Gronk committed deliberate, intentional, and defenseless criminal assault with his metal elbow brace

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, folz said:

 

From what I can find in a quick Google search, each state has their own laws on what a deadly weapon is and will usually list such weapons (firearms, knives, brass knuckles, etc.).

However, people have been charged with assault with a deadly weapon from things like shopping carts and a frozen fish. Every state is different, but it appears (as has happened in a number of cases), if the alleged weapon is not on the state's list, it is up to the jury to decide if it was indeed wielded as a deadly weapon. So, in one case an elbow brace might be ruled out as a deadly weapon, but in another case, a jury may decide that it was indeed used as a lethal weapon and can convict as such.

 

Any lawyers on this board who can clarify?

 

I wonder if it was an Asian carp.

[corta765]

1 minute ago, Paulus said:

Lmao, what a load of crap. It was because it happened maliciously and outside the scope of the game. 

 

Right hitting a guy late after a play with an elbow, as opposed to grabbing a guy forcing his head and neck into the ground as hard as possible and then proceeding to punch him repeatedly which ended his career and broke his neck altering his life forever seems like a bit of a difference.

[HappyDays]

 

10 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

No, not wrong. We are talking about charging him with the crime of assault with a deadly weapon which wouldn’t happen because an elbow brace isn’t a deadly weapon according to the law.

 

This is still wrong. An elbow brace could definitely be classified as a deadly weapon. Literally anything could be under the right circumstances.

[corta765]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

How did you reach this conclusion?  We don't have to read peoples' minds; intent is inferred from their actions.  If I punch someone in the face, the law will correctly presume that I intended to injure him.

 

You don't think Gronkowski's hit could have done the same to White? 

 

Probably because if you had any reading comprehension he said as much after the game that he was pissed wanted to hit him but didn't intended to hurt him. In Moore's case by Bertuzzi it was known before the game that they wanted to get him back and take him out. That's premeditated.

 

And Gronks hit didn't do the same to White. If White had a broken neck and taken out on a stretcher yea I'd want criminal charges. That's not the case and context matters.

[mannc]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

No, it's not stupid at all. The correct analogy would be this: MMA fighter, after a round is clearly over, picks up a folding chair and strikes his opponent with it, WWE style. That is clearly outside the scope of the game/rules.  Criminal liability is a stretch, but of course that's fact dependent. If a full minute had passed and Gronk went after Tre with the metal elbow brace on the sidelines, it would be pretty clear cut. So it's in a gray area that would be very unlikely to result in prosecution, since the prosecutor would have to prove intent to inflict a late hit rather than confusion about when the play ended (and with a reasonable doubt standard). Civil liability is also a possibility. The only thing that stops that from happening is a Tre type victim is hesitant to sue an opponent since that would be frowned upon by everyone in the NFL world, including the league, ownership, teammates, and even the union. But there's no legal impediment to suing that I'm aware of. Again, it would be a question of proof. 

Unlikely though it is, we also can't discount the possibility that a Patriot (or other visiting team) hating publicity seeking DA might someday go the criminal route. Again, I see nothing that would stop it. It's workplace violence, just in an unusual workplace ....

I believe you are correct.  An act that occurs after the play is clearly over, with an obvious intent to injure is not subject to the "It's all part of the game" defense. 

[yungmack]

1 hour ago, Jobot said:

Let's take it easy.... more than half of this fan base frustration is that the Pats just dominated and will continue to dominate the Bills so long as Brady is around.  Cheap shot... Yes... Criminal act... come on now...

 

The way White was holding him all game... it's understandable that Gronk's frustration would have been at a high level.  Although what he did is still not acceptable, it is understandable.

You sound like the kind of guy that if you were an attorney and your client murdered his parents, you would plead for leniency because he was an orphan.

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, fridge said:

 

It also ended that guys career.

 

Gronk’s hit could have ended White’s career. If he had pulled out a knife and stabbed him in the leg but White had lived he still would have had criminal charges filed. It doesn’t look as shocking as a knife to the leg but what Gronk did is just as dangerous. Attacks the neck and head, with a meta brace, on a defenseless player, after the play is over. It’s egregious enough to be criminal.

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

She was got cold cocked in the head by a fist, Gronk elbowed they guy on the ground in the head with a metal brace, yes i think they are in the same universe.  Both were defenseless.  Difference is she was a female, he was an athlete with some protective gear.  I dont think you would have that sentiment if Gronk broke his beck and paralyzed him

 

You're right.

 

Male - Female

Wearing protective gear - wearing a dress

Professional football player (5'11, 192) - small woman, probably under 5'

 

I don't play "if" games.  He didn't break his back (or his neck, whatever you meant) and he didn't paralyze him.

