So who's YOUR starting qb?

[HappyDays]

It was not a weird example at all. People thought Tuel was a starter in this league based on his preseason play. There are threads on this board talking about how he should start. Guess what he is not even a decent QB. People are talking about Peterson as a starter, based on his preseason play. See the parallel? And, people who are "impressed" by Peterson must have been absolutely blown away by Tuels play seeing as he arguably looked better than Peterson, in preseason, as a rookie. But yea, weird example.

 

Again, Jeff Tuel hasn't been in the league in 2 years, Manual still is and looks like he has solidified the backup job in Oakland.

 

So yea, they were far off. Manual may have not been starter material but he is still far and away a much better QB than Jeff Tuel.

Tuel did deserve time with the the first-team offense because the QB spot should always be an open competition until you have someone. He did not end up deserving to be a starter, that doesn't mean his chance wasn't warranted. No one is saying Peterman will end up successful, but he's also shown enough to get a shot at some point. He's still far below a 50/50 probability of becoming a long-term starter. If he's worse than Tyrod, oh well, that means we're drafting one high next year.

 

And I still have hope Tyrod can look good in the real offense. I have my doubts that the offense we've seen so far is what it will really look like.

[Kirby Jackson]

Well, let's see. The game Taylor didn't play in 2016 was the last game against the Jets, which featured an offense led by Manuel and a team eliminated from contention. Oh, and I think McCoy got injured in that game early as well. So that might have had an effect on their YPC.

 

In 2015 they played against the #7 rush defense in Cincy without Taylor. Making the argument that Taylor's loss had a big impact on the run game in that situation is tenuous IMO. The game that makes your point is the London game against the Jags, which McCoy averaged 3.8. I'm inclined to agree that not having Taylor mattered there, as it's the single outlier that makes your point somewhat palatable.

The facts are the facts. We can try to find reasons for why they are what they are. The point remains that those are the numbers without Tyrod. The Bills have not been a good rushing team.

[Magox]

It's not untrue either. We aren't a knowledgable fan base. A lot of it comes from the the years of bad football. We don't play good football in WNY. The % of people that play is comparatively small. Our media doesn't know the game. We don't have another team that is followed (with respect to UB). We watch and understand football less than most other parts of the country.

 

Kirby, it doesn't come off well in the context of this discussion. Even if you find some people's views to be unreasonable, that is nothing new when it comes to people's opinions. Having unreasonable views is an age-old pastime for any sort of discussion among people and it most certainly is nothing new or having to do with people being less knowledgeable, if anything people have more access to statistics, live stream games, analytics etc at any time in history and that trend will only continue.

 

Keep making your case if you feel that passionately about it but there really isn't a need to essentially belittle them as a bunch of know-nothings simply because they don't view things the way you do. It's not a good look.

[Albwan]

Honestly at this point I really don't care...17 years of hilarity

and benny hill type football has numbed me. I'm a bills fan

out of habit, however I just cant see see the forest for the

trees anymore. The organization to me feels like the train

wreck i'm finally able to look away from.

[GoBills808]

The facts are the facts. We can try to find reasons for why they are what they are. The point remains that those are the numbers without Tyrod. The Bills have not been a good rushing team.

And you don't think that McCoy being injured for one of those games without Taylor has any bearing? And you're lecturing people about being stupid?

 

Come on, all I hear about this board is it being the deep end and yet when the football talk starts it's like wading in piss. Disappointing to say the least.

[Big Gun]

When you say he was terrible the last two seasons, that is dishonest posting.

Look in the mirror when you say he was good.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Kirby, it doesn't come off well in the context of this discussion. Even if you find some people's views to be unreasonable, that is nothing new when it comes to people's opinions. Having unreasonable views is an age-old pastime for any sort of discussion among people and it most certainly is nothing new or having to do with people being less knowledgeable, if anything people have more access to statistics, live stream games, analytics etc at any time in history and that trend will only continue.

 

Keep making your case if you feel that passionately about it but there really isn't a need to essentially belittle them as a bunch of know-nothings simply because they don't view things the way you do. It's not a good look.

