If the Bills intentional tank the season DW should be fired

[DriveFor1Outta5]

Ya realistically Von Miller. Would have been nice having one of the best defenders in the league. But thank god we got hot at the end of that 2010 season, we needed those 4 wins.....

This is the problem with people who think tanking makes sense in the NFL. Sure we won 4 meaningless games but we still had the number three pick. We got Dareus out of it. If you feel we needed to do better guys drafted after Dareus included Julio Jones, JJ Watt, and AJ Green. You don't always need a top 5 pick to build a team. You just need a good front office. The idea of "purgatory" is just a phrase created by this franchise to cover for their incompetence.

No it didn't. The Bills were absolute morons that year. They were 2-10 and won 2 games that put them squarely with the #3 overall pick. If we hadn't been morons, we could've had Von Miller, if not Cam.

We still could have had Julio Jones,JJ Watt, or AJ Green if you don't like Dareus.Receiver was a need at the time as well, but this team never seems to draft for need. That's an entirely separate philosophical debate though. Edited February 15, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[FireChan]

This is the problem with people who think tanking makes sense in the NFL. Sure we won 4 meaningless games but we still had the number three pick. We got Dareus out of it. If you feel we needed to do better guys drafted after Dareus included Julio Jones, JJ Watt, and AJ Green. You don't always need a top 5 pick to build a team. You just need a good front office. The idea of "purgatory" is just a phrase created by this franchise to cover for their incompetence.

We still could have had Julio Jones,JJ Watt, or AJ Green if you don't like Dareus.Receiver was a need at the time as well, but this team never seems to draft for need. That's an entirely separate philosophical debate though.

No one knew JJ Watt would've been JJ Watt.

 

We had a defense utterly bereft of talent in 2011 and needed a talent infusion from stars. Saying we didn't "need" Dareus is not true.

[Billznut]

Pegs would have to approve of a tank job and be looking long term, so why would he fire the GM for carrying out that plan?

Pegula did exactly this move with GM Darcy Regier and the Sabres

[DriveFor1Outta5]

No one knew JJ Watt would've been JJ Watt.

 

We had a defense utterly bereft of talent in 2011 and needed a talent infusion from stars. Saying we didn't "need" Dareus is not true.

No one knows that a lot of the guys will become the best players. That's the problem with "tanking". You don't guarantee yourself all that much with top 5 picks in the NFL. Look at where many of the best QB's in the game were drafted. It's quite often not with top 5 picks. As far as Dareus is concerned we did already have Kyle Williams, and if I recall our receivers were a joke. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I'm not criticizing the Dareus selection. The entire team was "bereft" of talent in 2011. I'm just saying that if you claim the four wins in 2010 hurt this franchise that's simplifying matters too much. We didn't get Von Miller but there were a few great players selected after him. So imo you can't really blame those wins for our misfortunes. Edited February 15, 2017 by DriveFor1Outta5

[FireChan]

No one knows that a lot of the guys will become the best players. That's the problem with "tanking". You don't guarantee yourself all that much with top 5 picks in the NFL. Look at where many of the best QB's in the game were drafted. It's quite often not with top 5 picks. As far as Dareus is concerned we did already have Kyle Williams, and if I recall our receivers were a joke. Hindsight is 20/20 though. I'm not criticizing the Dareus selection. I'm just saying that if you claim the four wins in 2010 hurt this franchise that's simplifying matters too much. We didn't get Von Miller but there were a few great players selected after him. So imo you can't really blame those wins for our misfortunes.

I mean, if we only won 1 of 4 we would've gotten Cam. You know, the guy who set rookie QB records, won MVP and went to a Super Bowl?

 

We guaranteed not getting Cam and Luck by not having the #1 overall pick. We guaranteed not getting the highest ranked defensive player in the 2011 draft by not getting #2.

 

If you get #1, you can pick anybody. You can't "miss out" on guys. If you draft a bust, it's because your player evaluation sucks, not because some other team got the player you really wanted.

 

It makes thing simple.

