Would you trade Leighton Vander Esch, DJ Moore, Rashaad Penny, and Mason Rudolph for Josh Rosen?

[Dr. Who]

12 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

I've seen this and I agree that intangibles are even more important than the physical talent.  I think Rudolph has good talent and if he is as smart and hard working as has been suggested, then I think he is being seriously under-estimated.

 

Before flaming away, please recognize that I am not necessarily lobbying to take Rudolph over Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield.  Rather, I don't think it is a bad plan to keep their picks and take Rudolph, Jackson or Allen and then still have 22, 53, 56, 65 and 96 to get other good players (plus all of next yer's picks as well.

Ideally, you can have both talent and intangibles.  I think if you lack arm talent and have the intangibles, you can be an average starter.  Unfortunately, if you have superior talent and lack the qualities that cannot be quantified, you may be a bust.  You have to judge beyond the measurable.  On balance, however, I personally would opt for the fella with the talent.  If you want a franchise qb, there's a threshold of natural talent, below which you just aren't going to have a top 5 qb. 

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Dr. Who

[Reed83HOF]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Detective said:

Question: If the Bills draft Rudolph at 12, will our wide receivers be running around as wide open as his receivers were at OK State?

Or as our WRs were running wide open with TT?

[Buffalo Bills Detective]

4 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Or as our WRs were running wide open with TT?

Watch this video and you'll notice that, in many instances, his receivers were running around wide open because they were going up against terrible defensive backs. Rudolph won't have this luxury in the NFL.  He'll need to learn to feel pressure coming from legitimate defensive ends and linebackers and be able to throw through very tight windows.

 

 

[NewEraBills]

12 hours ago, Your Brown Eye said:

Would you trade Cornelius  Bennett, Darryl Talley, Frank Reich and Kenneth Davis for Jim Kelly?

 

 

 

Lock thread. Case closed.

Why would I want to do that when we had all of them and unfortunately still didn't walk away with one SB win?  Look, folks, it takes EVERYTHING and luck to win it all.  All of this either-or thinking is foolishness.  You have a crowd that thinks the QB is JESUS and can work miracles regardless of what's around him and another crowd that thinks having a battle tank (defense) but no working gun is going to get things done.  It takes everything and getting lucky to win.  This is not an either/or matter.

Edited March 24, 2018 by NewEraBills

[thunderingsquid]

9 hours ago, USABuffaloFan said:

Is Brees a franchise QB, Brady, Wilson? These guys were all picked 2-6 round. Favre was a 2 round pick, Rodgers 17th, Kelly 14th. Brad Johnson, Dilfer, Foles, Flacco all won SB's. Bledsoe, Luck, Ryan and a number other 1st pick over all have not, Allot more #2 picks have flopped. A franchise QB is defined by winning over a long period of time, nothing about draft status. More QB's have failed in the 1st round then any other position selected. Failure is out of the league before rookie contract done or expired. Allot more have failed then succeed.

This guy has had concussions, 1 hit and he may never play again in a year, another hit out of the league.

Yep.  More cold feet.

[Mojo44]

34 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Detective said:

Question: If the Bills draft Rudolph at 12, will our wide receivers be running around as wide open as his receivers were at OK State?

No different then Mayfield at Oklahoma. 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

Buffalo Sports Page‏ @buffsportspage 3m3 minutes ago

.@greggabe: I think Mason Rudolph's intangibles are head & shoulders above the other top QBs. He's smart & a good kid. His physical traits are comparable, but the intangibles are what can make a QB great.

 

FYI - intangibles are the number 1 trait Beane looks for in a QB...

 

Also listening to Gabriel on the Buffalo Sports page - he could have started this thread and appears to be in favor of staying put and filling LB, WR and drafting Rudolph.

 

Just putting some info out there...

 

I wonder what "intangibles" Gabriel saw in Manziel that had him singing his praises with such veracity. 

[Reed83HOF]

5 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I wonder what "intangibles" Gabriel saw in Manziel that had him singing his praises with such veracity. 

I hate the word "intangibles". You can either go through progressions or not, you can read a defense or not, you have leadership qualities or not, etc.

31 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Detective said:

Watch this video and you'll notice that, in many instances, his receivers were running around wide open because they were going up against terrible defensive backs. Rudolph won't have this luxury in the NFL.  He'll need to learn to feel pressure coming from legitimate defensive ends and linebackers and be able to throw through very tight windows.