Not trying to belittle anyone. I think that we'd all agree that the level of conversation regarding the Bills has regressed. I'm not talking about anyone in particular. There are a lot of reasons that I named. It's the same reasons that hockey fans in Buffalo are light years ahead of Raleigh as an example. We grew up playing the game, watching the game, our media has superior hockey knowledge and we watch a lot of it comparatively. I didn't think that would offend people. As I said, it isn't untrue.

And you don't think that McCoy being injured for one of those games without Taylor has any bearing? And you're lecturing people about being stupid?

 

Come on, all I hear about this board is it being the deep end and yet when the football talk starts it's like wading in piss. Disappointing to say the least.

McCoy has been the Bills best player since he got here. He's been one of (if not the) best players since the Super Bowl year. No one is arguing otherwise.

[billsfan60]

I agree

 

vote split right down the middle ,but half of us are stupid ...

forgot to add "and all them gol durned Peteymon voturs is frum BBMB" (just to complete how silly the whole conversation is at this point)

[Wayne Cubed]

Tuel did deserve time with the the first-team offense because the QB spot should always be an open competition until you have someone. He did not end up deserving to be a starter, that doesn't mean his chance wasn't warranted. No one is saying Peterman will end up successful, but he's also shown enough to get a shot at some point. He's still far below a 50/50 probability of becoming a long-term starter. If he's worse than Tyrod, oh well, that means we're drafting one high next year.

 

And I still have hope Tyrod can look good in the real offense. I have my doubts that the offense we've seen so far is what it will really look like.

No he didn't, and he only got his shot because of an injury, to Thad Lewis and then never got a shot again. Fans thought he deserved a shot, the coaching staff never thought that, which is why they brought in Thad Lewis instead of playing Tuel when Manual was hurt. If Tuel deserved a shot they would have played him.

 

Seriously, do you not remember the situation?

[JM2009]

Look in the mirror when you say he was good.

I've never said he was good. You say that I and others say that when that is not true. You keep saying that, but he also has been far from terrible. he's been better than most of the QBs we have had this century.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

I can understand wanting Peterman to an extent with this new offense. But to say TT was terrible the last two seasons-I have to wonder what people are thinking or watching. Or why they have an agenda of hate against the guy.

...he was not terrible IMO.....BUT his top ten Bills "O" ranking led to 7-9......don't get me wrong here.....the Wrecks defense unraveling played a role....how many times does BB preach about winning all three phases of the game?.....problem is Pats can win batting .667 with one phase lagging.....Buffalo cannot consistently depend on the offense week in and week out when or if called upon.....passing component is woefully inconsistent....

Edited August 27, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[GoBills808]

McCoy has been the Bills best player since he got here. He's been one of (if not the) best players since the Super Bowl year. No one is arguing otherwise.

But you ARE trying to make the case that our run game is more a product of Taylor than of McCoy. But you can't sell that because it's counterintuitive and completely backward. So let's just acknowledge how great McCoy has been and pretend we never had this argument. You can go back to telling us how stupid we are, and the TBD world keeps on turning.

[Kirby Jackson]

But you ARE trying to make the case that our run game is more a product of Taylor than of McCoy. But you can't sell that because it's counterintuitive and completely backward. So let's just acknowledge how great McCoy has been and pretend we never had this argument. You can go back to telling us how stupid we are, and the TBD world keeps on turning.

I'm not trying to make that argument at all. I am saying that the Bills ELITE running game has a lot of factors. McCoy, the OL, the FB, receivers blocking, the scheme and the threat of Tyrod all play a role. We will see it regress this year. It isn't because McCoy is worse or Tyrod or the OL. We will have the exact same guys with Dawkins and Dimarco as additions and different receivers. The scheme isn't as good. Edited August 27, 2017 by Kirby Jackson

[Big Gun]

I've never said he was good. You say that I and others say that when that is not true. You keep saying that, but he also has been far from terrible. he's been better than most of the QBs we have had this century.

Then what exactly is your argument about with people who don't see Tyrod as the answer?