[thunderingsquid]

2 hours ago, Jigsaw2112 said:

He should take that nonsense to the WWE where it belongs.  Although the NFL is starting to look more like "sports entertainment" every day.

 

They both have the same exact business license.  Explains a lot. 

 

The only difference is that WWE "athletes" are in on it. 

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, folz said:

 

From what I can find in a quick Google search, each state has their own laws on what a deadly weapon is and will usually list such weapons (firearms, knives, brass knuckles, etc.).

However, people have been charged with assault with a deadly weapon from things like shopping carts and a frozen fish. Every state is different, but it appears (as has happened in a number of cases), if the alleged weapon is not on the state's list, it is up to the jury to decide if it was indeed wielded as a deadly weapon. So, in one case an elbow brace might be ruled out as a deadly weapon, but in another case, a jury may decide that it was indeed used as a lethal weapon and can convict as such.

 

Any lawyers on this board who can clarify?

 

I’m not a lawyer but I have studied law and yes this is 100% correct. The law can be applied in a million different ways.

[mannc]

1 minute ago, corta765 said:

 

Probably because if you had any reading comprehension he said as much after the game that he was pissed wanted to hit him but didn't intended to hurt him. In Moore's case by Bertuzzi it was known before the game that they wanted to get him back and take him out. That's premeditated.

 

And Gronks hit didn't do the same to White. If White had a broken neck and taken out on a stretcher yea I'd want criminal charges. That's not the case and context matters.

And you believe him??  What he says after the fact is irrelevant anyway (unless he confessed to wanting to maim White).  As I pointed out before, Gronkowski's intent is inferred from his videotaped actions, not the lame excuse he offers up after the game.

[HappyDays]

Take it from an expert on brains and concussions:

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Gronk’s hit could have ended White’s career. If he had pulled out a knife and stabbed him in the leg but White had lived he still would have had criminal charges filed. It doesn’t look as shocking as a knife to the leg but what Gronk did is just as dangerous. Attacks the neck and head, with a meta brace, on a defenseless player, after the play is over. It’s egregious enough to be criminal.

 

This is a bit much Happy.  There is a major difference between stabbing a guy on the ground in a football game than elbowing a guy with a helmet on.

He should be suspended for the rest of the season but not egregious enough for it to be a crime.

[Bangarang]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

 

This is still wrong. An elbow brace could definitely be classified as a deadly weapon. Literally anything could be under the right circumstances.

 

It’s not considered a deadly weapon in NY state according to the state’s Penal law. I don’t know how else to tell you this. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Bangarang

[Lfod]

https://www.google.com/amp/news10.com/2017/03/21/man-charged-with-assault-with-a-deadly-weapon-for-tweeting-gif-to-newsweek-writer/amp/

[RoyBatty is alive]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

You're right.

 

Male - Female

Wearing protective gear - wearing a dress

Professional football player (5'11, 192) - small woman, probably under 5'

 

I don't play "if" games.  He didn't break his back (or his neck, whatever you meant) and he didn't paralyze him.

You don't play "if" games, sure about that?  i will remember that for the future.

 

Oh and as far as how big she is, i just saw a picture of the two, they actually look about the sames size, I dont know how tall Ray Rice is but something tells me he is not under 5'.

[PatsFanNH]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I believe Moore was unconscious on the ice for 10 minutes and suffered a broken neck....never played again.

I bit more serious than White.

I agree Gronk should be suspended, but that hit was nothing like that one or as a Bruins fan the one that ended the career of one of our star players a few years back  (he was cheap shorted by a penguin and he never played again.) 

 

as for the the length of the suspension I could see 2 games heck I could see 4 games. But knowing how scared Goodell is right now with Jerry jones  angry at him I have NO IDEA what he will do. 

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

You don't play "if" games, sure about that?  i will remember that for the future.

 

Oh and as far as how big she is, i just saw a picture of the two, they actually look about the sames size, I dont know how tall Ray Rice is but something tells me he is not under 5'.

 

I assume you don't have a daughter.  And if you do, I feel bad for her.

[HappyDays]

Just now, Bangarang said:

 

It’s not considered a deadly weapon in NY state. I don’t know how else to tell you this. Go learn NY state penal law and get back to me when you’ve educated yourself.

 

There is no list of official deadly weapons. I can’t explain this more than I already have. There is room for disagreement on whether this hit is criminal, but there is no debate that a metal brace can be classified as a deadly weapon under the right circumstances. If there’s a real lawyer here they will back me up.