Edited February 15, 2017 by FireChan

[Augie]

If the Bills tank, Whaley probably has more time, otherwise why would he tank?

This thread could have ended with this, one minute in.

[ndirish1978]

Oh DW will trade away player like Dareus and sabotage the team, i have faith in that.

 

Instead of manning up and realizing he has no idea what hes doing he'll take this team with him.

 

Step away from the ledge. Also, to echo the point that multiple posters have already made: a tank is evidence he's not going anywhere.

Edited February 15, 2017 by ndirish1978

[TheFunPolice]

How about we make the playoffs for the first time in a generation?

 

People 21 and younger have no memory of this team ever being good.

 

Pegula has to want owning a team to be fun at some point.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

I mean, if we only won 1 of 4 we would've gotten Cam. You know, the guy who set rookie QB records, won MVP and went to a Super Bowl?

 

We guaranteed not getting Cam and Luck by not having the #1 overall pick. We guaranteed not getting the highest ranked defensive player in the 2011 draft by not getting #2.

 

If you get #1, you can pick anybody. You can't "miss out" on guys. If you draft a bust, it's because your player evaluation sucks, not because some other team got the player you really wanted.

 

It makes thing simple.

If you can't "miss out" how come we didn't draft Wilson,Dalton,Cousins or Prescott? Teams miss out all the time. Drafting a QB number one overall is no guarantee. Plenty of people thought that David Carr and Ryan Lead would never be a bust. Otherwise they wouldn't have been drafted number one overall. Player evaluation is not a perfect science. The majority of great NFL QB's were not drafted number one overall. That is the way it worked worked back in the 70s and 80s. It's simply no longer true. The Bills need to actually draft QB's in order to find one. We aren't missing out because we win a few games. We miss out because our front office is a joke. The Browns win less than we do, and their joke of franchise can't get it right either.

[FireChan]

If you can't "miss out" how come we didn't draft Wilson,Dalton,Cousins or Prescott? Teams miss out all the time. Drafting a QB number one overall is no guarantee. Plenty of people thought that David Carr and Ryan Lead would never be a bust. Otherwise they wouldn't have been drafted number one overall. Player evaluation is not a perfect science. The majority of great NFL QB's were not drafted number one overall. That is the way it worked worked back in the 70s and 80s. It's simply no longer true. The Bills need to actually draft QB's in order to find one. We aren't missing out because we win a few games. We miss out because our front office is a joke. The Browns win less than we do, and their joke of franchise can't get it right either.

You misunderstand. I meant "miss out" as a team drafts a player before you can.

 

The Bills absolutely need to draft more QB's. And draft them high.

 

The Browns don't draft enough QB's either.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

You misunderstand. I meant "miss out" as a team drafts a player before you can.

 

The Bills absolutely need to draft more QB's. And draft them high.

 

The Browns don't draft enough QB's either.

That makes sense. I just believe that with the number one pick teams miss out a lot. The NFL draft is supposed to create parody. It doesn't really work that way all the time. More often than not the same bottom feeder teams are the top of the draft board. The great franchises remain great with late round picks. That's why I'm not ever going to blame this playoff drought on poor draft position.

[FireChan]

That makes sense. I just believe that with the number one pick teams miss out a lot. The NFL draft is supposed to create parody. It doesn't really work that way all the time. More often than not the same bottom feeder teams are the top of the draft board. The great franchises remain great with late round picks. That's why I'm not ever going to blame this playoff drought on poor draft position.

They don't take enough QBs or lose hard enough, generally.

 

Wentz is a promising young QB, Browns ditched him. They didn't get the #1 or 2 when Winston and Mariota were there.

 

It's a combo of unlucky and stupid.

Edited February 15, 2017 by FireChan

[ndirish1978]

ok so we all agree the plan this year should be to draft 6 QBs, to ensure we don't miss out.

[DrDawkinstein]

This thread makes zero logical sense.