 

 

Not interested in this guy...

[SteveFreeman22]

13 hours ago, Bills of Boston said:

I appreciate the OP don’t get me wrong but putting names to it does NOTHING to change my mind. Look I don’t “know” which qbs will pan out I get that. But theoretically drafting Rudolph just to check the box of drafting a qb is so wildly irrelevant in my opinion. Swing for the fences, now

But you said you don't "know" which qbs will pan out so wouldn't be wiser a qb,lb,wr,rb instead of just a qb  ?

[BigDingus]

I'd trade all of those names in a heartbeat for any of the top 3 QB's.

We've tried the "build a team around a game manager" for 18 years, and it results in failure every time.

Not about to start that crap all over again.

[Reed83HOF]

1 minute ago, BigDingus said:

I'd trade all of those names in a heartbeat for any of the top 3 QB's.

We've tried the "build a team around a game manager" for 18 years, and it results in failure every time.

Not about to start that crap all over again.

Chiefs just moved on from a game manager...

[BigDingus]

Just now, Reed83HOF said:

Chiefs just moved on from a game manager...

 

Yup, smart move on their part.

[FeelingOnYouboty]

I like that the OP think we still won’t have an extra pick in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th?

[MAJBobby]

14 hours ago, The Bills Blog said:

I wouldn't, and I hope Brandon Beane agrees.

 

And this is even a bare minimum of what it would cost to get to #2. Using the chart, #12 (Vander Esch), #22 (Moore), #53 (Rudolph), and #65 (Penny) get you to #2, but because of the Jets trade, you'll probably have to give up significantly more than that. Is Rosen (or your other preferred QB other than Darnold) better than Rudolph to the extent that you're willing to just not have Vander Esch, Moore, Penny, and some other high-impact player?

 

I am firmly in the camp of keeping our picks at this point. The Bills are in position to build a dominant roster. Let McCarron, Rudolph, and Peterman compete.

 

FYI: the available players came from the Fanspeak draft simulator using Matt Miller's board and the difficult algorithm.
 

 

In a freaking heatbeat. 

14 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Would you trade high impact players like Shaq Lawson, Reggie Ragnuts,  Adolphus Washington and Zay Jones for Josh Rosen?

 

 

 

Snap

[Teddy KGB]

2 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

Buffalo Sports Page‏ @buffsportspage 3m3 minutes ago

.@greggabe: I think Mason Rudolph's intangibles are head & shoulders above the other top QBs. He's smart & a good kid. His physical traits are comparable, but the intangibles are what can make a QB great.

 

FYI - intangibles are the number 1 trait Beane looks for in a QB...

 

Also listening to Gabriel on the Buffalo Sports page - he could have started this thread and appears to be in favor of staying put and filling LB, WR and drafting Rudolph.

 

Just putting some info out there...

 

It’s why he ain’t lasting til 53.   

[MAJBobby]

13 hours ago, greeneblitz said:

I would literally take any QB but Rosen, he's a punk and doesn't deserve to be the face of our franchise, he's the least Buffalo guy in the entire draft, I hope we stay far away.

 

I see your mistaking Rosen for Mayfield again

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

14 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I repeat. When McCarron had AJ Green, Marvin Jones, Mohamed Sanu, and Tyler Eifert in CIN he put up pedestrian numbers.  He's a bridge to the franchise QB.  2018 draft baby!

The Bengals rushed the football a lot, I think they might have had the most rushing attempts in 2015. Whenever a starting QB goes down that team plays more conservative. He did exactly what he was supposed to do as a backup which is keep you W/L at .500 and keep you teams in the games. He brought his team back in that playoff game vs the Steelers which he should've won. 

 

I'm not sure what your expectations were for McCarron in 2015 but I think he did everything that he was asked to do and more. Dalton took most if not all 1st team reps, I think it is very impressive for McCarron to come off the bench and play the way he did. 

 

 

 

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

The Bengals rushed the football a lot, I think they might have had the most rushing attempts in 2015. Whenever a starting QB goes down that team plays more conservative. He did exactly what he was supposed to do as a backup which is keep you W/L at .500 and keep you teams in the games. He brought his team back in that playoff game vs the Steelers which he should've won. 