[HappyDays]

No he didn't, and he only got his shot because of an injury, to Thad Lewis and then never got a shot again. Fans thought he deserved a shot, the coaching staff never thought that, which is why they brought in Thad Lewis instead of playing Tuel when Manual was hurt. If Tuel deserved a shot they would have played him.

 

Seriously, do you not remember the situation?

A coaching and/or front office staff in the NFL making a decision is not conclusive evidence that the decision was right. Far from it. I would almost go so far as to say the opposite is true.

[harv shitz]

I think you give the ball to the kid and see what he can do.

 

He has actually moved them better the Tyrod, and did so last night.

 

Chances are we aren't going anywhere this year, anyway, so why not let Peterman start, and play, and by the end of the year you should know if he's capable or not.

 

What if he starts to play extremely well the last month, and they come on and play for him? Can you imagine the rapid improvement you can have next season if you don't have to pick a high round quarterback?

 

Only way to know is to let him play. We know what we have in Taylor, and it's no different than what we've had for 20 years.

[GoBills808]

I'm not trying to make that argument at all. I am saying that the Bills ELITE running game has a lot of factors. McCoy, the OL, the scheme and the threat of Tyrod all play a role. We will see it regress this year. It isn't because McCoy is worse or Tyrod or the OL. We will have the exact same guys (with Dawkins and Dimarco) as additions. The scheme isn't as good.

 

OK, so when you said:

 

Glad that you wanted to bring facts into the equation. Over the last 2 years the Bills have 79 carries for 295 yards and a fantastic 3.7 YPC in games that Tyrod didn't play. 2 of those 3 games were against teams that picked in the top 5 in the following draft. McCoy without Tyrod had 40 carries for 168 yards and 4.2 YPC in those games. That 3.7 YPC would have the Bills as the 28th best rushing offense. You don't believe that Tyrod is an important part of the running game?!?!?!?

 

...you WEREN'T trying to make the case that without Taylor we go from 1st to 28th in terms of rushing YPC? That we fall from the best to one of the worst rushing attacks in the league? You bring up our rush stats for games without Taylor, extrapolate them to make a point, and then back off and say that wasn't actually what you were trying to say?

 

Come on, own it.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

OK, so when you said:

 

 

...you WEREN'T trying to make the case that without Taylor we go from 1st to 28th in terms of rushing YPC? That we fall from the best to one of the worst rushing attacks in the league? You bring up our rush stats for games without Taylor, extrapolate them to make a point, and then back off and say that wasn't actually what you were trying to say?

 

Come on, own it.

Read those words again or go back to old posts and see that I have said THE EXACT same thing on numerous occasions. Here is a similar take from July: https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/191879-teddy-bridgewater-expected-to-miss-all-of-2017-season/page-9

 

The Bills running game was great because it was a perfect storm. We no longer have that elite scheme. It will regress.

[thebandit27]

Well, let's see. The game Taylor didn't play in 2016 was the last game against the Jets, which featured an offense led by Manuel and a team eliminated from contention. Oh, and I think McCoy got injured in that game early as well. So that might have had an effect on their YPC.

 

In 2015 they played against the #7 rush defense in Cincy without Taylor. Making the argument that Taylor's loss had a big impact on the run game in that situation is tenuous IMO. The game that makes your point is the London game against the Jags, which McCoy averaged 3.8. I'm inclined to agree that not having Taylor mattered there, as it's the single outlier that makes your point somewhat palatable.

Just FYI Cinci's run D in 2015 was bottom-10 in YPC allowed, so there's no outlier in Kirby's argument Edited August 27, 2017 by thebandit27

[Wayne Cubed]

A coaching and/or front office staff in the NFL making a decision is not conclusive evidence that the decision was right. Far from it. I would almost go so far as to say the opposite is true.

Well when that decision turns out to be accurate I'd say it's pretty conclusive. They were correct about Tuel as much as a certain percentage of the fan base thought they were.

