at this point. VD hasn't been officially retired by the league. Technically he could walk back in and say he changed his mind and still wants to play. If so the Bills would have to decide to release him (letting him keep almost all his guaranteed salary and SB), or accept him back, possibly with suspensions and fines for conduct detrimental, etc. Maybe even so far as seeking to have the contract voided by an arbitrator. Either way, If VD changes his mind it would be very ugly. So let's say he stays retired. 

 

If VD is deemed officially retired he will get to keep his first 2 game checks plus the per game roster bonuses. Base salary is divided by the 17 weeks of the season, so he keeps the 2/17 ($264,706) of his base salary, plus the $62,500 per game bonuses. Also he keeps the $250,000 original roster bonus and the $250,000 workout bonus, whatever that all adds up to. We'll get to his signing bonus below.

 

Once he becomes officially retired the Bills will get cap relief in the amounts of $687,500 for the no longer LTBE weekly roster bonuses (according to Spotrac they already have, whatev).  They will also be refunded $1,985,294 (15/17 of the $2,250,000 base salary) for a total of  $2,672,794 towards the cap.

 

Additionally, they have the right via the CBA to request repayment of 15/17 of the $1,500,000 signing bonus. If VD repays it they get credit immediately. If not the Bills will have to go through a system arbitrator who would most likely award them an additional $1,323,529. So all told, the Bills could eventually recieve $3,996,323 in salary cap refunds. Plus, I suppose, they could also go through the system arbitrator for 1/2 of a game's refunds. No telling how that would go. It's never been done before.

 

 

...nicely done....OBD needs to pursue this to the Nth degree...sounds like he does have some leverage by not filing retirement papers......maybe I'm wrong......but pursuing the other remedies via an arbitrator may eventually force the issue......."but I did it for my teammates"......

[Doc]

23 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...nicely done....OBD needs to pursue this to the Nth degree...sounds like he does have some leverage by not filing retirement papers......maybe I'm wrong......but pursuing the other remedies via an arbitrator may eventually force the issue......."but I did it for my teammates"......

 

Oh, they'll pursue it and get every cent back they're owed.  The NFL isn't about to start letting players sign deals and then retire on them and still expect to collect more than they've earned.

[FearLess Price]

16 hours ago, Doc said:

 

EJ already missed the first Browns game.

 

Yeah I know that. I still stand behind it. 8 games of EJ Gaines > Vontae Davis Version 2018

[Punching Bag]

11 hours ago, Tuco said:

Here's where it's at. Until VD is technically retired he still counts against the cap. And everything from game 2 counts even though he quit halfway through - at least for now. If the Bills want to go after 1/2 a games money they will have to go through an arbitrator. Until then, VD's 2 games count.

 

Before the season VD had a cap charge of an even $5,000,000. This is broken down in the following manner-

 

Base salary - $2,250,000 

Signing bonus - $1,500,000

Workout bonus -$250,000

Roster bonus - $250,000

 

These amounts total $4,250,000

 

In addition, VD had a weekly roster bonus (it's not that uncommon by the way) of either-

$46,875 if on the 46 man roster (X 16 games = $750,000), or-

$15,625 if only on the 53 man roster (X 16 games = $250,000).

 

It's one or the other above each week, not both.

 

Before the season the NFL looked at the contract and decided the $46,875 per week was a "Likely To Be Earned" (LTBE) incentive, so they charged that amount ($750,000) against the cap at the start of the year (LTBE incentives that aren't earned get refunded as the season goes on).

 

The $750,000 added to the $4,250,000 is where the total cap charge of $5,000,000 VD had before the season comes from. Now if you look at the Spotrac page, it now shows a cap charge of $4,312,500. The roster bonus that used to show $250,000 now shows $312,500. That's because the roster bonus for week 1 ($15,625) and week 2 ($46,875) have been paid and added to the $250,000 roster bonus figure. That brings the original $4,250,000 up to $4,312,500. Or, more specifically, since the announced retirement, the league (or at least Spotrac) have decided the remaining weekly roster bonuses are no longer LTBE so no longer charged, bringing his current charge down to $4,312,500.

 

Where we are at this point. VD hasn't been officially retired by the league. Technically he could walk back in and say he changed his mind and still wants to play. If so the Bills would have to decide to release him (letting him keep almost all his guaranteed salary and SB), or accept him back, possibly with suspensions and fines for conduct detrimental, etc. Maybe even so far as seeking to have the contract voided by an arbitrator. Either way, If VD changes his mind it would be very ugly. So let's say he stays retired. 