 

If "the Bills" intentionally tank... The Pegulas are included in "the Bills", that means they would be on-board with the strategy and expect to lose, and Doug and McDermott would get a pass.

 

Ah, the offseason. This is gonna be a long one.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

They don't take enough QBs or lose hard enough, generally.

 

Wentz is a promising young QB, Browns ditched him. They didn't get the #1 or 2 when Winston and Mariota were there.

 

It's a combo of unlucky and stupid.

I'm ok with that line of thought. I just don't think you need the number 1 or 2 pick to build a winner. Franchises like the Packers and the Cowboys built themselves soild long term hopes while still winning. They never had number one or two draft choices. They just made soild team building decisions, and continued to be winners.

[FireChan]

I'm ok with that line of thought. I just don't think you need the number 1 or 2 pick to build a winner. Franchises like the Packers and the Cowboys built themselves soild long term hopes while still winning. They never had number one or two draft choices. They just made soild team building decisions, and continued to be winners.

Nah you don't. But having it when it's a Luck, Cam, Jameis, Winston, Mariota, Manning, Elway, Eli, Big Ben, year makes it way easier.

[GunnerBill]

 

 

Not choosing Tyrod with that contract isn't a tank, it's one of the very logical ways to proceed.

 

And the difference between Tyrod and someone else is probably 2 - 3 games. Maybe.

 

If you bring Tyrod back at that salary, it can't be for one or two years. He'd be the most expensive bridge QB in history. It's got to be that you're committing to him. IMHO that just doesn't make sense.

You would think wouldn't you Thurman? I'm still not understanding really how $40m for 2 years for a bridge QB is anything other than foolish. And before people say "it's not $40m for 2 years..." okay well the alternative is $30m for one year. And that is all despite my gut saying "don't make yourself intentionally worse at Quarterback."

 

Now the people who think Tyrod is better than a bridge I have respect for that view. I don't agree with it necessarily but I see it.

 

The people who don't think he is better than a low end game manager and bridge Quarterback but still want to keep him in case the alternative is a couple of wins worse in 2017? Yea I don't understand them at all.

[CommonCents]

Jay Ayaji agrees. The defense is stacked.

[Jauronimo]

That makes sense. I just believe that with the number one pick teams miss out a lot. The NFL draft is supposed to create parody. It doesn't really work that way all the time. More often than not the same bottom feeder teams are the top of the draft board. The great franchises remain great with late round picks. That's why I'm not ever going to blame this playoff drought on poor draft position.

It did in Cleveland.

[White Linen]

Jay Ayaji agrees. The defense is stacked.

 

We should have drafted him even though he's not in the NFL.

[PromoTheRobot]

I really don't get the tank talk. This isn't the NHL where one guy can make that much of a difference right away.

You can't believe anything you read about the Bills plans moving forward.

[FireChan]

You would think wouldn't you Thurman? I'm still not understanding really how $40m for 2 years for a bridge QB is anything other than foolish. And before people say "it's not $40m for 2 years..." okay well the alternative is $30m for one year. And that is all despite my gut saying "don't make yourself intentionally worse at Quarterback."

Now the people who think Tyrod is better than a bridge I have respect for that view. I don't agree with it necessarily but I see it.

The people who don't think he is better than a low end game manager and bridge Quarterback but still want to keep him in case the alternative is a couple of wins worse in 2017? Yea I don't understand them at all.

Some folks love, and I do mean love, 7-9, 8-8.

[CommonCents]

 

We should have drafted him even though he's not in the NFL.

Was running by me so fast I couldn't make out the name on the jersey. He would have been a good pick but I think the knee issues dropped him a bit.

[Augie]

This thread makes zero logical sense.

 

If "the Bills" intentionally tank... The Pegulas are included in "the Bills", that means they would be on-board with the strategy and expect to lose, and Doug and McDermott would get a pass.

 

Ah, the offseason. This is gonna be a long one.

BUT, what if we try to tank, and accidentally win the Super Bowl? We'd have to fire him then for sure, right?