 

But yea, coaching staffs and FOs get it wrong. I wouldn't go as far to say when they make a decision the opposite is true. I mean if that were the case then they'd be wrong about the Watkins trade, which as I recall you seemed to back.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Indeed

 

People that watch more than just the preseason and don't have an agenda tend to place more emphasis on his body of work over 29 regular season games than 2 preseason quarters

 

Crazy, I know

That's because we know Taylors not a passing QB.

Crazy as it is he's not show us anything new.

Edited August 27, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[Boatdrinks]

Read those words again or go back to old posts and see that I have said THE EXACT same thing on numerous occasions. Here is a similar take from July: https://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/191879-teddy-bridgewater-expected-to-miss-all-of-2017-season/page-9

The Bills running game was great because it was a perfect storm. We no longer have that elite scheme. It will regress.

I think you're most likely right Kirby. Sometimes the unexpected happens. In this case it did. Could something unexpected happen to this offense? It could, but it doesn't appear likely. Asking players to do things they don't do well is generally a recipe for disaster.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

15-14 as a starter in the regular season (despite a badly underachieving defense) and a top-10 scoring offense

 

I'd say he's proven that he's not overwhelmed as a starter

 

Nobody said he can't be improved upon

You're talking team again and not TT

 

JM2009, on 27 Aug 2017 - 2:50 PM, said:

He was also the seventh rated QB when under pressure in 2016. His presence makes the running game better. he is by far the best running QB in the league. rushing TDs count the same as passing TDs.. he isn't great, was not expected to be esp since he is just a FA, and he is not terrible. But if they don't want him to run and took away his deep threat, maybe they should trade him.

 

 

This is just the dumbest argument it makes me want to scream. Read my post last page.

You'll never sway team Taylor.

[Kirby Jackson]

I think you're most likely right Kirby. Sometimes the unexpected happens. In this case it did. Could something unexpected happen to this offense? It could, but it doesn't appear likely. Asking players to do things they don't do well is generally a recipe for disaster.

I agree with you 100%. The same thing is happening on offense right now that Rex did to the defense. Changing what works is not a good idea. The Bills should have tried to run a similar scheme and focused on improving the intermediate passing game. They should have kept the same running scheme and tried to still throw the ball down the field. That had them as a top 10 scoring offense. Instead, they got rid of the speed and down field threats. The running scheme is a lot different. When Rex came in the Bills pass rush was great. They got pressure with 4 in Schwartz's scheme. Rex came in and abandoned what worked and the defense suffered greatly. Now, they look like a good defense again by reverting back to what they do well.

[GoBills808]

Just FYI Cinci's run D in 2015 was bottom-10 in YPC allowed, so there's no outlier in Kirby's argument

They were indeed. And McCoy averaged 5.3 YPC against them that game. Again, the ONLY game that fits his claim is the Jacksonville fiasco.

[thebandit27]

They were indeed. And McCoy averaged 5.3 YPC against them that game. Again, the ONLY game that fits his claim is the Jacksonville fiasco.

And the Jets game that you decided didn't count because shady was out...but the guy that had the highest YPC in the NFL last year played.

You're talking team again and not TT

 

You'll never sway team Taylor.

As Kirby points out, just compare the O in 2015-2016 with Tyrod to the O in 2015-2016 without him.

 

What's the result?

[DrDawkinstein]

 

Why though? Brady was a 6th rounder...Warner was undrafted...Jason Peters was undrafted TE.

 

This obsession over where a player was found by this board never ceases to amaze me. This board always OVER VALUES draft picks over talent...then when we use those draft picks on players, everyone wants to write them off if they don't like the exact spot where they were drafted.

 

Not yelling, caps to emphasize: ONCE YOU ARE ON A ROSTER, HOW YOU GOT THERE HAS ZERO RELEVANCE...PERIOD. I am soooo tired of people disregarding players because they hate where they were taken in the draft.

 

Dak was a 3rd, Russel was a 3rd, Carr was a 2nd, Brady was a 6th, Cousins was a 4th, Brees was a 2nd, Warner wasn't drafted, and so on and so on. The draft isn't until after the season, we already have Peterman a guy who was projected to go in the 2nd-4th round going into the draft. So why just say "who cares, let him get ruined because we will just draft another one next year" and see if we might have found a gem like its happened so many times before?