[dorquemada]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Take it from an expert on brains and concussions:

 

 

 

 

furthermore, we don't really know the extent of White's injury yet.  just because a guy gets up off the mat doesn't mean that there isnt long term damage.  Gronk should pay, either through league discipline, or if the bills have one ounce of pride, make sure one of the Pat's critical players get similar treatment.

[Lfod]

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/kby5pn/a-brief-history-of-the-legal-definition-of-deadly-weapon

[reginald]

Will the NFL send the message to players, that you are free to strap strips of metal to your arms, and hammer other players in the head, even when they aren't looking...and even after the whistle blows. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by reginald
commas

[RoyBatty is alive]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

I assume you don't have a daughter.  And if you do, I feel bad for her.

Totally irrelevant diversionary personal comment.  Go back you will note I was the one that first mentioned the fact she was female.

[PatsFanNH]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

There is no list of official deadly weapons. I can’t explain this more than I already have. There is room for disagreement on whether this hit is criminal, but there is no debate that a metal brace can be classified as a deadly weapon under the right circumstances. If there’s a real lawyer here they will back me up.

i will just say this, that's a dangerous slope you would be heading down because once you bring someone up on charges where does the line get redrawn so as to not get brought up on charges?  A late hit out of bounds can be assault.. it's just a dangerous precedent to set. Let the NFL deal with it, then cheer or complain about the punishment then.

[Jobot]

11 minutes ago, yungmack said:

You sound like the kind of guy that if you were an attorney and your client murdered his parents, you would plead for leniency because he was an orphan.

 

murder... late hit... tomato tomahto... LOL

[dorquemada]

3 minutes ago, reginald said:

Will the NFL send the message to players, that you are free to strap strips of metal to your arms, and hammer other players in the head, even when they aren't looking...and even after the whistle blows. 

 

maybe that's what the NFL is trying to encourage to make up for the dwindling audience.  Maybe the Bills should all put on steel gauntlets and end every single play with a blow to the helmet

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

This is a bit much Happy.  There is a major difference between stabbing a guy on the ground in a football game than elbowing a guy with a helmet on.

He should be suspended for the rest of the season but not egregious enough for it to be a crime.

 

Head injuries are extremely serious, helmet or not. In a way it is worse than a stabbing because the damage is not immediately apparent. That being said unless the injury is truly serious I don’t expect Gronk to be charged, in the same way that a drunk driver who slams into an empty street corner won’t be charged with manslaughter because of pure luck that no pedestrians were in his way. But if it turned out to be a serious injury there is a very real criminal case here.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

He should be suspended as long as Tre White is out PLUS 2 games.

[dorquemada]

Just now, horned dogs said:

He should be suspended as long as Tre White is out PLUS 2 games.

 

i mean if the NFL is trying to become AMERICAN GLADIATORS II or something dumb like that, maybe make Gronk play his next game with no helmet

[Bangarang]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

There is no list of official deadly weapons. I can’t explain this more than I already have. There is room for disagreement on whether this hit is criminal, but there is no debate that a metal brace can be classified as a deadly weapon under the right circumstances. If there’s a real lawyer here they will back me up.

 

You are wrong. It is defined in NY state and it’s not a deadly weapon. At best it’s a dangerous instrument. Please learn NY state Penal code and stop with this nonsense. 

[P51]

Seems similar to me of the Bertuzzi/Moore situation in some regards, but Gronk needs to be suspended, if they wanted to the Erie County DA could easily prosecute this case IMO. 

 

FWIW, NYS Law on intentional assault with a dangerous instrument (viewed as I see it the same as a "weapon".)

 

NY Penal Law Article 120:

 

S 120.05 Assault in the second degree.
  A person is guilty of assault in the second degree when:
    1.  With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he
  causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or
    2. With intent to cause physical injury to another person,  he  causes
  such  injury  to  such  person or to a third person by means of a deadly
  weapon or a dangerous instrument; or 

4.  He  recklessly causes serious physical injury to another person by
  means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument; or

 Assault in the second degree is a class D felony.

This is from a legal website: https://newyorklegaldefense.com/practice-areas/violent-crimes/new-york-assault-defense-lawyers/

 

Assault in the second degree can be charged where “serious physical injuries” resulted from the assault, and the assault was carried out with the intent of causing such injuries.  The law defines “serious physical injuries” as “a physical injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes death or serious protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of health or protracted loss or impairment of any bodily organ.” (NY Penal Law 10.00(10)).  A cut or bruise would not qualify as a serious physical injury, but a broken bone would.