 

I'm not sure what your expectations were for McCarron in 2015 but I think he did everything that he was asked to do and more. Dalton took most if not all 1st team reps, I think it is very impressive for McCarron to come off the bench and play the way he did.

 

Think again and stop the excuses.  Dalton was out with injury and McCarron started 4 consecutive regular season games in addition to 1 playoff game. 

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Think again and stop the excuses.  Dalton was out with injury and McCarron started 4 consecutive regular season games in addition to 1 playoff game. 

 

And promptly lost to Dalton again in the next camp

[BarleyNY]

14 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

In a FN heartbeat.

Yup

[TheBrownBear]

No, and I'm a UCLA fan and like Rosen.  He COULD become a hall of fame franchise QB type, but he's no sure thing. I'm okay with moving up to #6 and giving away less to grab a QB we want, but we have too many holes to sell the farm for Rosen. 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBear said:

No, and I'm a UCLA fan and like Rosen.  He COULD become a hall of fame franchise QB type, but he's no sure thing. I'm okay with moving up to #6 and giving away less to grab a QB we want, but we have too many holes to sell the farm for Rosen. 

 

Enough of the too many holes spiel. The rebuild of the team goes beyond the 2018 offseason with $100M in cap room next year. Get the QB you covet. 

[The Bills Blog]

1 hour ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

I like that the OP think we still won’t have an extra pick in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th?

Come again? Where did I say we wouldn't still have a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th?

[ILBillsfan]

I would easily you need a starting qb not a just get by qb

 

Where have you been for the last 17 years????????????

[Rob's House]

I would and I hate Rosen. 

[USABuffaloFan]

10 hours ago, Luka said:

The whole premise of this thread is idiotic. No way to know if those players would be available at those picks. None of them have any more or less chance of being successful than Rosen. The draft is a crap shoot. With all the draft capital we have, this is the year to roll the dice.

The question you ask is how many needs do I have, am I better off with 5-6 players and see if 2-3 stick or taking a chance 1 player is a Franchise guy for 10-15 years. Right now, Bills still have too many needs and no money left.

[Chuck Wagon]

If Rudolph is so awesome, maybe the Giants or Jets will just draft him.

 

 

13 minutes ago, USABuffaloFan said:

The question you ask is how many needs do I have, am I better off with 5-6 players and see if 2-3 stick or taking a chance 1 player is a Franchise guy for 10-15 years. Right now, Bills still have too many needs and no money left.

 

 

And if we are relying on 6 rookies to "fill holes" we are going to suck anyway, may as well have the QB.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Chuck Wagon

[USABuffaloFan]

5 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Enough of the too many holes spiel. The rebuild of the team goes beyond the 2018 offseason with $100M in cap room next year. Get the QB you covet. 

Cap room with signings now is about $65 mil and we haven't signed picks yet. Next year Kyle will be gone, $15+ has to go for a DT, OG will be open so that will be 8-10Mil to fill. Raises and/or bonuses and that money gets eaten fast. But this is not a rebuild team this year or McCoy and/or Clay would be gone. McDermont wants to win and tooled up his defense. all he needs is a MLB and he is off to the races.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, USABuffaloFan said:

Cap room with signings now is about $65 mil and we haven't signed picks yet. Next year Kyle will be gone, $15+ has to go for a DT, OG will be open so that will be 8-10Mil to fill. Raises and/or bonuses and that money gets eaten fast. But this is not a rebuild team this year or McCoy and/or Clay would be gone. McDermont wants to win and tooled up his defense. all he needs is a MLB and he is off to the races.

 

Yeah sure. MLB is the key to being a contender on a year to year basis.  Keep telling yourself that. 

[USABuffaloFan]

5 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

If Rudolph is so awesome, maybe the Giants or Jets will just draft him.

 

 

 

 

And if we are relying on 6 rookies to "fill holes" we are going to suck anyway, may as well have the QB.

Some of those needs are backups, but we do need a starting MLB and Speed WR. Where are you seeing 6 starters needed on this team? 

[Chuck Wagon]

10 minutes ago, USABuffaloFan said:

Some of those needs are backups, but we do need a starting MLB and Speed WR. Where are you seeing 6 starters needed on this team? 

 

So you think a franchise QB isn't worth giving up some backups, a fast WR and a MLB?