 

I mean this logic is aggravating and baffling to me. Nothing would be better than to see a QB on this roster cease the job for the future so we can use the bounty of picks building this team. Even if you don't think it will happen, it still could. The staff has repeatedly said they like this kid...he is not ready today, but man he has shown some real potential, and to disregard and throw in the towel on him is stupid.

 

 

I dont necessarily disagree with any of your points, I just dont care nearly as much anymore.

 

And yeah, Dak was a 3d, Wilson was a 3rd... and that's why we saw Mahomes go #10 overall.

 

Even if 1 or 2 don't come out, there should be 3-4 1st round QB prospects for us next year. You gotta go in early to get your guy nowadays. And frankly, I just dont trust this team (even with the new FO) to find those hidden gems at QB in the later rounds. This team has almost never been able to identify good QB talent. If anything, I'm for pulling a Redskins and taking 1 in the 1st and another by the 4th, and let them compete with Peterman and Tyrod next year.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

And the Jets game that you decided didn't count because shady was out...but the guy that had the highest YPC in the NFL last year played.

 

As Kirby points out, just compare the O in 2015-2016 with Tyrod to the O in 2015-2016 without him.

 

What's the result?

Throw out what you saw last season

 

This is an whole new offense.

 

Tyrods crutch Sammy is gone and the excuses have to end.

 

It's season 3. Plenty of time to see who he is and what his limitations are.

Edited August 27, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan

[thebandit27]

Throw out what you saw last season

 

This is an whole new offense.

 

Tyrods crutch Sammy is gone and the excuses have to end.

 

It's season 3. Plenty of time to see who he is and what his limitations are.

Throw out last year?

 

Ok...who should start at RB?

[xsoldier54]

Tyrod or Peterman? I really don't see any step back starting Peterman this season. What is Tyrod gonna do any difference come Sept 10th?

Peterman is a rookie. Taylor despite his flaws has experience as a starter at the NFL level. It's a no brainer. At this stage in their professional development Taylor is the better option at QB. Peterman may be a decent NFL QB one day, but not now.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Sure why not.

 

You know better than that.

 

It the passing game that needs to evolve not the running game.

Throw out last year?

 

Ok...who should start at RB?

And for the record.

 

 

My point has been not to 💩 on Peterman so fast.

[Gunsgoodtime]

Any human being willing to risk his life behind this Oline is who I would go with. Count me out.

[JM2009]

Any human being willing to risk his life behind this Oline is who I would go with. Count me out.

Hopefully Glenn can go day 1.

[Agent 91]

None of the above...they all suck.....

 

On a real team Yates wouldn't make it past the first round of cuts. He's awful.

Technically hasnt made it passed ours yet either.

[xRUSHx]

Tyrod pushers working hard in this thread. Many can see Tyrod should have never been brought back while the same blind pushers continue to bang there head into the wall and pretend it doesn't hurt while blood drips down there face throwing padded stats to prove there point. It's over man move on, using Tyrod is a complete waste of time, energy and team money. Trade him and bring in another while Peterman starts. SMH if this staff is going to continue down the Chan failed path of trying to show how a backup QB from another team is this teams best option even though the last staff proved Tyrod just isn't good enough, we already watched this failed show the last two seasons.

When it comes to Tyrod its everyone else that has failed not the saviour Tyrod when it comes to moving the ball.SMH

[JM2009]

Tyrod pushers working hard in this thread. Many can see Tyrod should have never been brought back while the same blind pushers continue to bang there head into the wall and pretend it doesn't hurt while blood drips down there face throwing padded stats to prove there point. It's over man move on, using Tyrod is a complete waste of time, energy and team money. Trade him and bring in another while Peterman starts. SMH if this staff is going to continue down the Chan failed path of trying to show how a backup QB from another team is this teams best option even though the last staff proved Tyrod just isn't good enough, we already watched this failed show the last two seasons.

The defense was the main problem in 2016, not TT. He did a pretty good job in the offense he was managing-he was allowed to run and throw deep. Both have been taken away. But why do I bother. .. padded stats-are you kidding me? you can't even acknowledge what the guy does well. You have a serious problem here.