 

Assault in the second degree can also be charged where a “deadly weapon” or “dangerous instrument” is used.  A dangerous instrument is defined broadly at NY Penal Law 10.00(13) to include any object that could be used to cause serious physical injury.  The use of the object does not need to actually cause a “serious physical injury.”  If a person intends to cause a physical injury and causes even a minor physical injury with a weapon, they are guilty of second degree assault.

 

http://www.nycourts.gov/judges/cji/2-PenalLaw/cji3.shtml

 

1. That on or about 11/4/2017(date) , in the county of Erie(county) , the defendant, "Gronk"(defendant's name) , caused physical injury to Tre'Davious White(specify) by means of a deadly weapon [or dangerous instrument]; and 2. That the defendant did so with the intent to cause physical injury to Brain(specify) .

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

 

You are wrong. It is defined in NY state and it’s not a deadly weapon. At best it’s a dangerous instrument. Please learn NY state Penal code and stop with this nonsense. 

 

Link? I’ll let you know which part you’re misreading.

[fridge]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Gronk’s hit could have ended White’s career. If he had pulled out a knife and stabbed him in the leg but White had lived he still would have had criminal charges filed. It doesn’t look as shocking as a knife to the leg but what Gronk did is just as dangerous. Attacks the neck and head, with a meta brace, on a defenseless player, after the play is over. It’s egregious enough to be criminal.

 

I'm mostly on your side. If anything I felt the guy I quoted undersold the Bertuzzi incident.

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Head injuries are extremely serious, helmet or not. In a way it is worse than a stabbing because the damage is not immediately apparent. That being said unless the injury is truly serious I don’t expect Gronk to be charged, in the same way that a drunk driver who slams into an empty street corner won’t be charged with manslaughter because of pure luck that no pedestrians were in his way. But if it turned out to be a serious injury there is a very real criminal case here.

 

I think your examples are really dramatic.

I don’t think elbowing a guy in a football game is the same as a drunk driver operating a vehicle and slamming into an empty street corner.  It’s a crime regardless if no one is hurt/killed.

 

There are a lot of injuries that aren’t apparent right away, not just the head.

[Mark Vader]

The NFL had better throw the book at this B word!

 

Who cares if he's never done anything as egregious like this before? He did it and he did it with intent.

 

Gronkowski's "apology" was insulting.

 

Gargantuan fine and a suspension of no less than 8, no more than 12 games for this piece of crap.

 

If the NFL really wants to send a message to deter players from doing anything like this, they will get it.

[Jobot]

The real crime is the pussification of this defense that provided ZERO retaliation!

[Bangarang]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Link? I’ll let you know which part you’re misreading.

 

I didn’t misread anything. Are you in law enforcement? Please tell me how to do my job. Can’t wait.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

The NFL had better throw the book at this B word!

 

Who cares if he's never done anything as egregious like this before? He did it and he did it with intent.

 

Gronkowski's "apology" was insulting.

 

Gargantuan fine and a suspension of no less than 8, no more than 12 games for this piece of crap.

 

If the NFL really wants to send a message to deter players from doing anything like this, they will get it.

I have no doubt in my mind that if it had been White hitting Gronkowski he would have been ejected and suspended. First person that needs to be suspended is Steratore.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

The NFL had better throw the book at this B word!

 

Who cares if he's never done anything as egregious like this before? He did it and he did it with intent.

 

Gronkowski's "apology" was insulting.

 

Gargantuan fine and a suspension of no less than 8, no more than 12 games for this piece of crap.

 

If the NFL really wants to send a message to deter players from doing anything like this, they will get it.

 

He needs to be suspended for the season.

[CanadianFan]

I have never been so angry about an incident in a football game in all my life. I was angry for three reasons.

 

1) It was as you OP said, CRIMINAL act. More barbaric than the fight between talib and crabtree. It was NOT spontaneous. Occurring a few good moments of time had passed after the interception, it was full of intent to injure. It was OBVIOUSLY outside the bounds of the game. It IS a criminal assault, just like in the Bertuzzi hit. Gronk should be charged!

 

2) Tre was our best young player. He was our FUTURE. He was our FOUNDATION PLAYER. What does the horrible cheating Patriots do?  They send a THUG after him to make sure they ROB us of our future. 

 

3) Who knows how well he is going to be going forward. You are never the same after a concussion. This is why I used the word "was" because you won't see the same version of Tre again. Concussion changes you. You are now prone to more concussions with minor hits and incidents. Your brain just doesn't process as fast as it used to. (I know because I have had multiple concussions and it just gets harder and harder.) Rob just impaired Tre for the rest of his life. That's criminal. Unforgivable. COWARDLY.

Edited December 4, 2017 by CanadianFan