[jeffismagic]

BUT, what if we try to tank, and accidentally win the Super Bowl? We'd have to fire him then for sure, right?

 

Hey, that would work for me! I really think as a Bills fan I trust blind luck more than the strategy coming from One Bills Drive to get us out of this mess.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

And where did it Say Whaley has control over the Gameday Roster

People really.

 

EJ Gone

Taylor - likely want back but on a different contract

 

So Cardale starting stuff is LEVERAGE and keeping the possible well Bills are taking a QB immediately stuff tampered a little.

 

What you want Whaley to think.

 

Well Cardale sucks so lets put that leak out there so Taylor keeps all leverage.

 

Comeon people

 

This and everyone's assuming we draft someone at 10 if taylor walks. Possibly a smokescreen....

[klos63]

I really don't get the tank talk. This isn't the NHL where one guy can make that much of a difference right away.

It's stupid talk. You've got 4-5 years to build a solid 53 man roster if you tank. Look how long it's taken the Sabres and they're still a ways away with a 20 man roster.

[Jauronimo]

 

We should have drafted him even though he's not in the NFL.

Ajayi retired?

[Dragonborn10]

If the Bills tank, Whaley probably has more time, otherwise why would he tank?

Kirby, you are always the voice of reason. You should get your own thread. We sometimes disagree but you are respectful in your opinions and consider other opinions/thoughts.

[TANK2]

Start Cardale. Tank guaranteed.

[Hardcore Bills Fan]

 

I can guarantee you that you're wrong.

 

Trading Dareus causes the team to take a $33M cap hit...do people really STILL not understand how the cap works?

unreal that your so concerned in bashing me you dont know how to read and example, lol

[TANK2]

Some folks love, and I do mean love, 7-9, 8-8.

Theyve been loving it for 17 years. Why would they change now?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I'm on board with this. The defense is to stacked to be doing a tank with Cardale starting, if this is his guy.

 

DW is a waste of GM imo.

 

Just say no to the tank.

 

perfect, I can get rid of Whaley and get my QB, sweet, Tank on!!

I really don't get the tank talk. This isn't the NHL where one guy can make that much of a difference right away.

 

One guy can when its a franchise QB

[ALF]

I can't see going thru a Brown's type tank, just too painful.

 

Just keep looking for a QB without trading up . There must be another Dak, Kirk and Carr out there.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

This is a perfect yr for a reload/Semi Tank. The schedule is brutal facing the NFC SOUTH & AFC WEST even if we are all in this offseason with the lack of salary space and draft pks I can't see the Bills winning more then 6gms. We can easily go 2-4 in East, 2-6 against the west & south and split against the Colts and Bengals. We ain't going to the playoffs next yr. This gives us a chance to cut salary and build in the image of McDermott vision of this team.

 

With that being said we can trade/Cut the fat on this team. Let all big free agents go Woods, Lorex, Gilmore and Zack hopefully these loses net us a few high comp pks next yr. I'm thinking a 3rd , 4th and 5th at least. Don't make any signings that can effect the comp formula.

 

I would also try to trade both Incog and Wood if I can get mid rd pks for them trade them if not keep them. Resign both Groy and Kujo to extensions. With Cordy,Cujo,Miller and Groy u have a young nucleus for a good Oline. I would also trade McCoy and Tyrod for multiple pks.

 

On the defensive side of the ball keep your D line intact with exception of Kyle trade him for mid rder. Draft heavily on the bk 7. With all the pks we will compile we should find some young studs to fill out those spots at LB and Secondary.

 

The Bills have built the team the wrong way from day one. We are close to the cap and have nothing to show for it. We need to get our cap in order while developing young talent. It's time to set our sights on the 20's since the teens haven't been good for us. Time to get ready to be in position to take over the East when Brady retires. This organization needs a vision of the future not a bandaid for today..

[4merper4mer]

I really don't get the tank talk. This isn't the NHL where one guy can make that much of a difference right away.

 

If by right away you mean 8 years to squeak into the 8 seed then you are right. Otherwise you must be Tim Murray.