[26CornerBlitz]

Tyrod pushers working hard in this thread. Many can see Tyrod should have never been brought back while the same blind pushers continue to bang there head into the wall and pretend it doesn't hurt while blood drips down there face throwing padded stats to prove there point. It's over man move on, using Tyrod is a complete waste of time, energy and team money. Trade him and bring in another while Peterman starts. SMH if this staff is going to continue down the Chan failed path of trying to show how a backup QB from another team is this teams best option even though the last staff proved Tyrod just isn't good enough, we already watched this failed show the last two seasons.

When it comes to Tyrod its everyone else that has failed not the saviour Tyrod when it comes to moving the ball.SMH

 

One of BBMB's finest.

[Big Gun]

The defense was the main problem in 2016, not TT. He did a pretty good job in the offense he was managing-he was allowed to run and throw deep. Both have been taken away. But why do I bother. .. padded stats-are you kidding me? you can't even acknowledge what the guy does well. You have a serious problem here.

You nailed it, that is all he does well. Unfortunately for him and his followers there is a whole lot more to being a QB than running and throwing deep. In the world of TT followers nothing more is needed I guess.

[Rochesterfan]

1. Peterman is completing 50% of his passes...that is TEBOW-esque.

2. I do LIKE Peterman as a prospect, and the WORST way to develop a kid who isn't ready is to throw him to the wolves. Everyone here who wants him to start either hates the kid or doesn't understand how to develop a QB.

3. We have one of, if not the worst, offensive line in terms of pass protection in football right now. Another reason putting him out there too early could just set the kid back.

 

I swear, its like the fan base here has had their head in the sand for 17 years. Serious question: HOW MANY TIMES DO THE BILLS NEED TO RUIN THE DEVELOPMENT OF A YOUNG QB BEFORE YOU PEOPLE REALIZE ITS THE WRONG WAY TO DO IT?

 

Putting a young QB out there who isn't quite ready behind a bad offensive line is a TERRIBLE...and I mean TERRIBLE tactic to develop him. There is NO REASON to start him over Taylor, not one. It changes nothing for us.

 

And most important, Taylor has already been named the starter Week 1, so this poll is a dead thread and completely pointless. I do think that if Taylor and the offense continue to struggle into the season, that Peterman WILL and SHOULD get a chance to take over and showcase what he may or may not be the rest of the season. HOWEVER, there is ZERO chance that is week 1. Not guessing, but literal ZERO chance as McD already stated with a shadow of a doubt that TT is the starter entering the regular season.

 

So what is the correct way to develop a QB?

 

We had Collins and Losman - both sat a year before getting to start - did not develop.

 

We had Edwards and Manual - started as Rookies - did not develop.

 

Across the league - you had guys like Manning in the past and Prescott/Wilson start as rookies and develop and guys like Brady and Rodgers take a year or more and develop.

 

Cleveland has had a ton of picks some starting right away and some sitting and they have not developed.

 

 

I believe - if a guy is a fit in the system - playing him will develop him faster than sitting him. I think sitting a player will produce a more consistent player when they actually start, but it does not aid in development.

 

The key is the guy has to be a player. Sitting and starting has never been a factor as far as I can tell - both systems work and former NFL QBs have Pros and Cons of both. If the Bills feel he is the better player - there is no reason not to start him. If the Bills feel TT gives them the best chance at the moment - then you start him.

 

Everything you state is your opinion - I would love to see the facts that back it up.

[xRUSHx]

The defense was the main problem in 2016, not TT. He did a pretty good job in the offense he was managing-he was allowed to run and throw deep. Both have been taken away. But why do I bother. .. padded stats-are you kidding me? you can't even acknowledge what the guy does well. You have a serious problem here.

You guys have the problem, you guys need to retire the Tyrod pajamas and let it go. Sadly you few are the same lost souls that couldn't let Fitz go. Here we go again with you few trying hard to hold this team back with yet another backup QB not good enough. SMH Edited August 28, 2017 by xRUSHx