 

If VD is deemed officially retired he will get to keep his first 2 game checks plus the per game roster bonuses. Base salary is divided by the 17 weeks of the season, so he keeps the 2/17 ($264,706) of his base salary, plus the $62,500 per game bonuses. Also he keeps the $250,000 original roster bonus and the $250,000 workout bonus, whatever that all adds up to. We'll get to his signing bonus below.

 

Once he becomes officially retired the Bills will get cap relief in the amounts of $687,500 for the no longer LTBE weekly roster bonuses (according to Spotrac they already have, whatev).  They will also be refunded $1,985,294 (15/17 of the $2,250,000 base salary) for a total of  $2,672,794 towards the cap.

 

Additionally, they have the right via the CBA to request repayment of 15/17 of the $1,500,000 signing bonus. If VD repays it they get credit immediately. If not the Bills will have to go through a system arbitrator who would most likely award them an additional $1,323,529. So all told, the Bills could eventually recieve $3,996,323 in salary cap refunds. Plus, I suppose, they could also go through the system arbitrator for 1/2 of a game's refunds. No telling how that would go. It's never been done before.

 

 

All of this depends on contract wording.  Jim Overdorf has approved a lot of weird clauses in past including Marone's buyout clause and Darius's contract which allowed him not to repay portions signing bonus for suspensions, etc.

[Tuco]

5 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

 

All of this depends on contract wording.  Jim Overdorf has approved a lot of weird clauses in past including Marone's buyout clause and Darius's contract which allowed him not to repay portions signing bonus for suspensions, etc.

 

 

Certain things can be worded, but the CBA can't be overwritten.  Marrone's contract isn't bound by the CBA so they can write anything they want in there. But you're somewhat mistaken about Dareus. 

 

The CBA clearly states that if a forfeitable breach occurs due to a player's retirement, the team has the option of seeking repayment of the applicable amount of his prorated signing bonus in addition to base salary refunds. This makes sense because, in a case like VD's, the Bills have every right to expect repayment. You don't give a guy $1.5 million on top of a nice salary just so he can quit on you halfway through the second game. But it's not a mandatory repayment because, say a long time player was in the 4th year of a 5 year contract when the team says hey we no longer need you so we're gonna let you go. Or, if you'd like to retire and fade away gracefully we're not going to demand repayment of the final year's worth of your prorated bonus. That's why the CBA gives teams the choice. I suppose, since repayment due to retirement is a team option,  it's possible the Bills contract with VD says he doesn't have to repay his bonus if he retires after 1 1/2 games. But I wouldn't bet on it.

 

Overdorf's contract with Dareus did make waves, but it wasn't for language he included, but rather, for language he didn't include. In this case, many large contracts include language that will void the guarantees on future year's salaries if the player gets suspended at any point. Overdorf didn't include that in MD's contract, and that raised a rukus among fans for a bit. But as for Dareus repaying a portion of his signing bonus, since the suspension was due to substance abuse, the Bills were required by the CBA to request repayment of the applicable portion of prorated bonus along with any other salary (and cap) reimbursements. This is specifically spelled out in the CBA and can't be written out.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/8/16/12505890/bills-dt-marcell-dareus-facing-4-game-suspension

 

. . . . With a base salary of $7.9 million for 2016, Dareus will lose more than $1.85 million for the four weeks he’s on suspension.

 

. . . . With $5 million of his $25 million signing bonus counting against the 2016 cap, he’ll also be required to pay back 4/17th of that amount. That’s another $1.17 million.

 

. . . . Likewise, with a $7 million option bonus earned this year, Dareus will be required to pay back $274,510, per a source with knowledge of the specific calculation.

 

. . . . The Bills are required to seek repayment, even if they don’t want to.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Tuco

[Doc]

7 hours ago, FearLess Price said:

Yeah I know that. I still stand behind it. 8 games of EJ Gaines > Vontae Davis Version 2018

 

Hindsight...

 

[8-8 Forever?]

On 9/19/2018 at 2:32 PM, Skins Malone said:

I'm over the whole Davis thing.  He left..hes gone...and he wasnt playing well anyway.  

yep, they both tried it and it did not work.  move on.   this is the NFL.  