[USABuffaloFan]

4 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Yeah sure. MLB is the key to being a contender on a year to year basis.  Keep telling yourself that. 

In McDermotts system it is, why they let Brown walk (led league in Tackles), we couldn't stop the run. Have you heard of Luke  Kuechly?

Edited March 24, 2018 by USABuffaloFan

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, USABuffaloFan said:

In McDermotts system it is, why they let Brown walk (led league in Tackles), we couldn't stop the run. Have you heard of Luke  Kuechly?

 

You ever heard of Cam Newton?

[Luka]

16 minutes ago, USABuffaloFan said:

The question you ask is how many needs do I have, am I better off with 5-6 players and see if 2-3 stick or taking a chance 1 player is a Franchise guy for 10-15 years. Right now, Bills still have too many needs and no money left.

 

Biggest need being a QB. With a real QB we don't back into the playoffs because we would have beat the Panthers. And we could have easily beat the Jags in the first round with a couple extra completions. The rest of the roster was patchwork and we were right there. Last year we were supposed to tank so I'm not buying the 5-6 holes crap.

[USABuffaloFan]

3 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

So you think a franchise QB isn't worth giving up some backups, a fast WR and a MLB?

Will you risk your reputation on this board that whoever we draft will be that guy for 10-15 years? You sure are acting like you know this happens drafting a QB in top 5 for sure. I can give you the stats all again but you won't listen anyway. We won't get 1st pick and Darnold who stands the best chance. Only 2 drafts were 3 or more 1st pick QB's became franchise guys. The odds are very good 2-5 picked QB's fail unless this is a generational draft. We barely have a consensus QB for 1st. Rosen has question marks, concussions and winning record. Allen is far from polished and Baker has size and character issues. Where are you seeing a sure fit for Bills in the top 10 worth the risk?

4 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

I would easily you need a starting qb not a just get by qb

 

Where have you been for the last 17 years????????????

The Bills problems are because they passed up QB's and picked 2 bad ones in the 1st round. They didn't take it serious enough. No One is saying don't grab one with one of our 1st picks. Even moving to 6-9 might make sense, cost will be more reasonable. If you wanted a top 10 QB we needed to flop last year and not end our drought. The choice was McDermotts, he is choosing to win. Buffalo won't get #2 pick, doubt unless they over pay they get 4 or 5. they leaves 6 which Indy is on record to willing to move down but they want allot of picks to help Luck along. Sorry, everyone wants something!

[Chuck Wagon]

10 minutes ago, USABuffaloFan said:

Will you risk your reputation on this board that whoever we draft will be that guy for 10-15 years? You sure are acting like you know this happens drafting a QB in top 5 for sure. I can give you the stats all again but you won't listen anyway. We won't get 1st pick and Darnold who stands the best chance. Only 2 drafts were 3 or more 1st pick QB's became franchise guys. The odds are very good 2-5 picked QB's fail unless this is a generational draft. We barely have a consensus QB for 1st. Rosen has question marks, concussions and winning record. Allen is far from polished and Baker has size and character issues. Where are you seeing a sure fit for Bills in the top 10 worth the risk?

 

 

Reputation on the board?  Who cares?  If someone has something interesting to say, what does it matter if they have 10,000 posts or 4?

 

I like Rosen.  I don't think we've had anywhere near the caliber of him since Kelly.  Could one hit knock him out?  Sure, but ask Ryan Shazier what one hit can do.  If you want to break down stats, tell me the breakdown of pro bowlers / starters / busts between picks 12 - 65.  Tell me the hit rate for QBs drafted then.  Staying put means it's more likely than not whoever we pick at QB (even Mason Rudolph) is going to bust and be a worthless pick, out of the other 4 picks in that range, we'd be lucky to end up with 1 pro bowler, 2 good starters, 1 bust.  Lets not pretend like we are giving up hall of famers in a trade up.  I've seen this team be very talented without a QB, we all know what happens, the talent on this roster now comes nowhere close to where it was 2-3 years ago, even then the team went nowhere with no QB.  Personally I'm sick of trying to accept mediocrity, it doesn't matter if we draft 4 pro bowlers with the picks we keep, no QB means it's worthless.

[USABuffaloFan]

12 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

You ever heard of Cam Newton?

CAM Newton was the 1st pick in the draft, last I checked we don't own that pick. Jackson is the closest to CAM and can be had at 22. Thanks for making my point.