[mead107]

No tanking will take place. God, you can tell this is the off season.

[GunnerBill]

This is a perfect yr for a reload/Semi Tank. The schedule is brutal facing the NFC SOUTH & AFC WEST even if we are all in this offseason with the lack of salary space and draft pks I can't see the Bills winning more then 6gms. We can easily go 2-4 in East, 2-6 against the west & south and split against the Colts and Bengals. We ain't going to the playoffs next yr. This gives us a chance to cut salary and build in the image of McDermott vision of this team.

 

With that being said we can trade/Cut the fat on this team. Let all big free agents go Woods, Lorex, Gilmore and Zack hopefully these loses net us a few high comp pks next yr. I'm thinking a 3rd , 4th and 5th at least. Don't make any signings that can effect the comp formula.

 

I would also try to trade both Incog and Wood if I can get mid rd pks for them trade them if not keep them. Resign both Groy and Kujo to extensions. With Cordy,Cujo,Miller and Groy u have a young nucleus for a good Oline. I would also trade McCoy and Tyrod for multiple pks.

 

On the defensive side of the ball keep your D line intact with exception of Kyle trade him for mid rder. Draft heavily on the bk 7. With all the pks we will compile we should find some young studs to fill out those spots at LB and Secondary.

 

The Bills have built the team the wrong way from day one. We are close to the cap and have nothing to show for it. We need to get our cap in order while developing young talent. It's time to set our sights on the 20's since the teens haven't been good for us. Time to get ready to be in position to take over the East when Brady retires. This organization needs a vision of the future not a bandaid for today..

 

Don't think Kyle is a trade option. If he gets the sense they don't want him back in Buffalo he will retire. Also just do not see trading Tyrod as an option. Who is going to take him on knowing that they have the option hanging around their neck? Only a team who believes he can be the answer.... not a short term option.... the answer. I don't see one, so I think you have to release him.

 

On the rest.... there is an argument for not taking up any of our UFAs and try and fill the spots with short term deals for guys that are cut (thereby don't affect the comp pick formula). There is also an argument for trading Shady.... I think he'd still have value but you are talking a 3rd absolute maximum, more likely a 4th or 5th rounder. I see no trade market at all for Incognito or Wood. I don't know why you would trade them anyway..... trading them is a tank. They don't do any longer term disservice to your cap position beyond this year so you keep them on the team.

 

Just thinking about what that plan leaves you with pre-draft:

 

LT: Kujo

LG: Cog

C: Wood / Groy

RG: Miller

RT: Glenn

 

RB: Gillislee

FB: ?

TE: Clay

 

WR1: Watkins

WR2: Listenbee

WR3: ?

 

QB: Jones

-----------------------

 

DE: Lawson

DT: Dareus

DT: Williams

DE: Hughes

 

SLB: Ragland

MLB: P.Brown

WLB: ?

 

CB1: Darby

CB2: Seymour

CBN: Robey-Coleman

 

S: Graham

S: Williams (?)

Edited February 16, 2017 by GunnerBill

[NastyNateSoldiers]

 

Don't think Kyle is a trade option. If he gets the sense they don't want him back in Buffalo he will retire. Also just do not see trading Tyrod as an option. Who is going to take him on knowing that they have the option hanging around their neck? Only a team who believes he can be the answer.... not a short term option.... the answer. I don't see one, so I think you have to release him.

 

On the rest.... there is an argument for not taking up any of our UFAs and try and fill the spots with short term deals for guys that are cut (thereby don't affect the comp pick formula). There is also an argument for trading Shady.... I think he'd still have value but you are talking a 3rd absolute maximum, more likely a 4th or 5th rounder. I see no trade market at all for Incognito or Wood. I don't know why you would trade them anyway..... trading them is a tank. They don't do any longer term disservice to your cap position beyond this year so you keep them on the team.

 

Just thinking about what that plan leaves you with pre-draft:

 

LT: Kujo

LG: Cog

C: Wood / Groy

RG: Miller

RT: Glenn

 

RB: Gillislee

FB: ?