[SoCal Deek]

Tuco, is there any chance we can get you a job at OBD? You clearly have an excellent grasp on all of this. Very impressive breakdown. You’re hired!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, Tuco said:

Here's where it's at. Until VD is technically retired he still counts against the cap. And everything from game 2 counts even though he quit halfway through - at least for now. If the Bills want to go after 1/2 a games money they will have to go through an arbitrator. Until then, VD's 2 games count.

 

Before the season VD had a cap charge of an even $5,000,000. This is broken down in the following manner-

 

Base salary - $2,250,000 

Signing bonus - $1,500,000

Workout bonus -$250,000

Roster bonus - $250,000

 

These amounts total $4,250,000

 

In addition, VD had a weekly roster bonus (it's not that uncommon by the way) of either-

$46,875 if on the 46 man roster (X 16 games = $750,000), or-

$15,625 if only on the 53 man roster (X 16 games = $250,000).

 

It's one or the other above each week, not both.

 

Before the season the NFL looked at the contract and decided the $46,875 per week was a "Likely To Be Earned" (LTBE) incentive, so they charged that amount ($750,000) against the cap at the start of the year (LTBE incentives that aren't earned get refunded as the season goes on).

 

The $750,000 added to the $4,250,000 is where the total cap charge of $5,000,000 VD had before the season comes from. Now if you look at the Spotrac page, it now shows a cap charge of $4,312,500. The roster bonus that used to show $250,000 now shows $312,500. That's because the roster bonus for week 1 ($15,625) and week 2 ($46,875) have been paid and added to the $250,000 roster bonus figure. That brings the original $4,250,000 up to $4,312,500. Or, more specifically, since the announced retirement, the league (or at least Spotrac) have decided the remaining weekly roster bonuses are no longer LTBE so no longer charged, bringing his current charge down to $4,312,500.

 

Where we are at this point. VD hasn't been officially retired by the league. Technically he could walk back in and say he changed his mind and still wants to play. If so the Bills would have to decide to release him (letting him keep almost all his guaranteed salary and SB), or accept him back, possibly with suspensions and fines for conduct detrimental, etc. Maybe even so far as seeking to have the contract voided by an arbitrator. Either way, If VD changes his mind it would be very ugly. So let's say he stays retired. 

 

If VD is deemed officially retired he will get to keep his first 2 game checks plus the per game roster bonuses. Base salary is divided by the 17 weeks of the season, so he keeps the 2/17 ($264,706) of his base salary, plus the $62,500 per game bonuses. Also he keeps the $250,000 original roster bonus and the $250,000 workout bonus, whatever that all adds up to. We'll get to his signing bonus below.

 

Once he becomes officially retired the Bills will get cap relief in the amounts of $687,500 for the no longer LTBE weekly roster bonuses (according to Spotrac they already have, whatev).  They will also be refunded $1,985,294 (15/17 of the $2,250,000 base salary) for a total of  $2,672,794 towards the cap.

 

Additionally, they have the right via the CBA to request repayment of 15/17 of the $1,500,000 signing bonus. If VD repays it they get credit immediately. If not the Bills will have to go through a system arbitrator who would most likely award them an additional $1,323,529. So all told, the Bills could eventually recieve $3,996,323 in salary cap refunds. Plus, I suppose, they could also go through the system arbitrator for 1/2 of a game's refunds. No telling how that would go. It's never been done before.

 

Great stuff.  I didn't cop to the $250,000 being in addition to the per-game roster bonus.

 

This is meticulous and makes perfect sense, Thanks

 

8 hours ago, Limeaid said:

All of this depends on contract wording.  Jim Overdorf has approved a lot of weird clauses in past including Marone's buyout clause and Darius's contract which allowed him not to repay portions signing bonus for suspensions, etc.

 

Dareus did repay signing bonus due to suspensions.  That was covered in a Whaley interview at the time.

 

It was the continuation of future guarantees after he was suspended that was hinky - usually a team says "if you're a bad boy, all guarantees are off!"

 

Whaley leaned too much on Overdorf and didn't ask him enough "what if?" questions.

[Cripple Creek]

19 hours ago, Tuco said:

Here's where it's at. Until VD is technically retired he still counts against the cap. And everything from game 2 counts even though he quit halfway through - at least for now. If the Bills want to go after 1/2 a games money they will have to go through an arbitrator. Until then, VD's 2 games count.