9 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

Biggest need being a QB. With a real QB we don't back into the playoffs because we would have beat the Panthers. And we could have easily beat the Jags in the first round with a couple extra completions. The rest of the roster was patchwork and we were right there. Last year we were supposed to tank so I'm not buying the 5-6 holes crap.

Any QB we get in the draft sits behind McCarron next year. The only one who could start, Darnold, will be sitting behind Taylor. So exactly how is drafting a QB going to help you win next year?

[26CornerBlitz]

8 minutes ago, USABuffaloFan said:

CAM Newton was the 1st pick in the draft, last I checked we don't own that pick. Jackson is the closest to CAM and can be had at 22. Thanks for making my point.

Any QB we get in the draft sits behind McCarron next year. The only one who could start, Darnold, will be sitting behind Taylor. So exactly how is drafting a QB going to help you win next year?

 

Incorrect. Rosen would start over McCarron and likely Mayfield as well.

Edited March 24, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[Luka]

6 minutes ago, USABuffaloFan said:

CAM Newton was the 1st pick in the draft, last I checked we don't own that pick. Jackson is the closest to CAM and can be had at 22. Thanks for making my point.

Any QB we get in the draft sits behind McCarron next year. The only one who could start, Darnold, will be sitting behind Taylor. So exactly how is drafting a QB going to help you win next year?

 

You are simply pretending you can see the future. You can't. You don't know that a rookie doesn't beat out McCarron. McCarron could be terrible. All 6 picks you draft instead of trading up for a top QB could be out of the league in 3 years. I doubt McCarron beats out Mayfield, Darnold or Rosen. But finding a QB is top priority and you aren't doing that at 12.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Luka

[USABuffaloFan]

5 minutes ago, Chuck Wagon said:

 

 

Reputation on the board?  Who cares?  If someone has something interesting to say, what does it matter if they have 10,000 posts or 4?

 

I like Rosen.  I don't think we've had anywhere near the caliber of him since Kelly.  Could one hit knock him out?  Sure, but ask Ryan Shazier what one hit can do.  If you want to break down stats, tell me the breakdown of pro bowlers / starters / busts between picks 12 - 65.  Tell me the hit rate for QBs drafted then.  Staying put means it's more likely than not whoever we pick at QB (even Mason Rudolph) is going to bust and be a worthless pick, out of the other 4 picks in that range, we'd be lucky to end up with 1 pro bowler, 2 good starters, 1 bust.  Lets not pretend like we are giving up hall of famers in a trade up.  I've seen this team be very talented without a QB, we all know what happens, the talent on this roster now comes nowhere close to where it was 2-3 years ago, even then the team went nowhere with no QB.  Personally I'm sick of trying to accept mediocrity, it doesn't matter if we draft 4 pro bowlers with the picks we keep, no QB means it's worthless.

Guess this is were we differ on whether Bills have a QB. I think a 2 time Champion for Alabama could lead Bills better than Taylor could, he can throw and has proven that in 4 games and 4 training camps. Second, we have a decent backup. We have 9 picks and if you truly are worried about QB still we could draft 2-3 of them and still get LMB and WR. I would rather take a shot with Rudolph, Falk and Lautta and see who emerges. You can put one of them on Practice squad. My question is how are you getting Rosen, he won't make it past the Jets? Two, the cost will leave you know way to get a starting MLB, no one is available that is worth to start. Are you planning on starting Rosen if you get him? More questions on getting him than the path I select. If the Bills want Rudolph bad enough he will be there at 12 and Evans at 22 or Leighton Vander Esch. You won't have 12, 22 or next years 1st to get Rosen plus 2 more picks in top 100.

8 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Incorrect. Rosen would start over McCarron and likely Mayfield as well.

Your going off college production, McCarron was 36-4 with 2 Championships. In 2015 Dalton went down hurt and McCarron started 3 games and went 2-1 then went to the playoffs. He lost the game due to defense, almost won. Rosen had 2 concussions last year, what makes you think McDermott would risk throwing a rookie to the NFL he just paid all those picks to and chance losing him on a learning curve. Your not making any sense. I understand wanting a Franchise QB, the problem is too many fans are forcing it without even a path to getting it done. Bills have nothing to dictate here and everything to lose.