TE: Clay

 

WR1: Watkins

WR2: Listenbee

WR3: ?

 

QB: Jones

-----------------------

 

DE: Lawson

DT: Dareus

DT: Williams

DE: Hughes

 

SLB: Ragland

MLB: P.Brown

WLB: ?

 

CB1: Darby

CB2: Seymour

CBN: Robey-Coleman

 

S: Graham

S: Williams (?)

Kyle might want to go to a team ready to win right away we can get a 4th for him easily. As far as Tyrod is concerned his deal isn't bad and there is plenty of teams that might just want to cut out the competition and give up a 3rd for him. Cory Graham should be cut also but might be a good veteran to keep around to teach the young guys.

 

Basically the schedule is already tough enough I would draft Mahomes in 2nd rd and make him compete against C Jones for the Job. Throw him in the ocean and see if he can swim.

We need to rebuild this team. Who are we protecting here? We are against the cap with no franchise caliber players. That's a big problem I can't see why not alot of people see it this way here

Btw we fill out our roster with best available players in draft plus with the holes we have we can get some good undrafted players to sign with us. McDermott has a reputation for developing defensive players let him help pk his guys. Bring in some character guys that play hard and work hard.

[GunnerBill]

Kyle might want to go to a team ready to win right away we can get a 4th for him easily. As far as Tyrod is concerned his deal isn't bad and there is plenty of teams that might just want to cut out the competition and give up a 3rd for him. Cory Graham should be cut also but might be a good veteran to keep around to teach the young guys.

 

Basically the schedule is already tough enough I would draft Mahomes in 2nd rd and make him compete against C Jones for the Job. Throw him in the ocean and see if he can swim.

We need to rebuild this team. Who are we protecting here? We are against the cap with no franchise caliber players. That's a big problem I can't see why not alot of people see it this way here

 

If you think you are getting a 4th for Kyle Williams you are mad. A 33 year old defensive tackle on a 1 year $6.3m deal (cos the Bills would have to eat the signing bonus).... nobody is giving up anything for that. If you were really lucky a team might chuck a 7th your way (maybe someone who gets a 7th round comp pick) but more likely anyone interested just waits for you to release him. I repeat as well that I don't think Kyle wants to start anew in a different city at his age. If he doesn't play in Buffalo next year my guess is he doesn't play at all.

 

I'd love to think that Tyrod Taylor is worth a 3rd round pick.... but with the way the current deal is structured I don't see who goes there. Maybe San Fran?? Possibly... they are so far away that they could take up the option and say "we will ride with Tyrod for two years while we rebuild he is an upgrade on what we have and then when we are ready to compete in 2019 we will move on." I don't know if Shanahan would have an interest but beyond them I can't think of anyone.

 

I'm not protecting anybody, I am trying to live in the world of reality where in the NFL veteran players do not have great trade value and the majority of trades are for 5th round picks or lower and are often swapping picks (we will give you player x and a 6th for your 5th).

 

As for no franchise players.... I disagree. We definitely have a franchise left tackle. Cordy Glenn may even be at the stage where he is underrated on this board. We have a franchise player in Dareus (albeit a totally unreliable personality) and we have for me a franchise type corner that your strategy wants to let go and a franchise receiver about to go into his 4th year. Those are 4 of the top 5 players on this team in my opinion (Shady being the other).

 

And I am not saying you are mad for wanting to let Gilmore walk. I can see the logic to your position that you don't spend capital trying to keep the UFAs this year and you use it as a mini-reset. It just isn't the NHL here.... you can't get to teams to throw picks at you as you dump old experienced assets. If you want an example go look at Evan Mathis a couple of years ago. Was still a top guard in the NFL but getting up there in age and Philly wanted his $$s off the books. They hawked him about for a trade and nobody bit. Your decision with those guys is keep them or release them - and you only release them if that brings you some benefit.

Edited February 16, 2017 by GunnerBill