 

Before the season VD had a cap charge of an even $5,000,000. This is broken down in the following manner-

 

Base salary - $2,250,000 

Signing bonus - $1,500,000

Workout bonus -$250,000

Roster bonus - $250,000

 

These amounts total $4,250,000

 

In addition, VD had a weekly roster bonus (it's not that uncommon by the way) of either-

$46,875 if on the 46 man roster (X 16 games = $750,000), or-

$15,625 if only on the 53 man roster (X 16 games = $250,000).

 

It's one or the other above each week, not both.

 

Before the season the NFL looked at the contract and decided the $46,875 per week was a "Likely To Be Earned" (LTBE) incentive, so they charged that amount ($750,000) against the cap at the start of the year (LTBE incentives that aren't earned get refunded as the season goes on).

 

The $750,000 added to the $4,250,000 is where the total cap charge of $5,000,000 VD had before the season comes from. Now if you look at the Spotrac page, it now shows a cap charge of $4,312,500. The roster bonus that used to show $250,000 now shows $312,500. That's because the roster bonus for week 1 ($15,625) and week 2 ($46,875) have been paid and added to the $250,000 roster bonus figure. That brings the original $4,250,000 up to $4,312,500. Or, more specifically, since the announced retirement, the league (or at least Spotrac) have decided the remaining weekly roster bonuses are no longer LTBE so no longer charged, bringing his current charge down to $4,312,500.

 

Where we are at this point. VD hasn't been officially retired by the league. Technically he could walk back in and say he changed his mind and still wants to play. If so the Bills would have to decide to release him (letting him keep almost all his guaranteed salary and SB), or accept him back, possibly with suspensions and fines for conduct detrimental, etc. Maybe even so far as seeking to have the contract voided by an arbitrator. Either way, If VD changes his mind it would be very ugly. So let's say he stays retired. 

 

If VD is deemed officially retired he will get to keep his first 2 game checks plus the per game roster bonuses. Base salary is divided by the 17 weeks of the season, so he keeps the 2/17 ($264,706) of his base salary, plus the $62,500 per game bonuses. Also he keeps the $250,000 original roster bonus and the $250,000 workout bonus, whatever that all adds up to. We'll get to his signing bonus below.

 

Once he becomes officially retired the Bills will get cap relief in the amounts of $687,500 for the no longer LTBE weekly roster bonuses (according to Spotrac they already have, whatev).  They will also be refunded $1,985,294 (15/17 of the $2,250,000 base salary) for a total of  $2,672,794 towards the cap.

 

Additionally, they have the right via the CBA to request repayment of 15/17 of the $1,500,000 signing bonus. If VD repays it they get credit immediately. If not the Bills will have to go through a system arbitrator who would most likely award them an additional $1,323,529. So all told, the Bills could eventually recieve $3,996,323 in salary cap refunds. Plus, I suppose, they could also go through the system arbitrator for 1/2 of a game's refunds. No telling how that would go. It's never been done before.

This is a well reasoned and articulate response.  You must be lost.

[Tuco]

6 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

This is a well reasoned and articulate response.  You must be lost.

Was bored at work. My boss would be so proud.

[FearLess Price]

18 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Hindsight...

 

Not really. Its well documented a lot of us were annoyed that we didnt try to resign EJG in FA that year. He ended up on the Browns

[GreggTX]

There is not a single FA still out there at this late date that is worth a quarter of that amount. Maybe they can roll it over???

[Bockeye]

On 9/20/2018 at 4:22 PM, Dablitzkrieg said:

I appreciate this and the fact you called him VD

Dab - this is an excellent point. I could see some T-shirts at the next home game such as:

”We’re glad our VD is gone”

”Who wants VD anyways”

 

[Ned Kelly]

Just send a Shady debt collector to his house to get the  ? back.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Ned Kelly
Spelt

[NoSaint]

On 9/21/2018 at 12:38 AM, Limeaid said:

 

 

All of this depends on contract wording.  Jim Overdorf has approved a lot of weird clauses in past including Marone's buyout clause and Darius's contract which allowed him not to repay portions signing bonus for suspensions, etc.

 

He would have had to go incredibly far out of his way with giving leverage to a fringe player to not allow us to collect.